Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Thoughts on death penalty

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    • 409 posts
    April 17, 2018 6:42 AM PDT

    Since I already posted this 3 years ago in one of the threads Bazgrim linked, I'll just repost this year's update:

    Combo of EQ1 and Anarchy Online. I'll use Anarchy Online's contribution first because it will make the EQ1 part more understandable.

    Anarchy Online - All exp earned since last "save" goes poof and gets added to your lost exp pool. While you have exp in your exp pool, you gain exp 30% faster via killing and quest rewards. Saves happen automatically at every new level (autosave, no deleveling) and/or when you find an insurance terminal and pay the fee. The insurance terminal then becomes your bind point as well. In a fantasy game, I'd envision it as some relic you place an offering at, or a bind caster in some town you pay a fee to, or a monument you kneel at, etc. Pay some fee, and your exp is locked at that level as a minimum, and all deaths return you to that exp point and physical location, with all lost exp going to the exp pool.

    EQ1 - Now that we have no more deleveling and more available bind/save points, death functions exactly like it used to. Your corpse has your stuff and is on a one week timer. You can find players to summon/drag for you, you can pay an NPC some godawful amount to bring your corpse to you (current PoK mechanic), veteran reward let's you summon/rezz all corpses once per week, and then you can pay/haggle for rezzes to replace lost XP or reduce what goes to the exp pool. If you get rezzed at your deathy spot, like ina dungeon crawl or raid, then you just pop up with all your stuff as if you looted your corpse and equipped.

    And all buffs/food effects/potions/etc are gone, unless you found the uber "lasts through death" recipes or whatever, which would make for a fine way to include tradeskill grinds and make them worthwhile.

    Basically, EQ1 without deleveling and adding the AO exp pool mechanic.

    • 483 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:34 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I am holding out hope that losing levels will be in play.  We need it in order for death to matter at max level.

    Yup, if there's no deleveling at max level you'll just stop caring about farming XP and the XP farming part of the game "dies"/becomes irrelevant.

    Another option is making it so you only delevel at max level, so if max level is 50, you can delevel to 49 and at 0% exp of lvl 49 you start getting xp debt.

    • 483 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:45 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    "Think outside the box" they say. How about adding a gameplay element like soul bound gear. Some gear that may not be as good as what you normally would wear, but would stay with your soul and respawn with you?

    Adds more metagaming when you have to decide if having an item respawn with you is more important than better gear. Plus, you can always keep backup gear in your bank to equip on CRs.

    I had a similar idea, mine revolves around a debuff or something similar that’s applied to your gear when you die, the debuff makes your gear useless in all other zones except for the one you died in. Basically your gear is "soul Bound" to the zone you died in.

    (Example: if you die in Amberfaet your gear will only work inside Amberfaet)

    If you want to remove this debuff/effect from your gear you need to retrive your corpse.

    With this system corpse runs are mandatory, getting back to your corpse is still a challenge and since you’re not naked when doing the corpse run it gives the devs a chance to create harder more challenging dungeons designed with full gear corpse runs in mind.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at April 17, 2018 8:46 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:48 AM PDT

    The basic concept here is that death matters. Dying should hurt. Not punitively or we won't want to explore or do non-trivial content, but enough so that we will want to think before jumping into something.

    I simply don't see a logical reason why levels should be sacred, with two exceptions. Death should hurt as much at the start of a level as in the middle.

    One exception is a group you are already in, where losing a level may make it difficult or impossible to continue, disrupting the entire group not just yourself. One solution is to defer loss of level until the group disbands or leaves the dungeon. 

    The other exception is at low levels where I think not just levels but xp in general should be sacred. The concept of having no death penalty at all until a certain level makes sense. But a *low* level such as 5 or 10.

     

    • 139 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:55 AM PDT

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

    • 1479 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:57 AM PDT

    I like the AO terminal analogy Venjenz, with not shrines where you just light a candle and pray, bestowing your faith in this particular place.

    • 793 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:11 AM PDT

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

     

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

     

    • 752 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:13 AM PDT

    It would be interesting to see high end gear become soulbound. That would be the ultimate gear in my opinion. Doesnt even have to have amazing stats.

    • 139 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:18 AM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

     

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

     

     

    I think the opposite is true. Loads of newer survival games cause you to lose everything at the start. It's fun rerolling a character in conan exiles and seeing if you can get a better start. Same with minecraft. It's a challenge and it's fun. If the starter zones are social and fun players won't care. Imo they would enjoy the challenge. 

    • 5 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:24 AM PDT

    For the last few years, I’ve been playing Rift, which has absolutely no penalty for death if you are a patron (monthly subscriber). If you are not a patron, there is a small currency fee. If a raid loses one or two key people, the raid leader calls for a wipe, everyone dies on purpose, you respawn and jump in a portal that takes you to where you wiped. Pucker factor is an unused term. Nekkid corpse runs in PoF were exciting. Having a couple of corpse retrieval specialist, usually monks or bards, on your friends list was always helpful. More than once, I logged out to play an alt, to wait for another guilds raid time, so that we could follow them into a zone. Part of getting ready for a raid was making sure you had enough xp into a level, that if you died a couple times, you wouldn’t lose the level.  Especially if it had crucial skills. Leveling was hard, and took a lot of time. I miss these days, and it’s a huge part of why I’m excited about Pantheon. I do think it’s going to keep away a lot of players that want everything handed to them, and that’s a good thing.

    I think xp debt is a good idea, but only to a certain point. If it gets beyond a certain point, I think level loss is appropriate.  

    • 21 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:32 AM PDT

    Corpse Runs in EQ was part of the adventure.   

    It made death have meaning that no EXP penalty could ever do but put them together and they make a powerful motivator not to die.  

    Now back in my EQ days, I remember the group dying, all popping back at the bank and my wife who was playing a Magician would summon up some temp armor for those that needed it.   I had 2 bags full of CR gear in the bank which was just older quested armor that I out leveled (Armor of Ro on my Paladin)  which made it great for CR runs, also kept a few back up weapons for those times when we needed to fight our way back to our corpses.   

    Sometimes another group would come across your corpses and offer to rez your cleric back in and would stay long enough to get your group back up and going.   Other times a call would go out over guild chat that one of your members needs help with CR.    Or you would be exploring a dungeon and come a cross a group that was in trouble and they would yell for help, make it to them to save a few of their members then rez the others back so they can continue with their adventures.  

    Later on they added a spell to the Necromancer line up to summon corpse so your local friendly necromancer could just zone in, summon your corpse to the zone line, grab a rez and your back in business but even those could be hard to come by since it was an high level spell that was later added to the game which would consumes a regent to summon your corpse so at the higher levels you carried a few different types of regents around for certain spells....

    Corpse runs actually builds a better community IMO People are willing to help others other due to you never know who you help today might be helping you tomorrow......

     


    This post was edited by Krugus at April 17, 2018 9:35 AM PDT
    • 752 posts
    April 17, 2018 11:59 AM PDT

    I felt like helping on a corpse run was the most fun, it made you utilize non-ideal armor/weapons, made you think about what you might carry into battle or save for a CR. I just loved the whole thing about CR except the actual having a corpse and it could rot. I didn't like having a corpse rot. But i did deal with it a time or two. And without the fear of it disappearing you wouldn't rush to get it. Nowadays i don't even bother getting old corpses on eq1. even if i lose exp it doesnt matter anymore because i have my gear. Most people use it as a bind port tool when done for the night.

    So.... that is why i am reviving my monk character as my first character so that i can be helpful with corpse runs. Probably do a rogue secondary to help after i learn how mobs feel about rogue invis. SOS for rogue was extremely OP. I hope they keep us guessing on if something see's rogue invis or not. Keeps the pucker factor alive. 

    • 409 posts
    April 17, 2018 12:20 PM PDT

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

    Hardcore. I like where your head's at.

    MMOs have lost their pucker factor, and a properly severe death penalty is the only way to get it back. Dungeons and raid zones should scare the buhjeezus out of you just because those lost levels lurk around every crner, in every bugged chain aggro and bizarre pathing, etc. Make MMOs scary again, I say!

    Fulton said:

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

    It would only keep away sissies. The hardcore would dig it.


    This post was edited by Venjenz at April 17, 2018 12:23 PM PDT
    • 313 posts
    April 17, 2018 12:27 PM PDT

    zewtastic said:

    zoltar said:

    philo said: Naked corpse runs are in game. You will have to retrieve your gear.

     

    Maybe so, but the game's in alpha and they haven't finalized the death penalty.  

    If you had played the last two MMO's these guys made, you would know better than to keep up that litany. Welcome to corpse runs. But have joy in the fact they build character, as you seem to be lacking. :)

     

    WTF.

    Anyway, I like the idea of having your items decay in a non-repairable way when you die.  At max level, this becomes more painful which balances out the fact without de-leveling, experience loss is no longer relevant.  Having items become broken after a certain number of deaths would also be healthy for the game in general IMO.  

     

    If people still want corpse-runs as a mechanic, maybe recovering your coprse would give you some of the experience you lost back and have a small chance of repairing the item decay your items experienced.  But losing all your items if you don't recover your corpse is too binary of an outcome.  Most of the time you recover your corpse and there's really no big death penalty.  It makes the death penalty more about wasting your time, and I'm not a fan of that.  

    • 752 posts
    April 17, 2018 12:50 PM PDT

    I think i could deal with an item decay system. Although having the no rent items decay on death is a work around. Are they going to allow us to zone with no rent items? Sometimes i like to head back to town to show off before i camp. Or go play in another dungeon after grabbing an easier to get item.

    Quick kill on mob A to grab weapon and armor before heading out to advanced dungeon can keep old zones populated with people?


    This post was edited by kreed99 at April 17, 2018 12:53 PM PDT
    • 613 posts
    April 17, 2018 1:12 PM PDT

    kreed99 said:

    I think i could deal with an item decay system. Although having the no rent items decay on death is a work around. Are they going to allow us to zone with no rent items? Sometimes i like to head back to town to show off before i camp. Or go play in another dungeon after grabbing an easier to get item.

    Quick kill on mob A to grab weapon and armor before heading out to advanced dungeon can keep old zones populated with people?

     

    I am wondering if there should be both item and corpse decay.  As stated death in the game should mean something.  Actions have consequences and it should be an event you don’t want happening. 

     

    Just a thought but it would keep that pucker factor rather high…lol

     

    Ox

    • 793 posts
    April 17, 2018 1:36 PM PDT

    Venjenz said:

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

    Hardcore. I like where your head's at.

    MMOs have lost their pucker factor, and a properly severe death penalty is the only way to get it back. Dungeons and raid zones should scare the buhjeezus out of you just because those lost levels lurk around every crner, in every bugged chain aggro and bizarre pathing, etc. Make MMOs scary again, I say!

    Fulton said:

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

    It would only keep away sissies. The hardcore would dig it.

     

    Except the "Hardcore" don't make up the majority of gamers. If you know going in that these are the rules, that is one thing, it's a whole other animal when it comes unexpected, especially in a game where it is expected to take time and effort to reach any significant acheivements. If we can get to level 10 in less than an hour, I'd be surprised and a disappointed.

    • 613 posts
    April 17, 2018 2:10 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Venjenz said:

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

    Hardcore. I like where your head's at.

    MMOs have lost their pucker factor, and a properly severe death penalty is the only way to get it back. Dungeons and raid zones should scare the buhjeezus out of you just because those lost levels lurk around every crner, in every bugged chain aggro and bizarre pathing, etc. Make MMOs scary again, I say!

    Fulton said:

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

    It would only keep away sissies. The hardcore would dig it.

     

    Except the "Hardcore" don't make up the majority of gamers. If you know going in that these are the rules, that is one thing, it's a whole other animal when it comes unexpected, especially in a game where it is expected to take time and effort to reach any significant acheivements. If we can get to level 10 in less than an hour, I'd be surprised and a disappointed.

     

    Oh I can tell you disappointed is not the word I would be using but I don’t want to pop up on Kilsin’s radar….8) 

     

    In the event that does become a reality a stern letter to Brad may be required. 

     

    Ox

    • 12 posts
    April 17, 2018 2:12 PM PDT

    My thoughts is a 10 - 20 % of a level death penalty for death .

    Retreval with no rez you gain 5 % of level back.If rezed you recieve more depending on the nature of rez up to full.

    24 hour timer for retrieval at witch time corpse respons at a temple in starting city to retrieve items and take full death pentalty

    • 3237 posts
    April 17, 2018 2:15 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    Venjenz said:

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

    Hardcore. I like where your head's at.

    MMOs have lost their pucker factor, and a properly severe death penalty is the only way to get it back. Dungeons and raid zones should scare the buhjeezus out of you just because those lost levels lurk around every crner, in every bugged chain aggro and bizarre pathing, etc. Make MMOs scary again, I say!

    Fulton said:

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

    It would only keep away sissies. The hardcore would dig it.

     

    Except the "Hardcore" don't make up the majority of gamers. If you know going in that these are the rules, that is one thing, it's a whole other animal when it comes unexpected, especially in a game where it is expected to take time and effort to reach any significant acheivements. If we can get to level 10 in less than an hour, I'd be surprised and a disappointed.

    Pantheon is being designed as a hardcore game.  If that doesn't sit well with the majority of gamers, so be it.  I think a lot of people will enjoy this style when they get to experience it ... it's not like there has been an oldschool hardcore MMO to play for quite some time.  It will be a brand new experience for a lot of players, and hopefully one that will resonate.

    • 25 posts
    April 17, 2018 2:17 PM PDT

    I have played EQ1, p99 and a current EQ progression server as a rogue.  What struck me when I learned the new death mechanic on the EQ TLP (you have your gear when you spawn after you die), my first thought was - well there goes a big chunk of my usefulness as a rogue.  I was super valued to help CR bodies from tricky places.  Some of my best memories are successful corpse runs because A) my hide/sneak was superior to invis B) even those that saw through me, I could sneak behind them and they wouldn't hear me.  Some of my most heart pounding memories are dragging a corpse behind a see-invis mob, including Innoruk in the Plate of Hate! 

    Making you have to retrieve your gear adds a huge amount of complexity.  It makes certain classes more useful (above rogue example or the necromancer summon corpse spell).  As stated above, it also builds the community.  Someone said that other groups would help CR if you wiped, because they KNEW how important it was to get your body back.  This was 100% spot on.

    You should have to retrieve your items from your corpse, but there must be some mechanism to get it back if the area is truly too dangerous.  You want people to be scared of death, but you don't want very challenging areas to go unexplored because people know they will never get their body back.

    • 793 posts
    April 17, 2018 3:41 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Fulton said:

    Venjenz said:

    Doford said:

    I would go the other way an make deleveling really harsh at the start. Die at level 5 you go back to 1, die at level 10, you go back to level 4. As players level they see a noticable difference in the harshness of death as they wouldn't lose so many levels. The sooner players start playing sensibly the better.

    Hardcore. I like where your head's at.

    MMOs have lost their pucker factor, and a properly severe death penalty is the only way to get it back. Dungeons and raid zones should scare the buhjeezus out of you just because those lost levels lurk around every crner, in every bugged chain aggro and bizarre pathing, etc. Make MMOs scary again, I say!

    Fulton said:

     That would be a good way to keep away new players. As a newb, you die alot, not always the fault of your own. Then I look and see I just lost 5 levels, I'd rage quit and say this game sucks.

    It would only keep away sissies. The hardcore would dig it.

     

    Except the "Hardcore" don't make up the majority of gamers. If you know going in that these are the rules, that is one thing, it's a whole other animal when it comes unexpected, especially in a game where it is expected to take time and effort to reach any significant acheivements. If we can get to level 10 in less than an hour, I'd be surprised and a disappointed.

    Pantheon is being designed as a hardcore game.  If that doesn't sit well with the majority of gamers, so be it.  I think a lot of people will enjoy this style when they get to experience it ... it's not like there has been an oldschool hardcore MMO to play for quite some time.  It will be a brand new experience for a lot of players, and hopefully one that will resonate.

     

    Not sure you read that whole conversation, cause "hardcore" and "old-school" are not synonymous in these responses. Newbies losing 5 levels on death is a little extreme and going to make it hard to gain subscribers.

    Most players I think will be fine with an old school EQ type game, and that entails a death penalty that hurts. Especially once they get into the game and experience the community, cause ultimately, that is what drove those old school games. We all got to know each other on a deeper level because we needed each other to survive the world.

     

     

    • 3237 posts
    April 17, 2018 3:45 PM PDT

    @Fulton  --  I read the conversation.  Either way, Pantheon has been identified as a "hardcore" game.  Brad has said this countless times during interviews.  I suppose the word is subjective and could have a different meaning depending on the person but at the end of the day, Pantheon is a game that is being made for the hardcore crowd, not the other way around.  That doesn't mean there is going to be an insane death penalty or anything like that.  I think VR is looking to strike a balance.  But it's also been stated that in order for Pantheon to succeed, the community is going to need to assist with onboarding.  This is because Pantheon is likely to be a bit more hardcore than most people are used to.  We'll need our veterans to step in and make sure that people are able to have fun and don't get overly frustrated when they become challenged or have to actually put in work towards achieving anything meaningful.  Again, I understand that the word hardcore is subjective.  But if we could only apply one word to how Pantheon is being designed, and we had to choose between hardcore and casual, hardcore wins.  That message has always been clear as long as I have been following the game.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 17, 2018 3:49 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    April 17, 2018 4:52 PM PDT

    Challenging is the word I'd use over hardcore. Personally I find the hardcore/casual paradigm offputting and an ineffective way to rouse the interest of others due to the constant negativity associated with both words. 

    • 12 posts
    April 17, 2018 5:18 PM PDT

    I remember that the very first thing I ever saw in EQ was a CR.  No joke.  I logged in for the 1st time, made my 1st character in Surefall Glade and first thing I saw was a couple palyers dragging corpses to someone there.  I was really confused because it was such a strange site, but it did make a lasting impression in which the CR, in my mind, is iconinc with EQ - and ultimately has become easily the highest ensuring factor of what 'hardcore' means in a game - at least to me ...

    So - my 2 cents here - I'd like to see these in Pantheon:

    1. Exp loss (including level loss)

    2. Gear retrieval required

    Levels and gear will be most precious under these circumstances.  Cherished and protected all the more.  Players will me more cautions and strategic.  I learned to make careful plans and communicate with others to a degree I don't think I otherwise would have without some pretty serious rigor.  It also had a way of making the world seem a bigger, more dangeous and adventurous place - a real jungle out there, for which I truly needed friends and allies to survive and to delve.  To me, even though these are implemented mechanic systems which would never happen in a 'real fantasy world' (hoping that kinda makes sense to some), ultimately, they were THE traits of the game that made the IMMERSION for me.

     

    On the other hand ... CR's take time.  And when it happens unexpectedly at the end of your time set aside to play, it sucks when suddenly you're faced with this big undertaking, but in 5 minutes you will HAVE to be logged out or your RL word will start to fall apart.  I believe Brad mentioned that this game should still be approachable for the people who have more responsibilities than they did back in the day.  To that end, I feel there should be some mechanic (though with modified penaly) for getting your gear back later.  I've seen some good ideas already in this thread toward that idea.  Many of them I think would work.  

    Here's one too:  

    - 0-24 hrs: (or 48 or 72?) You can ONLY recover gear with a CR (including summons if there are classes that have that ability)

    - After that time frame, your corpse could be summoned to a temple and your gear (corporately or peice -by piece?) redeemed for a price (Pay in gold?  Pay in more exp for epic items? Just thoughts).  After all, if you skipped the CR and finagled a high level summoner of corpses to help you out, you'd probably be dropping a pretty nice tip, (or even made arrangements for remuneration of her/his time already) Because this option is only available AFTER 24 (or perhaps more) hours, these classes will still be needed if you want to use your good gear any time soon.