Personally I'm not a fan of dropping items on your corpse that you need to retrieve. It's not that I think it's too punishing, it's just a clunky mechanic in my opinion. I'm perfectly fine with dying causing permanent or difficult to repair damage to your items and giving a massive experience penalty including level loss.
Thoughts?
Like a whole lot of people in the community, I think death needs to matter. Whether that takes the form of corpse runs, or of exp loss with the potential to delevel doesn't matter all that much to me. I personally like corpse runs, but I've also played games that had exp loss as the major deterrent to death, and it works quite well (FFXI, for example).
This is probabaly something that is going to be experimented with and fleshed out in the testing phases. Whatever form it takes, I hope VR sticks to their vision of not trivializing death.
Make it as hard or punitive as you want, as long as there's no level loss for level-gated content and no gear loss. Those two things (level loss and gear loss) become CS nightmares, especially for any content that is level gated. (You must be level 50 to enter)
The CS burden is the #1 reason they were eliminated in subsequent games. Even EQ1 today doesn't have naked corpse runs or item loss any more.
Sure, you can try to say "too bad, paying customer, you just lost a years worth of effort due to ignorance" but in reality, that's not fiscally responsibly from a customer retention point of view.
vjek said:Make it as hard or punitive as you want, as long as there's no level loss for level-gated content and no gear loss. Those two things (level loss and gear loss) become CS nightmares, especially for any content that is level gated. (You must be level 50 to enter)
The CS burden is the #1 reason they were eliminated in subsequent games. Even EQ1 today doesn't have naked corpse runs or item loss any more.Sure, you can try to say "too bad, paying customer, you just lost a years worth of effort due to ignorance" but in reality, that's not fiscally responsibly from a customer retention point of view.
Good point. I've seen some games do experience debt instead of a decrease. Perhaps if you would de-level, that instead turns into debt.
oneADseven said:I am holding out hope that losing levels will be in play. We need it in order for death to matter at max level.
Yes, 1000% this. Once a player dings, those next few kills NEED te be precious.
I was eeriously let down when I heard they weren't set on that yet... kind of turned the whole `Death needs to matter` into `Death needs to technically matter sorta, but not really` (ie. Minor exp loss with no l8ss of level)
As for corpse run, absolutely, and it needs to be neckid. Brad has said he draws the line at Gear loss and on that I'll agree is probably going too far... but gear deprivation for at least several DAYS if somebody refused or couldent get back and get there corpse is what i would like to see. People could have a spare set in the bank (the last stuff they replaced) they could use in the mean time. If they lost that twovwell tgey could maybe mentor or buff noobs or something.
I think FFXI hit a good sweet spot, personally. Maybe because I never played EQ1, so sue me. Losing experience is a must and that is huge considering the amount of time you spent getting that experience. De-leveling is fine for me as well as I have experience with it in FFXI and frankly you shouldn't be taking on huge bosses if you're close to de-leveling and losing gear that you just equipped. Just my two cents.
I don't know that fishing your gear out sounds like fun. Now look, I appreciate it for what it is in that it makes the risk of death a lot scarier and I'll still play the game either way. I will admit I have no experience in this with not playing EQ1 before. I will also say I have a concern. If I only have 3-4 hours to play and I die 3 hours in, how do I fish out my stuff if I don't have time? Will it be there if I log out and log back in? I don't expect or want some mechanic for me to PAY to get it back, because that defeats the difficulty of it.
Is it possible getting your gear back can be a class-based skill? Is that a thing already in EQ1? I remember playing FFXI and I'd pay White Mages to port me to different places, something like that would be a nice go between and a social aspect of the game if another player could bring my stuff back for me. But it costs materials and materials cost gold etc etc. So you could offer your services.
zoltar said:philo said: Naked corpse runs are in game. You will have to retrieve your gear.
Maybe so, but the game's in alpha and they haven't finalized the death penalty.
If you had played the last two MMO's these guys made, you would know better than to keep up that litany. Welcome to corpse runs. But have joy in the fact they build character, as you seem to be lacking. :)
oneADseven said:I'm fine with debt up until max level. At that point you should lose levels because debt becomes irrelevant up until a week before the next expansion. EQ2 used debt and the penalty for death was trivialized for 99% of the lifespan of the game.
EQ2, a theme park ride, and not made by these guys, aside from the name that Sony used. Nothing in EQ2 will ever apply to a game these guys make.
@Zew -- The FAQ suggests that de-leveling isn't a part of the plan. I would prefer that de-leveling be possible throughout the entire game but if debt is indeed used, I would hope it goes away at max level because that is the exact point where it becomes meaningless for an extended period of time.
I see your point 187 and your reasoning makes sense, I still would like to see it at every level. If not then max level at the least.
How it could/would work to de-level is strictly up to the Devs. they can code it anyway they decide is best. But to keep the spells/skills from the higher level would take the sting out of it and imo defeat the purpose. If there going to let you keep your higher level pells then Debt is the way to go just as 187 spells out.
The corpse run/gear handling is also something they can code however they want to handle it. In early EQ1 you once you died you had a timer, I believe this was 72 real (not game) hours, to recover your corpse.. if not all items decayed and you lost them. This I agree was too harsh (you REALLY didn't want to die in a tough spot though). As in your "concern" Bardlebee {If I only have 3-4 hours to play and I die 3 hours in, how do I fish out my stuff if I don't have time? } yes, that happened quite often, and I missed many an hours sleep over that, staying up to retrieve the corpse, or getting back on the next day (you had three days) to retrieve it. On the up side I never once lost my corpse.. the server was always tight with helpful people be it the Plane of Fear, The Hole, or even early on in Dagnors Cauldron. somebody was always willing to help. The ONLY corps losses I ever saw was people that got mad and Rage Quit then didn't log back on for 4 days. (and to that I say they got what they deserved) I'm sure there were some, but I have no idea how. even the most dreaded early zone of them all FEAR had Raids every night and every guild I ever seen that went in there had a standard of starting there raid with corpse run. The next day I would come and chill neckid with the next guild going in, once they broke it they would Pull and rez all corpses in the zone if you were there. This was just part of their event. (Innoruuk server for the win)
But I will Concede, that's too harsh of a corps run penalty for this day and age! Brad has already confirmed there will be no gear loss (he could change his mind, but I doubt it and hope not) and I think that's a good decision, but I think it should still be harsh.
What I would like to see
Have 7 (real world) days to recover your corpse.
At that time the corpse decays and the items show up in your inventory in an otherwise unusable overflow where you have 7 more days to recover them. At the end of that 7 days they are forced into your inventory by value (most valuable first until there is no space) and what can not fit into your inventory is destroyed. (to keep people from abusing this and using it for extra storage space)
Of those first 7 days the Rez Value of the corpse deteriorates, if you get your corpse in the first day you get full benefit from the Rez you get. If you get it on the 4th day you get 50% of the rez benefit, last day there is no benefit to the rez. this would keep some value in getting your corpse as early as possible.
But if you REALLY couldn't get it, you could have a secondary set of gear stored in your bank you could use until the timer ran out.
The corpse run itself no matter how they do it is an important deal.. it IS player generated content, and the reward is GREAT. Beyond All your Gear, there is also Friend's, Favors, Player Reputation,
Zorkon said:I see your point 187 and your reasoning makes sense, I still would like to see it at every level. If not then max level at the least.
How it could/would work to de-level is strictly up to the Devs. they can code it anyway they decide is best. But to keep the spells/skills from the higher level would take the sting out of it and imo defeat the purpose. If there going to let you keep your higher level pells then Debt is the way to go just as 187 spells out.
The corpse run/gear handling is also something they can code however they want to handle it. In early EQ1 you once you died you had a timer, I believe this was 72 real (not game) hours, to recover your corpse.. if not all items decayed and you lost them. This I agree was too harsh (you REALLY didn't want to die in a tough spot though). As in your "concern" Bardlebee {If I only have 3-4 hours to play and I die 3 hours in, how do I fish out my stuff if I don't have time? } yes, that happened quite often, and I missed many an hours sleep over that, staying up to retrieve the corpse, or getting back on the next day (you had three days) to retrieve it. On the up side I never once lost my corpse.. the server was always tight with helpful people be it the Plane of Fear, The Hole, or even early on in Dagnors Cauldron. somebody was always willing to help. The ONLY corps losses I ever saw was people that got mad and Rage Quit then didn't log back on for 4 days. (and to that I say they got what they deserved) I'm sure there were some, but I have no idea how. even the most dreaded early zone of them all FEAR had Raids every night and every guild I ever seen that went in there had a standard of starting there raid with corpse run. The next day I would come and chill neckid with the next guild going in, once they broke it they would Pull and rez all corpses in the zone if you were there. This was just part of their event. (Innoruuk server for the win)
But I will Concede, that's too harsh of a corps run penalty for this day and age! Brad has already confirmed there will be no gear loss (he could change his mind, but I doubt it and hope not) and I think that's a good decision, but I think it should still be harsh.
What I would like to see
Have 7 (real world) days to recover your corpse.
At that time the corpse decays and the items show up in your inventory in an otherwise unusable overflow where you have 7 more days to recover them. At the end of that 7 days they are forced into your inventory by value (most valuable first until there is no space) and what can not fit into your inventory is destroyed. (to keep people from abusing this and using it for extra storage space)
Of those first 7 days the Rez Value of the corpse deteriorates, if you get your corpse in the first day you get full benefit from the Rez you get. If you get it on the 4th day you get 50% of the rez benefit, last day there is no benefit to the rez. this would keep some value in getting your corpse as early as possible.
But if you REALLY couldn't get it, you could have a secondary set of gear stored in your bank you could use until the timer ran out.
The corpse run itself no matter how they do it is an important deal.. it IS player generated content, and the reward is GREAT. Beyond All your Gear, there is also Friend's, Favors, Player Reputation,
I think the timer decayed during log in time only, and not while logged out. I remember an ingame friend of mine during early july, he had to leave for holidays and he didn't properly camp (shame, he was a rogue), by the worst luck possible he died from a train before beeing disconnected and I ended staring at his body during a week or so, until his body fully decayed.
Not to say, his next login after holidays was a blast...
Honestly I don't think we need corpse decay at all, but that's my opinion. Your body could remain X days in place and if you don't log back, it could just disappear and be tied to your account, reappearing at your next login. Of course it would probably mean some sort of troll/griefing with bodies on a distand alt, but I don't really get the "corpse rot concept" by itself. Corpse running can be already a mess, a big mess in some areas, that it's already a punishment.
Xp loss is fine, because if it's not, rezzes will loose a half of their value at max level, and mob grind will also loose any value there. I'm not a fan of a debt system because it was, as many concept, a easy solution for SoE to satisfy EQ1's frustrated player. They just lifted the big penalties as a "fix" and ended making their game way less immersive than the prequel was. As long as you are only locked away of your skills, and you don't loose them, it's fine.
Here is a concept I worked on awhile back that I feel would help ensure that death is meaningful at max level while still staying within a reasonable guideline as explained in the FAQ: http://www.fantheonmmo.com/topic/13-spiritual-conversion/
I am for either way , exp loss or debt.
The reason eq2 debt system made it trivial was two fold. The first time erased debt and you also got exp and paid off half the debt per kill. If this was removed , and your exp gain went towards debt with no gain, the system will be more then sufficient.
I do prefer exp lost though and have in game mechanics to get it back ie res but not a 96 % return ever ie cleric epic.
Krixus said:Bazgrim? C'mon dude. No excuses.
My excuse is that I was sleeping lol. Much to my dismay, I have not yet mastered the skill of posting while asleep... maybe some day :P Anyway, enjoy these threads:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2087/let-s-talk-death-penalty
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3116/the-fear-of-death
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2558/making-death-impactful
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3353/death-penalty-idea
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3817/the-case-against-the-death-penalty
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3819/a-clear-discussion-on-death-penalty
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5088/slow-progression-and-fear-of-death
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6183/death-penalty-level-loss
zoltar said:Personally I'm not a fan of dropping items on your corpse that you need to retrieve. It's not that I think it's too punishing, it's just a clunky mechanic in my opinion. I'm perfectly fine with dying causing permanent or difficult to repair damage to your items and giving a massive experience penalty including level loss.
Thoughts?
"Think outside the box" they say. How about adding a gameplay element like soul bound gear. Some gear that may not be as good as what you normally would wear, but would stay with your soul and respawn with you?
Adds more metagaming when you have to decide if having an item respawn with you is more important than better gear. Plus, you can always keep backup gear in your bank to equip on CRs.
Just speaking from personal experience in the old EQ days.
CR's were how I met many people, either by putting out a broadcast for help, or someone stumbled on my corpse and sending me a tell, or even just a PUG that had to do a CR. You learn alot about people during those CR runs.
That being said, one small thing that would be nice as far as corpses themselves go, would be some indicator that the player is online or not, such as a green "Fulton's Corpse" tag versus a greyed out one (Offline). This would make offering rez's and/or assitance a step or 2 simplier by already knowing that the person is online or not for you to offer your assitance.