No matter how good the content is in lower levels, some people may from time to time feel like they are missing out on the end game stuff - so they grind away, thinking about what will be instead of enjoying what is. That has been conditioned in players for decades. I don't know how to change that mindset. For those that do rush through, at least they can go back later and enjoy it with alts.
Agree that levels should take a while. i would even like "hell levels" although not as bad as Vanilla EQ. The amount of exps to level inceases with each level (in most games), but so does the exp rewards.
i would like exps per level to vary a little, maybe based on what skills/spells etc will be rewarded that lev. example: if you were going to be able to learn 3 spells then you'd need 50,000 exps, if you were going to be able to learn 4 spells that level, you'd need 57,000 exps ( made up numbers)
Side note: CanadaXegony wants Diplomacy (from Vanguard), WHY? Diplomacy sucked. it was a dumb "card game" inside an mmo... i thought it was the dumbest thing ever put in an MMO. (no offense)
i don't want a card game to decide if i get a quest from an NPC. i didn't "get" (understand) diplomacy at all. i would just click whatever until i got the desired results or i walked away...
Brad needs to ask himself: is this Fun. Does this make the game More Fun?
Naim said:Agree that levels should take a while. i would even like "hell levels" although not as bad as Vanilla EQ. The amount of exps to level inceases with each level (in most games), but so does the exp rewards.
i would like exps per level to vary a little, maybe based on what skills/spells etc will be rewarded that lev. example if you were going to be able to learn 3 spells yhen you'd need 50,000 (made up number) exps, if you wee going to be able to learn 4 spells that level, you'd need 57,000 exps ( made up numbers)
Side note: CanadaXegony wants Diplomacy (from Vanguard), WHY? Diplomacy sucked. it was a dumb "card game" inside an mmo... i thought it was the dumbest thing ever put in an MMO. (no offense)
i don't want a card game to decide if i get a quest from an NPC. i didn't "get" (understand) diplomacy at all. i would just click whatever until i got the desired results or i walked away...
Brad needs to ask himself: is this Fun. Does this make the game More Fun?
Some who "did get" diplomacy enjoyed it very much. It was a good tool to learn game lore as well as the town buffs and other things. To each their own. How about Perception..if you don't "get" that..will that be dumb too? Different strokes for different folks. :)
Cana
Some who "did get" diplomacy enjoyed it very much. It was a good tool to learn game lore as well as the town buffs and other things. To each their own. How about Perception..if you don't "get" that..will that be dumb too? Different strokes for different folks. :)
Cana
understanding a dumb card game vs quest leads are two different things. good to see what kind of "community" is going to be playing this game....
Retsof said:No matter how good the content is in lower levels, some people may from time to time feel like they are missing out on the end game stuff - so they grind away, thinking about what will be instead of enjoying what is. That has been conditioned in players for decades. I don't know how to change that mindset. For those that do rush through, at least they can go back later and enjoy it with alts.
A good means to lessen that issue is to do away with item levels, loot quality markers (greens/blues/purps), and to go back to having quality loot at all different levels of the game.
For example: In EQ there wasn't near the same loot grind as following MMOs. You weren't replacing all/most gear every 5 or even 10 levels, and higher level drops weren't guaranteed to be better. There were tons of quality loot drops all across the leveling journey, of course things were still more top heavy but there were some near (pre-raid) BiS items scattered about the spectrum and other just very solid drops that could last 15-20 levels. Spending time leveling inefficiently at camps of low blues or even spending time out camping hours trying to get a mob to spawn for an item you can use for months to come didn't feel like a waste, there was no "this is going to be useless in 5 levels anyway."
@Naim
Could you be more condescending? I really enjoyed diplomacy and hope to see it in Pantheon. It was a great form of horizontal progression and I am a huge fan of card games in an MMO. One thing that would improve it, IMO, is allowing player to player Diplomacy. I would also like to see card wagering. I'm sorry that you personally found it to be "the dumbest thing ever put in an MMO" -- but remember, Brad is building a world that will be full of players. Just because something doesn't appeal to you doesn't make it a dumb feature ... and the fact that someone else did enjoy it should speak volumes on what a "community" actually means. You know ... an entity that operates well beyond the scope of your personal preferences.
Iksar said:Retsof said:No matter how good the content is in lower levels, some people may from time to time feel like they are missing out on the end game stuff - so they grind away, thinking about what will be instead of enjoying what is. That has been conditioned in players for decades. I don't know how to change that mindset. For those that do rush through, at least they can go back later and enjoy it with alts.
A good means to lessen that issue is to do away with item levels, loot quality markers (greens/blues/purps), and to go back to having quality loot at all different levels of the game.
For example: In EQ there wasn't near the same loot grind as following MMOs. You weren't replacing all/most gear every 5 or even 10 levels, and higher level drops weren't guaranteed to be better. There were tons of quality loot drops all across the leveling journey, of course things were still more top heavy but there were some near (pre-raid) BiS items scattered about the spectrum and other just very solid drops that could last 15-20 levels. Spending time leveling inefficiently at camps of low blues or even spending time out camping hours trying to get a mob to spawn for an item you can use for months to come didn't feel like a waste, there was no "this is going to be useless in 5 levels anyway."
Those are some good ideas. I've always been a fan of clickies for that reason. I know it all comes down to the player but maybe the Dev team can help encourage it. Some of my favorite zones were lower tier and seeing them empty was frustrating. It felt like watching someone throw away good chocolate. Should be a crime :p
A note or two:
One
Leveling quests are typically just disguised grinding with some kind of added reward to act as a carrot for you to chase. i.e. it gets you focused on "questing" and not "grinding."
Two
There were different kinds of "grind" in EQ. You could simply be grinding for level. You could be grinding for faction. You could be camping for a spawn for a specific item (which, while not typically considered a grind was it's own sort of "grind").
The important thing here - is that these too were "masks" of a sort to what you were doing. They were goals you were seeking to attain and not quests you were seeking to finish.
Three
The distinction between items 1 and 2 is really that "leveling quests" - or even just "quests" in general these days are very transient. Do them, forget them, do the next one, then forget it too. And while you do them... you get your exp, or your faction, or your whatever. Take those quests away, and you have to have something to set as goals. Goals take longer - and end up as memorably good or memorably bad... but are never really "forgettable."
So for me - it comes down to that last bit... am I ok with a model that will always be memorable - either good or bad... or do I want a model that gives me a ton of forgettable content to keep me busy while masking that I am still achieving those goals.
My personal choice? Give me the memorable stuff.
Retsof said:No matter how good the content is in lower levels, some people may from time to time feel like they are missing out on the end game stuff - so they grind away, thinking about what will be instead of enjoying what is. That has been conditioned in players for decades. I don't know how to change that mindset. For those that do rush through, at least they can go back later and enjoy it with alts.
I wish this board had a Like becuase this comment deserves one.
Leveling quests *are* often disguised grinding, but the disguise makes it less ...painful .... for many of us.
People will grind to speed-level and miss a lot. Enjoying the content more leisurely with alts is good for many of us. Its why I am in the "alt friendly* camp on issues such as class specialization although I know that many players prefer to spend all their effort on having one "perfect" character.
Fulton said:IMO...Quests should not be a source advancement, they should be more about the lore, the item rewards and the initiative to promote adventuring to new regions.
XP, should come from kills, and xp in the quest should come from the killing you have to partake in to complete the quest. Quest xp, should never be more than a couple level equivelant kills.
The quest with the crying sister looked almost exactly like what you are talking about here. By that i mean the iniative to explore new areas
Just to throw my 2 cents in. I do agree the game should be more than trying to max out as soon as possible. that being said, half the fun of playing sometimes is competing with friends on who can become stronger faster. This is a less important aspect but one i think should still be in the game to a point. I fear there efforts to keep the game interesting at all levels might leave us feeling the same way at level 50 as we did at level 1
Iksar said:Retsof said:No matter how good the content is in lower levels, some people may from time to time feel like they are missing out on the end game stuff - so they grind away, thinking about what will be instead of enjoying what is. That has been conditioned in players for decades. I don't know how to change that mindset. For those that do rush through, at least they can go back later and enjoy it with alts.
A good means to lessen that issue is to do away with item levels, loot quality markers (greens/blues/purps), and to go back to having quality loot at all different levels of the game.
For example: In EQ there wasn't near the same loot grind as following MMOs. You weren't replacing all/most gear every 5 or even 10 levels, and higher level drops weren't guaranteed to be better. There were tons of quality loot drops all across the leveling journey, of course things were still more top heavy but there were some near (pre-raid) BiS items scattered about the spectrum and other just very solid drops that could last 15-20 levels. Spending time leveling inefficiently at camps of low blues or even spending time out camping hours trying to get a mob to spawn for an item you can use for months to come didn't feel like a waste, there was no "this is going to be useless in 5 levels anyway."
was there? I remember classic eq where you could reach almost max level without finding a +1 item. The level markers were fine for late game i think as it reduced the chances of terrible nerf mechanics. It sounds like something like recomended level is going to be built into Pantheons system.
as for loot quality i agree. Nothing is more annoying than me then getting the same item as someone else and it being worse even if i worked my ass off for it. Loot quality is really a stupid aspect of many games out there now (im not sure if UO did it but i kinda think they did). RNG systems are crap and should be burned in a fire
So for the grinding part, the motivation and rewards are mainly when you have a camp where an item of value can drop and you can grind for experience at the same time for the item. The issue with this too would be like trying to get a camp to get a Flowing Black Silk Sash (Perma haste buff item) from Lower Guk in EQ1. I'm sure people remember waiting in line to get a shot at that camp which was always camped 24/7. So, reading these other comments I was just thinking how everyone feels like the old "camp check" that we used to have to do. Still better than an empty server tho. Full server is better? or worse?
Squall said:was there? I remember classic eq where you could reach almost max level without finding a +1 item. The level markers were fine for late game i think as it reduced the chances of terrible nerf mechanics. It sounds like something like recomended level is going to be built into Pantheons system.
Was there what? Good items all across the leveling path? Yeah. Some really good drops/items players would often use until late/max levels started to be a lot more common from level 20+ but even before level 20 there were some stand out excellent drops. The biggest of which was Glowing Black Stone from the level 13 necro Pyzjn in Qeynos Hills which was IIRC a pre-raid BiS item for INT casters, then you had things like Runed Bone Fork (best in slot pre-raid ranged item for melee classes from a level 17 mob), Giants Reminder String (20), Braided Ivy Cords (18), Dragoon Dirk (pre-raid ranged BiS for most INT casters - level 20 mob), Polished Granite Tomahawk (level 17 mob - not amazing but a good weapon for warriors thanks to the proc generating good AoE aggro, replaced by Obsidian Shard at level 25), and of course the infamous Stein of Moggok which could be quested for as early as level 8 and used by any INT caster until max/raiding.
(Examples from vanilla EQ)
I think they should put in a limit on how much xp someone can get in a given day. Make the grind long so that power gamers and casuals do get some seperation, which is important for end game. However, I don't think we should see characters get to 50 in a week due to people doing a rotation and just power leveling and grinding. Max level should take 3-4 months of obtaining maximum xp per day, with casuals reaching max level in 6-8 months. If daily xp is limited, this would encourage more horizontal progression, crafting, and other pursuits.
Mathir said:I think they should put in a limit on how much xp someone can get in a given day. Make the grind long so that power gamers and casuals do get some seperation, which is important for end game. However, I don't think we should see characters get to 50 in a week due to people doing a rotation and just power leveling and grinding. Max level should take 3-4 months of obtaining maximum xp per day, with casuals reaching max level in 6-8 months. If daily xp is limited, this would encourage more horizontal progression, crafting, and other pursuits.
That won't happen in Pantheon, thankfully.
I want to chime in and say that I thought diplomacy in Vanguard was great. Sure, the presentation of it as a card game was a little gimmicky, but if you step back from that and think about what it was trying to do and the potential of a system like that to add a completely new type of content to a game world, it was pretty amazing. The ability for players to actively work on influencing the opinions and behavior of NPC groups in more than just an individual "faction rank" way would be a hallmark of a living world.
So much of what we loved about Vanguard was the potential - sure, diplomacy only allowed us to do buffs (and get guild hall plots), but if its full potential had been realized, we could have started or stopped wars, brokered trade treaties, and gained the trust of the rulers of the realm who would then entrust our guilds with epic tasks.
I do hope that Brad gets the chance to pursue a system like this again, whether it's in Pantheon or a different game.
As for level grinds - my opinion:
- Apart from very early levels, progression from one level to the next needs to be measured in days and eventually weeks, not hours. Otherwise, people will blow through content too quickly to really appreciate it.
- Obviously, that requires an appropriate amount of content to support that slow pace of progression. If there's only 3 dungeons in a level range and you can see/experience an entire dungeon in 2 days, then requiring people to spend 3 weeks to get through that level range seems a bit punitive.
- Content should be compelling enough that instead of the "average player" doing content to level, the "average player" levels while doing content. If you're not seeing the distinction, step back and think about what immersion means.
- While leveling should bring additional power and the potential for new skills and abilities, truly advancing your character should require far more than mere levels. If you want to really unlock the potential of that level you should be having to do things to earn those new abilities, or get better equipment.