Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Most MMO crafting systems suck. How to make a good one.

    • 93 posts
    March 29, 2018 5:21 PM PDT

    I can agree with the "avoid" points the OP makes but I completely disagree with his suggestions on what factors could be employed to make a goiod crafting system.  I further disagree with his assessment that POE has a great crafting system.

    To me, true crafting of items in POE is mostly useless except for the upper 1% of players that play 16 hours a day and/or flip currency all day long.  I have played POE continually since closed Beta and the currency you would need to expend to "craft" a very good item is so off-the-charts extreme and the crafting process so random (due to pulling from such large pools of affixes) that you are better off saving that expensive/rare currency and trying to buy an item similar to what you want from another player.  Meaningful crafting for the average, or even most "hard core" players is non-existent.  I don't want anything like that in Pantheon.

    • 93 posts
    March 29, 2018 5:28 PM PDT

    Darchias said:

    Having the end-result of a crafting combine's (hell, any item) stats vary based on RNG is the worst part of Diabloesque hack'n'slashes like Path of Exile. I'd rather have the recipe be consistently mediocre instead of having a bad roll make it only kinda good instead of excellent. It's about the emotional investment. If the item is consistent, obviously you know what to expect. You'll succeed the combine and make exactly the item you were expecting, or you fail the combine and get nothing (or some salvaged materials). The emotional impact of succeeding at a high-level combine only to find you've rolled damn near the minimum possible stats of the outcome is devastating. Like winning the lottery, then finding out that you only won the week after the last jackpot, and considering the three hundred other people who also won, you only got about a hundred-twenty bucks.

    Objectively, obviously winning a hundred-twenty bucks is a good thing! You paid less then ten for the lotto ticket. However, you can't exactly brag about it. People kinda laugh at you when you tell the story. Ever try and sell a 11/10 Barbarian torch in Diablo II? You are literally laughed at, or given offers only by people who don't understand how item stat variability works and, as a result, have no idea that everything they have for trade is utter garbage.

    Trust me. Path of Exile has a crafting system, yes, but it's not one that appeals to people who like to craft, or like roleplaying as a craftsman. It's pretty heavily apparent that the OP isn't one of those people, based on his complaints about the crafting systems of other games. I haven't actually played Path of Exile beyond a small involvement when it was in Open Beta, but from what he's listed above, it's only technically crafting in that it makes items and has methods and systems in place to adjust the outputs. He actually hits on the metaphor directly in his explanation! It's not crafting, it's gambling, or to put it more generously, an independent game that rewards you with lootboxes for PoE.

    I'll readily admit that a lot of MMOs miss the mark with their crafting systems, and Everquest most of all had some serious problems with investment vs. reward, but if any of you actually listen to anything I have to say as a longtime crafting enthusiast, listen to this: Maybe don't take advice from someone who hates what he's giving advice about. The reason so many games have you go out into the world for resources (something that Pantheon has already said they will be heavily supporting in the Feburary 2018 newsletter) is because there's a sizable portion of the playerbase that enjoys doing that. Spending hours and hours just wandering around a visually interesting environment while doing a repetitive, simple task? It's like fishing, it's something you can do to relax and think about other stuff, and it forces you to engage with the game world in a way that fighting monsters just doesn't do.

    +1  Many good points here.  I personally, enjoy running around different zones harvesting crafting resources.  It's a great way to pass some time when you don't have long to play opr can't find a good group.

    • 5 posts
    March 29, 2018 8:56 PM PDT

    For a person who has played eq for years, I've never was really interested in crafting. Maybe this time around... I might enjoy what Pantheon has to offer when it comes to making some of the most unique items and such. Seeing these latest streams made it interesting enough to dabble in here and there.

    • 26 posts
    March 29, 2018 9:55 PM PDT

    Let me tell you a story… Here I am a 45-55 Necro just coming into my power and I here tell of this amazing shawl that these people the coldain have. They will help you make it IF you can show them that you have the skills to craft it. So it's crafting I will go.  My wife and I start on this epic quest to become master crafter, so for the next 5-8 months my wife and I are out getting all the stuff we need to become MASTER CRAFTERS. And after all that work we finally get the COLDAIN BLESSED PRAYER SHAWL!

    Guess what by that time we were raiding and had much better equipment and I only wore the shawl once… yet I could sit here and tell you many stories about the fun we had going to all those places and getting all the stuff we needed

    Yet when the 2nd cultural recipes came out I was able to make my necro and my war a set so in the end I was happy with the time and work I put into the crafting of EQ1

    But then again I have always be one of those people that understand that without the thorn a rose cannot be a rose… in other words without some plain we cannot really appreciate the pleasure of life

    So make crafting just a hard as it was in EQ1 and I will still find joy in it

    • 14 posts
    March 29, 2018 9:59 PM PDT

    Honestly.  Just use Vanguard as your baseline.  That was the perfect mix of RNG  + risk/reward system.  You could have a couple things go wrong and not out right lose your item, or you could try to go big and lose every mat you put into it!  the one thing I do feel that vanguard did not do properly was assigning A+ or S or perfect or whatever you want to call it to a crafted item that was 100%.  Add that one thing in and my God I would love to just craft in your game.

     

    • 313 posts
    March 29, 2018 10:00 PM PDT

    Darchias said:Well, we're just going to have to disagree in some respects. Producing something unique is, undoubtedly, a powerful motivating factor in crafting. I do agree on this. The problem lies in the fact it is an MMO. It's essentially impossible to create a system in such a game to make something truly unique, so you focus on the idea of making things that are technically unique through randomizing some of the numbers on the end product. I honestly don't see any difference in the emotional aspect of making something unique in these two systems.

     

    This seems like a good example of the Nirvana fallacy- rejecting a solution because it isn't pefect.  If I produce a great item in a crafting system with a good amount of RNG, whether that item is truly unique or there are a handful of people that have the exact same (or very similar) probably has very little affect on the emotion that I would feel.  Equivocating that to a system that produces items with the exact same properties but with some variance in the numbers is absurd.  

    There exists, however, another perspective that you do not seem to be aware of. The 'passion' craftsman would rather have complete control over the process and make something that they intend to make, rather than making something unique. The thing they make may be unique anyway, but making something unique is not the goal, it's to make what they want to make. 

    Great point, but I would argue that you can accomodate both perspectives by having a system that is based on RNG but allows (through the investment of time and resources) a talented craftsperson to craft exactly what they want. 

    • 313 posts
    March 29, 2018 10:31 PM PDT

    urgatorbait said:

    I can agree with the "avoid" points the OP makes but I completely disagree with his suggestions on what factors could be employed to make a goiod crafting system.  I further disagree with his assessment that POE has a great crafting system.

    To me, true crafting of items in POE is mostly useless except for the upper 1% of players that play 16 hours a day and/or flip currency all day long.  I have played POE continually since closed Beta and the currency you would need to expend to "craft" a very good item is so off-the-charts extreme and the crafting process so random (due to pulling from such large pools of affixes) that you are better off saving that expensive/rare currency and trying to buy an item similar to what you want from another player.  Meaningful crafting for the average, or even most "hard core" players is non-existent.  I don't want anything like that in Pantheon.

     

    This just isn't true at all.  At least not anymore, and at least not for crafting a "very good item" as you say.  With a hanful of exalted orbs you can make a very good item using master crafting with little to no luck required.  Crafting godly, mirror-worthy items does require an large amount of currency or luck.  But even that isn't NEARLY as bad as it used to be with the things people have discovered about master crafting in the past 2 years.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak4FIMJ-MuE

    TLDR:  you can guarantee a +3 gem level weapon by getting a +2 x_type gem base item and blocking attack mods, thereby ensuring that the only other possible prefix is +1 all gems level.  And perhaps more importantly, you can use the prefix/suffix cannot be removed master mod to lock in a set of good prefixes or suffixes and repeatedly use a scouring orbs to wipe the bad mods and roll new ones.  

     


    This post was edited by zoltar at March 30, 2018 11:19 AM PDT
    • 48 posts
    March 30, 2018 6:19 PM PDT

    Old necro post I did 3-4 years ago on my thought about crafting

     

    So when you think of crafting you automatically know you are going to be taking items to either refine them, or break them down to make the materials you will need to either discover, or utilize the recipe you have found to make that awesome sword or ball of yarn you have always wanted.

     

    What most MMOs have done with their crafting it use it as a tack on system that is just there to either appease the lowest level of crafting available, or just give random junk a little more meaning. Which is always a letdown, and can really make it not fun for the community, and end up in really just a waste of development time.

     

    Things that I feel that really need to be avoided are systems that are the super simple click and done system ALA WoW. This just always feels lack luster, and never really makes it feel like an integrated part of the universe/ world within the game.

    Another thing to try and avoid is the Complete Random Number Game that other systems have used such as Aion, and FFXIV ( While FFXIV does support a more involved crafting system closer to EQ2's style it still very heavily focuses on RNG and gear that runs off of RNG ) The RNG systems are always frustrating, and leave a sour taste in people's mouths making it feel like the system was again a last minute idea, and something that just doesn't benefit the game.

     

    Now moving on to some of the more memorable systems and Ideas such as SWG, EQ2, Vanguard. All of these systems have one thing in common it took either skill time, or both in order to make items, and by doing that it really gave you the sense that you had accomplished that action, and prevented the game from feeling like the crafting system was just tacked on, but that it was really mean to help enhance the game. It also made the game feel like by doing the crafting in anyway wasnt a waste of time, but something that you could use to help advance yourself.

     

    I know that the Dev team for Pantheon has really been talking about a player driven economy.  This really means crafters need to play a big part in this, and more realistically harvesters need to play a big part in it as well.

     

    When systems are made people always look at it as a time sink. So when some people look at crafting they are like well I want to just whip something up, but in doing so you are making the most basic system, and in return for such a low time input the items can not be worth as much as other items obtained in the word since it wouldn't make sense to just give them items away to a super simple crafting system and then require people who want to go out and find items IE dungeon crawling and make them the same quality due to the different amounts of difficulty, and time spent required to obtain the items. So what more often than not happens is the crafting system is then nerfed to where the items created are normally useless or close to it.

     

    Though SWG was just a click to make crafting system there was a bigger focus on time needed to actually combine the items via a processing plant (cant remember the name of that machine you would pretty much sit next to ), and the fact that the higher and more advanced crafting was require to be done by classes made specifically for crafting and commercialism I think they were called traders it's just been so long. This really balanced out the time vs reward aspect, but was normally very boring, and required you to find really high quality materials to craft with and extract them as well as the time spent just getting the resources. This really put a huge time sink in to get the items, but the economy and items obtained were all through the supply and crating of the player economy which in the end made the whole process worth it even though it may have been boring just waiting for timers to run down to get finished items.

    EQ2 in the beginning had a really in depth crafting system that took a lot of time to make items, but did reward you for it through the while process helping you level by refining metals into ingots, and then make the base layer items to help build the final item ( this was all replaced fairly early on and the raw mats where then used to just make the final items. ) I enjoyed both styles of this, and since it was still a fairly decent time requirement to make decent items as well as the need for rare materials, and certain recipes being drop from dungeons only ( in vanilla not in expansions ) it created a co dependence on crafters and adventurers ( or rewarding you for adventuring if you also liked to craft ) This to me was a really nice way to have this done.

    Also as far as the crafting process went it was also engaging as you were essentially in combat with the IE sowing machine, and could even die from it

    ( which was hilarious when that happened ). You were given skills as you leveled up, and "complications" would arise that you would need to correct in kind of a time / click game. The HUGE downfall to this system was that if for any reason you needed to leave to do something say answer the door, check on a screaming child, or prevent your monsterous dog from peeing in the floor you would probably break the item failing the crafting encounter, or die which would also cause a failure. Outside of that issue the system worked well, kept you engaged, and was rewarding to due and useful in game.

     

    Vanguard- Probably everyone's favorite in the room ( or at least memorable ). Was by far the most in depth, and thought out  crafting system made to date. Not only was it a system built in to the game it literally was one of the main aspects of the game or Sphere. You had Adventuring, Crafting, and Diplomacy. Now don't get me wrong it took years to get the bugs out of it, and get it working ( not even up to normal or complete standards ). This system still even after all of that really felt like a more refined EQ2 crafting system. There wasn't a constant pressure to click this, or freak out and be like I need to answer the door, but if I do ill waste my super rare materials. Though it still offered the complexity and in depth workings of a really though out system. The implementation was just a little shaky due to the bugs. Crafting was also coupled with the gathering side of it. Where instead of fighting over resources you were rewarded for having more people with you to go out and harvest. So if you were out and adventuring and found some star ore you would start gathering your group or asking the guild for help to get all you could out of that rare node. This was a great social experience and bonding moment for groups and guilds it really promoted teamwork and helping people out which in return was highly rewarding.

    Vanguards crafting system was also very rewarding not only in the items you made, but the fact that it really felt super connected to the world and not a waste of time to do as some really really powerful stuff was made by crafters only rivaled by raid gear which was super hard to get ( especially before the raid was released lol ).

    The system really made you think tactically about the crafting process. You were given X amount of labor points to complete the recipe. You then had to take into account the very limited RNG for complications that would cost a few extra points, but would normally reward you by doing them as well. Then you also had to look at the Risk VS reward for putting in more points to get a grade A item, or just finishing it for a grade C. You not only needed resources, but special tools for certain recipes, and after crafting long enough you started to learn what other extra items you would need to equip such as extra acid wash, or bandages. I know that this system was supposed to let you know upfront what the required items were, but it just never got finished to let you know all the stuff you needed.

    This system also presented you with a somewhat of an encounter, but also it didn't put an artifical time limit on the encounter either letting you take your time to plan what you needed to do, and just in case you needed to step away from the game you were not punished as you could come back to it and finish it up as long as you stayed in the crafting process. I actually much preferred this to EQ'2 system as it would outline the crafting skills in its own UI rather than forcing you you have hot bars just for crafting.

     

    I really do hope the plan for crafting in Pantheon is a refined Vanguard system that will encompass gathering, and take a few of the frustrations out of that system and really push it forward like brads games have done in the past. It's just very important that the system isnt just slapped on and overly simplified just for the sake of doing it, but that it is a labor of love and crafted with the mind set of people actually playing the game just for the crafting aspect.

    • 83 posts
    April 3, 2018 10:14 AM PDT

    zoltar said:

    This seems like a good example of the Nirvana fallacy- rejecting a solution because it isn't pefect.  If I produce a great item in a crafting system with a good amount of RNG, whether that item is truly unique or there are a handful of people that have the exact same (or very similar) probably has very little affect on the emotion that I would feel.  Equivocating that to a system that produces items with the exact same properties but with some variance in the numbers is absurd. 

    I suppose, for this particular point, the details truly matter. It would depend on how different, mechanically, a minimum quality item is compared to a maximum quality item. There's many numbers to consider: How much did the recipe cost to produce? How rare are craftsmen capable of making the item? Are any of the materials so rare that they essentially cannot be bought on demand? This sets a baseline value for how invested a person is, emotionally, to a particular combine, the risk. The reward is determined by the amount of money the item is going for on the open market, and more importantly the difference between a minimal quality item and a maximal quality item. This value is determined by the various market factors present in the economy, including the demand (How many people want to buy an item like the one crafted? What type of customer is looking for the item?) and the competition (Are there other items that match or beat it in stats for the same people the item is intended for? How expensive are those items?)

    So let me run an example. Myself, an Ogre Leatherworker, wishes to make the Helm of the Kodiak. The Helm of the Kodiak is a piece of Leather armor that boosts Strength and Stamina, as well as having a particularly high Armor Class compared to other Leather armors, making it more comparable to Chain than Leather while being lighter. It also has a cool graphic that makes it look like you made a hat out of a bear's head and it looks awesome. The Helm of the Kodiak is a rare recipe, obtained by killing the rare open-world spawn One-Eye the Great Bear, so crafters that make the helm are also rare. The recipe does not take particularly expensive materials, save for a particularly high quality bear hide that has a low drop rate off of bears of a specific level. This wouldn't be so bad, except bears have a bad spawn rate so the material is very valuable. The bears are, however, fairly close to the Ogre city of Broken Maw, so it's not impossible to find it for sale. While the material is expensive, I could be reasonably able to obtain two or three of the hide. The intended level range for the item is mid-teens, so powerful raid items are not common (if around at all) at this level, and One-Eye is intended to be tackled as a group, so the item is supposed to be comparable to a drop from a dungeon of that level.

    Who wants the helm? Low level Warriors, capable of wearing plate, may find the armor class too low, and may pass on the extra Stamina and Strength. Monks would find it very valuable, but unless they plan on taking a lot of hits there might be better items with more offensively focused stats such as Dexterity, whereas Rogues have access to Chain and have more options. Druids, like myself, would not like it much at all due to the lack of enhancement for their casting statistic, but Druids might have a build that emphasizes shapeshifting and physical stats (I know so little about what they will have access to). It is limited, demand wise, due to being a fairly low-level item, thus higher level characters with money to burn don't buy it except to twink alts, and even then (depending on the system in place for level-restrictions on gear) they might have access to still more powerful items. Finally, it's a cool looking item, so it has at least some value even if it's outcompeted by other items.

    So my investment is pretty high, due to the rarity of the hide and the scarcity of Leatherworkers with the recipe, but not at the maximum level because while expensive the hide is not impossible to buy if I was willing to pay. I also realize that the helm may have a limited market due to the unusual stat profile for the Armor category, so my expected market are Dark Myr Rogues and Monks who want access to the Strength and a bit of extra bulk, with the possibility of Skar Monks and Rogues wandering far enough to be sold to. So the actual value of the item will depend on one factor: How well does the Helm of the Kodiak stack up to other crafted items of the same tier, and how well does it stack up against dropped items of the same slot? How easy are good cosmetics to aquire?

    This is where the numbers matter. The base value for statistics in Pantheon is 8, a deicision they made to make even a +1 in a stat feel like it matters. This is why I'm so wary about having the numbers vary. You'll get a very different emotional response if the range is +80 to +100 and you get a +80 compared to a range of +2 to +5 and you get a +2. Stacking it up against dropped items from mobs is even more important when you take into account these variations, because if my Helm of the Kodiak has +2-4 STR, +2-4 STA, and +7-10 AC, it's going to vary in price significantly if it's closest market competition is the dropped Helm of Shellcrack, a Leather helm off a named giant tortoise from the dungeon near Syronai's Rest that has +3 STR, +3 STA, and +8 AC. If the Helm of the Kodiak instead had +2-3 STR, +3-4 STA, and +8-9 AC, only a very unlucky roll produces an inferior item, so having anything other than the minimum at least matches the value of the Helm of Shellcrack. With an even larger variation, it's even worse, because if the range is +1-5 STR, +1-5 STA, and +5-12 AC, then it will vary from hot garbage to obscenely powerful for the level and effort invested. People more readily remember negative events than positive, so how it feels to make a bad roll is more important from a design perspective than how it feels when a good roll is had. I will mention that the theoretical Helm of the Kodiak is still a good cosmetic item, so a bad roll might still sell to people, but it's value will be calculated very differently and people willing to pay enough to cover the cost of the hide and the skill of the craftsman might be rare. Not all items will have this value, too, so you can't make a system that assumes every item has cosmetic appeal and therefore all items have value regardless of stats.

    Going back to the resources, you also need to measure the outcome of resource flexibility. If that valuable hide I'm using in this helm has another recipe that makes an even better item, or an item that is more reliable result-wise (say the pelt is also used in a weight-reducing bag that doesn't vary at all), then the pain of a bad roll stings even more because it artificially increases the value of the hide, therefore the risk I'm taking on for using it on the helm.

    In Path of Exile and other Diabloesque games, dropped items vary in statistics just as much as crafted ones. If crafted items vary in statistics and dropped items don't, that's a problem because all of a sudden crafting paradoxically becomes just as risky if not moreso than adventuring because now you have just as many results from crafting (failed, succeed with bad outcome, succeed with good outcome) as adventuring (dead, win with no drop, win with drop). If Pantheon fails to make the crafting process inherently engaging through gameplay (a proposal I'm fairly certain is actually impossible, though I'd be willing to be proved wrong) then Adventuring becomes much more rewarding than crafting because it no longer balances the fact it's inherently more fun to do with having less certain or less valuable rewards.

    Worth mentioning at this point that if they wanted to make item drops from monsters vary as well as crafted items vary, I would have much less of a problem with the concept. I'm opposed to the crafting results being RNG based given that drops from mobs are not. Granted, I would greatly prefer if neither were RNG, but I wouldn't be opposed to the concept from a design standpoint since it maintains the normal crafting/adventuring dynamic (adventuring more fun/engaging to do, crafting having better rewards to compensate).

    One thing I really should mention, since it's a point you should have brought up and is very relevant, is that Salvaging items is an important and valuable skill in Pantheon, so bad rolls on items could just be called 'Salvage fodder', particularly if a skilled Salvager could possibly get the most valuable components out of the helm and just try the combine again. This could mitigate a lot of the damage bad rolls have on crafting outcomes by essentially giving them a reroll on the item stats.

    Great point, but I would argue that you can accomodate both perspectives by having a system that is based on RNG but allows (through the investment of time and resources) a talented craftsperson to craft exactly what they want.
    A hybrid system being in place is interesting, but I have concerns about how difficult it would be to design, and again the problem is details. If the investment required to make an item with a guarunteed maximum roll is too difficult, almost nobody would do it, while if it's too easy, nobody would ever craft it the normal way with the RNG operating. I suppose it would control the pricing problem by giving the difference in value between a maximum result and a randomly rolled result an actual cost, but that also means that the maximum result price will never drop below that amount, which goes into the part about investment in the recipe by pegging the cost-to-create at a higher value.

     

    In summary, a large portion of our disagreements seem to stem about assumptions about how much items will vary, and without the details of a system to point to and do math with, I don't really think our debate can continue without retreading ground (feel free to prove me wrong). I agree that, while such a system that you have propsed has signifcant problems with incentives and that the economy in Diabloesque games function very dfferently compared to most MMORPGs, your proposed system does have some merits. I feel that the numerical system Pantheon has in place, where every +1 matters, makes every +1 difference in a finished piece matter, makes the RNG based stats on gear impractical, but it might be able to be done well. You may be right that the feeling of making something unique might be able to be evoked from variations in stats, but the amount of variation in stats that would require is the problem I have with the concept. In my mind, the amount of difference in my Helm of the Kodiak has to have compared to that guy's Helm of the Kodiak has to be in order for it to feel unique is large enough that it would be the difference between being hot garbage and an excellent item. If they are different and both good items, I don't believe I would feel that they were qualitatively different, even though they are quantitatively different. That qualitative difference is where my feelings of how something is unique comes from, and in that I believe we think very differently.

    • 313 posts
    April 3, 2018 6:36 PM PDT

    You may be right that the feeling of making something unique might be able to be evoked from variations in stats, but the amount of variation in stats that would require is the problem I have with the concept. In my mind, the amount of difference in my Helm of the Kodiak has to have compared to that guy's Helm of the Kodiak has to be in order for it to feel unique is large enough that it would be the difference between being hot garbage and an excellent item.

    One thing I noticed in your example was that the item you were discussing only had 3 stats: armor level, strength, and stamina.  If you're going to make an item system based on RNG, you need variation in what mods appear, not just the strength of those mods.  Personally, I think that's a good design choice regardless of how much RNG is involved.  You just have a lot more room to make interesting items.  Armor in the MMO Asheron's Call had levels of protection (poor, average, excellent, unparalleled, etc) versus various damage types (slashing, piercing, blunt, acid, lightning, cold, fire) which were essentially modifiers to the base ac.  That's an example of a simple addition that can allow for a lot more vairance in items.  

    So lets take your example of a Helm of the Kodiak.  And lets say that, being an epic recipe, the rolls for armor, strength, and stamina guaranteed to be high and have reduced variance.  So maybe an 80/20 chance of +3/4 str/stam and a 50/35/15 chance of rolling +7/8/9 ac.   Then add in a number of other secondary mods that range from useless to pretty good and also a 50/35/15 chance of average/excellent/unparalleled protection against all the damage types.  

    So now a "perfect" Helm of the Kodiak is looking pretty damn distinctive (to avoid the "unique" term).  

     

    P.S.

    Here's some probability numbers for the helmet discussed:

    Probability of perfect rolls for str/stam/ac:  0.6%

    Probability of perfect rolls for str/stam/ac/protection with 4 damage types: 0.0003%

    And lets say there are 25 possible secondary mods, 5 of which are considered very good and the item can roll up to 2 of these with low/med/high rolls at 50/35/15 probability.

    Probability of perfect rolls for str/stam/ac/protection/2 high value good secondary mods: 0.000007%

    That's 1 out of every 140,000 helmets created will be considered "perfect".  That's an impressive level of rareness considering we used the limited value range that you established.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at April 4, 2018 9:29 AM PDT
    • 313 posts
    April 4, 2018 10:39 AM PDT

    While I'm already discussing crafting an item using RNG, let me hypothesize a bit about how you could implement ways for crafters to counter the RNG.  I would have optional crafting ingredients that are semi-rare drops which can either improve the odds of rolling the maximum value of a mod or guarantee a specific mod appears (assuming it's possible to roll).  

    For example, rare gems could be found that would guarantee a particular mod.  Then you might find or buy some soul-infused cloth (or steel or wood or whatever) which can improve the strength of mods in the following manner:

      • 1) only works on a mod that is guaranteed (via base recipe or adding  a gem)
      • 2) increases the max roll probabilty by whatever it's base chance is.  Lowers probabilty of non-max rolls by the same total amount, with reduction skewed towards the lowest end.
      • 3) can be applied to multiple mods
      • 4) can be applied multiple times to the same mod (possibly guaranteeing a max roll), with costs rising exponentially for each additonal bonus.  
      • 5) Details unpublished, up to the crafter/community to determine the thresholds for guaranteeing a max rolls and other interactions.

     

    So lets say I go to craft one of these helms.  I have a gem of speed which guarantees the +3%/5%/7% attack speed mod and a stack of 50 soul-infused cloth.  Lets say my #1 priority is guaranteeing a max str roll, which is good since part of the epicness of the recipe is that str has a high max roll chance (20%).  So I only need enough cloth for 4 +roll bonuses to hit 100%, whereas a more standard 15% max roll chance would need 6 +roll bonuses to hit the 100% cap.  Lets say the base amount of soul-infused cloth to get a +roll bonuse for str is 5 and to guarantee the max str roll would require 5+7+10+14 = 36 SIC.  Then lets say I know there's an encounter I want to prepare for where a bunch of archers attack my group at random, so I know I'll be taking a lot of piercing damage.  So I put some of the additional cloth into boosting piercing protection (slight change from previous description of armor protections: lets say it's a bell curve that includes poor at the low end, average at the center, and unparalleled at the top).  I'm mainly concerned about blocking the possibility of getting poor piercing protection, so just 5+7 cloth will do that for me.  

    So I may have invested significantly more in this craft, but I have guaranteed a max rolll of strength, guaranteed at least 1 very good mod for me, and I blocked getting poor piercing protection while giving a good chance at unparalleled.  I customized the item to my specific needs, and I did all of this using my knowledge of the crafting system that I worked with other players to develop.  Who in thier right mind would prefer a mini-game that spits out mostly identical items?  


    This post was edited by zoltar at April 4, 2018 10:59 AM PDT
    • 68 posts
    April 4, 2018 4:28 PM PDT

    I'd like to offer my 2cp. 

    Item 1:  As to developing ranks in a skill thru tedious repetition; have you ever worked at building a career in a skilled trade?  I'm a remote broadcast engineer.  That's not an entry level position.  I got my break in becoming a regular on this crew on a truck build.  I made THOUSANDS of cables.  Identical ended cables.  And then I made THOUSANDS of other cables.  Identical cables.  Working the Super Bowl was NOT my first gig.  I can't tell you how many mind numbing no named college games I worked that fans turned out to see by the 10s.  So, yeah, tedious reps is part of it.  You have to pay your dues because as they say, if it was easy, anyone could do it.

    Item B:  I refer you to Eve's crafting system.  Now i'm not suggesting their crafting system per se, so much as the way their MARKET was used.  Eve had hands down the best in game, player made market of any game.  Ever.  If you don't agree, it's only because you haven't played Eve.  Damn near everything was player made.  In fact, and this is my point so don't miss this, there was a market for lower and intermediary craftsmen to make but loads of "supplies", materials, refined ores, finished mats, and most importantly, things like the straps and rivots and scales of a previous example.  And higher skilled end game craftsmen would buy them en masse and produce end game ships with them.  Now, the obvious difference is that these ships would invariably get blown up at some point, creating a perpetual need for more end game ships, but I believe the point is still valid.  And that point is this:  the crafting system success will thrive if there's a good ole fashioned capitalist buy and sale market.  If Pantheon doesn't get the market right with both Buy and Sell orders, crafting will suffer the same fate it usually does.

    • 313 posts
    April 4, 2018 7:02 PM PDT

    dudimous said:

    I'd like to offer my 2cp. 

    Item 1:  As to developing ranks in a skill thru tedious repetition; have you ever worked at building a career in a skilled trade?  I'm a remote broadcast engineer.  That's not an entry level position.  I got my break in becoming a regular on this crew on a truck build.  I made THOUSANDS of cables.  Identical ended cables.  And then I made THOUSANDS of other cables.  Identical cables.  Working the Super Bowl was NOT my first gig.  I can't tell you how many mind numbing no named college games I worked that fans turned out to see by the 10s.  So, yeah, tedious reps is part of it.  You have to pay your dues because as they say, if it was easy, anyone could do it.

    Okay, but this is a game.  Not a job.  Regardless, I'm actually more or less okay with having some tedious repetition as part of leveling the crafting skill, but this should be primarily focused on producing components.  What I said originally was that you shouldn't be producing the exact same weapon or piece of armor over and over again.  Not only because it makes the apex of the crafting cycle boring, but it also floods the market with tons of unnecessary items.  So if the crafting equivalent of your cables are chain mail rings, I'm fine with having crafters make a bunch of these as part of leveling.  Within reason, that is.  I get the distinct feeling that a lot of people here want to use tedium to drive scarcity of competition.  That's a sentiment that I strongly disagree with.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at April 4, 2018 7:03 PM PDT
    • 83 posts
    April 5, 2018 7:18 AM PDT

    Alright, I'm not gonna have time for a while to thoroughly engage your response. I am impressed with the detail of your examples, but I really need a bit of clarification before I can give a detailed response. When you say...

    One thing I noticed in your example was that the item you were discussing only had 3 stats: armor level, strength, and stamina.  If you're going to make an item system based on RNG, you need variation in what mods appear, not just the strength of those mods.  Personally, I think that's a good design choice regardless of how much RNG is involved.  You just have a lot more room to make interesting items.
    ...Do you mean that all items should have variation in mods, or just crafted items? Because in an MMO that is supposed to feel like a living and breathing world, that is the wrong answer. Stepping away from crafting for a moment, one of the design choices that's important in an MMO is trying to encourage people to explore and try out as much content as possible. If dropped items can vary like that, it encourages camping the same thing for a lot longer than the alternative in order to play the 'loot slot machine', trying to get the right mixture of mods. Whereas before the only real reason to camp the mob is either to get multiple copies of the same piece for the purposes of selling it, or because you hadn't gotten the piece you actually wanted to get because the mob dropped something else instead (or, depending on the MMO, dropped nothing at all. Named mobs, IMO, should always drop something special, but that doesn't mean they should always drop something good.)

    (Keep in mind that I am positing situations happening years down the line, when the game is more thoroughly understood. The people first doing this content obviously wouldn't know a lot of these things)

    With variations in mods, now someone trying to camp the Shellcracker who wants the Helm of Shellcracker would need to get even luckier because now instead of just needing to camp him until he drops the helm as opposed to the rest of his loot table (Tortoiseshell Boots, Shield of the Patterned Shell, and the Turtle Soup recipe), now the adventurer might now know that the Helm can have a range of mods, and because adventurers want the best things (a common thought in gamers in general) he wants a specific mod. They could even be ok with a range of mods, the Monk camping Shellcrack wants a mod that increases his resistances, with Magic resistance being the most important. So now if the Helm of Shellcrack drops and has any of the other mods, he'll have to keep camping it because the mod is useless to him. Because this is an MMO with timed spawns instead of a Diabloesque game where you can just reset and respawn everything instantly, it's a huge time investment to continue camping Shellcrack.

    Consistency in dropped items is important in MMO's because it means people can take actions to get what they want. Playing the loot slot machine is much more frustrating in general due to how long it takes to get that loot compared to games like Path of Exile and Diablo. Actually, that concept is useful for addressing a earlier point: why people craft. People want to get what they want to get. Kind of tautological, but it's an important concept. In real life, people like cosplayers and woodworker hobbyists make things for a lot of reasons, but one of the most common ones is that exactly what they want is simply not for sale anywhere. Having complete control over the result of your crafting results in the emotional effect of feeling like you made a thing.

    Managing to throw a bunch of extra resources at it in order to reduce the RNG and thus managing to create exactly you want, it does result in satisfaction, but the satisfaction stems from defeating the game's efforts to make you not get what you want. It's an important distinction because it manages how you feel about the crafting system. The first means the system gave you what you want, so you feel positive about it. The second means that you feel like you defeated a system that was attempting to stop your success, which might not make you feel negative feelings toward it, and might even help you feel accomplished, resulting in perhaps a higher level of positive emotionality than the first condition, but the difference is that it's not the feeling someone who truly likes crafting pursues. It's what an adventurer wants. If you want that feeling, just go kill mobs. The crafting system should cater to those who actually want to craft, not be something that appeals to everybody, and in this I think you and I have a significantly different perspective.  I don't want tedium in the system because you and I are looking at the same thing and interpreting it differently. You see it as tedium, I see it as non-demanding gameplay, something I can do to unwind after a long day and don't particularly want to be aware of changing battlefield conditions. I see it as doing the work I need to do to obtain the goal I want to do. The work doesn't have to be innately engaging, the work you put in increases the emotional reward afterward.

    Again, I don't have time at the moment to thoroughly engage your example, and I might this weekend if I get all my work done, but rest assured I have some things to say about the specifics. I'm already putting way too much time in this response than I intended, so I have to cut it off here.

    Alright one more thing, this is too much.

    Who in thier right mind would prefer a mini-game that spits out mostly identical items? 
    First, try not to insult the people you are debating by referring to them as, 'not in their right mind'. Second, the people who would want to spit out mostly identical items are people who want that item instead of whatever random-ass mods the RNG decides to slap onto it.

    • 313 posts
    April 5, 2018 8:31 AM PDT

    Darchias said:Do you mean that all items should have variation in mods, or just crafted items? Because in an MMO that is supposed to feel like a living and breathing world, that is the wrong answer. Stepping away from crafting for a moment, one of the design choices that's important in an MMO is trying to encourage people to explore and try out as much content as possible. If dropped items can vary like that, it encourages camping the same thing for a lot longer than the alternative in order to play the 'loot slot machine', trying to get the right mixture of mods. Whereas before the only real reason to camp the mob is either to get multiple copies of the same piece for the purposes of selling it, or because you hadn't gotten the piece you actually wanted to get because the mob dropped something else instead (or, depending on the MMO, dropped nothing at all. Named mobs, IMO, should always drop something special, but that doesn't mean they should always drop something good.)

    It seems to me that in general, giving people a reason to repeat content is a good thing.  That being said, no I don't mean that all items have to have variation in mods.  A fairly common convention in RNG based loot systems is that you have your basic RNG generated items of various levels (common, magic, rare, etc), and then you can also have fixed items (call them legendary, unique, or whatever) that have set mods and often times other unique properties, graphics, and flavor-text that help give the item a personality.  Here's an example from Path of Exile

    For context, there's only two items in the game that convert fire damage to chaos damage: A unique chest and this dagger.  Anyway, rare spawns that have to be camped would more than likely drop these kinds of unique items, not items with RNG mods (though still some RNG in the values of the mods, but that's something that can be tailored per the item).  As would items that are rewards from quests.  Again, my point was never that EVERYTHING has to be 100% RNG.  Rare spawns dropping unique (fixed) items is great.  Rare crafting mats/recipes yielding unique (fixed) items is great.  But for items that can be made over and over and over, it's much better to have those be RNG items.  

     

    Darchias said:why people craft. People want to get what they want to get. Kind of tautological, but it's an important concept. In real life, people like cosplayers and woodworker hobbyists make things for a lot of reasons, but one of the most common ones is that exactly what they want is simply not for sale anywhere. Having complete control over the result of your crafting results in the emotional effect of feeling like you made a thing.

     I don't want tedium in the system because you and I are looking at the same thing and interpreting it differently. You see it as tedium, I see it as non-demanding gameplay, something I can do to unwind after a long day and don't particularly want to be aware of changing battlefield conditions. 

    If crafting doesn't involve RNG, then what they are making WILL be for sale everywhere because everyone is making exactly the same items.  What is the point in having "exact control" over what you are making if you can't make it unique?  To your last point, notice that I'm not saying "don't put in any tedous, non-demanding, non-repetitive elements".  What I'm saying is that it shouldn't be ALL tedious, non-demaning, and repetitive.  Have a spectrum that includes RNG items.  I completely acknowledge that there's something to be said for coming home after a long day and just wanting to do something mindless.  That type of activity is perfect for making potions, beer, non-equipable items such as decorations, beer mugs, etc, and the crafting components.  

    P.S. "who in their right minds" is a saying.  It wasn't meant as an insult.  I appreciate you taking the time to discuss the issue.  It's something I'm passionate about, as I see you are as well.  Ultimately I'm pretty sure the game will align more with your perspective, but I still enjoy evangelizing for the RNG system.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at April 5, 2018 10:37 AM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    April 5, 2018 3:30 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    Celandor said:I've always maintained that the best possible system would have the best in slot items created by players from rare dungeon drops.   Rather than drop the Breastplate of Uberness, the dragon would drop a scale which would be combined with other ingredients to craft the breastplate.   Rather than drop the ultimate sword, the boss drops a rare ore which must be forged by the best craftsmen, hammered into shape and tempered in dragon blood.  You haven't made adventuring any less rewarding and you've introduced a huge incentive for social interaction.

    If player-made items aren't among the best, then the long process of becoming a master craftsperson simply isn't worth the effort.  I believe this is the primary reason that most crafting systems have failed in past games.  

    Fundamentally I like the idea you put forth.  What I wouldn't want to be part of that processes is requiring somene to craft 50 copper bracers, 50 copper helmets, 50 copper breastplates, (repeat with silver, steel, mithirl, etc) along with hours and hours of mindless mat farmng in order to level up a crafting skill to the point where you can make an interesting end-game item from a rare drop.  

    zoltar said:

    Okay, but this is a game.  Not a job.  Regardless, I'm actually more or less okay with having some tedious repetition as part of leveling the crafting skill, but this should be primarily focused on producing components.  What I said originally was that you shouldn't be producing the exact same weapon or piece of armor over and over again.  Not only because it makes the apex of the crafting cycle boring, but it also floods the market with tons of unnecessary items.  So if the crafting equivalent of your cables are chain mail rings, I'm fine with having crafters make a bunch of these as part of leveling.  Within reason, that is.  I get the distinct feeling that a lot of people here want to use tedium to drive scarcity of competition.  That's a sentiment that I strongly disagree with.  

    I am lost here. RNG crafting systems take the tedium of farming up masses of mats and crafting the "same" items and turns it up to an 11. Instead of spending hours or possibly days/weeks in the event a component is a rare drop from a rare and/or highly camped mob to be able to get what you are after you make it a slim chance to get something near what you were after. You make it, it rolls something sub-par, you feel defeated and have to repeat the process potentially hundreds of times to get something near what you are after in the first place.

    Secondly it floods the markets with FAR more useless crap as players try to unload their "mistakes" to recoup at least something if possible. 

    Then you have a bigger issue which is: other players are FAR less likely to even attempt making purchase orders from crafters, passing almost all the risk/cost upon the crafter. Most would much prefer spending on a sure thing or farming for mob dropped items with guaranteed stats they want. 

    • 313 posts
    April 5, 2018 5:03 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    you make it a slim chance to get something near what you were after. You make it, it rolls something sub-par, you feel defeated and have to repeat the process potentially hundreds of times to get something near what you are after in the first place.

    No, because for basic recipes you could choose to invest optional crafting materials to increase the odds or even guarantee getting what you want.  And very rare drop/spawn recipes would craft items akin to "legendary" or "unique" items with set mods.  

    Secondly it floods the markets with FAR more useless crap as players try to unload their "mistakes" to recoup at least something if possible.

    This just isn't true at all.  The difference is that in non-rng systems , everybody makes the same stuff for skill-ups.  There's no chance for it to have any value because it's the same and the supply is so high.  You know it's trash before you even hit the button to make it.  In an RNG system, at least you have the chance to make something great and valuable via routine methods.  So in the worst case, they are the same, but in the best case RNG is much better for the crafter. 

    Then you have a bigger issue which is: other players are FAR less likely to even attempt making purchase orders from crafters, passing almost all the risk/cost upon the crafter. Most would much prefer spending on a sure thing or farming for mob dropped items with guaranteed stats they want. 

    If someone has a specific need, they would still be able to meet that by using optional ingredients to eliminate the RNG from the craft.  So they could still do a purchase order without risking failure.  Free market and supply/demand would keep the cost of those optional ingredients balanced.  If more people get their items from drops, the demand for the crafting mats drops until it's economically beneficial to get a crafted item.  If people rely heavily on dropped gear and crafted items with the optional materials to guarantee success, then the demand for the basic crafting mats will drop and so it will become economically beneficial to do random crafts with the basic materials.  And the developers can maintain the overall balance of crafted vs found items by adjusting the overall rate that crafting materials become available.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at April 5, 2018 5:04 PM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    April 5, 2018 11:43 PM PDT

    Why not cutting the apple in two ?

    You get the RNG part if you want it to be, making sub par items most of the time, and you can get rare tempers or whatever they are called to improve the low quality items after it's crafter untill it reaches the maximum statistics you could have obtained by a lucky roll at start. As long as the RNG is equivalent to the time spent obtaining thoses tempers, it's pretty similar with one beeing a fully RNG system, and the other beeing a progressive item system.