Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Most MMO crafting systems suck. How to make a good one.

    • 313 posts
    March 26, 2018 12:11 AM PDT

    My mmo experience is predominantly Asheron's Call back in old-timer days, WoW and LOTRO more recently.

    Let me say this: crafting in WoW and LOTRO was pretty much a bunch of BS that probably detracted from the game more than it added. Boring farming of mats.  Simple, boring cookie-cutter recipe spam.  Aside from checking off a box for PR/marketing and adding a time sink to the game so that players have things to do for hours and hours, I'm not sure there was a valid reason for even having crafting in these games. Although it's not an MMO, you can throw Diablo 3 in there too since it was basically the same situation.

    This isn't to say that crafting can't be a great addition to an MMO. I'm going to list out a few things that I think should be avoided in designing a crafting system and a few things that should be included.

    Avoid

    1. Encouraging players to ride around for hours clicking on nodes to harvest
    2. Having players craft the same piece of armor/weapon from a template over and over (especially for skill ups, but also to sell)
    3. Produce boilerplate items that are identical or very slight variations

     

    Do

    1. Produce actual unique items by utilizing a system with random modifiers
    2. make the crafting involve a risk vs reward (preferably by including un-desired mods/stats though possibly outright failure) 
    3. Exponentially rising cost of adding additonal mods
    4. For consumables, the focus should be on establishing a shop that automatically produces items

     

    Not sure if anyone is familiar with Path of Exile, but I think they got a lot of things right with their crafting system and much of it could be adapted to an MMO. The basic idea of crafting in PoE is to take a basic item and add affixes (mods) to it that improve it.  The affixes are randomly generated (with some exceptions) with multiple tiers and value ranges.  Mods can be anything from 100% essential for a certain type of item all the way to completly useless.  The currency needed to add the first couple of mods is very cheap, but then it goes up a little and eventually requires very rare and expensive materials.

    The system of which mods can appear and the strength of the mods is fairly complex, and thus it greatly rewards KNOWLEDGE about crafting. You can also level up crafting NPC's in your hideout that add additonal complexity onto the system with things like the ability to add guaranteed mods, lock out certain classes of mods, remove some mods, etc. Players have found clever ways to combine different orders of adding/removing/locking/blocking/etc mods to improve odds of making an exceptional item.  Think of it like playing Blackjack at a casino.  Anyone can play, and you may win or lose.  But people that are good and put in time to learn tricks (card counting) can improve their odds to the point where they can make a killing.

    Here's an example of a popular crafting strategy:  At a certain level, master crafting npc's allow you to add a guaranteed mod of average tier.  They can also remove it.  So the strategy is to purposefully add an undesired mod to prevent it from rolling.  After crafting the item, remove the master mod and replace it with either a good master mod or try for a random one of higher tier.  That's just scratching the surface of what you can do in that crafting system.  There is so much to learn about maximizing your odds of success.  There's things like picking just the right base item level so that certain high tiers of desired mods can be rolled but higher tiers of undesired mods are locked out (since available tiers depend on the item level). 

    The great thing about the way PoE handles crafting is that you frequently see people being excited about a craft and posting their item on reddit. There is constant competition to see who has crafted the #1 item of type x. The rarest item in the game is an orb "mirror of kalandra" that can duplicate an item, which adds an aspect of competition to produce "mirror worthy" items and charge a huge fee for making copies. Compare that to most MMO's where the best you can do is craft a shining mithril long sword that is exactly like 10000 other ones made by every other weapon-smith. ZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    So if I was in charge I would borrow heavily from the Path of Exile crafting system but adapted to fit an MMO. Of course, part of the success of the crafting system would depend on items having a diverse and interesting pool of possible mods. That's also something that I would strongly argue in favor of. The trend towards fairly fixed stats with item level being by and large the only indicator of quality is disappointing to say the least.

    This style of crafting is so far superior to the typical MMO crafting system that it's almost a joke.  If you're going to put in a crafting system with cookie-cutter recipes in 2018+, why even bother?  Incorporating a mini-game that tries to mimick actual crafting artistry is an interesting idea, but ultimately it's putting lipstick on a pig so to speak.  There's a good chance it's just going to get old very quickly and/or be exploitable via 3rd party tools.  

    There's so much to love about the PoE style system though.  It's exciting when you roll a good item or when you see others hit the lottery.  People make actual unique items.  Real knowledge and experience are valuable.  And even for people that don't like the RNG aspects, there are ways for them to minimize/eliminate the RNG.  In PoE with a high level master crafter NPC you can produce pretty darn good items with multiple guaranteed mods.  Not perfectly rolled #1 items by far, but they are more than adequate for your average player.  

     

     


    This post was edited by zoltar at March 26, 2018 12:53 AM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    March 26, 2018 12:45 AM PDT

    Not played POE enough to see the crafting, however I played a lot of MMOs in the last decade and none of them made me enjoy crafting. Here's a little sum-up of what I can remember

     

    In EQ It was a true hardcore system with very little rewards. You would usually spend 10 times the efforts, and people only began crafting a lot once the coldain shawl quest was out, because it needed a lot of crafts.

    UO craft was really repetitive, and with no tooltip on items, you didn't really know if what you put on was good or not.

    In wow it was just a routine, everything you can do is 100% success and the  only difficulty comes from some materials or recipes.

    SWTOR craft was bringing nothing, your npc crafter and harvested while you were out, with little harvesting from yourself, same difficult as wow, same problems.

    Rift.. was there even craft in rift at launch ?

    Wildstar craft was heavily tied to daily quests and reputation, which made it quite boring. The mat's were dull on some parts, I couldn't get my head in it, really.

    ESO Craft was... how to say. It was quite easy on some part, but the rarity items where level neutral which resulted in a lot of problems when willing to craft levelling gear. The affix system, plus set system, plus quality system was decent, but in the end your craft was nothing if not added with a powerfull enchant of some sort. I ended doing myself a full set of what I would say "the best bonuses and crafted set avaliable" when the game launched and I hit lvl max, and guess what ? It made every dungeon drop usueless and inferior. In the end it was so easy and manageable, that I could just skip the whole "gear game".

     

     

    In the end, I don't really like "random things", especially for stats. I agree you can have a chance to make a better or a weaker items, but totally random farm is a time and money sink limited to hack and slash (what POE or diablo are), because you will kill a lot, loot a lot, craft, and get some good RNG somehow, sometimes.

    I prefer the craft to be hard but predictable, with concentrated efforts rewarding at the end, even if it's only for one really good item. I remember levelling Poison Making in EQ but only for flavour (and for the master's assassin vial), it took me a lot of work and farm, especially as a solo rogue sometimes. And I had the AA master poisonner 3 at this time (I don't recall exactly but it was like "reduce your failure by 50%" or "increase you chance to craft a poison by 50%" which seemed to give me net results of at least 50% chance on items. Back then I had no craft "gear" and no craft "buffs" and I just crafted in my adventurer's gear. Unfortunately, the vanity was appreciable but it offered me no usefull option in the end. I even tried to use resist down poison on high resist dragons from nToV but it was.. resisted, booo !

    I think it would be wise to attach crafting or harvesting of good items with group content, meaning if you run a dungeon and get no usefull drop, that chunck of Halnirite might be able to give you a cool craft nonetheless.


    This post was edited by Mauvais_Oeil at March 26, 2018 12:51 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    March 26, 2018 4:50 AM PDT

    Hey, that’s my lipstick!  But in all seriousness you have a lot of good points.  The real challenge with variable results from combines is going to come from the fact that, in its current iteration, Pantheon appears to have been scaled down to a d20 3d6 stat block scale.  There are just not a lot of integers to work with when the base stat is 8 and the overpowered fully geared stat is 26.

    Rather variable stat results may need to come in the form of things like: percent chance to critical, bonus healing, final AC, item weight(?) or regen  modifiers.  The super rare/good results can incorporate click effects that may or may not need to be recharged.  Having the DPS on a weapon be one of the variables is a little dangerous for balance if you are not careful.  As you are familiar with PoE “increase” effects are good but “more” effects can get out of wack.

    In a lot of previous threads SWG and DaOC were noted as having some of the best crafting systems, each with their own good and bad points.  Camelot Unchained looks like it is going to be a good system but as it’s a pure PVP game I’m not super interested, still pledged because I would love the system if it was PVE as well.

    FYI I’ve been mulling over the mini-game idea and I have gotten a little inspiration from Divinity Original Sin but I can only think of good examples for smithing.  I will be adding to that thread later this week, hopefully it will seem more interesting. 

    Finally, a slot based single unit volume system is really restrictive for a variable result crafting system.  You need to have a list based inventory system otherwise  you will never have enough inventory slots to keep your variable result sub combines or variable quality raw materials in addition to normal adventuring loot.  I guess a fall back would be some form of “craft inventory” that operated separately from your main inventory, either tied to non-dimensional space or stored in your “locker” at a local crafting station.

    • 313 posts
    March 26, 2018 8:18 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    There are just not a lot of integers to work with when the base stat is 8 and the overpowered fully geared stat is 26.....

    Rather variable stat results may need to come in the form of things like: percent chance to critical, bonus healing, final AC, item weight(?) or regen  modifiers.  The super rare/good results can incorporate click effects that may or may not need to be recharged.  Having the DPS on a weapon be one of the variables is a little dangerous for balance if you are not careful.  As you are familiar with PoE “increase” effects are good but “more” effects can get out of wack.

     

    Thanks for the response.  You could have 7 damage tiers between 8 and 26 with each tier having a variance of 5 (i.e. first tier is 8-12) and the mean increasing by 2 for each tier.  

    I do like the idea of adding proc or click effects to the pool as a way of increasing mod variety.  These could also have tiers (lesser, moderate, standard, greater, etc etc.)

     

    FWIW I realize the chance of a system like this making it into P:RotF is pretty low.  Still one can dream.


    This post was edited by zoltar at March 26, 2018 10:11 AM PDT
    • 557 posts
    March 26, 2018 10:54 AM PDT

    Players participated in crafting in very early EQ days because the player-made armour and jewellery were quite good at level.   It was common for tanks to start off by purchasing banded armour.  I used to make good coin travelling from zone to zone with my little enchanter selling jewellery.  I made some cash and I had a lot of fun meeting new people as I peddled my wares.

    The fundamental problem was that many crafting skills were irrelevant to the player community as the items were relatively poor compared to what you could obtain by adventuring.  In some cases, such as baking/brewing, the items made didn't have much more than role-play value until much later when major stat foods such as the Misty Thicket Picnic were introduced.  I don't think there was a single player-made weapon introduced to EQ that was really desirable at any level.   Decent player-made armour was the exception and certainly never worn beyond level 35 or so.

    The number one thing to make crafting interesting is to ensure that the items you will be making have some intrinsic value to the players.

    I've always maintained that the best possible system would have the best in slot items created by players from rare dungeon drops.   Rather than drop the Breastplate of Uberness, the dragon would drop a scale which would be combined with other ingredients to craft the breastplate.   Rather than drop the ultimate sword, the boss drops a rare ore which must be forged by the best craftsmen, hammered into shape and tempered in dragon blood.  You haven't made adventuring any less rewarding and you've introduced a huge incentive for social interaction.

    If player-made items aren't among the best, then the long process of becoming a master craftsperson simply isn't worth the effort.  I believe this is the primary reason that most crafting systems have failed in past games.  

    • 313 posts
    March 26, 2018 11:59 AM PDT

    Celandor said:I've always maintained that the best possible system would have the best in slot items created by players from rare dungeon drops.   Rather than drop the Breastplate of Uberness, the dragon would drop a scale which would be combined with other ingredients to craft the breastplate.   Rather than drop the ultimate sword, the boss drops a rare ore which must be forged by the best craftsmen, hammered into shape and tempered in dragon blood.  You haven't made adventuring any less rewarding and you've introduced a huge incentive for social interaction.

    If player-made items aren't among the best, then the long process of becoming a master craftsperson simply isn't worth the effort.  I believe this is the primary reason that most crafting systems have failed in past games.  

    Fundamentally I like the idea you put forth.  What I wouldn't want to be part of that processes is requiring somene to craft 50 copper bracers, 50 copper helmets, 50 copper breastplates, (repeat with silver, steel, mithirl, etc) along with hours and hours of mindless mat farmng in order to level up a crafting skill to the point where you can make an interesting end-game item from a rare drop.  

    • 1315 posts
    March 26, 2018 12:27 PM PDT

    Good stuff here from everyone.  If I remember correctly in the first couple of years of DaOC crafting was really the only way to have good end game gear and it degraded.  Crafting was a central point of the game and didn’t feel painful or forced, though admittedly I only had EQ to compare to at the time.

    In a different thread I brought up the idea of raid bosses dropping smaller than we are used to loot tables.  The items on those loot tables could be used as dropped and would save resources if they could be.  Once those who could use it as dropped had theirs, rather than letting it rot the item could then be salvaged to a special core.  That core could be used in crafting to make the other weapon/armor equivalent items.  That way the itemization would not need to be too specifically balanced across a raid as the items could be reforged into what the raid actually needed/wanted.

    Raid cores will help the hardcore guilds to be done with content earlier so that softcore and casual guilds will have greater access to the content.

    • 83 posts
    March 26, 2018 1:39 PM PDT

    Having the end-result of a crafting combine's (hell, any item) stats vary based on RNG is the worst part of Diabloesque hack'n'slashes like Path of Exile. I'd rather have the recipe be consistently mediocre instead of having a bad roll make it only kinda good instead of excellent. It's about the emotional investment. If the item is consistent, obviously you know what to expect. You'll succeed the combine and make exactly the item you were expecting, or you fail the combine and get nothing (or some salvaged materials). The emotional impact of succeeding at a high-level combine only to find you've rolled damn near the minimum possible stats of the outcome is devastating. Like winning the lottery, then finding out that you only won the week after the last jackpot, and considering the three hundred other people who also won, you only got about a hundred-twenty bucks.

    Objectively, obviously winning a hundred-twenty bucks is a good thing! You paid less then ten for the lotto ticket. However, you can't exactly brag about it. People kinda laugh at you when you tell the story. Ever try and sell a 11/10 Barbarian torch in Diablo II? You are literally laughed at, or given offers only by people who don't understand how item stat variability works and, as a result, have no idea that everything they have for trade is utter garbage.

    Trust me. Path of Exile has a crafting system, yes, but it's not one that appeals to people who like to craft, or like roleplaying as a craftsman. It's pretty heavily apparent that the OP isn't one of those people, based on his complaints about the crafting systems of other games. I haven't actually played Path of Exile beyond a small involvement when it was in Open Beta, but from what he's listed above, it's only technically crafting in that it makes items and has methods and systems in place to adjust the outputs. He actually hits on the metaphor directly in his explanation! It's not crafting, it's gambling, or to put it more generously, an independent game that rewards you with lootboxes for PoE.

    I'll readily admit that a lot of MMOs miss the mark with their crafting systems, and Everquest most of all had some serious problems with investment vs. reward, but if any of you actually listen to anything I have to say as a longtime crafting enthusiast, listen to this: Maybe don't take advice from someone who hates what he's giving advice about. The reason so many games have you go out into the world for resources (something that Pantheon has already said they will be heavily supporting in the Feburary 2018 newsletter) is because there's a sizable portion of the playerbase that enjoys doing that. Spending hours and hours just wandering around a visually interesting environment while doing a repetitive, simple task? It's like fishing, it's something you can do to relax and think about other stuff, and it forces you to engage with the game world in a way that fighting monsters just doesn't do.

    • 313 posts
    March 26, 2018 5:10 PM PDT

    Darchias said:

    I'll readily admit that a lot of MMOs miss the mark with their crafting systems, and Everquest most of all had some serious problems with investment vs. reward, but if any of you actually listen to anything I have to say as a longtime crafting enthusiast, listen to this: Maybe don't take advice from someone who hates what he's giving advice about. The reason so many games have you go out into the world for resources (something that Pantheon has already said they will be heavily supporting in the Feburary 2018 newsletter) is because there's a sizable portion of the playerbase that enjoys doing that. Spending hours and hours just wandering around a visually interesting environment while doing a repetitive, simple task? It's like fishing, it's something you can do to relax and think about other stuff, and it forces you to engage with the game world in a way that fighting monsters just doesn't do.

     

    I don't hate crafting.  I hate the boring, bland aspects of it that for some reason you seem to be fond of.  I think it's a waste to develop a system where everyone is churning out the exact same boilerplate items.  And I think the reason so many games have players mindlessly running around clicking resource nodes is definitely not because players just love it, but rather because it's a huge time sink for players and easy to develop.  


    RNG based crafting is just as much crafting as any cookie-cutter system.  Ultimately crafting is about gathering resources, using your knowledge the game economy, supply, demand, personal needs, etc. to make decision about what to produce, then using your knowledge of the crafting mechanics to produce the best possible items to sell/use/gift.  All this applies to RNG based crafting the same if not more than a non-rng craft system.  I love this stuff.  I don't dislike crafting.  I dislike your ideal of crafting.  You can dismiss what I proposed as just gambling, but I could similarly dismiss your take as soulless assembly-line drone-work.  

     

    I'm not going to say that you aren't right about there being value in giving people non-combat things to do in the game world.  If you dig it, then cool.  Have fishing.  Put in bird-watching.  Go gather plants for potions, dyes, etc.  Have farming for food.  Let people deliver packages.  Whatever floats your boat.  But there's no reason to force a bland item crafting system into the game because some people *shudder* like doing menial mindless taks for hours at end.


    This post was edited by zoltar at March 26, 2018 5:11 PM PDT
    • 26 posts
    March 26, 2018 7:04 PM PDT

    Both post have merit… for me I HAYE HATE RNG when it comes to me trying to make something if I have the skill to make something then great I make it or I fail no biggie I can take that but if there is a RNG that can set it where instead of making a nice sword I have a chance of making a warped sword then with the luck I have in all the game I have played I am going to get a warped sword … So no thank you.

    Others may not have my luck or feeling about RNG that is fine this is just my 2CP

    • 201 posts
    March 26, 2018 7:21 PM PDT

    Personally, I want crafting hard and demanding and something that appeals only to dedicated crafters.  Just like Pantheon is supposed be old school and appeal a certain segment, I want crafting the same.  I do not want crafting to appeal to more people, I do not want it to be what some people want it to be to finally get them interested.  If you want to play WoW, then Pantheon should not be for you presumably and I want crafting the same.  Give me Pantheon crafting for the most part and I would be happy.  I do not want a system that make or easily incentivizes everyone to craft.  That is a big failure in a lot of games and their crafting systems...where it is a thing that everyone dabbles in because it is easy and almost a necessary adjunct to adventuring, so everyone does it.  I want dedicated crafting in the way that not everyone will raid because they do not want or can't devote the resources to it. 

     

    This whole idea of:

    Avoid

    1. Encouraging players to ride around for hours clicking on nodes to harvest
    2. Having players craft the same piece of armor/weapon from a template over and over (especially for skill ups, but also to sell)
    3. Produce boilerplate items that are identical or very slight variations

    Do

    1. Produce actual unique items by utilizing a system with random modifiers
    2. make the crafting involve a risk vs reward (preferably by including un-desired mods/stats though possibly outright failure) 
    3. Exponentially rising cost of adding additonal mods
    4. For consumables, the focus should be on establishing a shop that automatically produces items

    does not make a whole lot of sense to me in that they address different facets of crafting.  Having to spend time to obtain resources to craft, and having to invest time crafting items over and over to get better at them and having to make similar items to skill or level up does not address the same aspects as having random modifiers on items, having items cost more as you add more modification to a given piece and auto producing consumables. 

    I want a market for materials where I can invest time or money to obtain them, I want a market where people can profit from harvesting if they do not want to adventure (fighting spammers and gold sellers AGGRESSIVELY is a major factor), I want to have to spend a long time mastering a craft and have it be something valuable, lucrative and sought after that few people want or can attain. 

    However, I also like items getting harder and harder to make as you try to make them more complex or powerful, and have chances of failure and customizable stats and mods. 

    X

    • 1479 posts
    March 27, 2018 2:13 AM PDT

    I think you can't really avoid having people "roam" for ressources as they are found in wild environnements (or already harvested by NPC's if too close from cities), and need some hints on where to get them.

     

    However, the ressource system for crafting, at least some elements (I'd not say for cooking, as cooking include for most part some evident hunting/harvesting that is not meant to be rare in highly populated areas, or npc's would be starving), could be more rare than they used to be in most game.

    I mean, instead of beeing flooded in ressources and crafting a lot of items to increase / obtain a specific rarity, why not making ressources more rare and crafting less of a repetitive chore ? I won't bet on the realistic side of training yourself by doing "less" items, but maybe a good answer to components farming, is to make it component hunting.

    If you need to use triangulation or any non handhold way to discover rare ores, the harvesting part is more about finding the right spot at the right moment, than filling your bags with tons on overweigthed ores.

    One of the aspect of UO's minning I enjoyed was that aspect of beeing harvesting anywhere rocks were presents, but only finding basic material most of the time. Then you tried, square after square, until your found some dark iron, or whatever colored ore it was. Then you knew "I'll melt them in ingots and stack them with what I already have, then make them into some good breastplate I need".

    But you were flooded in iron ore, that's true, and that was the "basic training metal" for most recipes.

    My guess is : What makes harvesting repetitive, is the fact you just have to kneel to get ressources, and never to think or prospect wisely. Harvesting could be more than static nodes, rare nodes, or for FFXIV, static nodes with a low % to show up an illusionary rare items since they respawn as long as you harvest, and you know you WILL end up with some rare material as long as you keep cycling throught them.

     

    However, Most MMO's now include a recycling feature and I really think it's something that should be done. No blacksmith is selling his work when it's uncomplete or not good enough. And none will just trash out materials when the results isn't good enough. Metal smelting is one of the rare cases in crafting, where you have the freedom to make it back into ingots, while tailoring, leatherworking, woodworking let you little room for ressource recovery. A bit of flexibility over theses aspects might be some gameplay compromise to make all crafts equal.

     

    Sorry if I tend to deviate from the topic or from my main idea. I'm quite tired today.

    • 557 posts
    March 27, 2018 5:42 AM PDT

    zoltar said:

    Fundamentally I like the idea you put forth.  What I wouldn't want to be part of that processes is requiring somene to craft 50 copper bracers, 50 copper helmets, 50 copper breastplates, (repeat with silver, steel, mithirl, etc) along with hours and hours of mindless mat farmng in order to level up a crafting skill to the point where you can make an interesting end-game item from a rare drop.  

    I totally agree.  Gaining skill should be about the quests you've done, the variety of items you've made and the regions you've travelled to in order to gain knowledge in your craft by consulting regional craftsmen or finding new recipes.

    The quality of what you produce should be based on your skill level and the quality of the materials that go in the front end.  Ideally, it should also depend on whether you've made that item before, but that would be a lot of additional data for the game to track so I suspect that suggestion is impractical.

    I'm not interested in another crafting system like EQ where you have to click and drag a half dozen items into the crafting window a few hundred times to get a few skill points or minigames where I have to play bop-a-mole to sew a leather jerkin.   Let the crafting system be a first-class citizen and give it the ties to lore and quests that it deserves.

    • 83 posts
    March 27, 2018 6:39 AM PDT

    I mostly agree with the notion that repeating the same recipe over and over is a bad way to skill up. The reason I only mostly agree is because of the way Everquest 2 handled that problem. At the start, people grinded experience in crafting the same way they did in the original Everquest: figuring out the cheapest/easiest recipe for the skill level and making that a thousand times. At some point, they added (or greatly increased, I don't remember off-hand) 'discovery' experience gained from succeeding at a recipe for the first time. This caused two main problems: the 'shopping list' effect, where people just went down the list and crafted each thing once, and a big disparity in crafting experience due to recipe availability (a class like Provisioner or Sage benefited from having a huge variety of recipes, making sure they always gained more recipes before they ran out of the ones they had, compared to the Weaponsmith and Woodworker, who had comparitively few and always had to grind a cheap recipe anyway.)

    The suggested way to handle this (I can't say I came up with it myself, I've seen it a few times in a few places) is to have discovery experience degrade over the first few successes.If you're learning a craft IRL, you learn a lot by making the same thing a few times and ironing out the kinks and flaws in your technique, though obviously after the fifth or sixth perfect product you're going to have to admit you've learned all you can from that thing and probably should have moved on already.

    The reason my previous post talked about my impression that zoltar hated crafting was that he didn't seem to understand that Pantheon, like many MMORPG's, is an RPG. Working with your hands IRL, making your own furniture, or cosplay props, or anything, can get tedious, expensive, and time-consuming. You do it because you love it and the process of doing it, not for what you get out of it. With modern technology, 90% of the time you can get an adequate, maybe even superior product for cheaper just by buying it instead of making it yourself. People who want to roleplay a craftsman know that they have to put in the time.

    It's important to emphasize that I have yet to see a perfect crafting system. If I have, I would have mentioned where I found it and held it up as an example. Any game I've played that had a crafting system has had verious problems, be they small and annoying or profound and unplayable.

    I absolutely believe that crafting in-game should be more rewarding and be less time-consuming than crafting IRL, that much is a no-brainer, but like I said before, the system in Path of Exile isn't a crafting system that can work in a role-playing game. It doesn't reward the people who want to be crafters, it rewards the people who want sick loot. Please make sure the crafting system appeals to crafters.

    • 1315 posts
    March 27, 2018 8:24 AM PDT

    Celandor said:

    I'm not interested in another crafting system like EQ where you have to click and drag a half dozen items into the crafting window a few hundred times to get a few skill points or minigames where I have to play bop-a-mole to sew a leather jerkin.   Let the crafting system be a first-class citizen and give it the ties to lore and quests that it deserves.

    I get that a twitch "bop-a-mole" crafting interaction is not desired but what would you consider a "first-class citizen" crafting experience?  From my perspective [selecting a recipe from a list of known recipes - combine - auto withdrawing materials from your inventory] is the same as [putting random items into a container -  combine].  Both are completely not interactive, the only real difference is that the combine from recipe rather than from a container saves you button clicks.

    An actual interactive crafting process that involves moves and abilities learned from your craft and interactions with the crafting station to produce a variable (note variable is not the same as random) results is a first-class experience.  I’m not trying to sell my idea again.  I’m honestly asking what you are suggesting the process be like.  I am not seeing a third option at the moment other than some form of mini-game (interactive results) or a combine button (predetermined results with RNG). 

    • 3852 posts
    March 27, 2018 8:54 AM PDT

    I agree with Celandor in many ways.

    I would argue that while the details of how a crafting system works is *very* important (how many of us want to be able to craft to maximum tier while afk as in LOTRO?) it may be even more important to assure that crafting is useful. For leveling not just at high level given that Pantheon will have slow leveling and a focus on the journey not just an "endgame".

    Having criticized LOTRO I'll also use it as a good example. At low level crafted gear is a distinct plus. This means little to LOTRO itself since if you blink you miss low level but in a game where low level lasts longer and at least at first you won't have hyper-inflation where most people price crafted items way out of the reach of a genuinely new player, having that kind of gear in Panthon will be an enormous encouragement to people to actually craft. Not just speed-boost their crafting skill while never making anything useful.

    For the record LOTRO leveling is a LOT slower than most MMOs although it also is way too easy and fast.


    This post was edited by dorotea at March 27, 2018 8:54 AM PDT
    • 83 posts
    March 27, 2018 9:04 AM PDT

    It's a challenging question indeed. One of the reasons I endorse node harvesting is that needing to do a bunch of tedious button clicks in order to do a combine (ala old-school Everquest) is also boring and uninteractive. Node harvesting (and really, any form of resource harvesting like camping a specific mob) gives a sense of satisfaction because you're using your time to further your craft. I posit that there's a sweet spot to how much time crafting should take to do, in general. Long, time-consuming resource collection should be balanced by a simple, quick crafting process while a more complex, difficult crafting process should be balanced by a relatively quick and painless collection of resources.

    One of the largest problems Everquest had with this (though believe me, their crafting system had many more problems) was that both resource collection and the crafting process were both time consuming and heavily influenced by RNG, although the implementation of such varied by which specific tradeskill to which you were referring. This was further exacerbated by the relatively low rewards the crafting gave, so Everquest's crafting system as a whole suffered from being extremely time consuming and unrewarding.

    Everquest II kind of went too far the other direction, while their resource harvesting was fairly time-consuming, the nodes were fairly consistent and due to people being limited by which Harvesting profession they had (and needing to grind nodes to farm higher level ones), finding common resources on the player market at trivial prices in huge quantities. Initially the crafting process was limited by the dynamic where multiple professions were needed for subcombines to make anything useful (unless you were a Provisioner), they later removed that requirement. There was also a punishing mini-game where one had to respond to the recipes having random failures and opportunities for bonuses, which would impact the quality of the item. The mini-game was gradually made to be easier over time. So while I would almost describe Everquest II's crafting system as 'good', there were a lot of details that they dropped the ball on (the value of each tradeskill varied widely, the limitation on Harvesting skills made some tradeskills easier and cheaper than others, the loot tables of many nodes punished some tradeskills disproportionately, the eventual changes to the crafting process to streamline it resulted in less of a feeling of accomplishment when a success is gotten, the ridiculously low drop rate on 'rare' materials compared to how good the gear it crafted actually was, etc.)

    I emphasize that there is a sweet spot in 'time it takes to see actual rewards in crafting.' If it's too long, people hate the crafting system and there isn't enough crafters/harvesters to support a robust economy. Too swift and crafting becomes something that basically everybody does and craftsmen can't make a profit because the market is flooded and demand is low. It's a difficult to define area, and I'm excited to see what VR tries to hit that spot.

    • 1315 posts
    March 27, 2018 10:10 AM PDT

    So I put this idea forward to you guys.  First we shift the crafting experience from the final result only to the sub combines and the final based on result quality. The quality of the raw materials for the sub combines sets the quality of the sub combines.  The final combine is the average quality of the sub combines quality rounded up or down based on your crafting level.  The quality levels of the final results sets the item tier.

     

    An example of Scaled mail jerkin:

    1) Leather Chest under layer/Padding

    2) 2 bags of rivets

    3) 4 batches of scales

    4) 2 batches of rings

     

     

    The leather chest padding is made by an outfitter.  The quality of hide that the backing is made from sets its over all strength.  There is an option to use advanced, rune etched, hides to add magical effects and environmental protections.

    The bag of rivets will be fairly universal but the material used will effect the weight of the final product and some scale/padding materials will require specific material rivets.

    The batches of scales dictate the major portion of the AC of the jerkin.  Higher quality scales provide more AC than low quality.  Similar to specialty hides masterwork scales can have runes etched into them in order to add magical effects to the final product.

    The batches of rings are similar to rivets in their effect on the final results with the exception that they also effect the AC.

     

    Assuming all crafting results have the possibility of being: Destroyed, poor, low, average, good, high quality, masterwork.  Items are only destroyed if the variable materials start at poor quality and the combine "fails" otherwise the average material quality is rounded down rather than rounded up on a success.

    A poor quality Scaled Steel Jerkin would be a level 1-8 item

    A low quality scaled Steel Jerkin would be a level 9-15 item

    An average quality Scaled Steel Jerkin would be a level 16-22 item

    A good quality Scaled Steel Jerkin would be a level 23-30 item

    A high quality scaled Steel Jerkin would be a level 31-37 item

    A master craft scaled steel Jerkin would be a 38-44 item

    A high quality runic scaled steel Jerkin would be a 45-49 item

    And a master craft Runic Scale Steel Jerkin would be a level 50 item

    A master craft Mithril Runic Scale Steel Jerkin would be an agility melee level 50 raid quality item.

     

    The ore and hide quality availability roughly matches the level range of the equivalent items.  The best a craft apprentice can make is average quality and the highest a journeyman can craft is high quality normal materials, only a craft master can make masterwork results and only a grand master can make masterwork special material results.  All players can become an apprentice of crafts. Each character can only choose one craft to become a journeyman of.  The crafting class that the player chooses to be a journeyman of will have two options for a master specialty.  As such a Master armor smith can make Average quality leather backing, high quality steel swords and high quality runic steel jerkins.

     

    To level a craft you must use a quality of material that you have a chance to fail. The experience gained for a final combine is based on the number of sub combines required to make the components.  The amount of exp gained is based on the resulting quality item, sub combine or final.  As such a smith apprentice will start by making rivets from poor quality ore until they master the process and can upgrade to working with low quality ore, or they could as an apprentice make a poor quality scaled steel jerkin if they wanted to but it level appropriate.

    I would still like to see some form of active skills gained while learning a crafting being what causes a combine to succed or fail and there for effecting the result qualty and tier.

    • 6 posts
    March 27, 2018 10:53 AM PDT

    How would one handle the number of possible combines?

    In the above example, you show a recipe with 9 inputs, with 1 variable output.  This says to me that the inputs must also be variable?

     

    Wouldn't that create an exponential number of combines for this one recipe?  How do they code that?

    Even if you required the same quality of scales/rivets/rings, and using the example with 4 inputs, with 5 possible qualities on each, you're talking what, 625 possible inputs with 9 variable outputs?

    Just for one recipe... expanding that out to an entire craft, and multiple crafts as well, would create massive amounts of work.

     

    If you restrict to get back to a reasonable amount of inputs to results, you're just back to A+B+C=X

     

    Edit: With further thought, a possible solution would be something like having two modifiers to each item.

    Example

    (quality x level modifier) Basilisk Scale, (craftable, scale)

    Then use that variable for your average.   Something to prevent a higher quality low level component being equal or better to a higher level component with say average quality.


    This post was edited by Apoxar at March 27, 2018 11:15 AM PDT
    • 313 posts
    March 27, 2018 11:14 AM PDT

    antonius said:[my list of do's and don'ts for crafting] dosn't make sense because they address different facets of crafting.  Having to spend time to obtain resources to craft, and having to invest time crafting items over and over to get better at them and having to make similar items to skill or level up does not address the same aspects as having random modifiers on items, having items cost more as you add more modification to a given piece and auto producing consumables. 

    I want a market for materials where I can invest time or money to obtain them, I want a market where people can profit from harvesting if they do not want to adventure (fighting spammers and gold sellers AGGRESSIVELY is a major factor), I want to have to spend a long time mastering a craft and have it be something valuable, lucrative and sought after that few people want or can attain. 

    However, I also like items getting harder and harder to make as you try to make them more complex or powerful, and have chances of failure and customizable stats and mods. 

    X

    They weren't necessarily meant to address the exact same issues.  While the majority of my post was concenred with the process of crafting, I also wanted to express dissatisfaction with the way most MMO's do material resource collection.  With regards to harvesting materials, there are a lot of ways that this could be done that doesn't involve roaming around and clicking on nodes for hours.  On reddit, someone mentioned that in SWG players would buy harvesters and put them at resource locations.  The harvesters would automatically gather resources for you, and there was competition to get your harvesters at the best locations.  

    Or maybe each profession has a guild that you can maintain membership in by doing crafting quests, and you get a certain amount of resources each week according to your status in the guild.  This could also lead to an interesting dynamic where the more members a guild has, the fewer resouces each member gets.  Maybe different guilds would be able to compete over ways to increase the overall incoming resourses.  

    • 313 posts
    March 27, 2018 11:52 AM PDT

    Darchias said:

    The reason my previous post talked about my impression that zoltar hated crafting was that he didn't seem to understand that Pantheon, like many MMORPG's, is an RPG. Working with your hands IRL, making your own furniture, or cosplay props, or anything, can get tedious, expensive, and time-consuming. You do it because you love it and the process of doing it, not for what you get out of it. With modern technology, 90% of the time you can get an adequate, maybe even superior product for cheaper just by buying it instead of making it yourself. People who want to roleplay a craftsman know that they have to put in the time.

    I absolutely believe that crafting in-game should be more rewarding and be less time-consuming than crafting IRL, that much is a no-brainer, but like I said before, the system in Path of Exile isn't a crafting system that can work in a role-playing game. It doesn't reward the people who want to be crafters, it rewards the people who want sick loot. Please make sure the crafting system appeals to crafters.

    And yet, the end result is just as important as the process.  A craftsman might in many ways enjoy the process of making something by hand, but that love is kindled by the knowledge that they are working to make something that is unique.  A cosplay prop maker wouldn't spend hour and hours and hours making something that is identical to one from an assembly line that you can buy at Walmart for $10.  When you look at pictures of an item posted on DIY on reddit or a picture of some great cosplay outfit, you can become amazed at how awesome and unique that thing is.  

    What I find astounding is that you prefer including the tedious process aspect of crafting to the exclusion of the producing unique and inspiring items aspect of crafting.  Also, I think you're getting caught up on analyzing the exact implementation of crafting that path of exile uses without taking into consideration that adapting RNG based crafting to an MMO would allow you to give the system much more of an RPG feel.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at March 27, 2018 11:55 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    March 27, 2018 12:03 PM PDT

    Apoxar said:

    How would one handle the number of possible combines?

    In the above example, you show a recipe with 9 inputs, with 1 variable output.  This says to me that the inputs must also be variable?

     

    Wouldn't that create an exponential number of combines for this one recipe?  How do they code that?

    Even if you required the same quality of scales/rivets/rings, and using the example with 4 inputs, with 5 possible qualities on each, you're talking what, 625 possible inputs with 9 variable outputs?

    Just for one recipe... expanding that out to an entire craft, and multiple crafts as well, would create massive amounts of work.

     

    If you restrict to get back to a reasonable amount of inputs to results, you're just back to A+B+C=X

     

    Edit: With further thought, a possible solution would be something like having two modifiers to each item.

    Example

    (quality x level modifier) Basilisk Scale, (craftable, scale)

    Then use that variable for your average.   Something to prevent a higher quality low level component being equal or better to a higher level component with say average quality.

    Bah, I meant to put an example of how the quality average works.  By assigning 0-6 to the results of a subcombine, 0 being destroyed then poor 1 – masterwork 6 the quality is changed to a number value.

    For the previous example lets assume we have an Average leather padding (3), 2 high quality rivets (5), 3 high quality scales (5) and one good quality scale (4) and 1 High quality and one good quality ring (5) and (4) respectively.  Adding these up we have 3+5+5+5+5+5+4+5+4 for an average of 4.55.  That means that if you were a journeyman smith you could end up with either a Good Quality Scaled Steel Jerkin or a High Quality Scaled Steel jerkin.  A low ranking journeyman is likely to only be able to make a good quality jerkin but a near master level smith will have a much better chance of making a high quality result.

    Once you start dealing with the enchanted versions only masterwork quality sub components can be enchanted so the base quality is 6 but a failure will still round it down to a high quality final result needing only two versions.   Most of smithing will be Steel, only switching to other materials when at very high levels or making area specific weapons and armor.  Look to the cultural/deity specific armor from EQ 1 if you want to see the number of different variation for effectively the same recipe has had in the past when you consider the enchantments.

    From an item modeling perspective all scaled mail jerkins would use the same base model.  The metal color and luster would be based on the base metal used, the grunge overlay layer of the texture would be based on the quality and possible enchantment etchings would add a small icon to the skin file centered on each of the scales, that icon could be different based on which enchantment was built into the armor.  Following this concept for Leather, Leather lamellar, chain, scaled mail and plate will give you a huge variation of item appearances for effectively only the modeling work of 5 different base models and a few color pallet setting iterations.  I am behind the times on if it is better to have all the iterations pre rendered and stored client side or if the game engine can render the different layers on the fly so only the base layer files are saved on the client side.

    We could just swap out 1-6 quality for bronze, iron, steel, mithril, thorium, unobtainium but then the salvage process will make a mess of different results and you are left success or failure as the only crafting result options.  I had hoped that there would be a way to upgrade larger quantities of a lower quality raw materials into a smaller quantity of higher quality raw material with adequate skill and an expenditure of secondary resources.

    Additionally if all breast plates have fundamentally the same recipe regardless of the material or drop location then the salvage results will be fairly easy to codify.  Carry this through all in game items and you simplify what otherwise might be a very complicated system.  Bonus points if your Journeyman and Master crafts are able to get more salvage out of items that they could possibly craft themselves.

    Sorry for another wall of text,

    Trasak

    • 9 posts
    March 27, 2018 4:41 PM PDT

    I just want to say that I was a crafter in EQ1 before it made any "sense" to be one.  Banded and even the original plate armor were for noobs only, you could make gold slowly selling that, but far slower than "actually playing" the game.  Yet, I skilled up anyways.  When the first round of cultural recipies came out, I was one of the few people that could make it.  Yet hardly anyone was interested, because although viable for a twink character (no level restrictions), it was neither the best for a twink nor was it inexpensive for one.  But when the second round of cultural recipies came out, everything changed.  My services were in high demand.  High end guilds were throwing their precious blue diamonds at me to hit combine on their mats.  I made bank.  I was one of the richest players in the game that didn't play in the EC tunnel all day (although I didn't tell people this, telling them invites competition).


    So I say, make the crafting initially only for noobs.  Finish the rest of the game before going further.  I'll level up anyways, even when you have to run from High Pass basement carrying unstackable raw ore to the cultural forge in Freeport just to hit combine 5 times in the hope of 1 skillup.  No one else but me will do it, but I'll do it.  Then, at your leisure, add valuable crafting to the game.  I'll be ready to make a lot of money.  Making crafting easy is bad.  Then anyone will do it.  Making it obviously useful is bad, then everyone will do it.  Make crafting hard, and make it so that only the eccentrics will want to learn how, and then you'll have something. 

    What's silly about other MMO's crafting systems is when everyone bothers with them.  That makes no sense and is a waste of resources, like everyone knowing how to fly an airplane, or how to dig a ditch.  Most people shouldn't care about how those things are done, but should be willing to pay for those services should the need arise.

    • 313 posts
    March 27, 2018 9:24 PM PDT

    Boildown, 

    I understand the desire for crafting to not be ubiquitous, but it seems like making crafting intentionally bad early on then buffing it is a pretty terrible way to artifically limit the number of crafters.  

     

     

    • 83 posts
    March 29, 2018 1:12 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    Boildown, 

    I understand the desire for crafting to not be ubiquitous, but it seems like making crafting intentionally bad early on then buffing it is a pretty terrible way to artifically limit the number of crafters. 

    On this we agree whole-heartedly.

    zoltar said:

    And yet, the end result is just as important as the process.  A craftsman might in many ways enjoy the process of making something by hand, but that love is kindled by the knowledge that they are working to make something that is unique.  A cosplay prop maker wouldn't spend hour and hours and hours making something that is identical to one from an assembly line that you can buy at Walmart for $10.  When you look at pictures of an item posted on DIY on reddit or a picture of some great cosplay outfit, you can become amazed at how awesome and unique that thing is.  

    What I find astounding is that you prefer including the tedious process aspect of crafting to the exclusion of the producing unique and inspiring items aspect of crafting.  Also, I think you're getting caught up on analyzing the exact implementation of crafting that path of exile uses without taking into consideration that adapting RNG based crafting to an MMO would allow you to give the system much more of an RPG feel.  

    Well, we're just going to have to disagree in some respects. Producing something unique is, undoubtedly, a powerful motivating factor in crafting. I do agree on this. The problem lies in the fact it is an MMO. It's essentially impossible to create a system in such a game to make something truly unique, so you focus on the idea of making things that are technically unique through randomizing some of the numbers on the end product. I honestly don't see any difference in the emotional aspect of making something unique in these two systems.

    You know, I just spent an hour or more typing up a long-winded explanation, comparing other game's crafting systems, breaking down the emotional impact of every given result of the crafting process, and talking about how emergent gameplay shaped the Diablo II economy, but I realize it wasn't actually delivering the message I wanted to send and I didn't need to say all of it. So let me be more brief. The 'craftsman' power fantasy has many different forms. The one you seem to prefer is the 'artist' craftsman, somebody who makes something wholly unique and is given accolades for it's creation. Creation is central to this fantasy as it means the thing they are recognized for isn't something shallow, it's something they did, something that they poured their blood, sweat, and tears into and is something they can physically point to and say, "I made that." That is a valid desire, and I wouldn't want anyone to say differently.

    There exists, however, another perspective that you do not seem to be aware of. The 'passion' craftsman would rather have complete control over the process and make something that they intend to make, rather than making something unique. The thing they make may be unique anyway, but making something unique is not the goal, it's to make what they want to make. The former fantasy is had by those who feel their skills, knowledge, or self is undervalued and wish to have the recognition that doing something genuinely new brings them. The latter is had by those who feel they have little control over their life and wish to do something that they want to do, rather than something they must do or have to do. The journey is just as, or perhaps more important than the destination. This particular fantasy is extremely common among MMO players because an escape from reality is one of the core attractions to the genre. The feeling of control over their lives is something that nearly every part of an MMORPG delivers on, and that's why a time-consuming collection process is emphasized and making 'unique' items are not. Making a crafting system that's complex enough to allow the creation of unique results is difficult, if not impossible, and adding RNG to the end process removes a large element of control from the player, which disrupts the core attraction of the entire genre.

    Loot drops from killing monsters is a little different because the actual reward of fighting a monster is fighting the monster, the gameplay experience itself. The item is more of a bonus and a way to keep a social economy moving. I will readily admit that it would be nearly impossible to make a crafting system that is as inherently engaging as the combat in a game, and I would never ask them to try. The item result of crafting is a core part of the emotional experience for the craftsman, whereas the core part of the adventurer is the killing of the monster, not the loot it drops. The actual process of the crafting and the loot drop are both parts of the emotional experience, but they definitely not the most important part.

    The tl:dr here is that there is a reason so many MMOs have similar crafting systems, and it's not just because they're easy to program. It's something that people actually do like, and I don't think it will be changing soon.