Forums » Pantheon Classes

Future possibility of switching a class in game?

    • 8 posts
    March 3, 2018 11:10 AM PST

    I played an Ogre Warrior in EQ from vanilla all the way to Omens of War.  I always role played being a follower of Erollisi Marr and wanting to be a Paladin.  It was fun but part of me really did wish there was  some shining moment of gameplay were it could be a possibility.

    Enter EQ2 and the Betrayer quests.  I had thought my wish had come true and to some extint it had, however I found that the overall design of the EQ2 Betrayal quests were boring time sinks.  Yes you could join the other city but it just didn't seem to matter in the end.

    I understand and completely agree from a lore and gameplay perspective that races and classes should have defined rolls.  I just wish there was room for the rare game play moment that would allow an exception to the rule.

    I always envisioned in EQ some type of rare event (when GMs use to log on and do those kinds of crazy things) that led to a raid encounter were a lowly Ogre Warrior could prove himself worthy of being a Paladin.  The Betrayer storylines were a nice thought to their players but just didn't seem impactful or really defining.

    I want all of the Pantheon classes polished and balanced with their racial restrictions before any consideration is implemented to this type of addition to the game, however if at some point in the future it would be a consideration would be fantastic. 

    Either way I am very much looking forward to this game!

     

    • 1459 posts
    March 3, 2018 11:21 AM PST

    I think the Progeny system might offer something similar to what you are asking.  I'm guessing it will work something like this: (though we don't have official info yet)...

     

    Once you reach max lvl with your Warrior you will have the option to restart at lvl 1 with some bonus perks.  You could choose to restart as a Paladin, with all the same gear you earned on your War (unsure if no drop gear will carry over)...plus some small added perk...maybe something like extra bonus constitution or strength etc.


    This post was edited by philo at March 3, 2018 11:22 AM PST
    • 809 posts
    March 5, 2018 8:55 AM PST

    I could be wrong but I think the progeny system will give perks to a new character, not start over the same one.  Kind of like a hereditary inheritance of power/skill passed on to your next of kin/decendants (progeny.)  But I do agree that the ablity to unlock previously exclusive race/class combinations would be an amazing perk through this system.  *shrug*

    • 1459 posts
    March 5, 2018 11:25 AM PST

    Darch said:

    I could be wrong but I think the progeny system will give perks to a new character, not start over the same one.  Kind of like a hereditary inheritance of power/skill passed on to your next of kin/decendants (progeny.) 

    You must not be familiar with these types of systems from other games?  The explanation has been given that you are starting over on a character that is the offspring of the max lvl character...and that has lead to a lot of confusion in multiple forum topics from people who don't grasp how these type of systems work, so you arent alone. It's all in your perspective. 

    You get to max lvl and have the option to restart with bonus perks.

    The only thing keeping it from being the same character is a name change (and we dont even know for sure if the name will change at this point, probably?).  It is in actuality the same character starting over from the very begining with added perks.

    If you want to justify it by saying the new character is the offspring of the old character and not the same that's fine.  That is a choice of perspective (roleplayers will appreciate that I'm sure) but those of us who have played through similar systems before understand that there is no difference.  Unsure if I explained that well?  Let me know if further clarification is needed.

    But I do agree that the ablity to unlock previously exclusive race/class combinations would be an amazing perk through this system.  *shrug*

    This is something that has been mentioned as unlikely.  Maybe it is a possibility down the line but we will see.  I think the most you can hope for is for your warrior to have the option to restart as a Paladin of a standard race for the class.

     

     


    This post was edited by philo at March 6, 2018 11:11 AM PST
    • 809 posts
    March 5, 2018 11:47 AM PST

    philo said:

    Darch said:

    I could be wrong but I think the progeny system will give perks to a new character, not start over the same one.  Kind of like a hereditary inheritance of power/skill passed on to your next of kin/decendants (progeny.) 

    You must not be familiar with these types of systems from other games?  The explanation has been given that you are starting over on a character that is the offspring of the max lvl character...and that has lead to a lot of confusion in multiple forum topics from people who don't grasp how these type of systems work, so you arent alone. It's all in your perspective. 

    You get to max lvl and have the option to restart with bonus perks.

    The only thing keeping it from being the same character is a name change (and we dont even know for sure if the name will change at this point, probably?).  It is in actuality the same character starting over from the very begining with added perks.

    If you want to justify it by saying the new character is the offspring of the old character and not the same that's fine.  That is a choice of perspective (roleplayers will appreciate that I'm sure) but those of us who have played through similar systems before understand that there is no difference.  Unsure if I explained that well?  Let me know if further clarification is needed.

    But I do agree that the ablity to unlock previously exclusive race/class combinations would be an amazing perk through this system.  *shrug*

    This is something that has been mentioned as unlikely.  Maybe it is a possibility down the line but we will see.  I think the most you can hope for is for your Ogre warrior to have the option to restart as a Paladin of a standard race for the class.

    You are correct that I have no experience with other games that had any system like this.  I personally know that I will not be playing my max level character over again as a level 1 regardless of any perks if the leveling system is anything similar to original EQ.  I would rather play a new character and always maintain the option of logging onto my max level character.  I can just imagine people that I've played with for years messaging me "hey bud, we need a tank for this lvl 50 dungeon and I got excited when I saw you online!"  And then I would reply back "Well, I'm level 12 now, can you guys wait another 8 months for me?"  lol

    • 1459 posts
    March 5, 2018 12:52 PM PST

    Darch said:

     

    You are correct that I have no experience with other games that had any system like this.  I personally know that I will not be playing my max level character over again as a level 1 regardless of any perks if the leveling system is anything similar to original EQ.  I would rather play a new character and always maintain the option of logging onto my max level character.  I can just imagine people that I've played with for years messaging me "hey bud, we need a tank for this lvl 50 dungeon and I got excited when I saw you online!"  And then I would reply back "Well, I'm level 12 now, can you guys wait another 8 months for me?"  lol

    That is where balancing the perks comes into play.  The perks have to be enough to incentivize some players to replay through all of the content...but not so much that everyone feels like they have to (though I'm guessing some people wouldn't want to relevel no matter how large the benefit).

    If your friends really want to play with you at lvl 12 they should be able to delevel themselves using the mentor system...but ya, not the other way around.

    • 3377 posts
    March 5, 2018 8:25 PM PST

    Or you can create a /toggle that allows players to utilize progeny without having to sacrifice their main (Allow players to toggle between parent/progeny while in a major city).  I think it would be easier to balance perks this way since players wouldn't have to pay the massive cost of permanently retiring a character.  It's been stated many times that the perks won't be that significant.  Balancing relatively insignificant rewards with a massive cost seems like a pretty daunting task, for the exact reason that Darch explained.  I feel pretty strongly that a lot of players will share that sentiment and if permanent retirement is going to be a thing, progeny won't be utilized anywhere near it's true potential.  The more players who utilize it, the better, IMO.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 5, 2018 8:29 PM PST
    • 1459 posts
    March 6, 2018 8:05 AM PST

    I know you have been beating the toggle drum in numerous threads. Talk about making it a requirement...that does it.  It will no longer be optional in the mind of most players .  People don't want to feel forced to lvl an alt to earn perks on their main.  It will piss some people off.  A major part of the system is that it has to be considered optional.

    The more players who utilize it, the better, IMO.

    I don't agree with this ^.  These type of systems are put in place primarily for the players who play through content quickly and run out of incentive to play.  It is not necessary to create a system that is utilized by most players. It is ok that it is a niche system that not everyone participates in...similar to crafting or raiding or mentoring etc. (Edit: I feel like VR must already know this.)

    Also, a toggle takes most of the penalty away...which is the reason why the player earned the bonus perks in the first place.  That seems like a very "easy mode" version of the system.


    This post was edited by philo at March 6, 2018 9:06 AM PST
    • 8 posts
    March 6, 2018 9:41 AM PST
    Thanks for all the replies. I have done some limited reading on the Progeny system. This far out from implementation I would guess that nothing is 100% set in stone.

    I am of the opinion that if it does alter gameplay dramatically such as permanently retiring my max level character to allow me to make an Ogre Paladin (just an example) then that seems like reasonable cost investment. I say that considering my experience with Vanilla EQ as a warrior with the nasty xp penalty (Ogre) and inability to solo. That would make me feel like my decision to do so much more meaningful.

    Again as I stated above I did not care for the Betrayal quests in EQ2 because they felt like meaningless grinds. (I remember how long it took to become Allied to N Freeport in EQ).

    One thing I have not seen mentioned yet is if anyone asked if the Progeny system will unlock a new class similar to how Jedi unlocked in Galaxies.
    • 2575 posts
    March 6, 2018 10:07 AM PST

    kosten07 said: Thanks for all the replies. I have done some limited reading on the Progeny system. This far out from implementation I would guess that nothing is 100% set in stone. I am of the opinion that if it does alter gameplay dramatically such as permanently retiring my max level character to allow me to make an Ogre Paladin (just an example) then that seems like reasonable cost investment. I say that considering my experience with Vanilla EQ as a warrior with the nasty xp penalty (Ogre) and inability to solo. That would make me feel like my decision to do so much more meaningful. Again as I stated above I did not care for the Betrayal quests in EQ2 because they felt like meaningless grinds. (I remember how long it took to become Allied to N Freeport in EQ). One thing I have not seen mentioned yet is if anyone asked if the Progeny system will unlock a new class similar to how Jedi unlocked in Galaxies.

    Definitely not set in stone, we actually don't know anything about it really nor how it will work. 

     

    I'd seriously consider giving up a max level character to be allowed to roll a normally locked race/class combo too. 

     

    (Ogre Warrior in EQ only had a 5% exp penalty :P ) 

    • 8 posts
    March 6, 2018 10:17 AM PST
    True but those long down times waiting to heal sitting on your butt while waiting for a group while you watched a druid leisurely run by with guards chasing them was brutal! ;)
    • 1459 posts
    March 6, 2018 10:21 AM PST

    Here is a quote from Kils in regards to the possibility of unlocking a new race through the progeny system...unlikely but not completely out of the question:

    Kilsin said: There hasn't been anything said in this regard, the basic Progeny principle is to just create a child/level 1 character of your max levelled character's race that you are about to retire permanently. I have heard a few community members show interest in mixing races and that is something we can discuss later when Progeny is ready to tested but for now, it is just a copy of your character's race."

    We should understand that this type of system is usually instated in order to extend the life of content by giving players an incentive to replay through content instead of staying bottlenecked at the lvl cap.  It is usually players who run out of content quickly who would most utilize this system, though there could be other scenarios where people want to restart...maybe for roleplaying reasons etc. (like in the case of the Warrior wanting to become a Paly). That isn't the primary reason behind this type of system however. 

    It is mostly for player retention over the long term where a player might become bored and quit the game or take a break due to lack of content.


    This post was edited by philo at March 6, 2018 10:49 AM PST
    • 2575 posts
    March 6, 2018 11:09 AM PST

    True but I think it's something that would satisfy a lot of players and seems like it would be one of the biggest possible incentives for a lot of people to participate in progeny (people love chances to be more rare/unique) while not offering increases in combat/player power. I see it come up often enough as a desire and it might extend further to satisfy those who complain about limited race selection for classes like Paladin and Cleric. 

     

     

    • 1459 posts
    March 6, 2018 11:35 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    True but I think it's something that would satisfy a lot of players and seems like it would be one of the biggest possible incentives for a lot of people to participate in progeny (people love chances to be more rare/unique) while not offering increases in combat/player power. I see it come up often enough as a desire and it might extend further to satisfy those who complain about limited race selection for classes like Paladin and Cleric. 

     

    I agree Iks, having that option would make more people want to utilize progeny I'm sure.  At the very least not being restricted to the original characters race would be nice.

    I have played 2 games with similar systems, neither allowed you to unlock class/race combos that weren't previously available (though one of them didn't have race/class restrictions to begin with). 

    I wonder why? 

    Faction issues might be a concern but that could be worked out.  We wouldn't want there to be a scenario where 1 race was considered the best for a class (like has happened over and over again in mmos)...but that race is locked until you have played through to max level previously.  That might be discouraging to new players.

    Because player retention is the primary concern, maybe a lot of optional additions to these systems are not usually considered? All that matters is  that there are enough options to keep people playing.  The reason for its implementation isn't targeted at all players so other options may be an afterthought if they don't add much benefit financially? Only the portion of the playerbase that would be lost without this type of system is all that matters?

    If it doesn't increase the games funding maybe it isn't worth the devs time? 


    This post was edited by philo at March 6, 2018 11:52 AM PST
    • 3377 posts
    March 6, 2018 3:38 PM PST

    Here is a quote from Brad where it was mentioned that permanent retirement is not 100% set in stone:

    "First, does such a system really require that the older character be permanently retired?  I remember my earlier characters and how proud I was of them -- I didn't log them in very often because I was more interested in leveling up my newer characters -- but I did log them in occasionally to show them off and perhaps even participate in some adventure.  If I couldn't do this because my character was inaccessible, how would that make me feel?  Probably not so good.

    But if the higher level player isn't retired, is it fair to allow that person to create alts with some added benefits?  I honestly don’t see where it’s not – if you do, please speak up.  So for the sake of this discussion, I'm willing to remove the retirement part and think about it for a while -- is there something I'm missing?

    And the last big question that keeps coming up is 'just what are these augmentations, these advantages?'  And will they create an imbalance?  Will these alts be crazy powerful and damage the balance and fun of the lower level game?  Well, that's the easiest one to answer:  no, of course we couldn't let that happen.  I'm confident that whatever these advantages might be that they could be measurably beneficial, truly noticeable, yet not so powerful that balance is harmed or that nobody will want to group with regular characters.  

    Anyway, that's pretty much what I wanted to bring up in hopes that people keep talking about this proposed system and how it might work (or how it might not).  The big question being, of course, is retirement really a necessary part of the system?  It's certainly a big negative to many people and I have to ask, what is the positive?  What does the system lose or what breaks or what doesn't make sense if the original character is still around and playable?  Or, if a sacrifice must be made, perhaps it’s not about retiring a high level character but rather sacrificing powerful items in a ritual that results in their alts (offspring) having special advantages.  This could be a great item sink, and while it would sting to lose some great items, you still get to play your old character if you want to."

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3949/progeny-tweak

     

    *Edit  --  Just wanted to mention that me and Philo are in complete disagreement on how this feature should be leveraged.  I am strongly opposed to the idea of permanent character retirement being a required component to participate.  Call it easy mode or whatever you want but the toggle worked phenomenally in FFXI because it took a really long time to re-level.  There are a ton of incentives that could be associated with players participating in progeny and I think it makes zero sense to gate it behind some massive penalty when the rewards are purposely insignificant.  The positive effect of player participation is monumental for server health.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 6, 2018 4:00 PM PST
    • 1459 posts
    March 6, 2018 6:48 PM PST

    Ya, you keep bringing up the toggle so often that I stopped replying to it months ago ;D hah, and I know we have discussed this before 187...but since you replied right after my post I thought I would reply this time.

    But you know me, I'm always open to discussion. Can you respond to some of my points?  Its been awhile so you may have answered these before and I have forgotten:

     

    1)A toggle will make it non-optional in the view of many.  People will expect you to level an alt to gain perks on your main if the penalty is so minor.  Making some players feel like they are required to level an alt when they may not want to seems counter productive.  It could potentially turn people away who don't want to play an alt.  Having a harsh penalty makes the rest of the community understand why someone might not want to participate.

    2)If the penalty is so minor why would you even gain perks?  Just let people level an alt like normal.  You shouldn't gain perks without some sort of inverse penalty.

    3)Why would anyone level an alt not using the progeny system if that is an option and it is a toggle and you get perks?  Doesn't this make normal alts obsolete?

    4)How would you feel about multiple tiers of progeny?  toggle and full retirement with rewards based on the sacrifice.

     

    I guess maybe one of the main points I'm not grasping is #3.  If you answered it before I have forgotten.


    This post was edited by philo at March 6, 2018 7:10 PM PST
    • 3377 posts
    March 6, 2018 10:28 PM PST

    1)  Leveling to max should take a lot of time and effort, potentially hundreds of hours.  Please keep in mind that I would be willing to sacrifice the parent character after the progeny hits max.  The idea of having to do it beforehand is cringeworthy.

    2)  See above.  I am fine with sacrificing a character when it makes sense to do so.  The sacrifice should not be a prerequisite.  I'll happily sacrifice items or currency just to create the progeny, but I don't like the idea of sacrificing the parent until the progeny can take their place as a max level adventurer.

    3)  We already know that we'll be limited to a single tradeskill per character.  This could extend to the progeny.  (If the parent is a blacksmith, the progeny is limited to the blacksmith profession.)  Rolling alts would allow you to level a second character on the same account that can be leveraged as a second tradeskiller.  It's also been stated that the game will use various forms of "lockouts" with certain content.  When you roll an alt, you can experience that content multiple times on the same account whereas parent/progeny would share lockouts.  Alts can also be used to obtain additional bank space, pursue different faction paths, or complete the same quests that the primary character did.  The parent/progeny would share the same bank space, faction scores, and completed quests.  Alts can be used for multi-boxing on a separate account.  You wouldn't be able to multi-box your parent/progeny together.  Alts can be used to watch for important spawns or allow players to keep a tab on multiple regional auction houses or trade districts.  You can't do that with parent/progeny because they can never co-exist.

    4)  I would be fine with multiple tiers of sacrifice if it's based on items or currency.  This is assuming that all players must sacrifice the parent character when the progeny achieves max level.  In a nutshell, the parent/progeny would be "merged" when the progeny hits max.  The toggle option would be removed until the player decides to start a new progeny and the old progeny becomes the new parent.

    The main painpoint is requiring players to sacrifice their max-level character as a prerequisite.  You're going to see players who would probably enjoy participating in the system, but guess what ... they have friends!  The friends they leveled up with, the friends in their guild.  They shouldn't have to choose between one or the other.  If they have to sacrifice the parent just to start the progeny, they wouldn't be able to play with their max level friends again until the progeny hits max.  If they are in a raiding guild, their spot on the roster may end up getting replaced with someone else.  I understand the idea of requiring players to just work around that, and I think it's insane.  I don't want to see progeny be a feature I consider after I'm completely bored with the game and have nothing else better to do.  I want to work on my progeny character during my spare time.  I would want to continue grouping/raiding on the parent character and fulfilling my role as a team member as my primary focus.

    I understand that we disagree on some of these details.  You think it's important that players must make this massive sacrifice in order to achieve the benefits.  If that's what it comes down to, sure, I'll figure it out.  It will be miserable, but I'll do it.  Most people won't.  There are so many more benefits to this feature that you seem to undervalue.  The health of each server will be improved if more people participate in the progeny system.  It stimulates the economy in multiple ways (equipment/crafting/harvesting supply vs demand), it helps keep lower level tiers of content populated with players, and it allows veterans to consistently interact with new players.  This is all in addition to perhaps the most important aspects of all which are enhanced replay value and broader horizontal progression opportunities.  All in all, I think it's a fair compromise that players have to permanently retire the parent after the progeny achieves max level.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 6, 2018 11:04 PM PST
    • 13 posts
    March 7, 2018 7:01 AM PST

    oneADseven said:

    There are so many more benefits to this feature that you seem to undervalue.  The health of each server will be improved if more people participate in the progeny system.  It stimulates the economy in multiple ways (equipment/crafting/harvesting supply vs demand), it helps keep lower level tiers of content populated with players, and it allows veterans to consistently interact with new players.  This is all in addition to perhaps the most important aspects of all which are enhanced replay value and broader horizontal progression opportunities.  All in all, I think it's a fair compromise that players have to permanently retire the parent after the progeny achieves max level.

     

    I agree with every point that oneADseven has made in his post.  The theory behind the progeny system is a great one for the health of the server, but to make it appealing to more people having the 'teir payments' for that progeny would be amazing.  I personally am the type of player who falls madly in love with my main, I like to search out and complete everything on my main.  Alts tend to get no love from me.

    However!  I have to admit the idea of my main 'having a child' who grows up and eventually takes their place -- now that's just story worthy.  I love it!  But oneADseven makes good points.  I don't want to have to leave friends (or get left by them) when I sacrifice my beloved main in order to make the child.  Not when there is content that my group needs me for!  That child?  It would be a side dabbling.  But to be fair, I wouldn't roll up an alt as a side dabbling, it's too much time and effort - but the progeny story is cool enough to get my interest, because it ties back to my main.  If once it maxes out it requires the sacrificing of my main?  Well... Every hero retires some day I suppose.  I think it would lessen the sting considrably doing it at max level though instead of at the begining.  

    • 1459 posts
    March 7, 2018 9:44 AM PST

    ok, I know we have discussed this before and we have a difference of opinion...but this response really opened my eyes to how different it is.  I really think it has to do with you wanting a toggle system similar to FF11...which I never played... and me expecting progeny to be similar to other, progeny type of, systems I have played in a couple other games which you never played.  Different perspectives.

    After reading through, I feel like my questions weren't answered.

    My question: 1)A toggle will make it non-optional in the view of many.  People will expect you to level an alt to gain perks on your main if the penalty is so minor.  Making some players feel like they are required to level an alt when they may not want to seems counter productive.  It could potentially turn people away who don't want to play an alt.  Having a harsh penalty makes the rest of the community understand why someone might not want to participate.

    1)  Leveling to max should take a lot of time and effort, potentially hundreds of hours.  Please keep in mind that I would be willing to sacrifice the parent character after the progeny hits max.  The idea of having to do it beforehand is cringeworthy.

    What does that have to do with the community considering participation in the  toggle based progeny system mandatory?

    When/if it is considered mandatory, what would happen to the people who don't want to lvl an alt?  They conform or quit?  Or something else?  Like I stated: " Having a harsh penalty makes the rest of the community understand why someone might not want to participate."

    Leveling a standard alt will take hundreds of hours.  Examples of how a toggle progeny character is not the same as a normal alt would be more relevant please.

    My Question: 2)If the penalty is so minor why would you even gain perks?  Just let people level an alt like normal.

    2)  See above.  I am fine with sacrificing a character when it makes sense to do so.  The sacrifice should not be a prerequisite.  I'll happily sacrifice items or currency just to create the progeny, but I don't like the idea of sacrificing the parent until the progeny can take their place as a max level adventurer.

    Part of the issue is you still have "end game" mentality.  We both know that Pantheon is trying to go away from that...I know it is easier said than done but, I have been trying to be open minded about that and trust VR in their vision of not having the "end game" be the end all ultimate goal.

    Not only is it not necessary for people to keep their character at max lvl until the progeny can take their place at max lvl...it is actually detrimental. 

    You aren't alleviating the end game bottleneck any more than just making a standard alt...but that wasn't even the question...but please do address how a toggle system alleviates the end game bottleneck more than a normal alt?

    The question was a hypothetical one about whether a player should earn perks for such a minimal sacrifice?  If you are waiting until you have another character that is equal or better...that you will want to play more anyway...before you decide to sacrifice the first character, that greatly diminishes the amount being sacrificed.  The perks from that sacrifice would have to be tiny or nonexistant.

    But in hindsight that ^ is very opinion based so lets leave that alone.   The above question about the difference of end game bottleneck compared to a normal alt seems more useful.

    My Question: 3)Why would anyone level an alt not using the progeny system if that is an option and it is a toggle and you get perks?  Doesn't this make normal alts obsolete?

    3)  We already know that we'll be limited to a single tradeskill per character.  This could extend to the progeny.  (If the parent is a blacksmith, the progeny is limited to the blacksmith profession.)  Rolling alts would allow you to level a second character on the same account that can be leveraged as a second tradeskiller.

    Why do you think that? 

    In a progeny type of system you are starting over...the only difference on creation is additional perks.

    If anything, I know we have discussed the possibility that the perk could be retention of a tradeskill allowing a character to have multiple...but ya, complete spit balling. The only difference is a small bonus compared to a standard alt.  Not extra negatives.

    It's also been stated that the game will use various forms of "lockouts" with certain content.  When you roll an alt, you can experience that content multiple times on the same account whereas parent/progeny would share lockouts. 

    Why do you think that?  Shared lockouts aren't how these type of systems work.  That would be counter productive.  Part of the reason for these systems is you want players to be able to replay through content, not lock them out of it. 

    Alts can also be used to obtain additional bank space,

    Like a lvl 1 mule.

    pursue different faction paths, or complete the same quests that the primary character did.

    Why do you think that?  Of course a progeny character will be able to re-run quests or work on factions. 

      The parent/progeny would share the same bank space, faction scores, and completed quests.

    No they wouldn't...that's not how it works.  Why do you think that?  Like mentioned, that would negate a lot of why these type of systems are created in the first place.

    Alts can be used for multi-boxing on a separate account. 

    Any character on another account can be multiboxed including progeny.  This is just getting silly now.

    You wouldn't be able to multi-box your parent/progeny together. 

    Because they are on the same account.  You couldn't multibox any 2 characters on the account regardless of progeny. Cmon man...

    Alts can be used to watch for important spawns or allow players to keep a tab on multiple regional auction houses or trade districts.  You can't do that with parent/progeny because they can never co-exist.

    A progeny character can do all of that...there is no reason they have to coexist in order to do any of that.

    Its your response to #3 that makes me think we are the most far apart.  After responding to that I feel like you are wasting my time.  It really sucks the wind out of my sails when I feel like there is such a misunderstanding.  Now I remember why I stopped responding months ago...I'll finish the response and let it go again after this.  All I can recommend is that you go play a game that uses a system similar to progeny.

    That was a long response to still not see a valid response to the question: Why would anyone level an alt not using the progeny system if that is an option and it is a toggle and you get perks?

    My Question: 4)How would you feel about multiple tiers of progeny?  toggle and full retirement with rewards based on the sacrifice.

    4)  I would be fine with multiple tiers of sacrifice if it's based on items or currency.  This is assuming that all players must sacrifice the parent character when the progeny achieves max level.  In a nutshell, the parent/progeny would be "merged" when the progeny hits max.  The toggle option would be removed until the player decides to start a new progeny and the old progeny becomes the new parent.

    That wasn't the question.  There is a toggle option like you want...with a later sacrifice... which rewards minor perks AND a standard restart type of sacrifice option like I'd prefer which rewards slightly greater perks.  The rewards are based on the sacrifice.

    We understand you don't want to sacrifice your character.  Luckily it is optional and this isn't the only system that will be in place to extend content and encourage replayability so all of our eggs aren't in the progeny basket. 

    It is not necessary for progeny to be the sole means of solving issues like populating all lvls of the game etc.  There are plenty of other options.

    Please take the next year or so that we have to wait for release and play a game that uses a progeny type of system before you spread more misinformation like in question #3.  A toggle is not the same thing.

    I'm going to go quiet on this one again for awhile.  This horse is beaten...especially when I'm unsure if I will even participate in the progeny system. 

     
     
     

    This post was edited by philo at March 7, 2018 10:25 AM PST
    • 3377 posts
    March 7, 2018 10:17 AM PST

    I think you were taking things too literally.  There were obviously some assumptions in there based on my experience with a similar feature in a different game.  You have done the exact same thing.  I'm not spreading misinformation but rather shining a light on how things could work.  I shared a link where Brad mentioned that retirement wasn't 100% set in stone and how he was willing to entertain the idea of alleviating that aspect of the penalty.  He specifically said "It's certainly a big negative to many people"  --  why the hell would they want a feature touted on their "Pantheon Difference Page" to be a big negative for a lot of people?  I want this feature to be a core aspect of gameplay (but still optional ... just like crafting, just like raiding, just like perception/questing which are all core aspects of gameplay) whereas you want it to be something that very few people ever partake in, and they only do it as a last resort.  I don't need to spend a year playing other games to know how permanently retiring a character (as a pre-requisite) would affect my decisions in a game like Pantheon.

    I saw how the toggle worked in FFXI and I saw how every benefit that has been associated with why they want to use progeny was realized on a monumental scale.  At the end of the day, that's what matters to me.  What is the purpose of progeny?  They want to use it to leverage those benefits that I listed.  Okay ... anything that detracts from that is automatically suspect, and that's exactly what a "retirement prerequisite" does.  You have a far greater chance of alleviating end-game bottlenecks (and contributing toward all of the other benefits that are linked with this feature) when you get more people to participate.  Any time spent on the progeny is a huge bonus to server health and is time not spent at the end-game bottleneck.  It will be ten times more effective if you allow people to do it at their pace instead of requiring them to retire their character beforehand.  If that doesn't make sense to you, I don't know what to tell you.  Either way it goes, the system is far from being set-in-stone so I don't think speculative analysis or theorycrafting is spreading misinformation.  I have seen first-hand how a /toggle would accomplish the goals that have been established for this feature.  I have played in a world where all of those wonderful benefits were leveraged and were some of the defining characteristics of that game.

    Finally, seeing that this game is built on community and lasting friendships, I think the retirement prerequisite would run counter to some of the core principles that this game is built around.  You know the video that had the phrase "Bring Friends!" at the end?  Well ... sorry, you know that friend you leveled up with for the past few months?  They can't help you anymore because they decided to participate in progeny.  There are features like the "caravan system" which are being designed with the sole purpose of keeping friends together.  P-Harmony (Pantheon Friend Finder)  --  let's say this thing takes off ... should people have an option to fill a bubble for "I plan to participate in Progeny" because it's a pretty major consideration.  It would allow players to know ahead of time that this person isn't going to be available for max-level content and that they should likely find someone that will be more reliable.  As a guild leader / raid leader, the retirement prerequisite is an absolute nightmare to plan for.  Things don't have to be that way.  This feature can be something that people are genuinely happy/excited about instead of something they dread trying to fit into their plan.  It should be used as a tool to expand the community, not fracture it.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 7, 2018 11:09 AM PST
    • 2575 posts
    March 7, 2018 11:43 AM PST

    FFXI to progeny is like apples to oranges. FFXI was designed entirely around the idea of leveling multiple classes on one character and everyone was forced to some degree to participate in it. Progeny is meant to be optional for those who are very into the game that want to maximize any potential character bonuses, it's a means to help prevent the game from becoming too top heavy and to help alleviate any high/max level content becoming too congested. 

     

    "Any time spent on the progeny is a huge bonus to server health and is time not spent at the end-game bottleneck."

    That's literally just an alt. Alts have never done much of anything to help ease up servers being top heavy/overly contested in the past when players can still log into their main (or toggle in your suggestion) to lock down raid targets or dungeons with their guild. 

     

    Kilsin said:

    Iksar said:

    I think it's important to consider progeny won't exist in a void and a very large number of players (I'd bet more than half) are likely to create at least 1 alt regardless of progeny. This is what leads me to believe progeny is more about relieving congestion/contesting of max level content by appealing more to the power gamers than it is about trying to get your average joe to make an alt and level up again, as if they get the power gamers/hardcore/dedicated to level again it gives more room for the average joe to try their hand at otherwise locked down content. 

    Correct, one of the main reasons for including a Progeny system is to keep low-mid tier content and levels populated, relieving max level/end game.

    My advice is to wait and see what we have in mind before suggestion alternatives or speculating over what will be best or what will break the game, we are aware of all the potential problems and what we want to achieve with this system for Pantheon, so I ask that you have a bit of faith in the Devs and wait to see what they do :)

     

    "Finally, seeing that this game is built on community and lasting friendships, I think the retirement prerequisite would run counter to some of the core principles that this game is built around.  "

    I'd say it fits in perfectly in a game built on community and lasting friendships. If you progeny and start anew and your friends don't then you engage with more of the community and meet/make new friends in addition to your old.

    • 3377 posts
    March 7, 2018 12:01 PM PST

    It's not apples to oranges.  The FFXI toggle delivered every benefit that has been associated with progeny ten times over.  You guys keep saying the same thing (it's meant to alleviate bottlenecks)  --  Okay, here is the actual list of benefits that have been shared:

    - It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
    - It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
    - It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
    - It helps us with balance
    - It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
    - It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
    - It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
    - Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.

    There is far more value to this feature than just alleviating bottlenecks.  You keep getting hung up on that like it's the sole purpose behind why the feature would exist.  The feature is designed to encompass all of bullets listed above.  There is a noticeable difference between being able to log into your main (from an alt) and a parent/progeny toggle.  When you play an alt, you can have your main parked right outside of a raid zone, or at a contested camp.  As soon as you are made aware that the contested boss spawned you can instantly log out and switch characters.  You can't do that with a parent/progeny toggle.  You would have to drop what you're doing (probably in a lower level area of the world, nowhere near an end-game contested boss) and head back to town.  You'll have to switch out your toggle, rearrange your bags/gear/consumables, hotbars, etc, and then make your way to whatever content is being contested.

    There are a lot of players who really don't care to roll alts.  I am one of them.  I choose to spend the majority of my time on my main character because I like to exhaust all possible progression paths including faction, quests, etc.  I could never dedicate that same amount of effort and commitment to an alternate character so I usually don't bother making alts unless they offer some sort of situational utility.  Progeny could end up being a feature that incentivizes players like me (there are a lot of people who prefer to focus on nothing but their main ... that's why it's a common question on the VoT player Q&A) to contribute toward all of those benefits that have been listed above.

    Players who would otherwise stick at the top in the bottleneck now have a reason to go back and re-level.  I understand that the FFXI toggle wasn't designed exclusively with the same idea in mind (Or was it?)but the fact of the matter is  --  their system delivered every benefit associated with progeny many times over.  We can argue semantics all day long but I have been playing MMO's for over 15 years and no game ever came close to leveraging the benefits that have been very specifically described in that above bullet list as FFXI did.  We need to agree on why the feature is important before we can have any meaningful dialogue on how it should be implemented.

    Another quote from Brad:  "I think the 'retirement' part is the hardest part of this system to wrap one’s head around and to accept.  In fact, having to permanently retire a high level character in order to create alts with progeny bonuses may be asking too much.  We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun.  It's about replayability.  It's also about pride -- you could adventure with your augmented alts and people would recognize that you were someone who has already achieved great things in Pantheon.  And I think these are great goals -- recognizing and rewarding long time players while also giving them reason to keep playing can't be a bad thing."

    All I'm saying is that it has been well established that the retirement aspect is a major painpoint.  Instead of possibly scrapping the feature, I think it makes sense to consider other games who offered a similar feature/experience that delivered the exact same benefits.  It doesn't have to be "retirement or the highway"  --  in fact, I would argue that it's been clearly demonstrated that the permanent retirement aspect of the feature is far from being set in stone.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 7, 2018 8:31 PM PST
    • 288 posts
    March 7, 2018 12:31 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    It's not apples to oranges.  The FFXI toggle delivered every benefit that has been associated with progeny ten times over.  You guys keep saying the same thing (it's meant to alleviate bottlenecks)  --  Okay, here is the actual list of benefits that have been shared:

    - It helps keep lower/mid level zones populated
    - It helps new players find their feet with level appropriate players
    - It helps us with horizontal progression instead of capping out and only having bottlenecked raiding/end game content (then leaking subscriptions -our main form of revenue- years down the track, while they wait for an expansion, which is a common trend in these types of games)
    - It helps us with balance
    - It plays into the fine tuning of dungeons, quaternity and group availability in a group based game
    - It helps stimulate the crafting and harvesting spheres by always having a supply/demand
    - It helps by keeping the economy continuously ticking over with player driven items through 1-50 level ranges
    - Plus many other reasons that we will go into later as we continue more work on this system.

    There is far more value to this feature than just alleviating bottlenecks.  You keep getting hung up on that like it's the sole purpose behind why the feature would exist.  The feature is designed to encompass all of bullets listed above.  There is a noticeable difference between being able to log into your main (from an alt) and a parent/progeny toggle.  When you play an alt, you can have your main parked right outside of a raid zone, or at a contested camp.  As soon as you are made aware that the contested boss spawned you can instantly log out and switch characters.  You can't do that with a parent/progeny toggle.  You would have to drop what you're doing (probably in a lower level area of the world, nowhere near an end-game contested boss) and head back to town.  You'll have to switch out your toggle, rearrange your bags/gear/consumables, hotbars, etc, and then make your way to whatever content is being contested.

    There are a lot of players who really don't care to roll alts.  I am one of them.  I choose to spend the majority of my time on my main character because I like to exhaust all possible progression paths including faction, quests, etc.  I could never dedicate that same amount of effort and commitment to an alternate character so I usually don't bother making alts unless they offer some sort of situational utility.  Progeny could end up being a feature that incentivizes players like me (there are a lot of people who prefer to focus on nothing but their main ... that's why it's a common question on the VoT player Q&A) to contribute toward all of those benefits that have been listed above.

    Players who would otherwise stick at the top in the bottlecap now have a reason to go back and re-level.  I understand that the FFXI toggle wasn't "designed" with the same idea in mind but the fact of the matter is  --  their system delivered every benefit associated with progeny.  We can argue semantics all day long but I have been playing MMO's for over 15 years and no game ever came close to leveraging the benefits that have been very specifically described in that above bullet list as FFXI did.  We need to agree on why the feature is important before we can have any meaningful dialogue on how it should be implemented.

    Another quote from Brad:  "I think the 'retirement' part is the hardest part of this system to wrap one’s head around and to accept.  In fact, having to permanently retire a high level character in order to create alts with progeny bonuses may be asking too much.  We have to first go back to the purpose for such a system -- one of its primary goals is to reward a player who has leveled up a character to max level by encouraging him to create alts and experience the game again, albeit from a different perspective, and ideally in such a way that feels different and new enough that it’s a lot of fun.  It's about replayability.  It's also about pride -- you could adventure with your augmented alts and people would recognize that you were someone who has already achieved great things in Pantheon.  And I think these are great goals -- recognizing and rewarding long time players while also giving them reason to keep playing can't be a bad thing."

    All I'm saying is that it has been well established that the retirement aspect is a major painpoint.  Instead of possibly scrapping the feature, I think it makes sense to consider other games who offered a similar feature/experience that delivered the exact same benefits.  It doesn't have to be "retirement or the highway"  --  in fact, I would argue that it's been clearly demonstrated that the permanent retirement aspect of the feature is far from being set in stone.



    I love the driving principles behind the Progeny system. As long as those remain the key focus, I think it would be pretty difficult to go wrong.

    That being said, I think having any sort of penalty--especially a significant one--would deter people from using this system. So, IMO the system should focus only on rewarding those who choose to participate. As far as character retirement, there are ways it could be made feasible... but I'd prefer that that entire aspect of the progeny system just be scrapped.

    I'm good with the idea laid out by 1AD7 as far as a toggle for one character as long as it's only available in town. However, the part I highlighted sounds awful to me. Why shouldn't Progeny just function like its own character? I feel like I'm misunderstanding / misinterpreting something here. Rearanging gear, hotbars, etc... every time you want to switch from main to progeny? I wouldn't want a shared bank, or to use the same bags, or to have to rearrange hotbars / re-mem spells, etc...

    I think my personal preference would just be to have the progeny be a completely separate character. But I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of toggle, except in the case that you have to share inventory/bank/etc... with the main.

    • 3377 posts
    March 7, 2018 2:03 PM PST

    Kaen  --  I appreciate you sharing your observation as it clearly demonstrates the difference between a traditional alt and a progeny character in this theoretical version of the concept.  To be honest, the rearranging process isn't that big of a deal.  It's possible that when you /toggle back and forth, each character has their own hotbars memorized.  As far as having to rearrange your bags and whatnot ... that's just a part of the process.  It's not that bad once you get used to it.  Based on some of the information we have learned so far, it's possible that we'll be able to save loadouts.  Players might reserve a section of their bank specifically for their progeny character to ease the process of switching.  It could be as simple as switching out a couple bags and then applying the loadout.  It's a little tedious but at the end of the day, it should be.  This reinforces the point I made where players can't simply log off of one character and then instantly be ready to go.  It takes a bit of time and effort to transition between the parent/progeny.  Sharing bank space, bags, faction, completed quests is what ties everything together.  Instead of playing a "new character" you're playing a second generation of the primary character.  These two characters would eventually be merged at max level so you don't have to worry about trying to balance two "complete" characters at the same time.

    If someone wants to focus on leveling, they are incentivized to branch out.  If you completed all of the quests in Thronefast on your main, you'll probably want to explore another area that you didn't adventure through on your first run.  This is how you capture that advanced horizontal progression that was alluded to by both Kilsin and Aradune.  It isn't a matter of following some cookie cutter leveling guide to get to max level as fast as possible.  You want to try and experience anything you may have missed out on.  For completionists, this is a great way to experience all that the game has to offer while it's level appropriate.  You don't have to go back to Syronai's Rest and beat all of the quests on a high level character where all of the content is trivialized.  You can keep replaying through the game on future generations, expanding your faction and completed quests.  Again, there are very tangible differences between an alt and a progeny character if this model is used.  I'm not saying this is how things are going to work.  I just wanted to share some insight on how things could work and I'm basing these examples off of my experience with FFXI where all of the benefits that have been associated with progeny were core principles that helped define the greatness of that game.  There are several other ideas that have been shared by other folks in the community that I could also get behind.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at March 7, 2018 2:08 PM PST