Razafrak75 said:The combat in Wild Star was the one thing that put me off the game, all that jumping and dodging got pretty tiresome. I much prefer slower paced combat, it allows much more time to explore, take in the environment and socialise. One of the best things in EQ was the downtime; mana regen, it allowed players to actually talk to each other instead of just spamming buttons constantly.
Amen. This isn't an arcade game.
Again to the OP, I'm sure the combat is placeholder. And to where this topic has gone about the twitch style combat, I mostly agree.
With that said I would like to see the Devs explore a cross between the two when they begin narrowing in on the final product. It wouldn't need to be with all spells or abilities but what if a few for each class had some.
I recall first logging into EQ IN 1999 and thinking "really?! you don't even have to aim?!" It was a bit of a let down. And then as an EQ Next supporter and playing Landmark where you actually aimed your bow or wand, this felt like what was missing and what I felt it should have been.
No way am I speaking of that full on parcour type combat, but what if, for a Ranger "Aimed Shot" really was aimed.
A Wizard had a Focused Fireball that he needed to aim
A Druid had a focused Lighting Bolt.
Where the player would need to aim a cross hair at the Mob, if his aim was bad or he didn't lead a moving mob then it could miss.
THIS I would like to see.... yeah yeah Internet lag time. Maybe back in the 9600 baud days.... I have DSL with 3mbps and did fine with 2 computers playing Landmark. At times it was a bit noticeable but I belive my situation an extreme case in this gaming world/community. I live on a mountain and 3mbps is all that was available at the time... I have 6 now
I'm all for non-twitch combat that's more tactical, but they really need to do away with the auto attack.
Just standing there while your character swings his sword every 3 seconds is not gameplay.
If the skills are set up such that the player has to trigger a spam skill every 2-3 seconds, then auto attack is pointless and the damage should just be rolled into the spam attack.
VG had auto attack, and it made zero sense. I hope they do away with it in Pantheon.
Wildstar was action based combat. Which btw, still wasn't very good combat. This game will be nothing similar in terms of combat. If you've played EQ, which you said you did, then that's the type of combat you will pretty much be seeing. Much slower paced than most things on the market right now. I am hoping they make some changes to bring some skill based combat into things but even if they do it won't be much. The game is more about being social than it is about being top notch at keeping a solid rotation. Skilled players will be the ones capable of adapting quickly to various situations and maximizing their dmg to threat ratios so that they put out the most dmg possible without ripping threat from tanks and wiping raids
Enitzu said:Zorkon said:3mbps is all that was available at the time... I have 6 now
I would die with 6mbps lmao.
Lol, tell me about it.... might I suggest if you ever decide to purchase some Land and build a house on it you add "Check Available Internet Speeds" to the list right under.
1) Septic Perc Test
2) Power Availability
The thought never occurred to me.
nscheffel said:I'm all for non-twitch combat that's more tactical, but they really need to do away with the auto attack.
Just standing there while your character swings his sword every 3 seconds is not gameplay.
If the skills are set up such that the player has to trigger a spam skill every 2-3 seconds, then auto attack is pointless and the damage should just be rolled into the spam attack.
VG had auto attack, and it made zero sense. I hope they do away with it in Pantheon.
/shrug
I'd take auto attack over an ability I have to spam endlessly and slot on my bars. Next thing you know people will want players to play QWOP just to move their characters.
Fast combat where player skill comes in the form of quick decisionmaking that test reflexes and keep you on the edge of your seat has some appeal. Some games (even MMOs) require that you make hundreds of actions per second to maximize your efficiency and that in itself becomes a great game. However, the brain can only do so much and in order to add variety to combat you need to ask players to pay attention to more than just their character. If that means asking players to play an extremely twitchy and complex class while still managing encounter specific mechanics, it can be too much.
Wildstar was pretty innovative in the class complexity and mob complexity tradespace. They had quite complex classes and introduced very clear encounter specific mechanics through heavy use of telegraphing. If you took the telegraphing out of wildstar and asked players to perform the same tasks, it would be practically impossible. Players just can't handle doing too much at once, so having relatively complex attacks clearly indicated to the player allowed them to perform seemingly difficult dance routines despite all that was going on at once. If you want to get rid of the flashy telegraph system, then something has to give.
A developer needs to ask what they want a player to be paying attention to and take into consideration that we can only focus on so many things at once. If just playing your class at the training dummies requires 80% of your focus and attention, not much brainpower is left for encounter-specific group tactics when you have an opponent fighting back. It is certainly different to play games with slower paced combat, but it isn't necessarily better/worse, exciting/boring, or difficult/easy just based on the speed of it.
Just as a refresher, here is VR's stance on combat:
There will be both offensive and defensive targets. Beneficial spells and abilities will be directed toward your defensive target, while harmful spells and abilities will be directed at your offensive target. Some spells and abilities, primarily area-of-effect spells, will involve targeting the ground or area around your foes.
13.1 Is there an auto-attack and if so, how will it work?
There will be a traditional auto-attack system. Passive abilities will trigger automatically during combat (dodge, parry, etc.). This gives the player the time to focus on selecting abilities and spells (magic missile, fireball, counterspells, deflections, etc.) based on what’s going on tactically in combat.
13.1.1 Does Pantheon use tab-targeting and auto-attack or a more ‘action’ focused combat system?
We realize that some MMOs have used a more ‘action’ oriented combat system, where you click on different buttons to attack, swing your sword, dodge, etc. With Pantheon, combat will still be action-packed and require close attention, using tactics, as well as reacting to what mobs and other players may be doing. In fact, so much will be going on that you will not want to have to worry about whether you are swinging your sword or not -- you will be casting spells, assuming stances, countering or deflecting your opponent’s moves and spells, and more. Additionally, while you can either click directly on a mob or simply use the tab key to change targets, there will also be a subset of spells where you can target the ground (for example, some area-of-effect spells).
13.1.2 Can you go into more detail regarding the action aspect of combat?
The player will have enough time to react to what the NPC is doing (counterspell, deflect, move out of the way, etc.). Combat is more involved and the player will need to pay attention, but it is not ‘twitch’ in the way a first-person shooter is.
13.2 Will there be ability chaining?
We’re considering it. We don’t want to create a detailed combo system but we like the idea of synergetic abilities and the opportunity for players abilities to open up possible actions for others. We will reveal more in the future.
13.3 Is the combat system set in stone?
Combat statistics, formulas, weapon damage, weapon delay, resource pools, regeneration, etc. are all things we are constantly tweaking and monitoring. While we are at the point we need to be right now, we don’t consider anything final. Tweaking and balancing an MMO is an ongoing process.
Interesting topic.
From a realistic perspective, Auto-Attack just makes sense. As our character should have done drill after drill to become proficient in their chosen weapon, it stands to reason that they wouldn't just stop attacking. They would, when stamina runs out, continue performing the most routine of attacks as opposed to standing there like an idiot and waiting to use "Spinning Flying Sword of Heaven". Much like the jab in boxing - they would have "go-to" attack routines just to keep an opponent on their toes. To NOT include an auto-attack just seems silly, no matter how useless it might be.
There are definitely ways of making combat challenging without making it twitchy. LOTRO (something I talk about often) and the Warden was a great example of this. Their attacks were done via "gambits".
1. spear strike
2. shield bash
3. small taunt/battle cry
by performing different combinations of attacks, you could end with a finishing attack. For example, by doing Spear strike, shield bash, spear strike, and then shield bash, you would then be able to perform a more powerful spear based attack that also increased your attack damage for the next 30 seconds. There were many, many, many different variations and combinations. This forced you to plan your attacks, and your routine, for every battle - to do otherwise would usually result in wasted gambits and time. These kinds of combat ideas are great. They force you think plan your next move, to take into consideration both your needs, and your group's needs, without having to run and jump all over the place.
That's the kind of challenging combat I want to see, and it's the kind of challenge that I think Pantheon is going for. I'm happy with that.
While I really enjoyed Wildstar and it's combat, for a fantasy MMO I'd rather play something along the lines of Vanguard's system. It had just enough combo/reactive mechanics to make it interesting without being a total twitch fest. I'd prefer to have active dodging in a more arcady, single-player game, and slower combat leaving room to type in an mmo.
Iksar said:nscheffel said:I'm all for non-twitch combat that's more tactical, but they really need to do away with the auto attack.
Just standing there while your character swings his sword every 3 seconds is not gameplay.
If the skills are set up such that the player has to trigger a spam skill every 2-3 seconds, then auto attack is pointless and the damage should just be rolled into the spam attack.
VG had auto attack, and it made zero sense. I hope they do away with it in Pantheon.
/shrug
I'd take auto attack over an ability I have to spam endlessly and slot on my bars. Next thing you know people will want players to play QWOP just to move their characters.
It always boggles my mind when folks respond like this, as if they have no understanding that an MMO needs subs to remain functioning.
In the year 2018, very few people are going to pay to play a game where they turn on auto attacks, and sit there watching their toon swing at a mob for 2 minutes until it dies. While mindlessly spamming your 1 key is barely more engaging than that, it IS more engaging than that.
Ideally, they come up with combat that makes the player constantly decide which key to press every 2-3 seconds, with that decision being influenced by several considerations like mob abilities, group makeup and actions performed by the group.
The decision between "twitch" and "strategic" combat is not binary. There can be engaging combat without having to actively dodge attacks and be a quick draw aimer with your mouse. Overly slow combat will kill this game just as easily as overly twitchy combat.
nscheffel said:It always boggles my mind when folks respond like this, as if they have no understanding that an MMO needs subs to remain functioning.
In the year 2018, very few people are going to pay to play a game where they turn on auto attacks, and sit there watching their toon swing at a mob for 2 minutes until it dies. While mindlessly spamming your 1 key is barely more engaging than that, it IS more engaging than that.
Ideally, they come up with combat that makes the player constantly decide which key to press every 2-3 seconds, with that decision being influenced by several considerations like mob abilities, group makeup and actions performed by the group.
The decision between "twitch" and "strategic" combat is not binary. There can be engaging combat without having to actively dodge attacks and be a quick draw aimer with your mouse. Overly slow combat will kill this game just as easily as overly twitchy combat.
We all want combat to be engaging. There are different levels and different types of engagement. Bazgrim copied the FAQ as described from VR showing that auto attack will in fact be a thing.
My experience in early EQ was that tanks and clerics would start the fight blowing mitigation abilities and throwing big heals until the NPC was slowed and debuffed. At this point the cleric/healer would generally start meditating for another big heal at the end of the fight and prepare their mana for the next pull. With the NPC slowed and debuffed the DPS can go hard because now the odds of them dying to the NPC if/when they pull agro are significantly reduced. Generally no one is going "all out" though because they may need cooldowns or extra mana to deal with unexpected adds.
This is where EQ was challenging and stratetic and fun for me. This is what I want in Pantheon. This does not exist in games today. You usually knew several minutes before you died that the group was in trouble and the odds of survival were quite low. Pulling off a miracle and surviving felt amazing. Its nothing like that in modern games. If you accidentally pull an extra NPC in most modern MMOs your group gets mad at you for only pulling two NPCs. In EQ, especially at lower levels, or when lacking crowd control, an add could result in a total party wipe. This made it exciting. The combat itself may not be as fast paced but everything becomes more important. When are respawns? Was there a patrol that came by here? Do I have enough mana to throw another nuke? Is my next backstab going to pull agro and get me killed?
Twitchy combat can be had in 99% of games out there. Why does it have to be a part of this game too? I want the slower more strategic combat where my group has to think about the consequences of their actions.
I use EQ as an example but FFXI, EQ, Vanguard and a few other games all share these traits.
grux said:nscheffel said:It always boggles my mind when folks respond like this, as if they have no understanding that an MMO needs subs to remain functioning.
In the year 2018, very few people are going to pay to play a game where they turn on auto attacks, and sit there watching their toon swing at a mob for 2 minutes until it dies. While mindlessly spamming your 1 key is barely more engaging than that, it IS more engaging than that.
Ideally, they come up with combat that makes the player constantly decide which key to press every 2-3 seconds, with that decision being influenced by several considerations like mob abilities, group makeup and actions performed by the group.
The decision between "twitch" and "strategic" combat is not binary. There can be engaging combat without having to actively dodge attacks and be a quick draw aimer with your mouse. Overly slow combat will kill this game just as easily as overly twitchy combat.
We all want combat to be engaging. There are different levels and different types of engagement. Bazgrim copied the FAQ as described from VR showing that auto attack will in fact be a thing.
My experience in early EQ was that tanks and clerics would start the fight blowing mitigation abilities and throwing big heals until the NPC was slowed and debuffed. At this point the cleric/healer would generally start meditating for another big heal at the end of the fight and prepare their mana for the next pull. With the NPC slowed and debuffed the DPS can go hard because now the odds of them dying to the NPC if/when they pull agro are significantly reduced. Generally no one is going "all out" though because they may need cooldowns or extra mana to deal with unexpected adds.
This is where EQ was challenging and stratetic and fun for me. This is what I want in Pantheon. This does not exist in games today. You usually knew several minutes before you died that the group was in trouble and the odds of survival were quite low. Pulling off a miracle and surviving felt amazing. Its nothing like that in modern games. If you accidentally pull an extra NPC in most modern MMOs your group gets mad at you for only pulling two NPCs. In EQ, especially at lower levels, or when lacking crowd control, an add could result in a total party wipe. This made it exciting. The combat itself may not be as fast paced but everything becomes more important. When are respawns? Was there a patrol that came by here? Do I have enough mana to throw another nuke? Is my next backstab going to pull agro and get me killed?
Twitchy combat can be had in 99% of games out there. Why does it have to be a part of this game too? I want the slower more strategic combat where my group has to think about the consequences of their actions.
I use EQ as an example but FFXI, EQ, Vanguard and a few other games all share these traits.
And you think a combat system where the healer cast 1-2 spells per mob and then sits there regaining mana for the rest of the fight is going to sustain subscriptions in 2018?
There's a reason the healer classes in VG all relied on doing things other than healing to be effective, and it wasn't because a game could succeed with dated combat like that.
Again, strategic vs twitch is not a binary decision. Engaging combat does not have to involve a lot of twitch skill, but it must require a player actually do something. Sitting there staring at a toon with auto attack is not going to cut it. If auto attack is just something that happens between the use of skills, then why include it at all? Just make it be a 0 cost skill that requires the player to activate.
nscheffel said:I'm all for non-twitch combat that's more tactical, but they really need to do away with the auto attack.
Just standing there while your character swings his sword every 3 seconds is not gameplay.
If the skills are set up such that the player has to trigger a spam skill every 2-3 seconds, then auto attack is pointless and the damage should just be rolled into the spam attack.
VG had auto attack, and it made zero sense. I hope they do away with it in Pantheon.
I don't think they will get rid of auto attack. I don't see how getting rid of AA would improve game play if the point is to avoid button-mashing, face-rolling dps ability spam. What I would like to see rather than mash-on-cooldown abilities is abilities you have to use reactively or in conjunction with other abilities or other players abilities in order to get full effect out of them. I hope they make us think about when and how to use abilities instead of there being a given, standard rotation used in every fight. Boooriiing.
Xbachs said:nscheffel said:I'm all for non-twitch combat that's more tactical, but they really need to do away with the auto attack.
Just standing there while your character swings his sword every 3 seconds is not gameplay.
If the skills are set up such that the player has to trigger a spam skill every 2-3 seconds, then auto attack is pointless and the damage should just be rolled into the spam attack.
VG had auto attack, and it made zero sense. I hope they do away with it in Pantheon.
I don't think they will get rid of auto attack. I don't see how getting rid of AA would improve game play if the point is to avoid button-mashing, face-rolling dps ability spam. What I would like to see rather than mash-on-cooldown abilities is abilities you have to use reactively or in conjunction with other abilities or other players abilities in order to get full effect out of them. I hope they make us think about when and how to use abilities instead of there being a given, standard rotation used in every fight. Boooriiing.
Then why have auto attack? Just so we can see a number pop up between activated abilities? How could anyone logically be for auto attack, but against spamming the same abilities over and over? There is going to be some sort of basic attack sequence, whether it's auto attack or pressing the 1 key over and over...and I see no need for both.
I do agree that combat needs to be engaging, but the actual mechanics of how your toon physically hits the mob is not the place to implement it in an MMO.
You're on the right track with what needs to be present for engaging non-twitch combat: healing vs attacking, combos with other classes, player positioning, mob positioning, countering mob skills, target selection order, not standing in the fire, not getting knocked off the bridge, etc, etc.
Just give me EQ1 mixed with a version of Mario World and...wait, nah, can't do it. No double tapping-3 key combo- hold your tongue just right-for me.
nscheffel said:Then why have auto attack? Just so we can see a number pop up between activated abilities? How could anyone logically be for auto attack, but against spamming the same abilities over and over? There is going to be some sort of basic attack sequence, whether it's auto attack or pressing the 1 key over and over...and I see no need for both.
I'd rather have auto attack and be left to make more important decisions with button presses during combat. Pressing the 1 key over and over for basic DPS adds nothing but tedium.
Autoattack sets the pace of engagement. When HP = 0 the engagement is over. If an NPC has 3000 HP and a default engagement setting of a rate of one swing every 3 seconds and one would hit with 100 each swing then the engamanet in simple terms will be 90 seconds. Modifiers that determine if the engagement lasts longer or shorter include such things as more damage (even burst damage) or less damage (miss), slower or faster swings (rate or haste modifier). More people in a group the faster an NPC (or group o NPCs) will have HP = 0. Having too many NPCs increases the change of a player (or a group) having their HP=0 (TRAIN TO ZONE anyone?).
I am perfectly fine with a mechanism in a MMO which has as an encounter mechanism a "pace of engamanet" that can be modified in many ways during engamanet (modified both positive and negative). It allows for a strategy for playing and playstyles to emerge and not a one size fits all.
I can read and understand where others do not see a use for such a mechanism. But for me, I am attracted to games which employ those kinds of mechanisms. And for that, I am still eagerly waiting to be able to be part of Pantheon.
I hope the fighting animations are fun... not just chop, chop, chop with no reaction to being smashed in the face with an axe
Agreed that the super flashy asian action combat fighting moves with lazers and fireworks are generally over the top, but I'd still like to see some engaging animations at play with some variation, even while auto-attacking
Attacking and defending from different angles, high and low... Hits that look like they have an effect
Using magic should look magical, and powerful attacks should inspire awe... When my friends come over and ask why I spend so much time in the game, I'd love to be able to show them an awesome fight that looks amazing, dangerous and fun
Still unsure about sitting down to take a break in the middle of a fight, but I'll see how it feels when I can play it
Tell you what though, if I see an enemy mob popping a squat I'd surely take a moment to plant a hammer on his noggin
I suppose that's a player only mechanic though? Can't imagine we'd be facing bosses and dragons that run out of steam and need to rest up to continue fighting for their lives
nscheffel said:How could anyone logically be for auto attack, but against spamming the same abilities over and over?
I guess I really don't see much of a difference between auto-attacking and hitting "1" over and over to be honest. Except maybe that my ring finger will be less fatigued after long raids. Thank you VR for sparing my poor hand from inevitable, Pantheon-related carpel tunnel of the ring finger.
Xbachs said:nscheffel said:How could anyone logically be for auto attack, but against spamming the same abilities over and over?
I guess I really don't see much of a difference between auto-attacking and hitting "1" over and over to be honest. Except maybe that my ring finger will be less fatigued after long raids. Thank you VR for sparing my poor hand from inevitable, Pantheon-related carpel tunnel of the ring finger.
Auto-attack is just that, a basic simple swinging set to auto, it does the base damage on a timer.
Then you add in special ability attacks that one must choose either related to ability pools (Stamina, mana, power, whatever) or as a reaction to the mob. Say you see the mob rear back for a full hard attack, you can use a reactive block attack to mitigate the hit you take, or maybe you make a lower damage but faster swift hit that damages the mob and possibly stops their attack, or possibly a finishing attack with crit damage if the mob is below a certain % health at the time. And of course failure to make the hit in such case could mean the player takes a more damaging blow since a miss on their part would leave them more vulnerable.
This does not mean auto-attack is pointless. It's no different than a caster not having to continually press their spell button during casting.
If they add in some sort or stamina or energy pool to melee classes, then there would be times where turning off the auto-attack may be necessary to maintain your stamina/energy.
Xbachs said:nscheffel said:How could anyone logically be for auto attack, but against spamming the same abilities over and over?
I guess I really don't see much of a difference between auto-attacking and hitting "1" over and over to be honest. Except maybe that my ring finger will be less fatigued after long raids. Thank you VR for sparing my poor hand from inevitable, Pantheon-related carpel tunnel of the ring finger.
LOL except that auto attack will be firing constantly and you will ALSO be hitting some attack key over and over.
In EQ1 you were hitting the Slam/Bash/Kick/Backstab key every few seconds. In VG you were hitting whatever your basic attack key was every global cool down.
Aaaand auto attack was still firing. Nobody ever, not once, stood there letting auto attack kill a mob of any significance in either game.
So again, what's the point of auto attack? Why not just make whatever skill you will undoubtedly be spamming anyways do more damage?