Recently back to forums and haven't read much since 2014. Some great discussions! In my opinion modern MMO's are so easy that they are just a stupid joke. I think it will be great if Pantheon does the opposite: a very challenging, hard game. Hell levels, risk vs rewards, intense group play, and huge world etc. A world where cities and 'old content' will always remain an important part of the game years from now. That any expansion may never, ever make the gameplay less challenging. Yes -- I realize this has already been addressed & PRotF will be great. My question is will there be something akin to hell levels? I'm traveling now and only have this small phone to use. I'd appreciate just a simple answer. Thanks
Syrif said:Recently back to forums and haven't read much since 2014. Some great discussions! In my opinion modern MMO's are so easy that they are just a stupid joke. I think it will be great if Pantheon does the opposite: a very challenging, hard game. Hell levels, risk vs rewards, intense group play, and huge world etc. A world where cities and 'old content' will always remain an important part of the game years from now. That any expansion may never, ever make the gameplay less challenging. Yes -- I realize this has already been addressed & PRotF will be great. My question is will there be something akin to hell levels? I'm traveling now and only have this small phone to use. I'd appreciate just a simple answer. Thanks
I think you'll find almost everyone here will be on the same page with those sentiments. Personally, I adored hell levels. They added meaning to the game and were almost a kind of status symbol. They were absolutely part of the shared experience. Every level 36 player knew what every other level 36 player had just gone through and it engendered a since of connection to people.
As far as hell levels, here are some threads on leveling and difficulty:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2950/the-value-of-hell-levels
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2037/how-long-should-level-1-take In this thread a bunch of people, including myself, misread the title.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3863/my-list-of-things-i-would-like-to-see
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7862/how-long-will-it-take-to-be-max-level
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6183/death-penalty-level-loss
Syrif said: Thank you.
Honestly, that wasn't a simple answer. I don't remember their stance on hell levels, if they even have one. I'd guess they won't exist as the EQ ones were supposedly some kind of algorithmic error that had to be accounted for(not sure I believe that). /shrug
Good info though. Even if there aren't hell levels, I think PRotF focusing on being a difficult game will resonate well with the people who want this game. Hopefully we will have a similar progression style akin to hell levels regardless if hell levels were intentional or not.
Syrif said:Good info though. Even if there aren't hell levels, I think PRotF focusing on being a difficult game will resonate well with the people who want this game. Hopefully we will have a similar progression style akin to hell levels regardless if hell levels were intentional or not.
Agreed on all counts.
Personally I think they should make it as hard as they can until people start to groan, then just a *little* bit harder ;)
I really hope Pants isn't a game that can be maxed in a few months or even a year... or two...
I played Everquest for years and only stopped that to play EQ2. Longevity has to have effort at it's core and effort is best as a combo of difficulty and endurance, and if that strays occasionally into torturous and grindingly painful, better that than straying into easy and worthless.
GRAAAGH! HURT ME, PANTHEON! HURT ME!
Welcome to the forum. As others have pointed out, difficulty and challenge have been discussed ad nauseam. A challenging game has been promised as is noted in the game tenants. The tenants would be a good place to start to familiarize yourself with the game and some of the goals.
A couple of the tenants:
disposalist said:Personally I think they should make it as hard as they can until people start to groan, then just a *little* bit harder ;)
I really hope Pants isn't a game that can be maxed in a few months or even a year... or two...
I played Everquest for years and only stopped that to play EQ2. Longevity has to have effort at it's core and effort is best as a combo of difficulty and endurance, and if that strays occasionally into torturous and grindingly painful, better that than straying into easy and worthless.
GRAAAGH! HURT ME, PANTHEON! HURT ME!
Yes exactly :)
philo said:Welcome to the forum. As others have pointed out, difficulty and challenge have been discussed ad nauseam. A challenging game has been promised as is noted in the game tenants. The tenants would be a good place to start to familiarize yourself with the game and some the the goals.
A couple of the tenants:
- An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
- An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
Right on. Thanks
I'm all for challenge, but if I've learned anything since leaving EQ, it's that challenge comes in different forms.
There's challenge in terms of risk in individual combat, and making each fight feel like a life or death struggle (which EQ did very well).
There's challenge in terms of complexity and being forced to build strategies well and coordinate with others to use abilities to their fullest for the toughest encounters (which EQ2 did well).
There's challenge in terms of active gameplay, literally, having to control your character, to position, dodge, interrupt, and so on (which Wildstar did very well).
There's challenge in terms of solving puzzles and riddles (which TSW did very well, and in a unique way)
There's challenge in terms of horizontal progression - gearing, skilling, etc - which several games have done pretty well.
There's challenge in terms of requiring players to work together to achieve goals - which many games also do well, to differing extents.
... and so on.
For me, I want Pantheon to be a game where I am challenged in multiple ways. I want to be compelled to actively work to master the art of playing my chosen class and using their abilities to the fullest, as an example. I also want to be compelled to engage in horizontal progression in order for my character to reach its full potential. I want risk in combat, such that I never feel like I don't have to try to win a fight. I want to need other players, and to be challenged in those same ways I already mentioned when grouped as well. I want depth and complexity to the point where there is never only a single best path to victory, but instead options that are equally viable in general and stronger or weaker in specific situations. I want puzzles and riddles and mysteries to solve, so that it's not just all about getting better at hacking and slashing all the time. And obviously along with that I want bigger and tougher encounters to overcome as I grow more skilled (both as a player, and as a character). To me, when we talk about challenge, that's what I think of.
It's only part of the equation though. I also need the game world to be vast and untamed, and full of interesting and unique places, people, and things to go see. I need my choices of where to go and what to do to be meaningful, just as my choices in how to develop my character should be. I need a slow pace of progression so that I have time to explore both the world and my own character without feeling like I'm falling behind or that I'm being rushed into things before I finish the stuff that comes before. I need the game to support and embrace the idea that our shared fantasy world is not just about fighting monsters all the time, but that players can and should gather socially too, and give us the tools to really enable that. I need a strong crafting and gathering system and a well-designed economy as well, and eventually I will need a way to make my mark on the world for myself and for my guild, via some kind of housing or guild halls or something.
I think we talk about challenge a lot because it's something we don't feel so keenly in many other games, but we often equate it with these other things when we shouldn't be so quick to do so. A game can be challenging and still be too small. A game can have great pacing and still have boring fights. A game can have great combat systems and mechanics and still leave people with little reason to keep going out and fighting once the novelty wears off. We shouldn't get so fixated on just one aspect of what we want the game to be that we lose sight of the others. Nor should we expect the inspiration for those things to come from only one game of the past. As much as 1999 EQ did right, there were plenty of places where it did poorly. We just didn't really realize it at the time, because there weren't really very many other games to compare it to.
My opinion.
When I think of challenge I think combat. So in terms of combat especially I want Pantheon to be very challenging, much more so than EQ was. I want group fights to keep me alert, on edge, and require everyone to be on top of their game. Single pulls should be dangerous enough on their own that making mistakes is punishing and the threat of a patrol/add/runner gives anxiety.
disposalist said:Personally I think they should make it as hard as they can until people start to groan, then just a *little* bit harder ;)
I really hope Pants isn't a game that can be maxed in a few months or even a year... or two...
I played Everquest for years and only stopped that to play EQ2. Longevity has to have effort at it's core and effort is best as a combo of difficulty and endurance, and if that strays occasionally into torturous and grindingly painful, better that than straying into easy and worthless.
GRAAAGH! HURT ME, PANTHEON! HURT ME!
That sounds rather masochistic LOL
The rumor that hell levels were a bug always seemed fishy to me, too. Seemed like a way for Sony to backpedal after all the complaints, instead of admitting that it worked as intended. Maybe if they happened on more arbitrary levels (32, 47, 51) as opposed to 35, 45, etc, I'd have a easier time believing it was an accident. Either way, like most here, I enjoyed it.
As far as difficulty goes, most MMO's these days seem to focus their difficulty on the end-game. EQ raids weren't really hard. They were hard to organize, hard to compete for, but the encounters themselves weren't necessarily difficult, especially once the mechanics were nailed down. The challenge in EQ came from punishment, more so than content. Take away the hell levels and the XP penalties on death, and EQ would've been laughably easy, I think (even with the difficulty in getting from place to place).
Whereas, in many newer MMO's, the challenge doesn't come into play until raids. Some of the best fun I had raiding was during the Isengard xpac in LOTRO. Saruman, the Dracolich (sp?), and that stupid acid lake raid, were challenging and fun. Some of the mechanics were monotonous and dumb, but they still created a fun experience and a feeling of completion. Whereas, the journey to end game was a soloable, instanced, joke.
If Pantheon can take these parts from each iteration of MMOs and uses them to create an even level of challenge throughout both the journey to raiding, and the actual raids, I'll be very pleased. That, I believe, is their goal.