Our friends over at MMORPG.com caught up with Brad and Corey at TwitchCon2017, check out what they had to say here: https://www.mmorpg.com/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen/interviews/our-twitchcon-2017-chat-with-brad-mcquaid-and-corey-lefever-1000012318
#PRF #communitymatters
This is the most concerning interview I've read about Pantheon.
Two huge red flags to me:
#1 "We know even our most hardcore players they have responsibilities now. We can't expect them to put in eight-hour sessions."
I thought this game was being designed for hardcore play? 8 hour sessions are nothing. If, like you said, you are designing this game for a guy to play 2 hours every few days... that leaves me wondering, who is the target audience really for this game?
#2 "Will this game have PvP?" -> VR response: "Eventually... but not as part of the core game."
Ouch. A dagger in my back. Does eventually mean you are even considering the idea of not launching Pantheon with a PvP realm?
Firstly, well said by Brad and Corey. I'm pretty sure I witnessed this interview take place. Brad and Corey were very busy at TwitchCon :P It was good to see the game get so much attention.
But I have to say, the huge amount of typos and bad punctuation in this article support my theory that the quality of journalism at MMORPG.com has been diminishing unfortunately. But again, more Pantheon is coverage always ultimately a good thing. And that's what's important!
Dulu said:This is the most concerning interview I've read about Pantheon.
Two huge red flags to me:
#1 "We know even our most hardcore players they have responsibilities now. We can't expect them to put in eight-hour sessions."
I thought this game was being designed for hardcore play? 8 hour sessions are nothing. If, like you said, you are designing this game for a guy to play 2 hours every few days... that leaves me wondering, who is the target audience really for this game?
#2 "Will this game have PvP?" -> VR response: "Eventually... but not as part of the core game."
Ouch. A dagger in my back. Does eventually mean you are even considering the idea of not launching Pantheon with a PvP realm?
Before you get too concerned, I think you're misunderstanding a couple things:
1. What was said was that you will be able to feel a "sense of accomplishment" within a two hour session. Even if it's something small. That doesn't mean the entire game will be designed around 2 hour sessions. It's always important that you feel like your character is at least a little bit better than it was when you started the session, rather than spending those 2 hours just trying to find a group, as is sometimes the case with oldschool hardcore games. There will still be plenty of content to keep you occupied even if you play hardcore 12 hour days. The two playstyles are not mutually exclusive. From the FAQ:
Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards, levelling, earning new abilities, and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate are some ways to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your comrades need you to log in with them in order to advance. Most people who want to be part of a team, to be a team player, respond well to this pressure.
As for how ‘hardcore’ Pantheon will be, we’ve said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind we were referring to involves tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism. Pantheon will both challenge and entertain you."
2. No. Again, from the FAQ:
Pantheon is primarily a PvE (player vs. environment) game. In fact, when we say ‘environment’, we don’t just mean NPCs, but also contending with climates and atmospheres, the very world itself. That said, we understand that a portion of our target audience also enjoys player vs. player. Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP shards we would launch with. That being said, we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard. It is also worth mentioning that when we do eventually focus on PvP we will do so such that tweaks and changes to classes and races in order to make PvP more fun will not affect the balance of Pantheon’s PvE experience. As the game grows there could be additional variations of PvP shards and more attention paid to the unique gameplay mechanics associated with PvP.
Then why even bother with the answer they gave?
Why not say "Yes, there will be a PvP option" - why go on about how it will come "eventually" (which made me think they may not even launch with it), and that it won't be part of the core game? What does that even mean? This one interview has me very worried about the direction of Pantheon.
VR needs better PR.
Dulu said:Then why even bother with the answer they gave?
Why not say "Yes, there will be a PvP option" - why go on about how it will come "eventually" (which made me think they may not even launch with it), and that it won't be part of the core game? What does that even mean? This one interview has me very worried about the direction of Pantheon.
VR needs better PR.
They explained what they mean by "core game:"
Dulu said:This is the most concerning interview I've read about Pantheon.
Two huge red flags to me:
#1 "We know even our most hardcore players they have responsibilities now. We can't expect them to put in eight-hour sessions."
I thought this game was being designed for hardcore play? 8 hour sessions are nothing. If, like you said, you are designing this game for a guy to play 2 hours every few days... that leaves me wondering, who is the target audience really for this game?
#2 "Will this game have PvP?" -> VR response: "Eventually... but not as part of the core game."
Ouch. A dagger in my back. Does eventually mean you are even considering the idea of not launching Pantheon with a PvP realm?
1- me, I am the target audience for the game, and many others lke me.
2- this is one of the main selling points for me, no PVP. one thing I despise more than pvp; is pvp players.
and to the mmorpg interview... everything in this article is way too good to be true....
There may be a couple of pvp ruleset servers, if you don't like pvp, don't sign up to those particular servers.
I used to pvp a lot. I won't be this time around. Choose a non pvp server. :) Pantheon overall is a PVE game, this has been stated many times. :)
Cana
Dulu said:This is the most concerning interview I've read about Pantheon.
Two huge red flags to me:
#1 "We know even our most hardcore players they have responsibilities now. We can't expect them to put in eight-hour sessions."
I thought this game was being designed for hardcore play? 8 hour sessions are nothing. If, like you said, you are designing this game for a guy to play 2 hours every few days... that leaves me wondering, who is the target audience really for this game?
#2 "Will this game have PvP?" -> VR response: "Eventually... but not as part of the core game."
Ouch. A dagger in my back. Does eventually mean you are even considering the idea of not launching Pantheon with a PvP realm?
Pretty much depends how you play...some will only have time for a couple or three hours a day, others will play longer. I may play longer at the start, whilst running around exploring, doing things with a group or my guild. I think what they mean is it won't take 12 hours to accomplish something..not sure how that would work if your raid wipes. In the old days, an 8 hour corpse retrieval in the Plane of Fear wasn't unusual, (been there done that lol) I highly doubt there will be any handholding in Pantheon. :)
Cana
Here's a quote from Brad on that thread: "BRAD: We get that. Like Corey was saying we're there too.
This is an important point, we are designing the world where it's epic, it's huge, if you want to play 12 hours straight you can.
But we're designing it so that you and your buddies can get a sense of accomplishment in two-hour sessions.
So, dungeons will have areas that you can safely log out, come back in a couple days and keep going down deeper.
We know even our most hardcore players they have responsibilities now. We can't expect them to put in eight-hour sessions.
That's an important point we want everyone to know. Yes, it's an Epic game, yes, it's challenging, yes, it's social. But you don't have to devote your whole day to it and get in trouble with your spouse or lose your job or get kicked out of school."
MyNegation said:
1- me, I am the target audience for the game, and many others lke me.
2- this is one of the main selling points for me, no PVP. one thing I despise more than pvp; is pvp players.
and to the mmorpg interview... everything in this article is way too good to be true....
This is *EXACTLY* my same response and reply.
Dulu said:Why do you feel the need to trash PvP players? So what if you enjoy PVE.
The earlier FAQs said there would be PvP, and if there isn't at launch, I'm going to feel betrayed by Brad and his team.
As a person who has seen his fair share of fighting game tournaments in the years when I competed, I also enjoy some good PVP now and again. Although the biggest problem I have about pvp is when people get upset at losing which makes me feel bad, and also those who intentionally want to make others feel bad.
Funny how the spirit of competition is usually far from peoples minds when it comes to PVP. A lot of folks I know steer away from it because of the two things above.
I think it might be safe to plan on 10v10 or 3v3 instanced battlegrounds not being a thing. Dueling and pvp servers may be the extent of the support you are going to get.
Sorry,
-Todd
Dulu said:This is the most concerning interview I've read about Pantheon.
Two huge red flags to me:
#1 "We know even our most hardcore players they have responsibilities now. We can't expect them to put in eight-hour sessions."
I thought this game was being designed for hardcore play? 8 hour sessions are nothing. If, like you said, you are designing this game for a guy to play 2 hours every few days... that leaves me wondering, who is the target audience really for this game?
#2 "Will this game have PvP?" -> VR response: "Eventually... but not as part of the core game."
Ouch. A dagger in my back. Does eventually mean you are even considering the idea of not launching Pantheon with a PvP realm?
I am fairly certain that when they say "hardcore" they aren't referring to people spending absurd amounts of time to make progress or achieve things in the game but instead referring to the difficulty of the game and the weight of the punishments for failure.
As long as I have been following this they have been very clear about the fact that they are designing Pantheon as a PvE title, always saying that while there will be PvP server(s) they won't be a focus going out the gate and depending on the following/success of such servers they might get more time devoted to their own PvP balance.
...With Pantheon we've chosen to focus on PvE and making the E in PvE matter a lot more than it has for some time. We've decided to attract gamers who love to team up with each other and take on the AI -- cooperative gamers who want more than session based games but to work together in a truly persistent environment. We've decided to go after people who want to explore and experience vast handcrafted worlds with compelling storylines and quests. We've targeted the online gamer who when they experience something emotionally intense would rather experience that with other people -- that, to them at least, experiencing challenges and even overcoming them together and as a team provides for much more memorable shared experiences -- memories and nostalgia that just doesn't naturally occur in single player games or even in online games where the other players you encounter you really never have a reason to get to know.
And there are other MMOs out there focusing on different target audiences -- PvP-centric games, more storytelling and RP games that contain both online and offline experiences, and much more. We think this is great and that there's room for all sorts of MMOs. And even for those players who do want an online game but not one that takes time, or is difficult, one that is more casual and where making friends is truly optional -- we think it's great for those games to be undergoing development as well. The only difference is that there are already plenty of MMO-lite games like that -- already many that have been launched, and then many more still being worked on. And from a business perspective it really doesn't make sense for us to go and try to compete in an already well-served segment of the MMO genre. Rather it makes more sense for us, both from a business standpoint as well as a personal one, to go after the under-served segments and make MMOs that appeal not only to our target audience but also to ourselves.
-Brad McQuaid
Dulu said:Then why even bother with the answer they gave?
Why not say "Yes, there will be a PvP option" - why go on about how it will come "eventually" (which made me think they may not even launch with it), and that it won't be part of the core game? What does that even mean? This one interview has me very worried about the direction of Pantheon.
VR needs better PR.
Dulu,
Please understand that this article represents a small subset of what was actually said during the interview, through the filter of one individual, independent journalist whom we do not control. I've been giving interviews for decades now, and no matter how carefully questions are answered, or statements are made, never once have I read the resulting article and not had several jawdropping "that's not what I said" or "that's out of context," "that's not what I meant" or "that's not the spirit of what we discussed" moments.
Let's just make this clear: there has been absolutely no change in design or strategy: Pantheon will be hardcore and there will be at least one PvP realm at launch.
Kuripan said:Dulu said:Then why even bother with the answer they gave?
Why not say "Yes, there will be a PvP option" - why go on about how it will come "eventually" (which made me think they may not even launch with it), and that it won't be part of the core game? What does that even mean? This one interview has me very worried about the direction of Pantheon.
VR needs better PR.
Dulu,
Please understand that this article represents a small subset of what was actually said during the interview, through the filter of one individual, independent journalist whom we do not control. I've been giving interviews for decades now, and no matter how carefully questions are answered, or statements are made, never once have I read the resulting article and not had several jawdropping "that's not what I said" or "that's out of context" or "that's not what I meant" moments.
Let's just make this clear: Pantheon will be hardcore and there will be at least one PvP realm at or very soon after launch.
So this confirms it then, there may NOT be a PvP server at launch? I'm not trying to be a contrarion, I just want a little clarity on this topic.
There are still questions about whether or not to launch with a PvP server?
So this confirms it then, there may NOT be a PvP server at launch? I'm not trying to be a contrarion, I just want a little clarity on this topic.
There are still questions about whether or not to launch with a PvP server?
Please refer to the FAQ:
"Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP shards we would launch with. That being said, we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard."
Kuripan said:So this confirms it then, there may NOT be a PvP server at launch? I'm not trying to be a contrarion, I just want a little clarity on this topic.
There are still questions about whether or not to launch with a PvP server?
Please refer to the FAQ:
"Our experience is that separate PvE and PvP shards is the answer, however it is too early to predict how many PvP shards we would launch with. That being said, we will definitely launch with at least one player vs. player shard."
Well, your exact words contradicted the FAQ, hence why I asked for clarification.
So I am glad to hear that the game will launch with at least one PvP shard... FFA I can only hope!
However I do feel the need to share my concern with the separation of PvP and PvE in games today. Over the years, few games have offered the rewards that games like UO and SWG did... why? There was PvP and PvE for All!
Yes, PvP can be a sore spot for many but just like life there are great rewards from over coming strife! Some of us deal with strife better than others and for this reason the debate over PvP and PvE exists. Just like in life, some are more comfortable with risk than others.
Now in UO there was originally one open world where PvP was always a possibility. Later they added a world that was attached to the original that was PvE (all be it other ways to create mischief and mayhem). I had loads of fun in the PvP world and likewise in the PvE as I would use trapped chests, poisoned apples, etc to cause the death of the unsuspecting and then loot their stuff. In addition, I was also the recepient of actions as well. We even had a network of friends back in the day with ICQ & IRC that allowed people to call for help... should it be at the hands of players or just getting over their head in a particular dungeon. The challenges of the game and the reward in the form of the memories of overcoming the odds are far better than any loot received.
SWG was a bit different but similar. There was the conflict between the Rebels and the Empire... you may have heard about it! It does make for a good movie so it can't be all that wrong... can it? So in SWG you could choose to be flagged for PvP. Choosing was active or passive. Active being flagging on purpose and passive, flagging by accident due to an action. Some of us stayed flagged because it was fun. Others rarely flagged at all but they were happy supporting the members of the community that did engage in the PvP conflict as that was part of the story.
So PvP is so much more than many will ever know because the majority of people are more comfortable with a fantasy world that lacks strife and the reward for overcoming it. Yea I get it... it is not fun being owned by someone else. Heck it is not fun being owned by a MOB either but for some reason people are okay knowing that a MOB/NPC owned them rather than another player? Maybe the simple reward of overcoming is not enough carrot for people to deal with a stick? Maybe that is the answer! It is hard for me to say as I am okay with the carrot the way it is.
I would love for Panthoeon (or some other game yet unknown) to be a world that caters to both PvP and PvE in a way that allows interaction between both so that others can possibly experience the rewards of overcoming strife that otherwise makes them uncomfortable. It really is a liberating experience that most find addicting after experiencing. And yes I am also against participation trophies but I'll save that for another discussion. :-)
Okay I know many will want to disagree so I only invite you to the idea of new experiences so that you might grow from it.
Animae said:Yes, PvP can be a sore spot for many but just like life there are great rewards from over coming strife! Some of us deal with strife better than others and for this reason the debate over PvP and PvE exists. Just like in life, some are more comfortable with risk than others.
The issue for me when it comes to PvP in an MMO is that it is very rarely a skill based bout between two+ persons of equal (or even near equal) footing/gear and instead is most often just one more powerful player dumpstering someone else. The great reward from overcoming strife being nothing more than being able to continue doing what you were trying to do in the first place while keeping an eye over your shoulder. It's okay to get stomped by an NPC because the player at least has some say on when they choose to take on the risk as well as options to disengage/flee, but the same cannot be said for player assailants.
It has been said many times by VR that Pantheon is, first and foremost, a PVE game. That being said, as has already been stated, there will be PVP (amount of servers to be determined later). If you read the tenets of the game and somehow thought "Oh, this is going to be a great PVP game! Sign me up!" then you need to go reread the tenets. PVE is the main focus of this game...period. If VR suddenly announced "Uhmm, guys and gals, we are making this game open world PVP and..." I'd demand a refund and not play.
Iksar said:The issue for me when it comes to PvP in an MMO is that it is very rarely a skill based bout between two+ persons of equal (or even near equal) footing/gear and instead is most often just one more powerful player dumpstering someone else. The great reward from overcoming strife being nothing more than being able to continue doing what you were trying to do in the first place while keeping an eye over your shoulder. It's okay to get stomped by an NPC because the player at least has some say on when they choose to take on the risk as well as options to disengage/flee, but the same cannot be said for player assailants.
Exactly what I am trying to say. In both of the games I listed there was a mechanic for allowing both PvP and PvE content on the same server. Doing so allows for a larger more diverse community base that supports both interests. SWG was great because there was PvP progression that allowed for perks associated with your Rebel or Imperial participation. Don't want to PvP then no problem but PvPers get to buy your crafted items etc.