Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

No random loot boxes please!

    • 7 posts
    November 28, 2017 1:51 PM PST

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/266670347107018/?multi_permalinks=378683395905712¬if_id=1511904931494359¬if_t=like

    There is already an initiative in Europe to remove this practice and implement legislation to enforce it. I am just hoping that the payment model for Pantheon did not look to use random loot boxes to supplement income.

    • 1860 posts
    November 28, 2017 1:52 PM PST

    Lol no, we wouldn't be here if that was ever the plan.

    • 2130 posts
    November 28, 2017 1:53 PM PST

    Okay.

    • 563 posts
    November 28, 2017 2:26 PM PST

    There will be no cash shop in Pantheon, or any way to spend money on in game stuff :)

    In the FAQ:

    "15.0 What is Pantheon’s Revenue Model? Will the game be pay to play, free to play, freemium or what?

    We are considering either using the traditional subscription based model or a model where the player buys the game and then has the option of purchasing mini-expansions or ‘modules’ after launch. Either way, the game’s world will continue to expand, more content will be added, as well as new features and mechanics. Visionary Realms strongly believes that the revenue model of an MMO needs to match the game’s target audience. Because of this, Pantheon will not be ‘freemium’ or have ‘cash shops’ -- building your character and advancing in-game will be based on time invested and tactics used, not on how much money the player has in real life."


    This post was edited by Rachael at November 28, 2017 2:26 PM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:15 PM PST

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."


    This post was edited by Aradune at November 28, 2017 3:17 PM PST
    • 24 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:19 PM PST

    Are you meaning like Plat in to token Item or ingame Purchase for cash for the token?

     

    Lol you answered while I was responding.

     

    I have mixed feeling about this, It was nice to be able to just farm a bit of ingame money to cover the cost of a month. But I did see the impact of the Pay to win that it brought in to the game. I also saw the destruction of the ingame economy.

     


    This post was edited by Tsanarith at November 28, 2017 3:24 PM PST
    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:21 PM PST

    Tsanarith said:

    Are you meaning like Plat in to token Item or ingame Purchase for cash for the token?

     

    Not sure -- it's been done a little differently depending on the game.  It came up in a discussion recently.  My immediate reaction was 'NO!'.  But then after more thought and dialog I thought there was at least enough merit and precedence in other games to bring it to the community and get your reaction.  To be clear:  totally hypothetical at this point -- would love your opinions and experiences (if any) in MMOs that used such a system.  

    • 1434 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:21 PM PST

    As long as it stays on those alternate ruleset servers. I also think there should be limitations as to how much of it you can buy in a given timeframe. Allowing a single person, or guild of people, to buy thousands of dollars of plex to hoard items and currency would inevitably trivialize their progression as well as have a negative impact on the server and other players.

    • 257 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:25 PM PST

    In theory that sounds nice. In practice; however, anytime there is a way to convert game currency to real currency in mmo's the botters come in full force. I've played many games where I really just didn't care about the botters and ignored them. In mmo's though, it's a huge PITA. I would suggest other means of rewards to players like the /claimreward systems. After so many months of gametime or other measurement you choose) you get xyz. Just don't attach it to gold, please.

    • 563 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:28 PM PST

    Dullahan said:

    As long as it stays on those alternate ruleset servers. I also think there should be limitations as to how much of it you can buy in a given timeframe. Allowing a single person, or guild of people, to buy thousands of dollars of plex to hoard items and currency would inevitably trivialize their progression as well as have a negative impact on the server and other players.

    This is my worry with such a system, get a big guild/weathy players that buy a bunch of this then sells it in game, essentially they just bought a bunch of currency or items with real money, they just took an extra step doing it :S

    • 2130 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:28 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

    Sounds like the best incentive for RMT I've ever heard and a lot of people are rubbing their hands together at the prospect of how profitable it will be to play Pantheon in the future.

    • 98 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:28 PM PST

    Re: the game time for in game money

    Causes a lot of farming and congestion in high value camps as people farm the amount necessary to get free game time. On the other hand it's not bad for the company because all those tokens had to be bought through the company before they can be traded in game, so they still profit off it.

    Overall I don't like it because it does break the fourth wall quite a bit and the hardcore campers would only get more annoying as time goes on once people figure out how to min/max their profits.

    • 1618 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:30 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

    Everquest 2 has a similar item, Krono, that is the same thing. You pay for equivalent of one months sub and get a tradable item. You can use it to cover your sub, or sell it to someone else. It allows those that can get plat easy to pay for their sub without spending real cash. And players with more RL money than playtime to get plat.

    Basically, it stops gold-farmers, making it legal, as long as you do it through the publisher.

    However, many people on the server feel it ruins the market and rewards pay to play. 

    If you did this, you should only do it on a special server with NO OPTION TO TRANSFER ANYTHING to another server.

    Also, world firsts should not come from this server.


    This post was edited by Beefcake at November 28, 2017 3:32 PM PST
    • 753 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:33 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

    On one hand, it sort of short-circuits gold farming to an extent, because rather than buying gold from a third party, people can just buy the item for game time and sell it for gold.  I guess that's not a horrid thing - but still, I'm not really a fan.  People who can afford it can simply buy themselves an in-game fortune by buying those items and selling them.  Someone with a lot of real world cash with devious intent could the use that fortune to impact the in game economy, etc...

    I know I wouldn't pick that server to play on.

     


    This post was edited by Wandidar at November 28, 2017 3:33 PM PST
    • 257 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:36 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

    Everquest 2 has a similar item, Krono, that is the same thing. You pay for equivalent of one months sub and get a tradable item. You can use it to cover your sub, or sell it to someone else. It allows those that can get plat easy to pay for their sub without spending real cash. And players with more RL money than playtime to get plat.

    Basically, it stops gold-farmers, making it legal, as long as you do it through the publisher.

    However, many people on the server feel it ruins the market and rewards pay to play. 

    If you did this, you should only do it on a special server with NO OPTION TO TRANSFER ANYTHING to another server.

    Also, world firsts should not come from this server.

    I think a special ruleset server with absolutely no way to trade across servers should solve any issue. The only concern I have at that point is the Sony effect where they change the rules later and make it available ... at a cost.

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:42 PM PST

    Let me ask a follow-up question then:

    Were we to do this on an alternate ruleset server, not allow any transfers of anything to other servers (as mentioned above), if your job was to design it, how would you do it?

    The goal would be to stop gold farming.

    The *only* item purchasable for real money would be PLEX item.

    This sort of goes back to idea vs implementation -- can such a system be designed to minimize the negatives you've brought up and maximize the positives?  Could it be designed to do more good than harm?


    This post was edited by Aradune at November 28, 2017 3:43 PM PST
    • 1434 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:43 PM PST

    Well the purpose of it would be to get players who don't want to play a subscription by giving them a way to earn that subscription in game. Which is great in theory, but left unchecked it ends up giving massive advantage to people willing to dump loads of cash into the system. It will also attract a different type of player and change the feel of the game. Not sure if that would be a compromise worth making.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at November 28, 2017 3:49 PM PST
    • 7 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:43 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

    I pray VR never goes this route. This type of practice destroys game economies. I have seen it in practice in EQ, EQ2, and WoW since all three offer an item, monthly sub tokens in this case, that can be sold for ingame currency. GW2 does this as well with their instant cash to ingame currency (gems to gold) conversion, which has caused black market prices to be extremely skewed. Prices for items sold by players should be based on the player playing the game and rewards gained from directly playing the game. Prices for items/drops ingame should never be based on how large your wallet is. I could see allowing folks to pay for their sub with ingame currency would be a good way to reward extensive gameplay but at the same time keep the subscription item no-trade.

    I do not have any issue with appearance type items that are no-trade, hopefully heirloom, being available for cash. Skins for mounts would be ok as well. As long those items sold do not give an overt advantage to players who buy those items with cash.


    This post was edited by dvious1 at November 28, 2017 3:45 PM PST
    • 1618 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:45 PM PST

    Retsof said:

    I think a special ruleset server with absolutely no way to trade across servers should solve any issue. The only concern I have at that point is the Sony effect where they change the rules later and make it available ... at a cost.

    This is the biggest concern. Don't get the community to allow this, since it's only on specialized servers, then later change the rules to bring it elsewhere.

    • 2130 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:51 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me ask a follow-up question then:

    Were we to do this on an alternate ruleset server, not allow any transfers of anything to other servers (as mentioned above), if your job was to design it, how would you do it?

    The goal would be to stop gold farming.

    The *only* item purchasable for real money would be PLEX item.

    This sort of goes back to idea vs implementation -- can such a system be designed to minimize the negatives you've brought up and maximize the positives?  Could it be designed to do more good than harm?

    If you can purchase a tradeable in-game item with real money, you've inadvertently put a real money value on every item in the game. You've also effectively put a real money exchange rate on your in-game currency.

    The PLEX item must necessarily be tradeable for something else. If the majority of the gear in the game is tradeable between players, then the majority of the gear in the game became purchasable with some amount of real money.

    Even if you isolated PLEX to a specific server, you would still be inviting a huge burden on VR to police third party transactions that go across servers. Over a long enough period of time scenarios like the following would probably start occurring:

    "WTT 3 PLEX on X-PLEX-Only server for a Fungi on Y server"

    This is in addition to the already uniquely high burden VR will have in a game where the majority of the loot is tradeable, if that is the path Pantheon takes.

    • 48 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:53 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

    I can see the concept, This gives people who game a more often a chance to use in game currency to pay for their own subscription to the game essentially. At the same time giving people who can't game a way to purchase said currency from these players.

    There is a very fine line when we go into paying real currency to in game currency. Playing devils advocate here, what would stop me from buying tokens all day, with my six figure income, then cornering markets weather they be bazzars or auction houses or what have you. This would essentially turn into  a pay to win situation. 

    However, being as it is a server with said rule set, that in turn would mean that people on that server would have a general understanding that the economy would be more dynamic. 

    Yet another devil advocate moment, what would stop that from trickling into other severs, via a character transfer or something of that sort.

    So I personally would say I wouldn't play on such a sever. I would also hope sever transfters wouldn't be allowed from that sever in anyway shape or form. To protect the other economies.

    I'm not for pay to win, then again I like purchasing ingame items to support the game too. 

    If you only stuck with cosmetic or nostalgic items only. Nothing that effected the actual gameplay, ie(wedding dress, tux, maybe a pets(this is toeing that line for some), make up, earings(no stats), hair style or color, so on and so forth... You might find some are more likely to support you. One because some people just want a pair of glasses on their character, two because none of these things effect the game play. They are just for looks. No bags, no stats, nothing that essentially would effect the game. If you want to make it non-tradeable that would prevent people with cash from selling the items to people want to buy these items with gold. Yet still providing a way to support the dev community aside from the subscription alone.

    Going the other way...

    If you have two expansions... 1st lvl cap lvl 50 2nd lvl cap lvl 60... and upon release of said second expansion you also opened up a store, this store however only sold say blue items to assist with lvling but only up to lvl say 40.... maaaaayyyyyybe 50.... this would slow down pay to win... it would be pay to assist you to lvl 50 then goooooooood luck from there. 

    Personally i spend money on games. Personally i work entrirely too hard. Which means I don't mind paying for some stuff to make things more enjoyable because my time is limited. The sad thing with the concept is that it turns into never stopping. So eventually it starts to effect people who have worked there butts off to get the endgame elite stuff.

    I use to play games 20 hours a day... lol i miss those days.

    I don't want to take away from those people that can still do that and acheive great feats because of how much time they have to play the game.

    Money with gaming, time with gaming... it's all really coming to time/money

    some have more of one less of the other.

    It's a very difficult equation to solve or balance.

    Hope this helps in some way...

    • 24 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:54 PM PST

    I couldnt see it affect gold farming, even in wow where they set this up, I know a ton of people that do nothing but Farm gold to buy the token, on implementation the token Cost about 25k gold ingame, as of right now at least on my main server its running about 180K. Basic lowbie gear/ Crafting Mats are so expensive only the wealthy can afford to buy through the auction house that leads in to persons playing the auction house, buying out the cheap stuff an putting it back up for a massivily inflated price(this happens alot anyway just seems alot worse now). I cant see a decent way to implement this with out causing issues with the economy.

    • VR Staff
    • 587 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:54 PM PST

    Beefcake said:

    Retsof said:

    I think a special ruleset server with absolutely no way to trade across servers should solve any issue. The only concern I have at that point is the Sony effect where they change the rules later and make it available ... at a cost.

    This is the biggest concern. Don't get the community to allow this, since it's only on specialized servers, then later change the rules to bring it elsewhere.

    Totally hear you guys.  Again:

    1. This is just an idea that I wanted to bring to you all and hear your experiences and thoughts.  There are *NO* plans for such a server.

    2. We would isolate it and not allow transfers and such

    3. We would *never* change the rules and bring it to a regular server.

    • 57 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:56 PM PST

    Aradune said:

    Let me try to throw you guys a curve ball -- curious as to what you guys think of:

    An alternate ruleset server where you *can* buy an item that represents a month of playtime (but that's all, no other real money purchases)?

    Sometimes called PLEX.  Here's how WoW originally described it:

    "We’re exploring the possibility of giving players a way to buy tradable game-time tokens for the purpose of exchanging them in-game with other players for gold. Our current thought on this is that it would give players a way to use their surplus gold to cover some of their subscription cost, while giving players who might have less play time an option for acquiring gold from other players through a legit and secure system."

     

    To me, I could back that because I usually have a excessive amount of gold because of how much time I play. I think this was the original idea of the Krono in EQ / EQ ][ or Plex in Eve? However at least in EQ, it's become the standard to for a value of a item that value constantly changes as the game ages. I love to play games, I just can't always afford to play the games anymore do to family expenditures. I'm currecntly sitting on 6 krono (aquired by selling my gold to guildies to help there crafting expenidures on Agnarr) that to me are completely useless once Pantheon starts.

    • 3237 posts
    November 28, 2017 3:58 PM PST

    I would want nothing to do with a server like that.  It's basically legal RMT and it destroys the "culture" of any server that it touches.