Check out this video from ashes of creation. Particularly towards the end part where they do some group combat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4YDvOW8qZ4&ab_channel=MMOHQ
They seem to be coming up with a hybrid combat system that is still based on traditional tab targeting but involves some action combat mechanics, like dodging and a unique reflex mechanism that increases skill damage. They also have small skill chains called combos, not exactly a "rotation" but kinda. It looks really slick compared to some of the pantheon combat footage we've seen.
The team has talked a lot about their philosophies in crafting the world and the classes and so on. My question is if there any philosophies guiding the combat engine design? Are you guys sticking to the tried and true EQ\WoW combat or looking to build on that? How complete is the combat engine we're seeing in pre-alpha?
That actually looks pretty amazing, not gonna lie. I like the hybrid active combat system with tab targeting, they've done a very good job striking a balance there. The animations and telegraphing is on par with Dark Souls.
The reactive combo system looks really cool. However, this was also only a demo, not even remotely a full game world. I'll be interested to see what it looks like when it actually looks like an MMO.
Seemed a bit odd when they could initiate combat with a combo? I prefer effects that require more than one class/archetype to pull them off. I mean, having things like "you debuff this target with a resistance to your primary damage type" is fine, but there are better options to encourage group/social/co-op combat. If what they're showing there in the video are ALL co-op combo's? Well that's pretty awesome, but there are no status effect indicators anywhere, so it just looks like everyone is spamming everything and hoping for the best..
In the larger fight with the boss at the end, it seemed to completely ignore the temporary wall that was used, so I'm not sure what was going on there. A few spurious unknown damages to the primary player, but that's forgiveable at this stage of development. There also seemed to be no way to avoid some of the damage from the boss, despite the primary player constantly being on the move and constantly at range, which .. I guess could be latency related, but you would hope not.
Ashes of Creation looks like it will be a solid game experience. There's a lot of things that look great here.
However, the combat system is hardly revolutionary, it strikes me as very similar to the likes of Neverwinter Online, and while the action oriented combat is fun, group content often feels like you're still not using teamwork to accomplish anything. Just 4 or whatever individuals who just happen to run around together as a group. Content becomes very twitch based, heavily reliant on the individual's ability to avoid mechanics, and the rest of your team have close to zero agency in helping eachother out in accomplishing that.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be an individual responsibility to avoid mechanics or adapt accordingly to a situation, but this looks more like "run at packs of mobs and AoE everything down, where success and defeat is dependent on the amount of stats you have on your gear. Either you have enough damage, defence and health, or you don't.
Where Pantheon looks to differ, is to make every part of the environment a high potential risk of death (assuming its level appropriate), and that even regular monsters and areas require mulitple people working together, performing various tasks and roles to progress. It's a much more slow, tactical and methodical approach to combat, where the careful approach is incentivized by the severity of death. Think of it more like playing chess - where every action can have dramatic positive or negative effect on the outcome, and where you're rewarded for thinking critically about how and where you want to move your pieces ahead of time. For this style of combat I think the tried and true system of a mostly targeting system serves the purpose well.
Some of these action styled MMO's is more like American Ninja Warrior, where everything is a race, and your ability to get through or get a good time is largely dependent on how strong and fast your character is, and how good your response time is. Obviously those things need to matter in Pantheon as well, but it shouldn't be the whole picture.
To answer your question, I think what we've seen in Pantheon so far is just a proof of concept. The core mechanics are there, but it is obviously lacking in overall completion. Every class that's been introduced have only been shown to have the most basic of skills you've come to expect from their class or archtype, while the FAQ clearly state the intent is to have a variety of different skills and abilities dependent on the situation you have to handle. A large part of gameplay will be to anticipate the right skills and abilities for the content at hand. Your approach may differ dependant on your group's composition, the climate you have to fight in, or the type of monsters you will encounter. This sort of planning is further extended to your gear, where some weapons for instance, may prove more potent for one situation over another. Experience and communication will play a large part of your group's ability to succeed.
Pantheon will likely not be the most flashy of combat systems out there, but it will require thinking, teamwork and careful planning for everything you do. Animations, and spell effects matter, but it I doubt it will see as much of a resource investment you'd typically see in a more expensively developed game. That being said, I think we're far from the finished product when it comes to that part of the game either.
The benefit of an ongoing developed game, is that this is also something that can be improved post-launch. The important thing is to make the quality of it good enough to not turn people off. I am not worried though, as they clearly have some talented people among their staff, and if the graphical improvements, and philosophy behind every minor thing from building placement, scale and purpose is anything to go by, the same amount of effort will be extended to animations and the like.
I pledged to AoC and have 3 months of sub time from that (I pledged as I want to see MMORPGs king again). I think 3 months is probably the amount of time till I get bored with it. I cannot escape the feeling that it's a rework of GW2. Especially the chaos of a GW2 dungeon run.
It was the combat that turned me off this game. I can only imagine the nightmare a raid would be. Dodging AoEs, kiting adds, running to "safe" points, and using interrupts all the while keeping an eye on the "combo bar". This was rolled out at PAX West and was not received very well even people like Deaths Proxy on YouTube had reservations and that is the channel that put me onto AoC. It felt that it was bolted on just to have something to show at the event. The "boss" fight looked like they just ran around and hit buttons in that "spectacular" PvP twitch style gameplay.
My preference is for a strategic combat system where every class role plays an important part, and tactics more so. I really doubt the AoC combat style would be even considered for Pantheon.
Some snippets from the FAQ which show VRs direction.
"We realize that some MMOs have used a more ‘action’ oriented combat system, where you click on different buttons to attack, swing your sword, dodge, etc. With Pantheon, combat will still be action-packed and require close attention, using tactics, as well as reacting to what mobs and other players may be doing. In fact, so much will be going on that you will not want to have to worry about whether you are swinging your sword or not -- you will be casting spells, assuming stances, countering or deflecting your opponent’s moves and spells, and more. Additionally, while you can either click directly on a mob or simply use the tab key to change targets, there will also be a subset of spells where you can target the ground (for example, some area-of-effect spells)."
"The player will have enough time to react to what the NPC is doing (counterspell, deflect, move out of the way, etc.). Combat is more involved and the player will need to pay attention, but it is not ‘twitch’ in the way a first-person shooter is."
Two completely different games for two completely different audiences. One is PvE and one is PvP.
IMO VR and Intrepid have two very different philosophies and goals.
I want both to do well.
I too am hoping that Pantheons combat finds the revamp team putting in a little work to make it a little more engaging for all. HOWEVER, combat in Pantheon is just going to take longer. We see those mobs in that video dieing in a matter of seconds. The only mobs I've seen die that fast in the videos of Pantheon have been when it's a snake the group was 6 levels higher than the snake.
It's VR's job and hopefully they do something with it, but I agree, combat in Pantheon, right now, is a pretty boring aspect for anyone other than the healer. Some people want that though and it may be the design they are moving towards. Maybe they want it so a mage can just sit at max range and blast away.
It's hard to come up with a mechanic or design that would be engaging to all, yet fun and not overly complicated or out of place. To do this, I think it's not so much trying to do somehting for the players, but doing something with the AI of the mobs we fight.
Mobs needs more be able to cure a root, gain immunity to a stun, gain immunity to a mez. And those abilities for mobs should be on a cool down timer, just as they are for players. It's annoying always seeing a mob rooted, but never curing that root. Are they really that dumb? They also need to be smart(er), I know they have threat meters, but the taunt mechanic is worn. Instead of just taunt and target lock from the tank, your healers and high dps classes should have to pay attention to themselves. Wizard, huge nuke, think the mobs going to run to you. Your next spell should be an illision, or a mind wipe, or something other than just standing there nuking and hoping the game is designed to give tanks 'rescue's or target locks.
Kittik said:I too am hoping that Pantheons combat finds the revamp team putting in a little work to make it a little more engaging for all. HOWEVER, combat in Pantheon is just going to take longer. We see those mobs in that video dieing in a matter of seconds. The only mobs I've seen die that fast in the videos of Pantheon have been when it's a snake the group was 6 levels higher than the snake.
It's VR's job and hopefully they do something with it, but I agree, combat in Pantheon, right now, is a pretty boring aspect for anyone other than the healer. Some people want that though and it may be the design they are moving towards. Maybe they want it so a mage can just sit at max range and blast away.
It's hard to come up with a mechanic or design that would be engaging to all, yet fun and not overly complicated or out of place. To do this, I think it's not so much trying to do somehting for the players, but doing something with the AI of the mobs we fight.
Mobs needs more be able to cure a root, gain immunity to a stun, gain immunity to a mez. And those abilities for mobs should be on a cool down timer, just as they are for players. It's annoying always seeing a mob rooted, but never curing that root. Are they really that dumb? They also need to be smart(er), I know they have threat meters, but the taunt mechanic is worn. Instead of just taunt and target lock from the tank, your healers and high dps classes should have to pay attention to themselves. Wizard, huge nuke, think the mobs going to run to you. Your next spell should be an illision, or a mind wipe, or something other than just standing there nuking and hoping the game is designed to give tanks 'rescue's or target locks.
I believe the Pancake AI and dispositions will solve the problem with static combats. They have only started to show what they plan to do. But, the AI dev gave quite a few details on how it will work.
I do not like the AoC combat one bit, seems really generic and most abilities don't have real impact in gameplay (animations are flashy though), the "timed-reaction" bar is cluncky and anoying forcing you to look at a cast bar instead of the world, and from what I saw there's 0 mana management.
I preffer the EQ/WoW combat a lot more specially WoW, it's my favourite mmo combat to date, not overly complex but does the job and the way Pantheon is shaping up I believe it will be similar to it.
As for the combos some people mentioned, I love combos, they make combat that much more interesting, give more oportunites to min/max and avoid the cookie cutter rotations, if you have "inter-class" combos that will even be better and really shake up the combat due to all the combinations possible between diferent classes.
I agree with all that's gone before. I still feel Pantheon has a solid base to work from and that it can only improve as alpha passes. The disposition alone should make for some interesting encounters, couple that with environments and it feels more "intellectual" than mashing buttons.
It's been said already that mobs in AoC (not bashing) die too quickly. I don't want to see a mob die in seconds, to do so would invalidate risk vs reward. I want tactics to shine through, learning the best weapons to use on certain mobs. I want to see a Monk performing a spectacular split pull, the Enchanter pulling off a timely mez, or the Rogue saving a wipe with Smoke and Mirrors.
AoC looks like a game venturing into a zergfest. That is not something I want to play anymore, I have had several years of that in WoW.
I want combat that as a tank, healer, DPS, or support I can dig my teeth into, and feel I contributed.
Ashvaild said: I understand that some people like more active combat... personally I'm happy with the EQ/pantheon version. I think the difficulty will come with the different types of mobs. But to each their own. The game isn't about crazy intense combat for me. I'd play dark souls for that. Im all about exploring the world and lore
I too hope Pantheon sticks with tradional combat. I'm burnt out on action combat in all the other games I dabble in now, I want something different.
Lots of games have action based combat. GW2, Wildstar, Tera, BDO, etc. I will likely try AoC too. I don't dislike that style, I just Like EQ style in Pantheon.
if I want action combat, I will play an action combat MMO.
GW2 and Wildstar are my two Favorites for action combat. The Mezmer in GW2 was Amazing. The Medic in Wildstar was a So Fun.
Pantheon's combat looks and feels way more interesting than AoC's to me. I hope Pantheon will stay true to traditional combat with some twist, like chainable abilities (Vanguard crit's) and Exploiting Weaknesses that your party members create (Vanguard's Exploit Weakness System), and counterspell windows, etc.
The combat in this video looks generic and easy to me, I don't like it. Looks like the AoE fest GW2 was, with mouse targeted AoE's and very little thought.
In the past action combat has lacked combat depth and strategy and AoC doesn't seem to change that based on that video. Why do you need to target AoE with mouse? It's not like it's more skillful, you barely need to aim it, monsters are slow or are standing still and the AoE's are huge.
I'd understand if it was actually difficult to aim, or dodge, or react, but it isn't and it doesn't even require super fast reflexes or anything that mechanically skilled players like. It's a MMORPG and it needs to take into consideration lowest common denominators - slow computer/monitor, etc. For some it'll feel hard, for some it'll feel too easy. Then you also need to account for roundtrip latency, which adds RNG based on your location to reaction time for dodging/comboing. You'll just end up with reaction windows that are far too lenient and not truly skillful.
Why use lipstick on a pig? I've never understood action combat in MMORPG. When I need to scratch my itch for twitchy combat I play FPS games which usually have way better netcode than MMORPGS, that tries to make it more fair.
AgentGenX said:I too hope Pantheon sticks with tradional combat. I'm burnt out on action combat in all the other games I dabble in now, I want something different.
Same here, I dislike action combat like ESO, GW2 by having to dodge and block, that works good for single player games but if you are having to do all that you cant talk to your group unless everyone is using voice but even then its alot harder to have a conversation due to the concentration level of reflex encounters. Raid encounters are different as you normally dont talk during a fight but group content, I like to have my dodge type skills be passive and a dice roll.
Alot of people seem to want flashy moves and if so there are games out there that have that but traditional EQ style combat is really what I want to see, and I believe that is the vision for Pantheon.
Veltan said:Pantheon's combat looks and feels way more interesting than AoC's to me. I hope Pantheon will stay true to traditional combat, with some twist, like chainable abilities (Vanguard crit's), and Exploiting Weaknesses that your party members create (Vanguard's Exploit Weakness System), and counterspell windows, etc.
The combat in this video looks generic and easy to me, I don't like it. Looks the AoE fest that GW2 was, with mouse targeted AoE's and very little thought.
In the past action combat has lacked combat depth and strategy and AoC doesn't seem to change that based on that video. Why do you need to target AoE with mouse? It's not like it's more skillful, you barely need to aim it, monsters are slow or are standing still and the AoE's are huge.
I'd understand if it was actually difficult to aim, or dodge, or react, but it isn't and it doesn't even require super fast reflexes or anything that mechanically skilled players like. It's a MMORPG and it needs to take into consideration lowest common denominator, slow computer/monitor setups, unlike FPS games. For some it'll feel hard, for some it'll feel too easy. Then you also need to account for roundtrip latency, which adds RNG based on your location to reaction time for dodging/comboing... Meh.. You'll just end up with reaction windows that are far too lenient and not truly skillful.
Why use lipstick on a pig? I've never understood action combat in MMORPG. When I need to scratch my itch for twitchy combat, I play FPS games which usually have way better netcode than MMORPGS, that tries to make it more fair.
Very good post. 100% agree
Kittik said:I too am hoping that Pantheons combat finds the revamp team putting in a little work to make it a little more engaging for all.
Ashvaild said: I understand that some people like more active combat... personally I'm happy with the EQ/pantheon version. I think the difficulty will come with the different types of mobs. But to each their own. The game isn't about crazy intense combat for me. I'd play dark souls for that. Im all about exploring the world and lore
What I said wasn't meant for the engagement of combat, I was talking specifically about character and mob animations.
I'd like to see more animations. And hopefully not every humaniod does the same type of manuevers.
Liav said:EQ's combat is too simple, that much is certain to me.
There's a huge difference between increasing combat complexity over a laugably simple game like EQ, and going full-on action combat.
Agreed. My short stint in playing P99, I was extreamly bored after engaging a klikac warror. Not much I could do after I hit melee attack.