Does anyone know if will we have a combo system that would encourage players to play together?
I have a good memory of Heroic Opporunities in Everquest 2. Depending on the combo, we would get mana regen, DPS boost, etc. It was a little annoying to use them, but I feel that if the system would have been improved, it would have been really cool.
Imagine a combo where you need specific classes and abilities and a specific order that would involve 4 or 5 type of actions in a row to succeed. I feel it would make sense with the lore and the game in general. Let's say a Rogue performs a slashing attack, if the monster bleeds, the following acid or poison attack should do more damage for example.
Scout were the best to start those Heroic Opportunities. By yourself, you could not really enjoy them fully or you were not able to finish them. But in a full group, it was fun and the animations were really beautiful! Sometimes, it would make the difference between a successful encounter or dying. You can read about it here: Heroic Opportunities
In Pantheon, we could see special effects linked to different mana colors?
I read something else too that made me think of Heroic Opporunities in Pantheon but I can't remember where. It was basically a sort of talent that people could pick in their abilities in order to combo abilities. I think I probably read that from a VR stream with CohCarnage where one of the VR employee showed his book of abilities book. Anybody know what I am talking about?
I like what you're proposing. I too found Heroic Opporunities annoying; a cycle too long. Took too much away from the fun and game. But the rewards were nicely displayed.
It would be nice if the different classes and races had a touch of culture traits that would have impact on a cast chain.
Kalok said:I haven't heard them mention anything like that, YET, in any of the streams. But given that we are still pre-pre-alpha, I wouldn't necessarily say no either.
It was not discussed during the stream, but if I remember correctly, it was one of the ability/talent from a book that was open for a few seconds. I believe in was in the shaman or rogue video, we were able to see multiple page of that book and one abilities made me think of Heroic Opportunities.
The potential is huge. Imagine, you know that some type of monster have a weakness in piercing or divine damage, your group leader would start an Heroic Opportunity and the group needs to perform the right type of actions in the right order to get the effect they desire. There were about 20-30 different heroic opportunities, some would take only 2 actions and others 5 or 6 actions.
Brad mentionned he wants us to change our gear: weapon/armor and prepare ourself before a specific encounter. A system like that could be a cool addition to reward players that make extra efforts to be be efficient.
Ithaca said:Kalok said:I haven't heard them mention anything like that, YET, in any of the streams. But given that we are still pre-pre-alpha, I wouldn't necessarily say no either.
It was not discussed during the stream, but if I remember correctly, it was one of the ability/talent from a book that was open for a few seconds. I believe in was in the shaman or rogue video, we were able to see multiple page of that book and one abilities made me think of Heroic Opportunities.
The potential is huge. Imagine, you know that some type of monster have a weakness in piercing or divine damage, your group leader would start an Heroic Opportunity and the group needs to perform the right type of actions in the right order to get the effect they desire. There were about 20-30 different heroic opportunities, some would take only 2 actions and others 5 or 6 actions.
Brad mentionned he wants us to change our gear: weapon/armor and prepare ourself before a specific encounter. A system like that could be a cool addition to reward players that make extra efforts to be be efficient.
Yeah. I am watching one of the three hour streams... I hadn't seen this one before.
This discussion came up quite early on these forums and the general attitude was that people really disliked having to rely upon someone else immediately reacting to something in order for they themselves to actually do something. I played EQ2 for a long time and nearly everyone routinely ignored heroic opportunities. One person misses something and it all falls apart. One mis-click and the opportunity is ruined.
EQ2 had a very spam-clicky gameplay, very unlike EQ1 or Vanguard and so far that type of combat isn't what we're seeing in the streams. I would not expect to see that mechanic to appear in Pantheon, at least not at release.
I would prefer not to have ability chains like you're describing here. When I'm grouping with people, I'd like to be able to chat with them about something other than the abilities we're chaining together. With "heroic opportunities" in the game, I would feel pressured to explicitly coordinate every ability with the people I'm grouping with. I think that could very quickly crowd out the normal conversation that might otherwise take place. Just doesn't sound like that much fun to me.
Other "combo"-like abilities would be fine. Maybe an NPC that is stunned is unable to block/parry/dodge or is more vulnerable to critical strikes. Maybe a rooted mob is more vulnerable to backstabs. Stuff like that I'd be more okay with.
A superior mechanic that came out of those discussions on these forums (at least, I think it's superior) is the group leader can assign group effects, and when each class plays their role, it fills the requirements to fire the effect, allow the group leader to do so when appropriate. In practice, this means as long as you're using your abilities, any of your abilities, you contribute "properly" and no-one can do it wrong.
That way, players play their role, there is a group benefit, and the leader gets the most latitude in choice and timing.
Vandraad said:This discussion came up quite early on these forums and the general attitude was that people really disliked having to rely upon someone else immediately reacting to something in order for they themselves to actually do something. I played EQ2 for a long time and nearly everyone routinely ignored heroic opportunities. One person misses something and it all falls apart. One mis-click and the opportunity is ruined.
EQ2 had a very spam-clicky gameplay, very unlike EQ1 or Vanguard and so far that type of combat isn't what we're seeing in the streams. I would not expect to see that mechanic to appear in Pantheon, at least not at release.
This was my experience in EQ2 as well. They were great when you had a group that cared enough to try to do them right. Most of the time though, the trigger was a waste of hotbar space.
I'm not opposed to party-combos as a thing, but it needs to work differently than EQ2 did.
I'm not a fan of a mechanic like HO's in the game that everyone in a group has to know equally well in order to use it... because as sure as I'm sitting here typing this response, they won't - and that will lead to either frustration or an abandonment of the mechanic.
That's not to say that I'm opposed to interdependent activities within the context of a group that will make the group better - because I am, in fact, very much in favor of such. I think HO's were a great idea with what they were trying to achieve... but I think they failed utterly at achieving it.
Maybe the Heroic Opportunities could occur passively / automatically as needed. The trigger for the Heroic Opportunity could be as simple as having a full group. Or if your group has 6 different classes. Or if your group has 6 different races. Or if your group is all the same race. Or the trigger could be based on Perception. The better your Perception, the better chance your character will recognize the opportunity and act accordingly. Etc.
There are all sorts of ways to make Heroic Opportunities happen besides just having each person press buttons in sequence.
FFXI had a system called skillchains (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain) which usually required two physical damage dealers to perform a specific skill followed by another skill (totalling two skills) which created the chain.
The result of the chain was an additional free chunk of phsyical damage and reduced resistance to a single magical element (say fire) for a small duration. Any casters capable of timing their fire spells to land in this window received the benefit of the reduced resistance.
Combat (initially at least before it all got watered down) was balanced around the skill chain system so you could eek out enough EXP without them but the reward for organising the skill chain was enough to motivate literally every group to use them. In fact I can't remember a single group I was in when skill chains were effective in the game (probably 4 years total) that didn't at least try to get them working.
IMO this system was one of the greatest things FFXI did right. If Pantheon was to implement such a system it would be less demanding than Heroic Opportunities on the group but still provide some challenge in combat especially to the damage dealers which compared to other roles (in FFXI at least) had very little to actually do in EXP parties once they go into the swing of it.
This has nothing to do with heroic opportunities but since the OP talked about encouraging people to play together it isn't off topic either.
Giving each class a unique group buff will mean that each class adds value to a group that no other class can -helping to assure that no class will be viewed as something a group should take only if desperate for members or as a favor to a friend or guildmate.
It doesn't need to be a permanent buff either (meaning one that is always on as long as the group is active). Even a temporary buff that can be triggered for a boss will help.
Thus class A may have a damage mitigation buff, class B may have an armor buff, class C may have a dps buff, class D may have a buff to resistance, class E may have a debuff to mob resistance etc.
None of these has the disadvantages pointed out by several people above. I didn't hate heroic opportunities but I didn't love them either and don't really want a twitch-based mechanic that forces people to constantly be alert to something that has to be done very fast in a specified order. Maybe against a boss but not as a common thing - a normal group should be a bit more relaxed with more opportunity for socialization even while fighting.
vjek said:A superior mechanic that came out of those discussions on these forums (at least, I think it's superior) is the group leader can assign group effects, and when each class plays their role, it fills the requirements to fire the effect, allow the group leader to do so when appropriate. In practice, this means as long as you're using your abilities, any of your abilities, you contribute "properly" and no-one can do it wrong.
That way, players play their role, there is a group benefit, and the leader gets the most latitude in choice and timing.
Ilike this alot
There should not be any active skill chain what so ever , BUT passive works fine. Why do i think like this.... IN some of the FPS team games i play we have to use tactics to succed "You go right i go left Tom pick a sniper position and then Sam trows a screamer to trhe left of the house agree ?" in EQ2 end ghame become a parttime spamm fest with no funn at all like go to work watching cooldowns . I would like more interaction and passiv ones is good Ex "I will drag him here and turn him one of you do a attack in the back and we see if we get a tactic advantage " this is what i would like the encounter in some way. Please feel free to improve my line of thinking .
DuxDux said:FFXI had a system called skillchains (https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Skillchain) which usually required two physical damage dealers to perform a specific skill followed by another skill (totalling two skills) which created the chain.
The result of the chain was an additional free chunk of phsyical damage and reduced resistance to a single magical element (say fire) for a small duration. Any casters capable of timing their fire spells to land in this window received the benefit of the reduced resistance.
Combat (initially at least before it all got watered down) was balanced around the skill chain system so you could eek out enough EXP without them but the reward for organising the skill chain was enough to motivate literally every group to use them. In fact I can't remember a single group I was in when skill chains were effective in the game (probably 4 years total) that didn't at least try to get them working.
IMO this system was one of the greatest things FFXI did right. If Pantheon was to implement such a system it would be less demanding than Heroic Opportunities on the group but still provide some challenge in combat especially to the damage dealers which compared to other roles (in FFXI at least) had very little to actually do in EXP parties once they go into the swing of it.
Skill Chains and XP Chains were part of FFXI's answer to "boring, repetitive grinding" as it pertained to XP'ing. I have experience with heroic opportunities from EQ2 as well, and that feature was a sham. There was nothing fun or exciting about it ... it was more like "click the glowing ability whenever it pops up" and the incentives were completely random. There was no skill involved and the bonus for the HO was nearly worthless 99% of the time.
FFXI had the most engaging combat I have seen in any MMO, and the emphasis on "teamwork and coordination" was refreshing rather than just relying on everybody to "do their job." My understanding is that we will see some form of chaining in Pantheon, specifically with "signets of synergy" however they pan out. I am looking forward to testing it out ... the doldrums of monotonous grinding cannot be understated and mechanics like this can go a long way toward "making combat great again."
From the FAQ:
13.2 Will there be ability chaining?
We’re considering it. We don’t want to create a detailed combo system but we like the idea of synergetic abilities and the opportunity for players abilities to open up possible actions for others. We will reveal more in the future.
They talked about it at this point in the December stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_dAxTmBRyY&feature=youtu.be&t=2368
There are already some abilities in the game that hint at synergy:
Setting Sun Kick: "A powerful kick that deals physical damage to your target, with a chance to slow their spell casting speed (20%) for 6 seconds."
Rising Moon Kick: "A powerful kick that deals physical damage to your target. If used within 6 seconds of Setting Sun Kick, this ability has a 50% chance to critically hit."
Also see these threads: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6247/heroic-opportunities
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2875/party-chain-combos/view/page/1
EQ2 HOs became useless noise and did not add anything interesting to combat. I would rather abilities imbued with more properties when used in combination with others. The closest EQ1 came to this was how a mixture of classes could change the dynamic of the group. Having multiple support classes often blurred the lines in class roles and made for interesting options. But a haste was always a haste, a debuff always a debuff, fire spells were always fire spells etc. Things like buffs that can flip spell types (fire to ice etc), change mana colors, have opposite effects when used together, and a plethora of other possible outcomes not mentioned, could provide a reason for coordination and encourage atypical group compositions.
A thought that just entered my head (so I'll throw it out to receive accolades, scorn, indifference, or all of the above).
What if some of the abilities of one class could proc bonuses to the abilities of other classes? These would be (perhaps) different abilities than might synergize within the class itself (I fire this ability, and suddenly I see a proc of that ability that I have).
Crappy example of how it might work
Say Monks have an ability called "Pacifying Strike" - which does some damage and causes a short duration daze that the mob may or may not resist. Say a Cleric has an ability called "Seize the Moment" - which is an AoE heal that will do extra healing to anyone attacking a mob that is dazed, stunned, or blinded. Now say that the mob being in some way incapacitated (blinded, stunned, dazed) by another player in the group (as opposed to being incapacitated by one of that Cleric's abilities) has a chance to make the next cast of "Seize the Moment" free (proc).
I'm thinking that they synergies wouldn't be "this class needs that specific class to be in the group" - rather, as in the example, things that multiple classes can do might trigger a proc for you.
In my opinion effect exploitation, or status exploitation, or applying and removing statuses/effects, or synergies, or whatever other buzzword for "If I do this, you can do that, better" is separate from group effects performed by the leader when everyone is performing their role.
I hope there is both, but I would rather they be separate, myself.
Examples of synergy:
Examples of leadership bonus:
Even better if leadership abilities were the result of diplomacy, time spent as a group leader, or faction/quest activity. You could also limit leadership bonus abilities to once per x minutes, and/or once per encounter, if you want.
EDIT: God these forums suck for formatting. :(
I agree that I do not like having windows to hit X in or the group/raid has a huge dropoff in dps or something. I do not want to play a game staring at hotbars and popups constantly instead of looking at this world they are creating.
However, while I'm not fond of the heroic opportunity for attacks, I do think that if there was some interaction for buffs it could be a good thing to promote diversity in groups. For instance, having maintained buffs by certain different classes gives additional buffs of some type. For instance it could be somehow not a waste to have two shamans in the same group (if that is all that is available). Or that similar but different classes like shamans and druids. Their buffs don't necessarily stack, but they get a little better? Or having completely different class buffs might form to give a third trait. For instance if a shaman buffs dex and a chanter buffs intellect, the two combine to give a small agility buff. I dunno. I got a paper to write.
I would rather the only group combo's come from knowing your class abilties and how they interact in a group. No flashing icons or audibles or bonus abilities.
Just good ol fashioned co-ordination between party members and their abilities to maximize their efficiency on taking down a target.
The more complexity/bonus stuff you try to add into a game makes your more apt to focus on it than on being in the game world.
I for one want to focus on the visual world and react like I do in reality and not have to stare at my action bar for visual clues on bonus opportunies.
Let the good ol fashion RNG and your skill level and weapon/spell/ability bonuses determine such things in the background so you can stay immersed in the moment of combat.
Bazgrim said:From the FAQ:
13.2 Will there be ability chaining?
We’re considering it. We don’t want to create a detailed combo system but we like the idea of synergetic abilities and the opportunity for players abilities to open up possible actions for others. We will reveal more in the future.
They talked about it at this point in the December stream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_dAxTmBRyY&feature=youtu.be&t=2368
There are already some abilities in the game that hint at synergy:
Setting Sun Kick: "A powerful kick that deals physical damage to your target, with a chance to slow their spell casting speed (20%) for 6 seconds."
Rising Moon Kick: "A powerful kick that deals physical damage to your target. If used within 6 seconds of Setting Sun Kick, this ability has a 50% chance to critically hit."
Also see these threads: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6247/heroic-opportunities
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2875/party-chain-combos/view/page/1
As Bazgrim has kindly pointed out, we already have answered this int he FAQ and have multiple threads active that discuss this exact topic, so for that reason I will need to close this one down, please use the search function prior to creating a new thread to check and make sure something doesn't already exist.