Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Pass-through targeting - how much is too much?

    • 1785 posts
    November 17, 2017 12:32 PM PST

    I started to post about this in the "Little Things" thread, but as I thought more about it, I realized that pass-through targeting can be taken too far, and probably ought to be discussed on its own.

    Some (not all) MMOs give you the ability to see what your target is targeting themselves (a pass-through target), and potentially do things to that pass-through target.  So for example, you can see who the mob is hitting, and in some games, you can cast a heal on that person.  Or, you can see who your tank is hitting, and in some games this lets you auto-assist or cast things on that pass-through target without having to change your target.

    Note:  Some games also use a focus target system to achieve something similar.  Just putting that out there to acknowledge that there's more than one way to do some of these things.

     

    My question is - how much support for pass-through targeting makes sense?  At some point, it probably turns into a crutch.  But where's that line?

    Would love to hear what everyone thinks about it.

     

    Neph's opinion:

    - Pass-through targeting information makes sense as a visible thing in the HUD (Oh, Bob is attacking the Orc Shaman)

    - Ability use on pass-through targets makes sense if you wouldn't want the ability to affect the mob.  (The Orc Shaman is targeting Bob, so I can target the Orc Shaman to heal Bob)

    - Rather than automatic melee assist, some kind of button, click, or keypress that bases off of the pass-through target is what I would prefer.  Essentially just something that changes your target to whatever that pass-through target was.

    - I don't think pass-through targeting should work for harmful/detrimental spell effects.

    My reasoning on the last two points is that while it's convenient for sure, I think it becomes a crutch too easily, especially in raids.  It removes targeting as part of the player skill equation for a lot of aspects of combat.  Not to mention that in most games where I've seen it implemented, it results in wierd behavior in animations like character head tracking, where the character is looking at someone else while they're attacking the mob.  It's subtle, but jarring.

    I realize that pass-through targeting for beneficial spells could be considered the same way, and so this makes me feel like it's a balance between ease of targeting and realism/immersion/visual aesthetic.

    All that said... all of that is my opinion only, and I'd really like to hear other people's opinions on pass-through targeting :)

    • 1860 posts
    November 17, 2017 12:35 PM PST

    don't you just mean /assist?

    • 2130 posts
    November 17, 2017 12:43 PM PST

    What you're describing is defensive targeting as it was known in Vanguard.

    I'm pretty sure it has already been discussed here as a possible feature, leaning towards a definite feature considering that there are unit frames for it in Pantheon's UI already on livestreams.

    I wouldn't consider it a crutch. Having to manually target everyone and everything is really annoying, and if Pantheon is going to have combat that is interesting at all, it's going to be necessary for players to have that information. Healing should be very reactive as it was in EQ2/Vanguard, imo.

    The only reason it worked in EQ is because EQ is a very simple, slow paced game. If combat is so slow paced in Pantheon that you have time to ask for spot heals I'll be pretty annoyed.


    This post was edited by Liav at November 17, 2017 1:08 PM PST
    • 633 posts
    November 17, 2017 1:03 PM PST

    Vanguard's defensive target wasn't quite a target of target.  Defensive target was just a friendly character (player or NPC) that you targetted, allowing you to cast on them without losing your offensive target.  Whenever you selected a target (using hotkeys, mouse or just because you got hit) the game decided which was which and your target either became the offensive or defensive target.  You also had both targetted at the same time.  Certain spells only effected your friendly target, and certain spells only effected your offensive target.  Other spells effected both, but usually in different ways (such as a blood mage lifetapping the offensive target to heal a defensive target).

    Something like /assist would be good to set your defensive target, but that should be all you really need.  I believe in the streams they have mentioned that there will be both offensive and defensive targets, but I have yet to see the UI support it in the streams (unless I missed it).

    • 1303 posts
    November 17, 2017 1:20 PM PST

    Liav said:

    What you're describing is defensive targeting as it was known in Vanguard.

    I'm pretty sure it has already been discussed here as a possible feature, leaning towards a definite feature considering that there are unit frames for it in Pantheon's UI already on livestreams.

    I wouldn't consider it a crutch. Having to manually target everyone and everything is really annoying, and if Pantheon is going to have combat that is interesting at all, it's going to be necessary for players to have that information. Healing should be very reactive as it was in EQ2/Vanguard, imo.

    The only reason it worked in EQ is because EQ is a very simple, slow paced game. If combat is so slow paced in Pantheon that you have time to ask for spot heals I'll be pretty annoyed.

    F1 = target first member of group. 
    F2 = target second member of group. 
    etc.etc.etc. 

    I don't think it's beyond the pale for a player to use such a simple, quick, efficient targeting system to heal the person in the group that needs it. Passthru healing where all you have to do is target the mob and you auto heal whoever the mob is hitting is a bit of a gimme, imo, removing a layer of thought and active engagement from that healer. 

    And yeah, the defensive target thing as it existed in Vangaurd and appears to exist in Pantheon really isn't a passthru mechanic. You have to actively choose your defensive target. It remains locked there even if you change your offensive target, and the game just routes offensive/defensive actions to the appropriate locked target. Locking on the right targets in each category is still a factor. 

    • 2130 posts
    November 17, 2017 1:32 PM PST

    There's 3 different implementations of this to be exact, at least that I've seen.

    1) EQ: Target of target displayed, can not cast spells on target of target regardless of if it's friendly or hostile.

    2) EQ2: Target of target displayed, can cast spells on target of target regardless of if it's friendly or hostile.

    3) Vanguard: Hostile and friendly targets chosen independently, can cast on both at the same time depending on the spell type.

    EQ is actually my least favorite of these because EQ's UI is disgustingly clunky in modern times. I would rather be able to see raid frames with the entire raid's HP and be able to cast on anyone in the raid by targeting them through the raid frames.

    I would prefer to have EQ2's or Vanguard's targeting system over anything else because it is the most intuitive. If combat is as involved as I hope it is, a system like this will allow you to seamlessly attack and heal at the same time. Vanguard healing classes had a very active playstyle that I would like to see make a comeback.

    Clunky UIs are the bane of my existence.


    This post was edited by Liav at November 17, 2017 1:32 PM PST
    • 49 posts
    November 17, 2017 1:32 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    F1 = target first member of group. 
    F2 = target second member of group. 
    etc.etc.etc. 

    I don't think it's beyond the pale for a player to use such a simple, quick, efficient targeting system to heal the person in the group that needs it. Passthru healing where all you have to do is target the mob and you auto heal whoever the mob is hitting is a bit of a gimme, imo, removing a layer of thought and active engagement from that healer. 

    And yeah, the defensive target thing as it existed in Vangaurd and appears to exist in Pantheon really isn't a passthru mechanic. You have to actively choose your defensive target. It remains locked there even if you change your offensive target, and the game just routes offensive/defensive actions to the appropriate locked target. Locking on the right targets in each category is still a factor. 

     

    I like the defensive targeting, but I also don't see anything wrong with having pass-through targeting. I don't think it necessarily removes a layer of thought and active engagement so much as it removes an unnecessary barrier that convolutes a targeting system. You still have to manage your skills and what you're applying and to whom. The addition of those will still require more thought and engagement than DPS, which is what the bulk of the population will be. Putting unnecessary strain in the targeting mechanic on the healer for the sake of "skill and thought" doesn't really add up in contrast to what's expected of a DPS player.


    This post was edited by Nevron at November 17, 2017 1:43 PM PST
    • 1303 posts
    November 17, 2017 3:10 PM PST

    What skill and/or strain is involved in "press F1"? 

     

    • 16 posts
    November 17, 2017 3:34 PM PST

    In a full raid with multiple mobs stacked in place by the tank or off tanks, as well was particle effects I think pass through targeting is not out of place. You shouldn’t have to turn graphics down to Nintendo DS levels to be able to raid. There are tons of raid encounter mechanics that can make encounters challenging without making players stuggle to click one particular mob in a stack of 6.


    This post was edited by Cadenbrie at November 17, 2017 3:55 PM PST
    • 57 posts
    November 17, 2017 3:39 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    What skill and/or strain is involved in "press F1"? 

     

    Only thing I hate about F1, F2 etc. as a healer is that you never know which person in the group will be that person. You then need to try to commit to memory that this group F2 is tank, but maybe he leaves and now the tank is F4, but wait the dps pulled aggro which F# was he, 6 no 3 crap dead because you where to slow on burst. Being able to target the NPC and allowed to cast offensive or defensive spells was a nice feature just can't remember the game. I know when I am in EverQuest (solo or in group), I constantly swear I changed targets only to cast a heal on the attacking mob instead of myself or the group member taking the attack and wasted all that mana. We definately do not need add-on programs like DBM or Healbot in the game.

    • 49 posts
    November 17, 2017 3:52 PM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    What skill and/or strain is involved in "press F1"? 

     

    You kinda defeated your own argument there. If there's no skill in pressing F1, (which thought and engagement tie in to), then that makes your argument against pass-through targeting meritless.

    And I don't mean strain as being that much more involved than pass-through targeting, but that it makes the targeting system a little more limiting for the sake of, in your words, requiring more thought and active engagement - which you've already alluded to in the quote as being mindless/skilless to begin with.

    So I guess the question is, does pressing F1 require enough thought and active engagement to forego a pass-through targeting system in addition to defensive targeting? Or was that just a placeholder argument against it?


    This post was edited by Nevron at November 17, 2017 3:56 PM PST
    • 1785 posts
    November 17, 2017 4:38 PM PST

    Zohkar said:

    Feyshtey said:

    What skill and/or strain is involved in "press F1"? 

     

    Only thing I hate about F1, F2 etc. as a healer is that you never know which person in the group will be that person. You then need to try to commit to memory that this group F2 is tank, but maybe he leaves and now the tank is F4, but wait the dps pulled aggro which F# was he, 6 no 3 crap dead because you where to slow on burst. Being able to target the NPC and allowed to cast offensive or defensive spells was a nice feature just can't remember the game. I know when I am in EverQuest (solo or in group), I constantly swear I changed targets only to cast a heal on the attacking mob instead of myself or the group member taking the attack and wasted all that mana. We definately do not need add-on programs like DBM or Healbot in the game.

    That's pretty easy to fix - FFXIV sets it up to where the F keys correspond to the ordering of your party list, and the default ordering is always YOU=F1, Tank=F2, everyone else = F3+  Even in content with two tanks in the party, they'll be sorted in the list before everyone but yourself.

    I feel like most MMOs picked up on what EQ did which was F1= Target self, F2-F6 = target group, F7 = target nearest PC, F8 = target nearest NPC.  I'm not sure if this was an intentional convention or merely just a wierd coincidence but it's been that way in most games I've played.

    • 334 posts
    November 17, 2017 5:09 PM PST

    It is also related to line of sight.
    If you play and view your character from the 3rd person perspective, would you then be allowed to see the sneaky halfling highwayman behind the next tree, where the first person player does not?

    • 2419 posts
    November 17, 2017 5:46 PM PST

    I really liked the visual cues telling me who was targeting who as it allowed me to be that much better as a Shaman.  Knowing who my tank had targeted meant I was certain what mob needed debuffs and what mob I could safely land a DoT or two.  Knowing who the mob had targeted let me get of spot heals quickly.  As for easy targeting beyond that, I see no need to reinvent the wheel as the F1-Fx worked just fine.

    The raid window, though, showing everyone's health and manabars is a definite must as it lessens the need to have healers in every group yet still giving the healers the ability to keep the raid alive.

    • 1921 posts
    November 17, 2017 6:57 PM PST

    philo said:

    don't you just mean /assist?

    It's also worth noting that you can /assist mobs and get their current player target (to heal or rune, for example), in EQ1, despite the lack of a defensive target mechanic like Vanguard had.

    • 763 posts
    November 18, 2017 3:22 AM PST

    To allow full functionality, without loss of 'required' interaction (i.e. no crutch) you would merely need:

    1. OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE target.

    Target ally and it switches Defensive target to this person.
    Target enemy and it switches Offensive target to this mob.

    2. /ASSIST switches offensive target to selected Defensive target's target.

    Note: this doesn't move the Defensive target.

    3. Group Quick keys:

            F1-F6 for group players
    shift-F1-F6 for group players' pet
    (NB pet target may merely require hitting the F1-F6 key again to toggled between player <-> pet)

      F7 = nearest defensive target
      F8 = nearest offensive target

    4. Designated Target Quick-Keys

      F9 = target selected character (fixed using, say, alt-F9).
    F10 = target selected character (fixed using, say, alt-F10) etc

    (NB: Use F9-F10 for 'designated' roles, eg MT, Puller etc)
    (NB: Could extend to F11-F12 to give 4 'designated' target options)

    5. Ability to drag/rearrange group players' slot (or able to 'lock' player into a specific slot).

    Gives players a way to always keep their tank in F2, Healer in F6 or whatever is easiest. It means where groups lose players and replace them, you have a way of ensuring continuity without having to reorganise you brain, or even your macro buttons.

    6. Raid matrix needs allow targetting.

    It needs to be visible, with (preferably) each group in its own pane, dragable about the UI (hopefully) and where you can click within the Raid-UI group-panels to target a person (or to target in order to lock that person in for one of your 'designated' keys (F9-12) say). This way, the whole raid would be able to set themselves role-specific targets for F9-F12. Healers may have them for MT, off-tanks and main-CC. Nukers would only have MT and off-tanks. CC'ers would have Puller, Main-Healer and Main-Assist etc.

    While some mileage could be made to use "target's target", I am not convinced it is needed - though I did like the idea of 'Group' specific AA's (Call them 'Leadership' AA's) which allow you to be able to 'level up' your Leadership exp so as to aid grouping (and later Raid grouping) ... giving useful skills for managing Group Leaders, Raid Sub-Leaders (2-Group), Raid Leaders (4-Groups) and Raid Commander (8-Groups). Now, that might include seeing Traget's target, some ideas of 'relative' aggro between tanks, Hp/mana for characters not in your own group and various Looting tools.

    But now I am heading off down another path altogether!

    Evoras, is easily sidetracked...

    • 753 posts
    November 18, 2017 5:34 AM PST

    For me, I think I would prefer...

    Offensive Target

    - I would like to be able to target a mob

    - I would like target of target to show me who the mob is focused on

     

    Extended offensive target list

    - I would like to see a list of all agro'd mobs

    - I don't need to see who they are targeting

     

    Defensive Target

    - I would like to be able to target a player

    - I would like target of target to show me who that player is focused on

     

    Raid Frames

    - I should see everyone in the raid

    - I don't need to see who everyone in the raid is targeting

    - I should be able to move my raid frames wherever I want

    - I should be able to to sort my raid frames by group, show groups horizontally or vertically, etc..

    - I should be able to highlight tanks to make them easy to find in the frames

    - I should be able to convert my group frame to raid frames (group frames vanish)

     

    Selecting who to cast on

    - If I cast a beneficial spell, it should land on my defensive target by default

    - If I cast a detrimental spell, it should land on my offensive target by default, and passthrough to my defensive target's target if I don't have an offensive target selected

    - Hitting the F1 through Fx keys should select the appropriate group member

    - I should be able to hover cast on raid frames (hover casting overrides defensive target)

    - I do not think detrimental spells should passthrough raid frames (because I cannot see who that person has targeted)

    - I do not think beneficial spells should passthrough offensive targets to that target's target

    • 160 posts
    November 18, 2017 5:58 AM PST

    Not really sure why this is a big issue.

    I had no problem with EQ1.

    /assist (gets target for heal)

    /cast

    /assist (puts you back on attack target)

    This can be done in half a second...

    Am I missing something?

    • 264 posts
    November 18, 2017 9:36 AM PST

    Liav said:

    There's 3 different implementations of this to be exact, at least that I've seen.

    1) EQ: Target of target displayed, can not cast spells on target of target regardless of if it's friendly or hostile.

    2) EQ2: Target of target displayed, can cast spells on target of target regardless of if it's friendly or hostile.

    3) Vanguard: Hostile and friendly targets chosen independently, can cast on both at the same time depending on the spell type.

    EQ is actually my least favorite of these because EQ's UI is disgustingly clunky in modern times. I would rather be able to see raid frames with the entire raid's HP and be able to cast on anyone in the raid by targeting them through the raid frames.

    I would prefer to have EQ2's or Vanguard's targeting system over anything else because it is the most intuitive. If combat is as involved as I hope it is, a system like this will allow you to seamlessly attack and heal at the same time. Vanguard healing classes had a very active playstyle that I would like to see make a comeback.

    Clunky UIs are the bane of my existence.

     

     I completely agree with Liav on this, very well stated! Targeting is one of the major elements of MMORPG combat, the smoother it is the better. I really liked how Vanguard did targeting.

    • 278 posts
    November 18, 2017 9:44 AM PST

    Ziegfried said:

    Liav said:

    There's 3 different implementations of this to be exact, at least that I've seen.

    1) EQ: Target of target displayed, can not cast spells on target of target regardless of if it's friendly or hostile.

    2) EQ2: Target of target displayed, can cast spells on target of target regardless of if it's friendly or hostile.

    3) Vanguard: Hostile and friendly targets chosen independently, can cast on both at the same time depending on the spell type.

    EQ is actually my least favorite of these because EQ's UI is disgustingly clunky in modern times. I would rather be able to see raid frames with the entire raid's HP and be able to cast on anyone in the raid by targeting them through the raid frames.

    I would prefer to have EQ2's or Vanguard's targeting system over anything else because it is the most intuitive. If combat is as involved as I hope it is, a system like this will allow you to seamlessly attack and heal at the same time. Vanguard healing classes had a very active playstyle that I would like to see make a comeback.

    Clunky UIs are the bane of my existence.

     

     

     I completely agree with Liav on this, very well stated! Targeting is one of the major elements of MMORPG combat, the smoother it is the better. I really liked how Vanguard did targeting.

    I would even state that this is a MUST for healer/buff classes for them to have funn they should not have to spend 80% of the fighting time switch targets and miss all of the interaction because they keep staring att bars and icon's.


    This post was edited by Grizzly at November 18, 2017 9:45 AM PST