Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

The Little Things

    • 1785 posts
    November 5, 2017 9:54 PM PST

    We spend a lot of time on this forum talking about Big Important Systems and Mechanics - the sort of stuff that we all obsess and write multipage posts about (or even, proposed design documents).  All that stuff is great, but... an MMORPG is more than just a bunch of big systems and mechanics all glommed together.  There's a lot of little details - things that might be a small task for an artist or developer to do, but that all add up to give us the immersion, accessibility, and overall quality of life that we want in the game.

    So, I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread about the little things.  Stuff that we can list out with just a simple sentence or two - the things that help make the game world better for everyone, even if 99% of the time we don't really think about them.  I'm going to list a few below but I really hope that everyone else will post a few, too.

    Here's Neph's starting list of little things.  This is by no means all of them, and in no particular order, but I hope it gets people thinking.

    - Places should have names.  That little farm by the road belongs to some family, right?  Whether it's on a sign or on the map, we should be able to find out its name.

    - NPC life should include NPCs going about their business - walking from place to place, having conversations, working.  They shouldn't all be standing around waiting for some nosey adventurer to come /hail them.

    - NPC children.  It's supposed to be a living, breathing world.  In cities and towns we should see the occasional child.

    - Interactive furniture.  Chairs and benches you can sit on, tables you can eat at, beds you can lay down on and take a nap.

    - Animated social actions.  Being able to /wave and watch your character actually wave at someone.

    - Character poses, either in conjunction with the environment or controllable in some way.  If I've got my back to a wall (casually) in real life, I'm probably leaning against it.  Why should I stand there looking "battle ready" in the same situation in game?  This includes being able to sit or lie down and have it look natural.

    - Descriptions on items.  If I find something of note, when I look at it in my inventory or in the world, there should be some descriptive text.  Some little snippet of lore.  Instead of "an old, but serviceable sword", it should say "This blade once belonged to Sir Veuragand, a knight of reknown, who alas lost his lands and title after incurring huge gambling debts."  I'm being silly, but I hope you get the point.

    - A clock somewhere in the game's UI that can be toggled to show "game time" or "real time".  Because sometimes we really DO need to try to get to bed at a decent hour :)

    - Weather gradients somewhere in between "super clear" and "terrible storms".  In so many games, every time it rains it's like a monsoon.  In the good ones, there's different degrees of rain, snow, wind, and so on.

    - Footstep sounds that are different on different surfaces.  That includes things like snow, sand, and so on.  I never realized how big a difference this makes in games until I recently got a new PC and could hear the footstep sounds in some other games more clearly.  WOW.

     

    ... like I said, this is just a list to start the thread off.  I really hope others will add more to it.  I'll probably add more to my list periodically if others don't beat me to things that I think of.  If nothing else I hope it gives us all something new to think about while we wait for testing to begin :)

    • 690 posts
    November 5, 2017 11:18 PM PST

    Cool post, probably been covered somewhere else though haha=)

    I always find it un-immersive if a city/village is surrounded by a hundred guards but inside there are no children to justify the extremely high recruit rate, and not nearly enough npcs to justify all those mouths to feed. 

     

    • 9 posts
    November 6, 2017 2:48 AM PST

    Great ideas Nephele , to expand some of them

    NPC's that you have done some favors and you get up your reputation/ranking should remember you when you see him/her/it again , also maybe seeking out a player that have done some quests for that perticular NPC ( i mean since the player helped out a coupple times successfully why not ask that player again)  that would make the NPC feel more "alive" that just some random humanoid shaped set of pixles.

    All quests/missions dont have to be about killing mobs , as an example maybe some farmer needs a good set of hides be transported to the next rown and since its to dangerous it asks a player with some help to do that. Some times the silly small quests are the most fun , why not gather the damn cows that escaped again =).

    Let the NPC interact with each other for instance if there are orc's raiding village A  the villagers in B and C might hear about this and starts to take precautions  like building protective walls and sealing off the roads with wagons or what ever.

    Hopefully will villages have their own feel to them , i guess its hard to make loads of villages and then make them uniqe in looks and feeling but it would be nice to have some differance in layouts and apperances , in one village people are friendly and open the next distrusting and standoffish that would make the world more alive to imo.

     


    This post was edited by Nibelung at November 6, 2017 2:48 AM PST
    • 2130 posts
    November 6, 2017 4:55 AM PST

    I want to see the ability to toggle wield style. Vanguard had it, but I bet Pantheon can do it better. Allows you to change how you hold your weapons, purely cosmetic. You could hold your weapons in your hands like EQ, or sheathe them on your sides.

    Oh, one more thing, bows/quivers visible on our backs (although this might already be a thing, I just can't remember seeing it in streams).


    This post was edited by Liav at November 6, 2017 4:55 AM PST
    • 207 posts
    November 6, 2017 6:16 AM PST
    For me, everything is about enviornment. If I'm crossing large grassy plains, I'd love to see something like a heard of animals grazing on grass, or maybe I'm wondering through a thicket and come across a territorial animal. I Would love to see predators not only stalk me and my party as prey, but also stalking other animals as prey. Not sure of any of that is even possible lol
    • 338 posts
    November 6, 2017 6:38 AM PST

    Trees that fall over when you chop them.

     

    Ore that gets mined out of an area and then you have to move on to prospect a new location instead of just respawning nodes on the surface.

     

    Sheathing weapons would be real nice.

     

    Gambling, Smoking, Drinking and an over all mature attitude about the game instead of all the fluffy cartoon mmo that are already available.

     

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~

    • 334 posts
    November 6, 2017 6:40 AM PST

    Good topic, small things. But yes, a lot of small things are posted in between big threads (poor Devs).

    snow slowly off boots so they leave tracks on, say, rocks for a while before fading
    slippery city cobble stone roads after a rain
    keys for doors (did I see that mention anywhere? it obvious) but for own housing
    chests with riddle locks
    spyglass (instead of spells)
    leafs in streams
    tall grass in places
    carts for moving heavy objects
    wetstone (yes, some ppl complained about weapon armor repair, but atleast something, lol)customizable on screen button bars
    herbal packs, picklocks, torches, rope, shovels, weapon modifiers (poison, nafta, blessing, curses), rallying horn, raw mana, handfull of sand, chickens/eggs, dogs/cats, raven/hawks, vapor masks, Seals for access\papers\doors, (animal) traps, place to do performances for players, books\notes, vibrating blue squirrels, songs\birds\leaf rustles, ale houses\laughter, graveyards, temples
    etc.

    • 3852 posts
    November 6, 2017 7:18 AM PST

    >NPC life should include NPCs going about their business - walking from place to place, having conversations, working.  They shouldn't all be standing around waiting for some nosey adventurer to come /hail them.<

    Agreed, but not to the point where it makes things TOO inconvenient for the players. Our subscription money pays the NPC bills after all.

    Walking around a village where it takes an extra minute or two to find them to get or cash-in a quest, or buy or sell something, is fine. Having to enter every house in a city in case the NPC you need is inside - not so fine. Having to chase them around an entire zone (and wait for them to respawn if a wolf ate them) also not so fine. Having a day/night cycle where you need to wait three hours real time for the NPC to finish sleeping and come out to her stand at 9AM game time - very very very not fine.


    This post was edited by dorotea at November 6, 2017 7:18 AM PST
    • 753 posts
    November 6, 2017 7:24 AM PST

    I would love to see things like city areas that may change from day to night.  For example, maybe the seedier folks come out at night, and the town guards have less of a presence... which might make that town more dangerous for some during the day but safer at night, and visa versa (based upon your faction with the guards and your faction with the seedier NPCs).

    Knowing that banks, etc... need to be available 24/7 in the real world, but also knowing that the game world will have some concept of night and day... it would be fun to see shift changes happen so that the banker/merchant you go to isn't there 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.

    • 999 posts
    November 6, 2017 7:44 AM PST

    Good post Neph, and I'd agree, it's the total sum of the "little things" that makes the MMORPG feel less like a game and more like a virtual world.  I hope the attention to detail can be seen throughout Pantheon.

    • 753 posts
    November 6, 2017 7:58 AM PST

    Liav said:

    I want to see the ability to toggle wield style. Vanguard had it, but I bet Pantheon can do it better. Allows you to change how you hold your weapons, purely cosmetic. You could hold your weapons in your hands like EQ, or sheathe them on your sides.

    Oh, one more thing, bows/quivers visible on our backs (although this might already be a thing, I just can't remember seeing it in streams).

    One thing on this one... sometimes, in some games, if weapons are sheathed on the avatar's back (like a big sworrd or whatever), it appears to be floating in air and not attached to the avatar if you look closely from the side.  A little thing would be to make sure that the sword /bow/whatever worn on the back of the avatar is actually ON the avatar.

    • 2130 posts
    November 6, 2017 8:04 AM PST

    Wandidar said:

    One thing on this one... sometimes, in some games, if weapons are sheathed on the avatar's back (like a big sworrd or whatever), it appears to be floating in air and not attached to the avatar if you look closely from the side.  A little thing would be to make sure that the sword /bow/whatever worn on the back of the avatar is actually ON the avatar.

    That's a tall order. The same thing happens when weapons are sheathed on your side, too.

    Clipping is pretty much impossible to avoid, but weapons are generally distanced from the character to mitigate it. The only option is to go full EQ and hold weapons in your hands 24/7, and not display anything on the back. Cloaks are also a concern, how do you simultaneously display a bow/quiver and a cloak? You just don't.

    • 1785 posts
    November 6, 2017 8:54 AM PST

    Adding one for the morning.  Just one, so I don't make myself late for work :)

    - The ability to toggle on/off hoods/helmets.  Sometimes I want to see my character's fancy hat.  Other times, I want to see that hairstyle I spent all that time choosing :)

    • 2130 posts
    November 6, 2017 9:05 AM PST

    Nephele said:

    Adding one for the morning.  Just one, so I don't make myself late for work :)

    - The ability to toggle on/off hoods/helmets.  Sometimes I want to see my character's fancy hat.  Other times, I want to see that hairstyle I spent all that time choosing :)

    My immersion! Noooooooooooooo!

    • 3852 posts
    November 6, 2017 9:29 AM PST

    I agree with Nephele wholeheartedly. I spend a LOT of effort getting the hair JUST right and I don't want a hat or hooded cloak to bock that view unless I really like the looks of the cloak or hat.

    • 207 posts
    November 6, 2017 9:39 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    Walking around a village where it takes an extra minute or two to find them to get or cash-in a quest, or buy or sell something, is fine. Having to enter every house in a city in case the NPC you need is inside - not so fine. Having to chase them around an entire zone (and wait for them to respawn if a wolf ate them) also not so fine. Having a day/night cycle where you need to wait three hours real time for the NPC to finish sleeping and come out to her stand at 9AM game time - very very very not fine.

    The bolded part, I think that actually adds to the feeling of being in a real town. 3 real life hours is ridiculous, but if a day night cycle is only an hour real life, I dont mind if npcs closed shop for the night cycle, say half an hour real time) and opened up the next day at a certain in game time. 

    One thing I'd like to see named days of the week where some shops were closed on certain days. Whatever the weekday schedule is.

    Also how about specific holidays and celebrations in the world? I know many mmos have holiday type events that correlate to our holiday seasons, but I want to see holidays and celebrations specific to this world!

    • 643 posts
    November 6, 2017 10:17 AM PST

    Unexplained things.  

    I think this is the most overlooked and vitally important "filler".

    Like in the real world, we don't *HAVE* to know why things are this way....they just *ARE*.  Sometimes we can learn the backstory, other times we cannot.

    Like finding an old ruined foundation in a forest.   That doesn't necessarily mean it's a zoneline or a quest location or a particular hunting spot or anything.  It doesn't automatically have to "mean something" like we have to figure out what the quest is around this place.  No....it's just there.  It simply adds mystique and charcter and there was no warning, no hint, not explanation and no solution ever found.  It just is.

    MMORPG's, somehow, have gotten to the point where they are so strapped for developer resources that everything that is put into the game has to mean something or do something or be part of a quest or something.

    These unresolved "fillers" add flavor all over and are the tiny subconscious things that make a world seem more real.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by fazool at November 6, 2017 2:10 PM PST
    • 40 posts
    November 6, 2017 10:19 AM PST

    Non attackable ambient life. Little creepy crawlies . Flys, spiders, woodlouse etc. Small forest mammals mice, squirrels. Just little things helping to make  the areas feel alive 

    • 454 posts
    November 6, 2017 10:56 AM PST

    I really like this thread.  I’m hoping for herds of gazelles on the plains, frogs by rivers, great sunsets, shift workers at establishments, moonlight, drizzly rain, fog from my breath, when it’s cold.  Putting my two handed staff on my back in town.

    • 98 posts
    November 6, 2017 11:04 AM PST

    Music! Bards should be able to play for real!! But there'd have to be a special plug-in or something built into the game so musicians can plug in their instruments to play. And there should be random bar pianos anyone can play. :D

    Books in the libraries that I can pull out and read.

    More NPCs randomly interacting with each other, like...mortal enemies always fighting when they encounter each other. Makes things feel way more alive and the zone is more dynamic and natural. If I see a big cat predator roaming peacefully next to a baby deer I'm gonna call shenanigans!!

    NPCs NOT nicely grouped by type...put them where they'd naturally want to be! Let them roam free! I understand crabs naturally sticking to beach areas in large numbers, but let the tigers be lonely wanderers who claim the whole zone as their territory.

    A wide variety of art styles and periods. I loved exploring EQ just because I'd find all sorts of things, from ancient celtic style murals (in a place like Halas) to pre-Columbian Mesoamerican art (Kerran architecture in some spots) to dinosaur fossils (Blackburrow). Slum areas with graffiti all over the place from delinquents give some life to a town.

    Let the day birds go to sleep and the night birds come out when the moon is high in the sky, and let us hear them!

    • 1281 posts
    November 6, 2017 1:32 PM PST

    I have high hopes that the world will be "alive" due to Brad saying in multiple interviews that he is looking to build a world, not a game....hehehe

    With that being said, I want to see all of the above and more....heheheeh

    • 769 posts
    November 6, 2017 2:58 PM PST

    Awesome thread. 

    As someone already mentioned, I want to be able to interact with furniture and the world. Let me sit in chairs, lean against walls, lay down in beds. I want to sit on the barstool at ye olde tavern, sit and lean against a tree in an overland zone - hell, I even want to climb those trees! I think this is something sorely missing from games, being able to interact with the environment around you, and not just in a destructive way. There's all this focus on "voxels" and being able to blast holes in the cliffside, but not enough focus on acting like a real person in a real world. 

    Nighttime cycles and the inherent dangers shouldn't only be unique to zones outside the gates. Make seedy sections of the city where you run the risk of a thug, or even a corrupt guard trying to shake you down in the dead of night. I want to walk down the city streets and have to make a decision to either take a shortcut through the potentially dangerous dark alleyways, or take the longer and safer route through the more populated and lit areas of the town. 

    Wildlife. I think EQ2 did a marginally decent job at this, for its time. Commonlands had wildlife gather around the watering hole, and in the forests near Butcherblock you might run into a deer. I want all the wildlife!

    Wind. One great thing about Vanguard that I recall is panning the camera up in Thestra and just watching the trees sway back and forth from the wind. Give me days with strong winds, little wind, or no wind. Mix up the weather a bit - not everything has to be in the extreme. 

    Vendors that matter. I can't remember any MMO after playing EQ where I would actually go to a vendor in the city and buy armor, even if that armor is cloth at lvl 3. Or rations. Or bandages. 

    Bandages. Speaking of - bring bind wound back. 

    • 1399 posts
    November 6, 2017 10:07 PM PST

    A "sign" that a traveling player has just passed through., giving real "life" to the world besides just NPC's.

    In EQ I remember finding small bags on the ground. Items other players had discarded, could be just bag cleaning while running through George of King Orb, and dropping an old "chunk of cloth" and a lone unwated bat wing, or it could be coin, a big stack of copper where the player found himself slightly encumbered while making that long run, or maybe some vegetables dropped by a Ranger or Druid Foraging.... it all made you relize it wasn't just a game but a MMO, and there were others here.

    I propose embellishing on this and have the game automatically spawn something, some sign that the player was there based on the characters Class and or Race..

    So after say 200sec of running,

    All players could drop(randomly spawn behind them)

    footprints, broken twigs,  torn piece of cloth, "soiled handful of leaves (emitting a putrid odor)"... ok, maybe not the leaves. A RARE drop of a gem

     

    Summoner = Small stack of summoned food water or bandage and the occasional summoned weight reduction pack.

    Wizard/Druid = A rare drop of a portal fragment that can port the bearer to their bind point. Runes, 

    Warrior = Sharpening stone 

    Halfling = Sap Resin covered rock

    Halfling Warrior = Sap Resin covered Sharpening Stone

    Not often so as to clutter things up (don't want them all over the place), lets say it triggers a counter once you zone in, and if you run nonstop for 60-120 sec, then anything from a "broken twig" or something else drops on the ground behind you while your moving.

     

    • 668 posts
    November 6, 2017 10:23 PM PST

    Little but important thing...

    I want to see a smart chat system where you can click on names and send whispers or other commands from the chat windows. An advanced system can really improve the social aspect.

    • 77 posts
    November 7, 2017 2:10 AM PST

    I would like to see every archer npc have the ability "Arrow to the knee."

    A fleshed out achievement system, guild system, and guild achievement system.  I not only want to know how many kitties I've kicked, but how many the guild has as well.

    Enemy npcs, especially bosses should have voice acting, preferably British and Russian accents.