Forums » Pantheon Classes

Class Stat Allocation

    • 38 posts
    October 31, 2017 11:08 AM PDT

    So stat allication in the past has been molded around Max/Min perspective, EX: if you are playing a shaman you allocate as many stat points into Wisdom(to strengthen heals),Char(for larger mana pool), and Int(for your DoT and damage spells). Anything outside of those are seen as not optimal. Why would a shammy need to consitrate on Str if he's not doing melee damage? Why spend points on Dex if its less nescissary than your base healing healing level or mana pool. Why consitrate on Agi if your on the back lines?

    What if the stats affected differnet character roles diffrently? What if Str made your Debuffs stronger? What if Agi made your defensive buffs stronger? what if Dex increased your offensive buffs? would you be more willing to assign your stat points diffrently?

    No longer would cookie cutter Max/Min builds be as viable because each player playing a shammy would find value in diffrent aspects of there role.
    If you have 5 Shammy's all lined up in a row each and everyone would be a diffrent design depending on what they find as "group value". It wouldn't take away from there primary role as a healer but allows them to subclass there charaters to the needs they see fit. Of course your basic stat values EX. if a shammy went Agi it would still increase his Def mitigation but ontop would increase def buffs, Str would still increase atk damage but ontop make Debuffs stronger. It allows the player to create out of the box build, more viable off healing combinations without distrupting the core values of the game and class roles. And think about the raid qualities! you can now take 5 shammies and there contribution affects a much larger array of game play, allows diffrent aspects of stratagy with whats available to choose from.

    VR has confirmed with a question of my choosing during the VIP questionair, "Will Stat Points be assignable or will all stats be gear dependent?" There answer was refreshing "Yes, pos. every 5 to 10 levels but haven't descided." This means 2 things, 1st the game will not be gear dependent lowering the need for cookie cutter race/class combo's(after all if you gotto choose between an Ogre and a Halfling, it's safe to say to be affective a large majority would pick Ogre). But being able to allocate your own points give diversity to a characters play style(PS. I'm the 1% that chose Halfling). An Ogre may make a better Guardian type Warrior with increased Sta/Str (clumbsy Ogre's know nothing of Agi), on the flip side Halflings may make a better Zerker type Warrior With increased Agi/Dex. Both viable Tanks used in a diffrent matter. Strength means something diffrent to everyone, Mental strength, physical strength, moral strength, ect. Strength to a shaman might not mean the same as strength for a warrior.

    NOW lets bring the new thought process in Str (Still increases melee dmg), Sta(Increase health pool), Agi(Def Mitigation), Dex(Crit hit rate), Int(Warriors dont cast so pos. increase taunt power since your using your intelligence to aggrivate the mob), Wis(Increase Self buffs), Char(increase mana pool/duration over time affects "shouts"). With these new pos. warriors are still tanks first a formost, but now they can be Main tank, and affective off tanks(why would a warrior be an off tank otherwise). Could you imagine the best Ogre warrior tank build being Sta/Agi/Int/Wis? A sturdy tank that hold aggro great b/c his taunts are made stronger by allocating Int and Wis for better self buffs? Never hear of such blasphomy! It sounds like a fun build once you think about it and fits with the lore well also since Ogre arn't dumb only thinking about war, they are a calmer deeper race than seen in past games.

    I think its a creative way to have a horizontal class/role progression without disrupting the core foundation of the game yet allows players to differinciate class/role customization.

    • 1665 posts
    October 31, 2017 11:47 AM PDT

    I believe in the last stream we saw the following stats:  Strength, Stamina, Constitution, Agility, Dexterity, Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma.

    One could do something along the lines of:

    Strength (physical power) - Melee damage, knockback resistance, jump distance, shield block, melee accuracy, reduce chance of interrupted spells

    Stamina (physical endurance) - Knockback resistance, health (HP), jump distance, endurance pool regen, reduce chance of interrupted spells

    Constitution (physical health) - Health (HP), disease resist, poison resist, endurance pool size

    Agility (physical movement) - Melee/ranged evasion, jump distance, fall damage reduction

    Dexterity (physical coordination) - Melee/Ranged accuracy, ranged spell accuracy, parry, melee/ranged critical hit chance

    Wisdom (mental health) - Heal spell bonus, magic resist, mana pool, ranged evasion

    Intelligence (mental accuity) - Spell damage bonus, spell critical bonus (this includes heals), melee/ranged critical hit chance

    Charisma (force of personality) - Spell damage bonus, heal spell bonus, reduces spell resist chance, increased threat generation on taunt based attacks

     

    Note that some of these provide the same bonuses, chances are they would be different levels of the bonus.  For example, constitution would likely provide a bigger HP boost than stamina.

     

    This would spread out effects from abilities such that most classes would still go after the stats that were typically important to them, but getting other stats up would not be bad either.  A warrior would still want strength, stamina, constitution, agility and dexterity, but getting some wisdom, intelligence and charisma would still provide them with a bit of a boost.  Spell casters would still want wisdom, intelligence and charisma, but getting strength, dexterity and agility would still be helpful to them.


    This post was edited by kelenin at October 31, 2017 11:48 AM PDT
    • 38 posts
    November 1, 2017 8:01 AM PDT

    So your sayin the same thing just using diffrent examples...cool

    • 326 posts
    November 1, 2017 12:25 PM PDT

    Reading you correctly, it would definitely make sense that character aspects would need improvement in all stats due to the angle of attack (or such) in more advanced content.
    I could also think of other points of view. Consider gnomes. If they have a kind of etheral body form, would they be dependent on Agility to jump a distance?
    What if Wisdom increases crit chance, just because the character would discover a weak point faster (that would open up a far larger form of game dynamics then is currently practical).
    Judging an opponent or challenge is in the eye of the player. Unless you expand on that with character traits. (not too far, lol)
    Perhaps VR already has considered these and it's for us to notice/find out.

     

    • 1458 posts
    November 1, 2017 1:37 PM PDT

    I like the thought process.  So you have a cleric that might be specialized in group/crit heals and another that is specialized on a single target heal and another that has improved buffs or aggro control etc.  There still would be a "best" min/max depending on your role in a specific encounter, there would just be a lot more specialization in a variety of roles. 

    I guess that leads me to wonder if there would be one specialization that is considered "best" by the playerbase (there usually is).  If you go from having 2 main specializations per class to 5 or 6 possible specializations does that increase the possibility that an unknowing player could gimp themselves?  I can think of times that happened in other games that allowed for a lot of player customization (non-cosmetic customization).  Maybe that is a non-issue because more options is better and those players always have a chance to start over...or re-spec through systems like progeny.  I guess we can't worry about some players gimping themselves stat wise.  That is going to happen whether you have 1 or 10 specializations.

    Talking myself through it, maybe it is a non-issue?  Thoughts?


    This post was edited by philo at November 1, 2017 1:45 PM PDT
    • 820 posts
    November 1, 2017 2:12 PM PDT

    philo said:

     

    I guess that leads me to wonder if there would be one specialization that is considered "best" by the playerbase (there usually is).  If you go from having 2 main specializations per class to 5 or 6 possible specializations does that increase the possibility that an unknowing player could gimp themselves?  

    Talking myself through it, maybe it is a non-issue?  Thoughts?

    Without a doubt, this will happen, but it's a matter of perspective to me. If I enjoy playing a tank with a different approach to stat allocation, and one that isn't considered the "best" by the majority, it just gives me incentive to learn that hell out of that class to the point that I still out perform and out tank those who did it the "right" way. 

    It's the difference between choosing a tank by class, and by name. 

    All in all, I'm a fan of this approach that's proposed here. Anything to set myself apart from the others of my class without stepping on the toes of other class specialties. 

    • 820 posts
    November 1, 2017 2:12 PM PDT

    Double post. Please delete. 


    This post was edited by Tralyan at November 1, 2017 2:13 PM PDT
    • 79 posts
    November 8, 2017 9:38 AM PST

    The problem in Everquest, Vanguard, and tons of other fantasy RPGs, in statistic allocation was that the other statistics just did not provide that much of a benefit.  For example, as a Warrior, the only benefit that charisma had was that it improved prices from NPC merchants.  Similarly, a Wizard had little use for strength other than carrying capacity.  I think the solution, as Kelenin alluded to, was making all statistics beneficial to each class so that it is a difficulty decision at character creation.  On those same lines:

    1. Strength (physical power) - Melee damage, knockback resistance, jump distance, shield block, melee accuracy, reduce chance of interrupted spells, carry capacity, outside combat mana regeneration 
    2. Stamina (physical endurance) - Knockback resistance, health (HP), jump distance, endurance pool regen, reduce chance of interrupted spells, max endurance, reduced fizzle rate, spell range
    3. Constitution (physical health) - Health (HP), disease resist, poison resist, endurance pool size, outside combat hitpoint regeneration, reduced food/water consumption, spell AOE
    4. Agility (physical movement) - Melee/ranged evasion, jump distance, fall damage reduction, outside of combat movement speed
    5. Dexterity (physical coordination) - Melee/Ranged accuracy, ranged spell accuracy, parry, melee/ranged critical hit chance, concentration while casting
    6. Wisdom (mental health) - Heal spell bonus, magic resist, mana pool for priest, ranged evasion, armor class for monks, hitpoints restored from heals  
    7. Intelligence (mental accuity) - Spell damage bonus, spell critical bonus (this includes heals), melee/ranged critical hit chance, detrimental ability/spell duration
    8. Charisma (force of personality) - Spell damage bonus, heal spell bonus, reduces spell resist chance, increased threat generation on taunt based attacks, beneficial ability/spell duration, improved vendor prices, decreased threat generation for detaunt abilities

    Now each statistic has a benefit for every single class, so no one statistic could be considered a "dump" statistic.


    This post was edited by Hadekin at November 8, 2017 9:39 AM PST
    • 1560 posts
    November 8, 2017 10:30 AM PST

    I just want to chime in that one of the things I absolutely HATE in most recent games is that they have these wonderful stats on your character sheet and then they set things up so that only ONE stat matters to you, based on your class.

    That's stupid.  I am strongly opposed to the idea of "dump" stats.  There should be real, meaningful choices involved in how you manage your attribute selections, whether that's at level 1 or level 50.

    All (or at least most) stats should matter.  Different classes might prioritize things differently but as a Warrior, there should still be a reason why a few more points of Dexterity (for example) could benefit me.

    That being said - I think the critical component is ensuring that all stats really DO mean something to players.  I like metteec's table above but I would add to it slightly to make mental stats important to physical-based classes as well.

    What if wisdom/intelligence impacted your rate of skill gain or even skill caps in some areas?

    What if charisma impacted your ability to control pets and NPC hirelings?  It's been implied that there will be purchaseable pets/hirelings available to any class, not just the ones individual classes get from abilities/spells.

    :)

    • 79 posts
    November 8, 2017 11:08 AM PST

    Nephele - We are in agreement.  In a perfect world, each stat point gained would positively effect your character in a meaningful way.  One Warrior may want to prioritize on strength and dexterity for maximum burst DPS, but another would focus on Strength, Stamina, and Intelligence to maximize DOTs and sustained DPS.  A different Warrior could focus on Stamina, Constitution, Wisdom, and Charisma to be the toughest meatstick in the zone.  That same Warrior could have focused on samina, agility, and charisma to avoid hits rather than soaking.   Meaningful stats give each class multiple ways to specialize their gameplay, and makes loot with stats even more valuable.

     

    We just have to be careful that we do not start having items drop all over the place that are +15 to all stats.  Early EQ had it right, where the best items had +HP, +mana, and one or two stat boosts. 

     

    • 103 posts
    November 8, 2017 9:44 PM PST

    I think making stats actually meaningful is one of the most important ways to make characters diverse and interesting. Every stat should impact your character in some capacity, some obviously having more of an impact in others depending on class and playstyle. One of my fondest memories in my MMO history was playing a Cleric tank in EQOA. I never reached max level with it, and if I did it probably wouldn't be as effective, but it worked surprisingly well while leveling due to having plate armour and the impact the stat agility had on damage taken.

    Strength - physical damage done, carry capacity

    Stamina - Increasing life and stamina-pool

    Constitution- resistance to elements and ailments

    Agility - chance to dodge/parry/block

    Dexterity - accuracy, as well as finesse weapon damage

    Wisdom- concentration and mana

    Intelligence- spell damage and healing

    Charisma - buff strength, and effectiveness of "mental effects", such as Charm and Mezmerize.

    Obviously these are just suggestions, the important part is making stats matter. I've come to absolutely hate where RPG's have about 6-7 stats, but only 1-2 have any impact on you. It makes gear progression incredibly bland and predictable. With a system more like the one outlined above, we're not only allowed to customize to our own playstyle, but get to see creative ways and combinations in approaching content.

    For example, you could have a Paladin with heavy investment in Charisma dramatically increasing the effects of his aura buffs, but at the expense of his ability to tank, deal damage and do backup healing. He's no longer able to fill the role as main tank, but can still off-tank, and provides the group with powerful thematically fitting aura bonuses.

    Another example could be a Warrior heavily invested in strength, which with the investment could be considered a damage dealer, rather than a tank. He would still be able to off-tank due to wearing plate armour, but far from as effective as someone who invested more heavily into stamina and agility.

    If they were to go down this path, however, I think it's important to make stats mostly dependent on gear. So that you don't end up in a situation where your character is completely useless because you dumped all your stats into what turned out t be a an ineffective, or nigh useless configuration. Having it be gear driven, would also encourage flexibility - depending on what your group needs at the time.

     

    • 1892 posts
    November 8, 2017 10:56 PM PST

    I bet we'll see the same character stats as in EQ1, Strength, Stamina, Dexterity, Agility, Wisdom, Intelligence and the useless Charisma with resists Fire, Cold, Poison, Disease having the same effects.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at November 8, 2017 10:57 PM PST
    • 264 posts
    November 20, 2017 3:12 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    I bet we'll see the same character stats as in EQ1, Strength, Stamina, Dexterity, Agility, Wisdom, Intelligence and the useless Charisma with resists Fire, Cold, Poison, Disease having the same effects.

     

    Not sure if you are being sarcastic (I never played Everquest) but resistances were pretty important in Everquest 2. I remember priests with high WIS and CHA were able to resits a lot of spells (super usefull for PvP). Probably less usefull in PvE as classes with high CHA and WIS are not supposed to have the aggro often.

    • 1892 posts
    November 22, 2017 5:48 PM PST

    Ithaca said:

    Vandraad said:

    I bet we'll see the same character stats as in EQ1, Strength, Stamina, Dexterity, Agility, Wisdom, Intelligence and the useless Charisma with resists Fire, Cold, Poison, Disease having the same effects.

     

    Not sure if you are being sarcastic (I never played Everquest) but resistances were pretty important in Everquest 2. I remember priests with high WIS and CHA were able to resits a lot of spells (super usefull for PvP). Probably less usefull in PvE as classes with high CHA and WIS are not supposed to have the aggro often.

    I was being sarcastic, but just about Charisma.