I have a question for pathing when you agro or pull a mob? I have not seen anything discussed other than in 1 video they talked there might be a special type of mob that runs to alert his friends to bring more, which is just bafing(bring a friend). So was wondering if npc mobs will have alertness to maybe hear you coming from around corners? Also, when you pull a mob does it take the same path as you do, or will it take a different path, or will it take a more direct path to you if the terrain is able to be maneuvered?
The one thing you see in games even today mobs pathing is structured and if paid attention to one can find the pathing of mobs to use to their pulling advantage.
The claim about predictable pathing is strange to me. EQ is actually the only game I've played where mobs are highly predictable, and I've played at least a dozen MMOs.
Pretty much every other game I've played has mobs moving in a straight line to you. DAoC might be one exception.
Yeah, aside from the early MMOs I haven't noticed highly predictable pathing so much as mobs just running in a straight line to get at you.
Personally I hope mobs can't aggro from around corners/through walls, it wouldn't make sense necessarily for a mob to hear you coming from around the corner because they wouldn't be expecting you to be there at all so they would think it is some other mob of their type until they saw you. Maybe you could get away with things smelling a player but in my experience it is not fun to be aggro'd by things you can't even see/know exists.
Yeah, I'm sure they will be smarter, im certain their will be mobs that might even sound alarms, or summon additional adds to make some fights harder, i can say that the pathing won't be an issue, like people have said the pathing in mmo's nowadays are pretty much shortest distance between you and where they currently are at, so i dont see them not doing this as well.
Liav said:The claim about predictable pathing is strange to me. EQ is actually the only game I've played where mobs are highly predictable, and I've played at least a dozen MMOs.
Pretty much every other game I've played has mobs moving in a straight line to you. DAoC might be one exception.
I have played many top rated games and games that have failed that claim stright pathing but I have always been able to find that pathing issue/bug what ever you want to call it if you just pay attention, unless you talkign about the asian fantasy genre games where mobs just run clean through every object and ignore pathing to get to you. Those are not real games they are just item malls and big number flash.
Any game worth looking at you will find pathing for mobs it is a rail to avoid collision detection or hang ups easy way out for programers :) and players always find that fast quick jump or hop onto or over somethign to get back to their group.
Todays engines and AI should beable to handle taking same path as you or since they live in the area know a shortcut that you do not know yet :)
My 2 cents :)
Liav said:Ah okay, I didn't realize games that didn't feature awful pathing weren't real games. I stand corrected.
Name a Game and if I played it I will tell you pathing I found in it. I could list the games I played till end game but it would be easier for me to have you list the dozen you mentioned since it is shorter lol. And games where the mobs run through objects to get to you is even worse pathing so yes that is awful. Example Shadowbane even you as a player could run through certian objects like trees but mobs would ignore all objects in the terrian. and I could go on about other games that are item malls that there pathing seems good because the mob comes stright to you but if you watch they running through stuff in the terrian instead of around or over it like you have to move. So yes those are crappy because no programming went into collision detection which is always a good programmers worry and concern. Hence term pathing.
Another example Star Trek online that mmo the mobs would shoot through walls to hit you when you pulled and tried to LOS them to draw them to you.
Another Example of a newer game Tera there would pathing for mobs so you just had to find the right spot to stand
Another Destiny you get up on the right ledge or location mobs could not touch you but you sniped them all day
Want me to go on lol I can like I said name a game. And please don't say wow because omg pathing is so funny but that game is so easy you do not have to worry about it since vanilla days.
ESO major pathing since they had what was suppose to be seemless areas till you zoned to a new instance but you could see the areas if your system was pushing full graphics and could handle it.
SWTOR was another that had them just had to find the right location.
All I am saying is if you can traverse the terrian or objects so should the mob.
kristov said: There are some really cool behavior systems you can get out of the box (as third party asset packages) in Unity. I picked up an asset called behavior designer several years ago and was able to create pretty complex behaviors without much effort. It wasn't much trouble to simulate sight, hearing and smell and set up properties that let you modify a specific creature's senses. This was around two years ago, and in a 2d project, but I can't imagine 3d would be that different: I have no idea what VR is using, but I'd imagine they're using something similar and pushing it to the limit with customizations. Seems like a lot of really creative guys building great stuff for the Unity Asset Store. I really can't wait to see what they come up with for Pantheon.
I Agree some of the new engines are fantastic but it isn't the engine it is the programmer. And yes I agree VR team seems to be doing great things I am excited and looking forward to it. I just did not see any post with concerns of this I would like to see a game with todays tech that a mobs AI can do what you as a player can as far as pathing.
And as a gamer you can not say you have never tried to jump up or over or get to a location that just seemed odd or like hey lets go there. You hear VR preach abouyt building a game risk vs reward I am all for it so make it if you can get there so can the mobs.
I do not know how many times I have went ontop of a building and shot my bow or gun in a game at a mob and they could not get up top like I could and it is easy XP. I just want to see mobs beable to go or get to locations we as players can.
Iksar said:Yeah, aside from the early MMOs I haven't noticed highly predictable pathing so much as mobs just running in a straight line to get at you.
Personally I hope mobs can't aggro from around corners/through walls, it wouldn't make sense necessarily for a mob to hear you coming from around the corner because they wouldn't be expecting you to be there at all so they would think it is some other mob of their type until they saw you. Maybe you could get away with things smelling a player but in my experience it is not fun to be aggro'd by things you can't even see/know exists.
Good point to bring up (it's kinda related to the topic - does that mean it's not a derail?)
While I agree that it doesn't make sense to be aggroed when, as you say, the mob could hear you and would probably rationally assume that it's just another mob friend taking a stroll, I think maybe some variations within the game would be pretty nifty. In SolB (EQ), you had bats that could "see" through invis via sonar (hearing?), and were able to apparently determine with that who was friend and who was foe.
I think having SOME mobs out there that acted as sentries, of sorts, that would aggro through other senses would be a nice change of pace and make the game feel more alive. Surely there are areas in a dungeon where NOONE should be, mob or player. It could add a fresh sense of danger to certain zones.
Riahuf22 said:Yeah, I'm sure they will be smarter, im certain their will be mobs that might even sound alarms, or summon additional adds to make some fights harder, i can say that the pathing won't be an issue, like people have said the pathing in mmo's nowadays are pretty much shortest distance between you and where they currently are at, so i dont see them not doing this as well.
All of this has been demonstrated many times in the livestreams, thankfully.
EDIT: I hope that we still see 'natural' predictable pathing where it makes sense. Such as at a fort or other inhabited area where guards could be found. There should be patrols which, over time, repeat at mostly set intervals (though I would not mind seeing the patroling guards sometimes walk faster other times slower to add variety). Those patrols should not, unless disturbed, change much at all if at all. This way players can decide to engage or try and bypass.
Vandraad said:Riahuf22 said:Yeah, I'm sure they will be smarter, im certain their will be mobs that might even sound alarms, or summon additional adds to make some fights harder, i can say that the pathing won't be an issue, like people have said the pathing in mmo's nowadays are pretty much shortest distance between you and where they currently are at, so i dont see them not doing this as well.
All of this has been demonstrated many times in the livestreams, thankfully.
EDIT: I hope that we still see 'natural' predictable pathing where it makes sense. Such as at a fort or other inhabited area where guards could be found. There should be patrols which, over time, repeat at mostly set intervals (though I would not mind seeing the patroling guards sometimes walk faster other times slower to add variety). Those patrols should not, unless disturbed, change much at all if at all. This way players can decide to engage or try and bypass.
Patrols should be predictable until agroed. Like you said a gaurd pratrols the outside gate along the road between tower 1 and gate or so on but then if agroed if there is a small stone wall or fence he jumps it not runs through it because we can't or he gets stuck because he can't or he has to run clear around it to get to you. As far as the streams they been on pretty flat ground and the mobs are not far when they pull matter of fact the mobs are close if you ask me but i understand they in development so agro range is probably turned down. So the videos aren't to clear on this topic if you ask me. Most videos they fighting on the road how many times did you fight on the road of EQ maybe the first 2 lvls of your toons life.
I would love for a mob around a corner to come and investigate when a sound is heard, then after seeing you attempt to call for reinforcements. I want the unpredictable element that keeps players in a state of readiness. It could develop a strong need for classes to use abilities, rogues to scout ahead, casters to use a muffling spell and so on.
An example. Your group needs to heal and med, you have a Bard with a song of restoration. Before the Bard starts to play you send a Rogue ahead to look for patrols or sentries.
I want suspense in a dungeon as to not knowing what lies ahead, and for players to react to the unexpected.
one of the most frustrating parts of any mmo is when you get attacked while selling,etc. it is ok to get attacked but when the mobs attack right through walls and ceilings it is a bit annoying. if you are in agro range but there is a structure in between you nad the mob it should impact the range. Too many times i was attacked in Karana and commons by lions and orcs while in mid trade right through the side of the shop. bah
I'd like to see a lot more care taken in not just the straight line pathing, but logical decision on whether to run at an attacker at all. I'd like to see more NPCs ducking behind cover to avoid ranged attacks, more flanking done by multiple attackers, more tactical attacks like triggering defenses of fortified positions like boiling oil, catapults, balistas, rockslides, kill holes, etc.
I doubt there are a hell of a lot of historical victories in battles where the defenders exited their position of strength.
Edit: This also defeats a lot of the "tank stand here, wait for agro to come in, beat it to death" tedium.
Feyshtey said:I'd like to see a lot more care taken in not just the straight line pathing, but logical decision on whether to run at an attacker at all. I'd like to see more NPCs ducking behind cover to avoid ranged attacks, more flanking done by multiple attackers, more tactical attacks like triggering defenses of fortified positions like boiling oil, catapults, balistas, rockslides, kill holes, etc.
I doubt there are a hell of a lot of historical victories in battles where the defenders exited their position of strength.
Edit: This also defeats a lot of the "tank stand here, wait for agro to come in, beat it to death" tedium.
This would be exciting, just them always making us fight smarter all the time would be a nice twist but i have to say once they do their alarm/set trap or what not they they do come to us for the mere fact that fighting them should be the challenge, not the frustration of basically having a puller not exsist becuase they dont actually come to us.
Isaya said:one of the most frustrating parts of any mmo is when you get attacked while selling,etc. it is ok to get attacked but when the mobs attack right through walls and ceilings it is a bit annoying. if you are in agro range but there is a structure in between you nad the mob it should impact the range. Too many times i was attacked in Karana and commons by lions and orcs while in mid trade right through the side of the shop. bah
I don't have a problem specifically with being attacked while selling ... as long as the mob has line of site. Now, when it comes to mobs attacking you through walls or if you are inside a house, yeah I totally agree. In that case LOS for mobs needs to significantly improve.
If I'm KOS, and they can see me, as far as I'm concerned I am fair game.
Feyshtey said:I'd like to see a lot more care taken in not just the straight line pathing, but logical decision on whether to run at an attacker at all. I'd like to see more NPCs ducking behind cover to avoid ranged attacks, more flanking done by multiple attackers, more tactical attacks like triggering defenses of fortified positions like boiling oil, catapults, balistas, rockslides, kill holes, etc.
I doubt there are a hell of a lot of historical victories in battles where the defenders exited their position of strength.
Edit: This also defeats a lot of the "tank stand here, wait for agro to come in, beat it to death" tedium.
Really like this. Adding more 'intelligent' AI would add so much to the game and experience. Of course, it would also add more facepalming, frustration and hair pulling. Eh, take the good with the bad. It's how we learn. Some predictability is fine - patrolling mobs, static or semi-static spawns, etc., but you have to think that if a mob sounds the alarm of attack that those npc vendors would either quickly close up shop or grab a weapon. Some of the most fun I had was taking a group and figuring out strategies and tactics. Adding different pathing, dispositions and such would only add to that.
I agree that some depth in terms of unpredictability and mob cleverness would be nice. As long as you don't expect mobs in general to be smarter than consistently attacking the toughest, least dangerous opponent just because he gives them the finger...