Many times while playing with my husband we come across a quest that's very lengthy to read, sometimes we will skip right through the dialouge. This isn't because we don't enjoy reading it's because we want to make the most out of the time we have to play together and most quests don't interest us.
I'm not engaged, and I don't care because it's not important... why? Because you don't really need to pay attention when you have the cliff notes right on the screen! =P
Contrary to how this might sound I actually enjoy reading, but I'm picky and If I think I can skip something that doesn't interest me I will.
A few suggestions to make quests more interesting:
1. Don't add cliff notes.
2. Invest the player emotionally.
3. Add intrigue and adventure.
4. Replayability
5. Accountability - ie maybe the quest mentioned something that didn't seem important at the time but rewards those who pay attention...
Kilsin said:What, in your opinion, makes a good questline and what do you prefer as quest rewards? #PRF #MMORPG #Communitymatters
I think anything can be a good quest - with the caveat that it's not the ONLY quest, and there isn't an over saturation of quests in general.
For example, in EQ you could go and collect gnoll fangs from Blackburrow, or crushbone belts in Gfay, and turn them in for exp and some patchwork armor, or sell them for plat to other players. Bounty quests, if you'd prefer that term. These never bothered me in Everquest because they weren't all over the friggin' place. Quests, when we compare EQ to other MMO's, were very thinly spread across Norrath, and so even the boring ones had value to them.
The problem is when the only way to progress your character level is by questing, and all quests are pretty much cookie-cutter versions of each other. That's when things begin to feel redundant and mind numbing.
So, don't make every quest an errand-running quest.
Don't make every quest a bounty quest.
Don't make every quest a collection quest.
Don't make every quest an epic quest.
And lastly, don't make too many quests, period. Don't over saturate the game with quests.
Experiences mean something more when there are less of them. They become "iconic" simply by being few. The gnoll fang quest in EQ would be boring in any other MMO, but in EQ it was "iconic". We remember it, because there wasn't tons of the same iteration.
Everquest is the ONLY mmo I've ever played where I've gone on-line to look up different quests to do. That wasn't because those quests were particularly hard, or intriguing, it was because they were few enough in number that just by doing them put you in a different pack.
Make them engaging, make them fun, make them original - but above all, make them few.
For me, a good quest, is one that is a) found in the world, without it being fed to you from another quest or "hub" and b) requires some consideration of lore and environment.
I would like to stumble across an NPC that sends me on a quest, not just to go kill 15 mobs and come back for a shiny reward, but investigate an area, learn its origins, and hand in an item that would interest the NPC. It would also be great, if several item's are available to hand in, giving different rewards based on the quality of the information provided.
Thats what I'm looking for :)
There are details and design outside of a quest itself that give it just as much value. In Everquest, it wasn't simply the fact that there were no yellow brick road paths to NPCs/quest goals; rather, even basic "find X person in dungeon" was inherently differnet, for the design of dungeons and zones leading up to them were much less linear, leaving you with enough twists, turns, rooms and mobs to not only get lost, but sometimes never be able to return from where you came (think about The Hole and that damn underwaterish zone with the sea lions that dropped the ranger 1.0 piece etc). This creates an exponential feeling of risk and reward upon locating your obective.
There is also something to be said about not bogging people down with too many quests. In contemporary MMOs, a new town really just meant a new bind point and 15 more tedious quests I had to run around and pick up (for someone slightly OCD like myself, it almost makes me feel subconsciously anxious to have to restock on so many quests, for I don't want to miss out on anything, but also don't want to dive back into the boring, repetitive themepark questing, so I'd have to look up which quests were meaningless and which ones weren't); quality over quantity. The minute a player compartmentalizes "quests" into the "tasks" bin, youve lost his/her currentand perhaps future interest in seeking and completing quests.
-More hidden areas/rooms, requiring direct knowledge of the lore of your race, class, region or Terminus itself (think LoTR 1st movie, stumbling onto the doors of the Dwarven mine I believe, where there was Dwarven or Hobbit writing on the entrance, and the riddle required direct knowledge of their race's language to be able to solve the riddle and enter, and answering incorrectly leads to perhaps more waves of enemies or just a fight in general). The problem here is making it interesting in 6 months when everyone can answer the riddle, so perhaps make the pool of words large or random enough to simply require someone to be carrying a book on them to be able to reference and answer, or add more variables to make it more mathematically demanding (e.g. must be a certain time of day, certain moon, certain class etc).
-With the culture detail and beauty in this game, I would really love to see ongoing quests of some kind from our starting city. I feel everything that made us attach ourselves to the world and players of EQ will only be exaggerated to even greater detail in Pantheon. Considering the history of Terminus (basically everyone right now is just chilling apprehensively after a bunch of life changing wars have come and passed), it would make sense for races/class to NEED to return to their own city frequently, with all of the dangeous tension and politics at hand in the world. This may seem vestigial, but it will serve for so much immersion and even nationlism/pride in your race, which is really important in getting "lost" in a world/game. With the architecture, colors, language, tapography and weather being variable for each starting city, there is so much potential here.
-create more "horizontal content" by ways of forcing your community to meet new people and expand (e.g. ONLY a halfling or gnome can fit through the tiny entrance of this secret chamber, main entrance of the entire dungeon to unlock the front door, or simply any side door to save the group 20 minutes of clearing). This forces us to respect our environments AND respect our fellow classes and races, while furthing giving opportunities for certain players to outplay or perform others.
-more timed quests for dungeons. perhaps you pick up a single quest with 2 major objectives and 2 minor objectives (major1 is find X, major2 is take this potion to find x before the curse turns her, but if you don't make it in time, the potion turns into a gas that gives the party a negative status effect curse for awhile or something for failing). I just simply enjoy the rush of "extra credit" or any opporunity that, with exemplary play, we can set ourselves apart from the others and be rewarded for doing so. Something that when we are talking with friends, we will say "oh damn, you were able to complete that one?! I wish I was able to."
-make more rewards that are "clicky" items, or items that are just fun or situational. These quests are the easiest to get people interested in. Almost every person is going to want to do them just to get their pick of a cool little item to mess with now and then. I really hope the gnomish transformation devices, breathing devices, (with refillable charges etc) just little items like that are abundant. Those items are not only fun, but you eventually have to decide which ones you want to put in your bags and which ones you have to leave in the toy box at home.
-more quests or group quests that reward a class spell upon completion
-more quests that have consequence in the world (e.g. group must free X from goblin jail, then for those who completed the quest can buy certain things or perhaps another questline can be opened up from his family because of it, a new trade/path route, just something to allow a player to actively engage in and change their environment.)
-stealth quests or quests involving memorizing patrol patterns and then sneaking around them appropriately (in the 10+ games I've played that had this feature - including all of the elder scrolls - I have always found this to be such a rush and a lot of fun). I'm suggesting a normal dungeon, accompanied by a mob(s) that perhap arent even targettable let alone killable; rather, some strategy during that dungeon crawl is learning to sneak or move around his movements/patterns (destiny 1 did this in one of the raids with that creature you could only walk by from great distance as he patrolled, and if you used run speed or got too close, everyone would turn to stone).
-quests/dungeon crawling being impacted by weather. I hope rain reduces vision, snow reduces movement speed, etc.
This is a great topic that I'm going to spend more time on when I get home. There has to be a lot of new ideas taht can be accomplished with this system and design (specifically the weather possibilities intrigues me).
I do NOT want quests to be how you get gear, with the exception of a few special items. Gear should be mostly crafted or dropped (a mix of VG and EQ)...NOT every few levels you do a chain of quests and gear up completely. If there are tons of quests, i would rather them just mainly yield faction and money, and maybe a little exp. Special quality gear should be an exception.
As for the quests themselves, i always enjoyed things that involved rare spawns (either questgivers or intermediate npcs that you talked to during the quest...not so much killing targets since they bottleneck) and having to figure out where to go or find something to continue. Also, multi zone quests were fun as well. A mix of easy low level stuff (pandos muffins for faction!) type quests are great plus some longer multi zone quests that involve rare spawns, rare drops, etc are good also.
~A quest should have some adventure and mystery to it. The giver should not have all the answers or locations of everything, just clues.
~Quests, should not be a primary source of xp, and should be more about acquiring lore or items, than about character progression.
~Some quests should be preludes into other quests, with smaller rewards at the end of each, all leading to something bigger.
~Quests and Tasks are 2 different things, keep it that way. Bringing a vendor 10 rat pelts is not a quest, it is a task. That said, sometimes it is cool to have that task open the dialog for a new quest.
~Obviously, no Exclamation or giant Question markers.
~Quests should not be required to advance. Players should not be hindered in their advancement because they don't enjoy doing all the quests.
~Class specific quests for armor or weapons are fun, but they should be unique and uncommon, not a new set every 10 levels (Think EQ Armor of Ro, Lambent Armor, Crafted Armor, etc),
~Quests have to have a purpose outside of just keeping players busy, they need to be part of the story, part of the world, something you do because you seek the adventure that comes with it, not because it's the next thing on the todo list to gain more xp.
Kilsin said:What, in your opinion, makes a good questline and what do you prefer as quest rewards?
Quest Rewards: A significant, meaningful, tangible change in the way the world perceives the character. Typically this would mean via diplomacy / faction, a change in prices, and the availability of products & services. I have zero interest in quests that provide me with instant coin and/or finished items appearing in my inventory, epic quests included. Let me gain the trust necessary, achieve it, or make it, don't just give it to me.
Good Quest line: Choices that permit (like SWTOR) you the option of changing your alignment faster or to a greater degree, if you're certain of your path.
If you're going to support this kingdom, and that means alienating another kingdom in a meaningful way, but I'm sure, then let me do that.
Good Quest line: One where you can influence, encourage, blackmail, entice, or otherwise coerce, cajole, or convince NPC's to action. If that means they ask out their crush, or attack an orc bandit leader, or redirect military supplies to outfit the goblins to support their coup, whatever. It's fine and dandy to have things happen to me, it's WAY better when what I do changes the world and others see it. This can be as simple as making a new fancy outfit via crafting and donating it to a suitor, or producing armor and weapons to give an NPC confidence in battle, to finding evidence a noble has designs on the throne.
Good Quest line: personalized, per player. Even if that means only the location, NPC name, middlemen, contacts, or spawned interactables have unique locations or appearance, at least it's unique to me in that moment. And yes, it's entirely possible with existing technology and no, it doesn't increase server load.
Below this is old content. (and is a bit generic, in some cases)
Here are some more general ideas I've posted before:
-Enhanced "bring me x of y" quests. When you finish the supply, the NPC's actually do something. It triggers an event. The fireworks are lit and shot off, the npc's actually don the armor, equip the weapons, and defend BETTER against the next wave of gnolls. The city guard replaces all the worn and frayed banners. The tavern wenches cry out "Fresh Beer!" and the tavern customers all cheer. The bandages on the wounded are replaced with new ones, visibly.
The second possible difference is that when you supply them with these items there are temporary rewards (depends on context of task/quest):
they add them to their inventory for sale
they lower the prices for the items for an hour
they lower ALL their prices for ALL their items for an hour
they offer an aura buff for anyone that comes near (resistance to disease, benefits of food, more courage/morale) for an hour
Can be applied to any/all NPC's in the world, no matter what their "real" function is, each of them has some kind of strange and weird thing they want. No matter how rare, and at the minimum, they offer a temporary aura buff, even if it's +Fishing skill. Perhaps they won't tell you what it is they want or need to be "happy" unless you're their political or faction ally. These buffs could also be very significant at max level, or be required to bolster the chance of success against certain creatures.
If someone else turns in the quest while the script is playing, don't interrupt it, but definitely reset the timer on the reward/buff.
-the ability to hire NPC's to do "anything", up to and including insult, mug, rob, and assassinate other players (with frequency limits). In particular, in an entirely PvE environment. Also, the ability to purchase buffs, pets, mounts, or other gifts that can be sent to other players, or coupons/tokens for the same, from NPC organizations that offer said services.
An Insult would be cheap, just a few silver, for example, but someone, even a little kid, would run up to the player, point their finger and say something insulting "You smell like a kobold!" Limit: 1/day/player.
Mugging would be a scripted event that reduced the players life to half, basically roughing them up a bit with a group of NPC's doing this when they went back to a town/city/village. Limit: 1/RL week/player
Robbery would take possibly 1% of the victims cash or one of each coin the player had on them, or similar small sum, capped at a certain value, after a mugging. So Robbery includes Mugging, but is more expensive. Limit: 1/RL week/player
Amateur assassination: Pretty simple. When out of the sight of guards or NPC's, an assassin mob is spawn and attacks the player. This mob is the same level as the target, but the target can win if they fight back. Expensive. Limit: 1/RL week/player
Normal assassination: Same as the previous, except this is a one shot kill, no way to get out of it via combat, but it can only happen once per RL week, per player. The only way to get out of this is if you have sufficient faction with the organization paid to perform the hit, they may warn you, and you can pay them off by paying MORE than the original customer paid to have you killed. Very expensive.
Guaranteed assassination: Same as Normal, but no option to buy off the hit. You are dead, 100% guaranteed, one shot kill, as soon as you step outside 'civilization'. Stupidly expensive.
The worst a single player could endure in one day: 1 insult, 1 mugging or robbery, 1 assassination (of any kind). Then it would be one week before any further "indirect NPC PvP" would befall them, except the insult. It may be a good idea to use a single target version of the "aura of the masters" for each of these, to ensure the script doesn't get interrupted. If possible, the deaths from these events should not incur an overly punitive death penalty.
Expanding on this idea further:
Employment
The player can hire any NPC in the game to perform a task, either directly or as a contractor. If you have enough money, faction, prestige/notoriety, or whatever other thing you want to call it, you can hire the NPC to do something for you. Everyone has their price, and just like the real world, if you offered $10,000 cash, and asked some random person to take off their pants and sing "It's a small world after all" you'd probably have success. This could also tie into a hireling system, but wouldn't have to. Basically every NPC in the world has at least one purpose, and that is, you can hire them to do something. This could be as simple as: fetch me a pail of water, make me a special batch of honey mead, plant these magic seeds and give me the produce. More complex might be: Make a statue of me out of wood, marble, or bronze, and place it in the center of the market square. Specific weapons & armor (like the drake/dragon scale armor quests in Dragon Age), large quantities of specific food & drink (basically an NPC Provisioner/Cook you provide the mats & money, they make the items). In fact, there's no reason why every crafting profession couldn't have an NPC that makes the same items players can make, with a massive profit margin. Make it cost 2, 5 or 10 times as much as it costs a player to make. But that blacksmith NPC, he can make the same things a player can make. Want it cheaper? Find a player. Want it now? Employ that blacksmith, but it'll cost ya!
How about a hand delivered message? You find some random NPC, and pay them to deliver a message to another Player the next time they're in town. Much more personal than the mail icon in the corner (which they might have seen) but definitely they won't miss an NPC running up to them yelling "Hey, you've got a message!". And if NPC's can utilize the same mechanic using a variety of "messengers" (from truant kids to thugs), that has definite potential.
With respect to Hirelings, why not allow Players to pay for a hireling to present themselves to another Player as a sort of bonus combat pet for a period of time. A great way to help other Players indirectly. And why stop at combat pet? Why not a servant that has an aura buff that reduces prices or increases rewards? How about being able to gift a temporary mount, employ the stablemaster to deliver the mount to another player, and it's returned after an hour, 4 hours, or day. Mail another player a coupon that you purchased at the mage guild that offers the presenter a 1 day +1 fire damage buff to whatever weapon they're using. How about a +1 poison damage buff from the thieves guild? Each NPC faction could provide these services for hire, both directly and as gifts redeemable by single players, or even entire guilds.
Bribery
Different from employment because the NPC doesn't want to do it, but you convince them its in their best interest, either by overt threats, blackmail, money, or a combination of all three. Mechanically, though, identical to Employment. This requires the player gets their hands dirty by performing tasks that reduce their faction with the "establishment" and raise it with the "seedy underworld". This is the alternate path to intangible power, and allows for things like paying NPC's to perform muggings, beatings, robbery, seductions, and assassinations on other players or other NPC's.
Similarly, all of the positive benefits of the employment mechanic above could be utilized in the criminal bribery sense. It's simply a matter of coming up with inconvenient, malicious or deadly effects that could be obtained from NPC's and would either affect a single player, or be an effect that would radiate from said player. It would be inconvenient to be saddled with an aura buff that increased aggro range by 25% for an hour. But not the end of the world. However, if you really want innovation, go for things like: de-modifier to charm/charisma for a day (basically an Ugly polymorph) so the player pays 10% more for all NPC services for the duration. Even better? They actually LOOK uglier. How about an Unlucky debuff, which makes the player get 5% less coin loot for the duration? You make these effective AND expensive and players will be lining up at "Ye Olde Hex & Curse Shop" around the block. The fine print? Of course, de-cursing is a service offered by NPC's, and it ALWAYS costs more than the curse did. So even if your enemy gets it removed, you have the satisfaction that it cost them, at least in the bank balance.
Politics
The next logical step from Employment, but involves large scale effects, rather than single individuals. This is where the player literally becomes a confidante of the king or queen, or befriends the advisors to the king or queen and affects things like: festivals, taxes, base costs for services, relations with neighboring kingdoms, attitudes towards potentially aggressive or dangerous humanoids, religious interpretations, nationalism, and so on. Consider the Urn of Andraste quest line from Dragon Age... The religious implications were huge as a result of finding that religious artifact. No reason why it couldn't be the same in an MMO. Similarly, every aspect of every thing provided by the kingdom could be affected by Politics, from prices to appearance, even laws and patrol strengths. Quests assigned by this could require truly co-ordinated efforts, with multiple members of a player guild starting rumors, influencing members of the court, providing indulgences for the same, and so on.
The blessing or favor of the court (or, indeed, any particular faction) could manifest itself in buffs, access to unique skills (yes, new skills on the hotbar), much like Banners work in WAR, LOTRO, and EQ2. However, these beneficial effects could be individual, group wide, or guild-wide, regardless of location in the world or activity. You could also influence the court to hinder your rival guild if they lack the favor you have. How about -5% less coin loot for all your rival guild members for a day/week? How about +25% higher mender prices for your rival guild members for a day/week?
Naturally, rising in power and prominence with one group or faction should incur the wrath or ire of a competing organization, and would thus require the Players to be on guard for things like ambushes and rumors affecting their own standing. There's nothing wrong with having to deal with a competing Baron who wants the ear of the king, regardless if they're an NPC or a Player/Player-Guild.
There is nothing preventing one guild from indirectly affecting another guild with such a system, either positively or (below) negatively.
Corruption
The next step up from bribery, similar to politics, but with a criminal twist. Now instead of becoming an advisor or friend of the rulers, you are blackmailing them, kidnapping the prince/princess or straight up corrupting them. Sneak the prince out to the local brothel. (Which you've properly "prepared" for his arrival) Uh oh! Royal bastard! That's some good leverage right there. Now, sign this that says Orcs are no longer kill-on-sight in your orchards and vineyards. There's a good prince! Now the player can go and negotiate with the Orcs to provide goblin slaves, forbidden goods, weapons & armor for an uprising, whatever. Access to rarer poisons, Goblinoid muscle, aggro-free travel through certain areas.. Say there is a chokepoint on the map, and yes, you can travel around it, but if you've got a "deal" with the orcs, you can pass right on through. Access to Orc vendors of course would be a side benefit.
Truly innovative? You pay the Orcs to actively hunt members of another player guild, and the more you pay & outfit the Orcs, the better they are. Even better if you can provide them with the actual weapons and armor they're going to use in their ambushes. And even BETTER if the opposing guild can loot some/all of that equipment, if they win.
Something that would normally be obscure to those that don't pay attention (don't want to pay attention) or couldn't be bothered. It doesn't smack you in the face but comes more from a realization that something is amiss, unfinished, incomplete, or intriguing (coincidence, causation, correlation). Something you may stumble upon and then have an a-ha moment! Maybe like putting a crystal that is shaped like an eye into a skull with one open eye socket and having something happen - but even moreso.
Tryting to think of an example to illustrate the point.
Suppose an artisan baker (cook) has the ability to make green eggs but normally it would be thought of as poison for say as bait for rats and mice (newbie gathering quests) and makes people sick if they ingest it. Somewhere along the line at an Inn the proprietor's name is Samim and a sign on the wall behind him shows a picture of green eggs and ham or even a menu offering ham with eggs. Someone picks up on the reference and purchases ham from the merchant (perhaps an array of food and only at this merchant is ham available). They cobine the ham and eggs to see if they can actually combine to make a tasty treat - no recipe - just something that makes them laugh and say "what if..." It is successful and a dish is made and they eat it. They are presented with a message that rather than says "you feel sick" with a minor sickness debuff they are presented with a message that says "you like it!" Upon further conversations with Samim he asks you that since "you like it would you continue to eat it?" Maybe a Yes answer would bring a response like "Great! You can eat it anywhere!" or a No answer would bring a response like "Are you sure?"
But seeing similarities an intrepid explorer sees clues and then goes about seeing if they can eat green eggs and ham with fox and with goat, and in a box (not a cardboard box in this case), and in a boat, and in various environments. They go on and eat it in 11 different spots or with different foods or in different environments. They also eat once right there where Samim is and they also eat it somewhere else anywhere else. And once they've been able to do all this they return to Samim who tells them where they've eaten it - heck do it all through the quest.
After that perhaps the reward is a recipe for food that produces a buff that can be beneficial and can be handed out, perhaps a buff that does not conflict nor over ride other buffs. Who knows maybe a minor stacking haste buff. If the artisan keeps it secret and just hands out food then people won't know, immediately, where it comes from or how it is made. It would be up to the artisan to divulge the source or not divulge the source (preferably not divulge it). I suppose even if it is a no drop self-only buff that would also be fine it doesn't have to be one that can be shared and given away. I was only illustrating how an obscure quest to be undertaken by someone as they see fit with a reward for their completing the journey can still have meaning and staying power for the rest of their days.
It would be fun for those that figure it out. Obviously, this being the age that it is, the quest would soon be ruined once someone decided to leak it online. But if the world is dotted with these kinds of obscure quests that can be implemented in an easy fashion I think it would make it great for adventurers, discovery, and those that can think above the rest.
I don't think these kinds of quests would need a lot of developers time and resources. Assuming there are a couple of quest designers or a couple of quests developers themselves would like to see scattered. Implementing something like this in already existing frameworks can help make the world more interesting for those that want the world to be interesting. The quests mean something to the person doing it (and to the person developing it - like burying an Easter Egg into the game). Also, differing perspectives from differing backgrounds sort of means only some people may get the reference immediately while others may only clue into it later on and some may never get it at all. Not all quests need to be grand. Having some quests be of a more personal nature I think would encourage people to stick around and even draw more people into the game.
Wizardry 2 Knight of Diamonds had something like this (I was a pretty huge addict to Wizardy but only kept with it until Wizardry 3). References to Tarot cards. I only made the connection because I happened to love James Bond Live and Let Die (had to watch it on commercial broadcast TV back then) and at that time that was my only exposure to Tarot cards and seeing it being referenced in an obscure manner that produced a big "A-ha!" moment still sticks with me today (I was only 13 at the time, I think). I was the one that figured out the answers and helped my friends (and brother and sister) to complete the game as they were stuck at those riddles.
Hard for me to say what makes a good quest, there are many different types and ways to do it. Mostly they should go about offering glimpses into the lore and/or events surrounding an area or person in the world.
It's mostly hard to say because some of the most memorable quests from EQ weren't incredibly rich in story but the quests themselves were fun. The mid-level armor quests in particular always stand out for me as favorites even if they weren't steeped in story. It was fun having to travel across the world procuring various items some dropped, some ground spawned, some purchased/crafted. Finishing these quests felt amazing. Then you had more lore rich storylines like the monk shackle quests in Cabilis that revealed a lot of monk-centric lore. And of course the epic weapon quests, those were wonderful.
The rewards for quests should never really be experience since the experience is from doing the quest itself, and the reward should try to match the effort needed. If a quest only requires something from the zone it is issued or adjacent then the reward should be minor, but if it requires a couple items dropped/spawned from across the world then it should offer something a bit more substantial. Ideally these quests take you to places you might otherwise not end up or even know exist, for example one of the shaman armor quests in EQ sent the player to a cave in the frigid north that could only be accessed by finding a hole in an iced over river and swimming upstream until you found yourself in a massive cavern that was home to a huge polar bear (and a much more dangerous high level necromancer lich you had to watch out for).
A good quest feels like...a quest. It kinda bugs me when you have a trapper giving you a quest to kill beasts. Why is he giving me this quest? Dude can go kill stuff on his own time. You should feel like YOU are the only person to accomplish the task being the hero or whatever. Not saying there shouldn't be a few of these quests, especially low level, but it should make sense why the giver is asking you to do it.
As for the quest rewards: It should match the investment in the questline. It sucks to reach the end of an 8 part questline to get a pitiful reward or have outleveled it. I always liked getting useful clickies in EQ2 for questlines. You tend to not outlevel them as fast and they add a little depth to your character. Problem is you can't make them OP.
I tend to be most fond of quests with a single primary reward that improves as you progress through various stages of the quest. It lends to a feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction when you slowly improve your item by accomplishing various tasks over an extended period. It makes the player have a sense of attachment toward the item.
Kilsin said:What, in your opinion, makes a good questline and what do you prefer as quest rewards? #PRF #MMORPG #Communitymatters
First thing first, you must differentiate between 'quest' and 'task'. Quests are long affairs, complex and difficult with no guarantee of success. Tasks, by contrast are single steps with clearly defined parameters. I do NOT want to see tasks. Tasks are labeled quests by lazy developers. "Please go kill 10 of these for me" are not quests!
Quests have or need:
1. Multiple steps, each increasing in complexity and/or difficulty. The Coldain Prayer Shawl, Epics 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, the early EQ1 class armor quests are all good examples.
2. Requres application of multiple class abilities, especially utility abilities. The EQ1 wizard quest 'Staff of The Wheel' did not need you to kill anything
3. Many pieces to the puzzle. This means not just 1 NPC gives me the entire picture. The first examples fit this as well.
4. Travel. In RIFT, an NPC asked me to kill some creatures from his farm fields, fields that were literally across the path from his cottage. I didnt even need to move from that spot as all the monsters were within casting range. Do not do that. How exciting would the quest for the holy grail had been if the damn thing was sitting in a cupboard in the pantry and the knights just needed to walk 20 feet. No, quests need travel involved.
5. Balanced Risk vs Reward. A lot of work for an item that is underpowered or quickly replaced is a quest, once it is widely known, will be a quest nobody does. If anything, the rewards need to be slightly more powerful/desirable with a longer lifespan than something from an equivalent non-raid source.
6. Needs friends. Some portion of a quest should require friends. Maybe it is for a kill portion to help you get through a dungeon or an EQ1 type 'follow the gnome' or 'ring' event.
Many many good ideas in this thread. Quite a few different perspectives and that is both inevitable and desirable.
Things that grabbed my attention out of the many things I thought would be very good include:
1. Quests should make some sense. Having a great hero waste two hours finding guano or goat droppings, or pig poop only makes sense if the objects in question are needed for something important and they also require a hero to get (the bats live in a den with a fierce monster, not simply the hero should travel a safe road scooping poop.) This said, I have to add that character level matters a lot. You aren't a hero for quite a while - menial tasks or quests make more sense for the rookie at level 5 than the great hero at level 50.
2. Some of the best quests may not require combat at all but would relate to the character's profession or craft or background (perhaps quests that had been done earlier). Vandraad referred to an EQ wizard quest that didn't require killing. I can think of a LOTRO quest for woodworkers that required gathering wood and repairing a bridge.
3. As Vandraad also said needing friends to finish it is a valuable part of *some* quests especially ones that give "epic" rewards. Those should be long and slow and many parts should be difficult. But many quests should be doable solo - Pantheon will be a game with more of a group focus than modern MMOs but not a game where grouping is mandatory (as VR has acknowledged - a game limited to only grouping wouldn't last long).
I would like to see quest chains with branches in them, what you choose to do will have an effect on what you can do in the future. Sometimes it will relate to faction, what you end up with as a reward might be used in a different quest, so your quest chain might end up different from anyone else. If you follow to the end of these type of quest lines you should have something interesting that benefits you in some ways, but the choices you made to get there should have costs as well. You might have angered the merchants guild by removing the core of a mine which had caused the ore to be enchanted, so now everything you want to buy and sell from that guild costs 50% more. You may have destroyed the alter in a temple and all the followers of that god hate you. Choices which will matter over the long haul, but, while you have an idea of what you are getting into, you are not sure on the final result. Those who favor what you have done will help you continue on the quest lines, but beware the hunters from the groups you have harmed. (random area patrols of hunters of various groups would also be interesting, if you are in a group where only one person in the group is hated, what will everyone do?) These choose your own direction quest types are hard to implement, but I think if you add something like this as a later patch it would be amazing. (one major patch just to add interesting questlines)
-Keelim
A good quest in my mind is one that is not easily solved. If it takes you a week or more to complete a quest then the quest is worthwhile. Now to be absolutely clear I don't mean farming mobs for a week or more. That isn't difficult it is just tedious. What I mean when I say it should take a week or more to complete a quest is that it should take you that long to find all of the clues that give you hints on what you actually need to do in order to complete the quest.
If a quest NPC just straight up tells you what you need to do to complete that quest it becomes boring and completely forgettable. The reason so many people remember epic quests in EQ was that they spent weeks on end trying to complete them and the first people to attempt the epic quests had to solve all sorts of problems in game to work out how to complete them. I'd be happy with far fewer quests as long as they were all really high quality and required a significant time investment to complete them.
With Wikis and quest guides that are going to pop up on day one, the fun of a quest needs to be something more than figuring out what to do next. I know, a player can opt to not read the 3rd party online guides, but since the bulk of the content is group oriented and we're going to have in-game voice chat... You're just not going to be able to avoid the inevitable spoilers coming from your group or guild chat.
I like what Cromulent is saying, but I don't know how it survives contact with the community of players, streamers, bloggers and fan sites.
If there was a randomized element where the steps, mobs and locations aren't so linear, it would at least negate the blind following of online guides. The quests need to morph enough that the online guide is just that, a "guide" and not a walkthrough. It would be really nice if the player had to think a bit for themselves even a year after launch.
One branch of quest lines could allow the player to collect items..books, music boxes that play the theme music from EQ, Pantheon...(ala EQII) framed pictures for your house walls, that open into secret zones (ala EQII) I'm a collector btw. Cosmetic pets to place in your housing (if we get that sort of housing eventually) explorer name titles and so on. Puzzles, secret rooms for discovery possibly linked to the Perception system. Easter eggs..things that make you laugh or remember. These could perhaps be part of dlcs or or special expacs.
Cana
Celandor said:With Wikis and quest guides that are going to pop up on day one, the fun of a quest needs to be something more than figuring out what to do next. I know, a player can opt to not read the 3rd party online guides, but since the bulk of the content is group oriented and we're going to have in-game voice chat... You're just not going to be able to avoid the inevitable spoilers coming from your group or guild chat.
I like what Cromulent is saying, but I don't know how it survives contact with the community of players, streamers, bloggers and fan sites.
If there was a randomized element where the steps, mobs and locations aren't so linear, it would at least negate the blind following of online guides. The quests need to morph enough that the online guide is just that, a "guide" and not a walkthrough. It would be really nice if the player had to think a bit for themselves even a year after launch.
I'm not sure if I am odd..but I like to accomplish my goals myself...don't use the online "cheats" at all. Never have..well except for the EQ maps, other than that ..more of a challenge to do it myself. Up to each person of course. :)
The best quests in games I've done are quests that can involve random elements and open world content that creates a scenario where no two runs may be alike.
I'm an old EQ guy, so I will use an old EQ example of a "simple" quest, the langseax quest in Halas.
I won't go into details, those can be found on sites like allahazam, but it involes situations where you need to talk to multiple npc's in multiple zones, and fetch items that can be easy or difficult to obtain depending on roaming mobs or rng, and ultimately leads up to a final confrontation that requires teamwork (run speed boost and survivability) and the best part is the end result is not guaranteed.
The last battle in the chain is more often than not a on-level npc that could be 2-3 manned. Or in the case the first time I did the quest, get the rare encounter (random element - detrimental) that is several levels higher, and had us running for the zone line. Fortune had it (random element - beneficial) that a level 30 druid was camping the fishing village grinding throuh hell level agreed to help heal/dot the npc until we had victory (and we still almost wiped). Afterwards, after a hearty round of thank you and celebration, the druid also passed off any bronze armor from his grinding (random element - beneficial upgrades) as a gesture of camaraderie.
Open world random elements are the best, and in this example can show how they can lead to excitement both good and bad. 20 years later I still remember this quest.
Now ask me if I remember any quest I've done in WoW, LoTRO, Rift, etc (the list is too long). Their quests sucked.. go here and do this, come back for your reward.
Thanks for Reading
~Rev
I like quests that are longer and broken up into parts. Kind of how the quests in Witcher3 are done. The player talks to a person. gets the first portion where they need to go look and investigate something and after you do so it updates gives you new direction to go. If its possible to make the quests with active decisions thats great also. If you are able to give players A or B options to complete a quest you can then give different quest rewards based on which option then chose. I could also see this tie in with the perception system.
also a huge fan of class specific quests
As for quest rewarads I find it often that the gear you get is a reskin of a certain teir of gear. so for example all the gear between lvl 15-25 looks the same but are just colored differently. Doing this to an extent is fine because I understand it helps immensly on art costs but if at the very least the look of the gear is regionalized or race specific. so if you are doing a quest from a halfling that gives gear, the gear looks like something a halfling would wear.
Breakdown in Communications.
Long, difficult, tedious... but in the end, you receive an award that was still used 7+ xpacs later.
I want to spend time on something that will last. Legendary quests (from wow) are typically replaced at the next expansion. They are wasted almost. I just want an item that doesn't get old very quick.
I assumed this had to do with epic related quests. In terms of just normal day to day questing, something rich in lore that is easily understood works for me!
Kilsin said:What, in your opinion, makes a good questline and what do you prefer as quest rewards? #PRF #MMORPG #Communitymatters
A good quest line will be personal to the player, will promote the player to interact with other players that they normally wouldn't.
Take for example Kizdean Gix, stalking around West Commons taking out the lvl 15 players... who wouldn't love a few levels later to get a quest like "Rogue Redemption" where you were sent back to take out ol'Kizdean. A quest like that, sending a player to take out an NPC that they already hate. To kill him in front of other players who he's been killing recently making this player a hero in there eyes.
A low level mob (15) in a high (30) zone, where a lvl 15 player needed to stealth, invis,sneak or ask for help,escort from a higher lvl player in order to single out the low lvl mob for his quest.
Quest where classes cross paths, more than just a rogue needing Kizdean but others as well giving them reason to team up. To gain the drop you need maybe it requires a Rogue on quest X and an Enchanter on quest Y to take out Kizdean together.
These are the kind of quest I would like to see.
For reward I would like to see gear, clicky's experience coin, all the standard rewards... I think Revenge, being a hero, working with new people making new friends is added reward.
eventually items quested for become obsolete.
I particularly liked the prayer shawl quest in eq. I know such a quest is not possible in protf due to limitations of professions. however, to do the second prayer shawl quest, you had to have done the first.
I like quests that are linked like that. Makes you have to go back and do these at a later stage.
Durp said:eventually items quested for become obsolete.
Not necessarily, In EQ my Wizard quested the staff of temperate flux. An instant cast clicky low level debuff that still works great for pulling. Was the perfect tool for pulling for Quad Kiting, and even pulling to a tank who could pull ago off wit a single hit... and it didn't take up a spell slot.
So many great posts already in this thread, and I really agree with almost all of them. So, at the risk of repeating what others have said... here's how I feel about quests.
1) Quests should be meaningful and memorable. They shouldn't feel like throwaway tasks.
I don't care whether it's a big, epic trek around the world to keep a legendary item out of the hands of a great evil, or whether it's just helping the local townsfolk solve a mystery - quests should be meaningful. At the heart of it, a quest is a story - and the stories become part of the larger narrative that we all live in our characters. 30 levels later we should still be talking with our friends about "wow, remember when we tracked the killer to the church? I never saw that coming!"
2) No "golden path"
At work, the "golden path" is a phrase we use to talk about the customer's experience setting up a new product - it's supposed to be easy, and intuitive, and nothing should cause any trouble in the proces. Quests should NOT aspire to this. I'm not saying that every quest has to be arcane and cryptic and require an encyclopediac knowledge of world lore (or Google), but the pointers given as part of the quest should require some interpretation. Don't put markers over the heads of the target. Don't draw shimmery lines to guide players in the right direction. And don't put something on the side of the screen that says "go kill Mong the Merciless in the Orc camp" as soon as someone picks up the quest. Solving the riddle, unraveling the mystery, putting together the clues is something that makes a good quest even better.
3) Quests should be a vehicle for adventures
Quests shouldn't be the sort of thing you solve on your own. They shouldn't be simple out-and-back trips. Instead they should be a thing that you round up your friends to do. "Hey guys, I have a quest to track down the leader of the bandits who've been terrorizing the area. He kidnapped someone's daughter. The trick is... no one knows where he is, and there's at least three bandit camps nearby. Ya'll up for raiding some bandit camps to see if we can figure this out?" Don't get me wrong here - I'm ok with some quests being soloable, but I want the majority of quests to involve, at some point, some group activity.
4) Quests should be special, and even potentially unique to your character in some cases
Nothing devalues quests faster than getting to a new town/city/campsite/etc and seeing a sea of quest markers floating over NPC heads. I'm not against the quest marker necessarily - I get that only wierd people like me will run around "hailing" every NPC to see what they say. BUT, there should never be a situation where there's a bunch of NPCs standing in the same general area and most/all of them have quests for players. Like, really? How are quests supposed to be meaningful when every NPC has one?
So keep them rare. Keep them special. Make some only show up if you happen to be in the right place at the right time (perception), or if you've met some hidden prerequisite (like finishing other quests, or being a certain class or race). Make it so that dropped items (the jeweled skull) start quests, not just NPCs. Don't overload us with quests, but instead make them something we get excited and surprised about when we find them.
5) Quests should be personal.
Obviously there are going to be new quest lines out in the world that anyone can find and do - but remember that bandit leader you killed as part of the quest back at level 10? Turns out, he had a brother. And now, at level 43, his brother has finally tracked you down and is out for revenge. Stuff like this makes quests more memorable and more special. Another example is faction-based quests. Reward players for their past accomplishments by giving them new, or "continued" quests - and don't tell them why you're giving it to them, any more than you have to.
6) Epics are awesome, but not everything has to be an epic.
I love me some "epic" quests - and by epic I mean huge, multi-part quest lines that send me all over the world to do things, retrieve things, solve puzzles, and so on. But not every quest needs to be epic in scope. As long as the storytelling is good, it's ok with things being confined to a region or local area as well.
7) Never tell me to go kill someone or something unless I'm supposed to bring back its head.
In many games, you'll get a quest that says "kill orcs until you find the ruby necklace" or "go get back the guardhouse key, the Ogre chieftain has it". Seriously, don't do that. If the goal is to retrieve the ruby necklace or the guardhouse key, then THAT should be our objective. Let us figure out how to get it by using our heads, or the vague clues that NPCs give us as part of the text we were supposed to read. I realize this is just more along the lines of what I've said already, but I wanted to call it out specifically.
8) Access quests are totally legit.
One of the things I loved so much when EQ2 launched was the access quests - the idea that, in order to get to a new zone, you first had to go through an adventure to get there. Maybe it was a sea voyage, or maybe it was finding the key to the door. The point was, not everything was open to you initially, and frankly this helped keep the world more immersive.
9) Quests aren't just for solo or group play, but for raids too.
Most games tend to limit questing to solo or group play and rely on loot drops to incentivize raiding. This is silly. A quest that sends you into the raid dungeon looking for a powerful artifact is just as compelling, if not more so, than a quest that sends you into the group dungeons. In fact, raid-oriented quests will potentially interest more players in raiding. I realize that sounds silly, but in every game I play I am always reminded that as casual and non-hardcore as I think I am, there are hundreds if not thousands of players who are even more casual and non-hardcore than me. Scary.
10) There should be lots of different types of quests (within the above guidelines, anyway):
- "Epic" quests - long, multi-part quest lines that reward something amazing at the end.
- Progressive quests that build on what came before - FFXIV's relic weapon quests, or the EQ Coldain ring/shawl quests are good examples
- Exploration quests that point you towards points of interest and introduce you to lore under the pretense of sending you out to retrieve something. The Karrus Hakrel quest line in Vanguard was a good example of this, or Trengal Keep - or really, almost any major quest associated with a dungeon area in Vanguard.
- Faction driven quests where you're on a mission to help out one group of NPCs or another. Bonus if these are mutually exclusive, like the Velious faction quests in EQ.
- Story driven quests that unfold as you play and progress your character. Not that there needs to be a story that you follow but quests throughout the game that are "connected" plot-wise. A non-game example: I'm a Dr. Who fan. I watched, I think, five seasons of Dr. Who until one day, they revealed what "Bad Wolf" was all about. And then I sat there, and thought about every single time I'd seen Bad Wolf referenced in those five seasons, and it very nearly broke my brain. Do that with the stories in quests, please.
- Access quests as mentioned above :)
- Non-combat quests! There's a quest in FFXIV called "the greatest story never told" where you're solving riddles to try and find a "lost treasure". There is absolutely no combat involved, and it is awesome all the same.
- Crafting quests (and eventually, if I get one of my wishes, diplomacy quests) - and it's ok if they cross spheres and involve adventuring too! In fact, please do that!
... ok I think that's enough for now. Hopefully that contributes to the discussion in some meaningful way :)