I guess I just liked unfair systems. I liked racing other groups to named. I liked having some jerk group swooping in and stealing your named. Then people like that getting a bad rep and everyone knew not to group with them. It added to the danger and it being more like a real world. I never liked the loot vending machine. I know it can get frustrating but, I think it feels more rewarding.
Jfed said:I guess I just liked unfair systems. I liked racing other groups to named. I liked having some jerk group swooping in and stealing your named. Then people like that getting a bad rep and everyone knew not to group with them. It added to the danger and it being more like a real world. I never liked the loot vending machine. I know it can get frustrating but, I think it feels more rewarding.
Fortunately, no one in this thread is asking for a loot vending machine.
Iksar said:I think a better way to handle possible monopolization of camps/items, should it arise and need warrant, would be making those sought after rare items "lore" to the character looting and having that include a character lockout from looting/buying said item again for x amount of time (weeks to months). This simulates (in a more roleplaying way) the idea that there really is only one of this item in the world (to your character anyway) and the item you found you sold off to Harry over in Brokertown. Some weeks/months later its feasible that it has made its way somewhere else for you to find, or the original owner tracked it down and took it back.
I don't actually see why this couln't work alongside/in combination with what I recommended - are we just sort of in violent agreement? :)
Iksar said:People aren't likely to be changing gear nearly frequently enough to warrant such ease of access to loot as a token system.
I'm skeptical about this. It's true that the "need" for gear is dictated somewhat by the speed of progression, but situational gear works against that. As an example, if everyone needs a normal set, and then a fire resist set, and an ice resist set, and a lightning resist set, and a poison resist set... that's a lot more things that people need to go and get than just if they only needed the one normal set of gear. Presumably, given a limited amount of content in the world that might drop that gear, that means more hunting/camping.
I'm not opposed to the idea of hunting and camping, but I feel like there should be a balance. Too much reliance on items drops just replaces the experience grind with a loot grind. Too little and it sucks the fun away from exploring and just confines everyone to the path of least resistance. The right answer has to be in the middle somewhere.
What Neph likes (in general):
- Unique, awesome drops from "boss" class enemies (probably only a few of these per dungeon/zone) - totally ok with LORE/NOTRADE etc tags here, and support that 100%
- Shared loot table of slightly less awesome drops for named mobs (shared, so that it cuts down on camping for loots and enables people to crawl dungeons). Prefer most minor drops are tradable but special stuff could be LORE/NOTRADE
- Named mob to boss ratio of 3:1 or 4:1, in general
- LORE/NOTRADE "Token" drop from "boss" class enemies (think: Head of the Orc General) that can be turned in to a bounty hunter NPC or similar for a LORE/NOTRADE reward item, chosen from different options. People may want to go farm these to get several different items but would require multiple
- One-time quest line that involves dungeon area, culminating in boss encounter, rewarding a LORE/NOTRADE item of quality.
Doing this, even if RNG isn't kind to someone, they still get something out of the trip to the dungeon, and groups are encouraged to go fight bosses and then get out of the way, so that other groups have a shot. Camps for named mobs may still happen, but if you're after a specific drop (that's not a boss drop), you aren't fighting other groups for one specific camp. Instead, if the Orc Chef in the kitchen is being camped, you can just go over to the Barracks and camp the Orc Warlord and still have a shot at the drops you want.
Of course, if everything is camped, that's a different problem altogether :)
Liav said:Jfed said:I guess I just liked unfair systems. I liked racing other groups to named. I liked having some jerk group swooping in and stealing your named. Then people like that getting a bad rep and everyone knew not to group with them. It added to the danger and it being more like a real world. I never liked the loot vending machine. I know it can get frustrating but, I think it feels more rewarding.
Fortunately, no one in this thread is asking for a loot vending machine.
I would have to disagree with you there. A system where you got ticket drops to hand in for loot would be basically a vending machine in my book. I do understand other's views of not wanting to be at the mercy of having a lucky drop. I feel there are already a lot of mmo that have currency loot systems. I'm a little old school and enjoyed the original eq loot system. That being said times have changed and players have changed and old school system may not translate well in current gen games. Hopefully there is a balance that can please us all, because I know we all want pantheon the succeed.
How about this. Bob the Banker has some common items specific to him, and a couple of rare items specific to him. We already know that crafters will be able to make a lot of items that mobs can drop. What if in addition to camping it for the rare, if you don't get it after a while a crafter can "break down" the items you did get and eventually make one of the rare drops? It will likely require more than just the drops, it should require some other items that are likely vendor bought, and maybe some items that are harvested or drops from other mobs.
Liav said:I like how every thread comes down to two extremes. It's either "easy mode, World of Warcraft clone, go away kids" or "eternal servitude to the grind simulator".
There is a middle ground to these types of things. Killing a mob X times and accruing enough "tickets" to purchase one item from a loot table is pretty reasonable to me. You're not going to flood the game with rare items by making sure that some people don't get screwed after literal months of grinding.
Agreed. I think I'm in the minority here, but I honestly don't think months-long grind equates to content. Players should want to do the same content several times over until the next expansion because it's fun, not because they still haven't gotten that drop which might become irrelevant soon after you finally get it.
I also honestly don't see the value in having über-rare items that only a handful of people will get. Have sensible drop rates and make everything tradeable for all I care. Considering the praises of realism around here, bound items are pretty unrealistic. In fact, my preferred system would have the most desireable items be player-crafted, using scraps from deconstructed loot and other rare crafting materials. If you have the coin to buy such crafted gear, go crazy with it.
Have to say I am totally against having any kind of token system for gear. I just hate the idea that if you stick it out killing something for a predetermined number of times you are assured your prize. It's a particiaption trophy. It is never in doubt so long as you kill mob x 25 times. Not my idea of good game design. At least with random loot you never know when if ever you will get it. It gives the loot meaning and status in my opinion.
Token gear is not something by itself that would make me abandon the game or anything, but it's high enough that only a couple more things added too it would make me walk away. Really dislike the concept in general.
Liav said:I like how every thread comes down to two extremes. It's either "easy mode, World of Warcraft clone, go away kids" or "eternal servitude to the grind simulator".
There is a middle ground to these types of things. Killing a mob X times and accruing enough "tickets" to purchase one item from a loot table is pretty reasonable to me. You're not going to flood the game with rare items by making sure that some people don't get screwed after literal months of grinding.
What about a loot table voting system handled completely by the game. We're in EQ1 raiding Nagafen, he has a loot table where some items are restricted to a specific class (or classes) with other items being All/All. Each item has an invisible rarity percentage tied to it. Raid goes in, kills Nagafen and now a screen opens up with thumbnails of his entire loot table. Everyone can choose, just for the sake of argument, 4 items. The game tallies up all the votes, finds out which items are the most desired and through an algorythm taking into account the rarity components, creates an appropriate loot chest. There would be one last check though to see if there is a class that is not present so that items for that class would not even drop.
For clarity sake, here's Nagafen's original loot table:
Black Sapphire
Bladestopper
Blight, Hammer of the Scourge
Blue Diamond
Cloak of Flames
Gauntlets of Fiery Might
Gold Plated Koshigatana
Hierophant`s Crook
Orb of Tishan
Prayers of Life
Red Dragon Scales
Ruby Crown
Selo`s Drums of the March
Torn, Burnt Book
Treasure Hunter`s Satchel
Everyone remembers how all the melee wanted that Cloak of Flames while every Bard wanted Selo's Drums of the March and every Monk wanted that Treasure Hunter's Satchel. So say early on everyone is wanting everything, so the baseline random rate will probably dominate the loot. Over time, lets say fewer and fewer bards need that drum so people stop voting for it and it quickly drops down in the rate at which it appears. If no bards were on a given raid, why should that drum even drop to just see it rot?
What we must remember about all this is we still do not know what size raids will be, or even if they will be capped at some size (72 in EQ1 for example) or how large loot tables will be for a given raid target. All we know is that desirable items need to be rare, however that is determined, so that players have a reason to going back and doing things multiple times.
Only issue I see is that a new mob's loot table might be spoiled by such a feature unless it only activates after a certain period of time has elapsed. Any method if biasing loot away from rot/things people don't need in the long term is something I can get behind, including this suggestion. Maybe the feature could activate after a boss has been in the game for a month or so after a given raid encounter has been killed once on a given server.
Taking months tends to be an extreme. I don't recall anything in EQ (save for raid drops and Fungi Tunic) that took me more than a few weeks to get, mind you that's not of constant grinding away so much as saying "Okay, this is what I want to work toward next" and set my focus. Joining any camps with even half decent drops when I couldn't get into the camp that had what I needed, selling the items I won, and then eventually either winning the item in the camp or buying it from some other player.
I understand the desire to have tokens and I get that you’re working towards something specific and can stop after all while being able to measure your progress along the way "Oh, I am at 2 of 4 tokens and can get the weapon! Not bad!" But I think this kind of system is detrimental to the game, more specifically the economy. If players can rely on just getting tokens (which are relatively easy to earn in comparison) or they otherwise know how close they are to getting what they are after ahead of time then there is much less need to rely on other players and demand as a whole goes down as it becomes far easier to be self reliant. When you keep things rare by otherwise having no means to obtain something outside from the drop chance it helps create items that can be sold to other players or traded. The more rare drops are, the more they’re going to be worth both in terms of in-game value and in terms of personal accomplishment. Some players end up getting the drop on their first attempt while others will spend hours, days, or maybe weeks trying but the more a player has worked towards obtaining it without success, the more value the item has to them and the more memorable it becomes.
In the event that there is a lot of situational/alternate gear in this game then it's even less of a problem as the odds that there is a single item you need is far less, one thing is camped then shoot for a different item in the meantime. If you already have most of the gear you need and are just trying to finish up the last few pieces then participate in the economy or hold out for your shot at the drops as I imagine anyone that far along gear wise is already in a good place.
Tokens set up a standard value reward for doing something and removes the important excitement and feeling that the next kill could be the gold mine. To me tokens only make the grind painfully obvious but RNG keeps it interesting.
If you desperately wanted to cling to tokens then I would propose this: Each kill of the named in question drops 1/5th of a "token." Any player that gets all 5 can combine them into the complete (lore) "token" and then that item along with other mats can be used by a crafter to create an item on the named mob's loot table. The catch being that the maximum success rate of the crafting is equal to the drop chance of the item on the mob (less if the crafter botches a step or non high quality mats are used) and upon failure all items are lost.
I don't really have a strong view on it, it's just that I prefer mechanics that reward skill and effort over luck. While I understand that luck will always play a role, I'd like to see some mechanics that at least negate it a bit in extreme circumstances.
Luck <--------|----------------------------------------------------> Skill/Effort
^ This is how I view EverQuest, and also Vanguard in some niche situations such as the ring from Core, as well as Vercel's mask, the Monk/Disciple gloves from BoD, etc.
I simply want to move more towards the center, if not biased to the right of such a spectrum.
I'd be okay with a "ticket system" for "stop gap" gear.
In EQ1 in the later years, there were these "Old Man Mckenzie" raids that wear you got put into the roles of characters in his stories of taking down the old raid content like Naggy. Running these raids, items would drop in the raid and you would get "brews" that you could trade with the old man for other items that dropped in these raids. They were fun and nostalgic. They weren't as hard as most raids and could be done by a group. The rewards were significantly better than average group content but lacking compared to raid content of the same era. But if you were having a hard time getting the better gear it would fill a spot.
I'm okay with a system like this filling a similar role, but not replacing the high-end stuff.
Liav said:I don't really have a strong view on it, it's just that I prefer mechanics that reward skill and effort over luck. While I understand that luck will always play a role, I'd like to see some mechanics that at least negate it a bit in extreme circumstances.
Luck <--------|----------------------------------------------------> Skill/Effort
^ This is how I view EverQuest, and also Vanguard in some niche situations such as the ring from Core, as well as Vercel's mask, the Monk/Disciple gloves from BoD, etc.
I simply want to move more towards the center, if not biased to the right of such a spectrum.
I really want to agree with this, 100%, and I've been trying to figure out why I don't. I think that maybe it's a difference in what we view as being "skill/effort", and "luck".
You seem to be saying that, having to kill and loot the same mob over and over, hoping for that drop, is luck. I, on the other hand, believe that would also go under skill/effort. Less skill, more effort. I mean, it takes a lot of effort to crawl your tired ass back to the same old camp and hope for that item to finally drop. The grind that we have this love hate relationship for, it may not take skill, but it sure as heck takes a LOT of effort.
The problem with the token thing, from my point of view, is I don't see that as an increase in skill or effort - just a decrease in luck and effort. I don't see it as a positive step forward in achieving the balance that you're hoping to see. The biggest problem I have with most recent MMO's is that, while trying to make it less about luck (long camps and long grinds), they've excessively decreased the amount of effort it actually takes to achieve things. That's not really a sacrifice that I, personally, am willing to make in my gameplay.
I'm not saying that there isn't a way out there to increase the level of skill/effort needed, while decreasing luck - I just don't see tokens as being the way to go.
If these items that are so difficult to loot can also be tradeable, and bought with coin from other players as an alternative to camping, where is the issue with that? That seems to address your issue of it being so much about luck, as collecting the coin is definitely something that could require skill and effort.
Or am I missing your point? That's a genuine question.
I think he is mostly talking about raid mobs. They generally have a longer respawn or "lockout" and when they are purely RNG based it can definitely create a "heaven" or "hell" dimension for your character ... and where you go for eternity is based more on luck than skill/effort. I have seen it myself many times. I personally don't have any issue with a ticket or token system but I think they should be used sparingly, or be directly tied into the death penalty from a risk vs reward standpoint. I agree with Liav that loot has historically teetered more toward the luck end of the spectrum than skill. You could have the fastest kill worldwide and get the worst drop. You could kill a boss with zero mistakes and still get stuff that rots. On the other side of the equation you can barely win the encounter by the skin of your teeth and get multiple lucky drops. RNG is fine but when all of the best loot is purely 100% RNG there is definitely potential for good players to end up in hell, and at no fault of their own. It happens ... but it really sucks when it happens to you. I have seen people farm the same encounter for 8 months, never missing a raid but also never seeing a specific item drop ... then all the sudden they miss a raid due to RL issues or whatever and the coveted item they have been waiting for drops and they miss out. It's a big load of crap seeing that happen.
Right, I'm not talking about group content with a 30 minute respawn. I'm talking about farming the same raids for months and not seeing a specific item. I don't want to see people getting full best in slot with ease, but being able to reliably secure one item from a large loot table over a long period of time seems reasonable to me.
I have no expectation of getting everything I want within a couple months, that'd be ridiculous and unreasonable of me. However, most content always has that one item you want that just seemingly never drops. Some people will get lucky and get it to drop, those who don't will at the very least be able to get one after quite a while of farming a given mob. There are items in numerous games that I'd have happily traded half of my BiS gear for, no questions asked.
Like I said, I just want to skew things ever so slightly in the direction of being able to anticipate a reward. I would argue that this would be a huge help to content burn out by encouraging people to continue farming raids and actually having a carrot, as opposed to feeling like the universe gained sentience and wants you to personally never be happy.
I am not arguing for a loot dispenser.
To illustrate 1AD7's "heaven/hell" point. Way back in EQ when I was working on my fiery avenger (post-kunark), I killed Lady Vox almost every week over a period of 36 weeks trying to get that half of the book. I led at least half of the raids myself and the book dropped a fair number of times, but unfortunately I was being idealistic and not reserving the drop, and instead counting on rolls, which I lost every time. My guildmates had finally had enough of my idealism and on the 37th week they just told everyone the book was reserved for me. If they hadn't done that I might never have finished that quest.
Naggy's half of the book, on the other hand, I won on the second attempt (it didn't drop on the first one).
This experience is why I am in favor of bosses dropping an "item" that can be turned in, in addition to normal drops. Not tokens in the "I have a stack of tokens I farmed" sense, but more like the head/ear/claw of the boss, that I can use to prove to an npc that I killed it and get some kind of reward. Apologies if that wasn't very clear in my previous posts, since I was using the T word :)
Perhaps, loot tables can just have an algorithm that has access to the the drop history of that raid mob (and possibly the raid forces that were involved, though that could get rather resource expensive) and maintain a balance of drops. In other words when one item has only dropped 5 times and most other items in the loot table have dropped 50 times, it'll favor that drop for a while until it catches up. And, if it is desired that some items are to be more rare than others, the calculation can be given a curve so that it only catches up to, say, 15 or 25 instead of 50. The main point being that one never gets into the situation where one item literally never drops or drops so infrequently that it might as well be never.
DragonFist said:Perhaps, loot tables can just have an algorithm that has access to the the drop history of that raid mob (and possibly the raid forces that were involved, though that could get rather resource expensive) and maintain a balance of drops. In other words when one item has only dropped 5 times and most other items in the loot table have dropped 50 times, it'll favor that drop for a while until it catches up. And, if it is desired that some items are to be more rare than others, the calculation can be given a curve so that it only catches up to, say, 15 or 25 instead of 50. The main point being that one never gets into the situation where one item literally never drops or drops so infrequently that it might as well be never.
Statistically, someone will still get utterly screwed. On an infinite timeline with infinite universes, a theoretical 99.9% chance will be an actual 0% chance.
While the odds of that happening in a video game loot table are statistically zero, I'd rather have at least some type of chance-defeating mechanic.
There's no right or wrong answer to loot design; rather, it comes down to the player's preference. With that said, having a casual, attainable loot approach just feeds right back into the instant-gratification model Pantheon aims to avoid/crush. The good stuff will be saved for the few, rest assured. There are a litany of games out there that will give you the same top gear as the other players who are working and playing 3x as often and hard if that's the kind of fun time for everyone game you want. Let those themepark MMOs R.I.P. :D
Zuljan said:There's no right or wrong answer to loot design; rather, it comes down to the player's preference. With that said, having a casual, attainable loot approach just feeds right back into the instant-gratification model Pantheon aims to avoid/crush. The good stuff will be saved for the few, rest assured. There are a litany of games out there that will give you the same top gear as the other players who are working and playing 3x as often and hard if that's the kind of fun time for everyone game you want. Let those themepark MMOs R.I.P. :D
Life must be difficult when you can only see in black and white. I'm sorry.
Liav said:Zuljan said:There's no right or wrong answer to loot design; rather, it comes down to the player's preference. With that said, having a casual, attainable loot approach just feeds right back into the instant-gratification model Pantheon aims to avoid/crush. The good stuff will be saved for the few, rest assured. There are a litany of games out there that will give you the same top gear as the other players who are working and playing 3x as often and hard if that's the kind of fun time for everyone game you want. Let those themepark MMOs R.I.P. :D
Life must be difficult when you can only see in black and white. I'm sorry.
It's just math, you can't create a rare-common item. Devs have mulled over it for years.
And on the contrary, life must be so nice when you have free time to respond to every persons comment in a thread. Almost to 2k! I wanna be just like you!
Liav said:Zuljan said:There's no right or wrong answer to loot design; rather, it comes down to the player's preference. With that said, having a casual, attainable loot approach just feeds right back into the instant-gratification model Pantheon aims to avoid/crush. The good stuff will be saved for the few, rest assured. There are a litany of games out there that will give you the same top gear as the other players who are working and playing 3x as often and hard if that's the kind of fun time for everyone game you want. Let those themepark MMOs R.I.P. :D
Life must be difficult when you can only see in black and white. I'm sorry.
It's just math, you can't create a rare-common item. Devs have mulled over it for years.
And on the contrary, life must be so nice when you have free time to respond to every persons comment in a thread. Almost to 2k! I wanna be just like you!