I've been thinking about the experience ranges that were in EQ1 back in the day.
Roughly I think it was something like:
if they are RED then they are 4+ levels higher than you
if they are YELLOW they are 1-3 levels higher than you
if they are WHITE they are the same level as you
if they are DARK BLUE they are 1-5 levels lower than you
if they are LIGHT BLUE they are 6-10 levels lower than you
if they are GREEN they are 11-15 levels lower than you (you gain a very small amount of xp from green con mobs)
if they are GRAY they are 16 or lower than you and you wont gain XP from their death.
My concern is the BLUE mob area.
For a lot of EQ1 the sweet spot for exping was quickly burning through DARK BLUE mobs. The incentive for fighting YELLOWs just didn't out weight the spell resists, higher hit points, and more AC that the higher level mobs brought to the table.
Another problem arose when people figured out how to stun lock large groups of LIGHT BLUE mobs and burn them down with AoE spells. This practice could be dangerous but once you got it down it became the easiest way to level up.
I hope that in Pantheon it won't be practical to just grind out easy mobs to max level. I'd really like to be incentivized with not just loot but also better exp for going into more dangerous areas.
This also makes me think about raid exp and how it should be better than it was in EQ1 and Vanguard... IMO raiding should be a valid way to gain exp.
Given a choice what path would you take; Grind out easy mobs to max level... or risk it all and ride the highs and lows of the cutting edge content ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
EQ2 used a similar system but with some extra colors. Pretty sure it worked like this:
Red -- 9 levels or higher than you.
Orange -- 5-8 levels higher than you.
Yellow -- 1-4 levels higher than you.
White -- Same level.
Dark Blue -- 1-3 levels lower than you.
Light Blue -- 4-6 levels lower than you.
Green -- 7-10 levels lower than you.
Grey -- 11+ levels lower than you.
From what I can remember, farming yellows was most efficient for XP. I still think the leveling curve from FFXI was the best I have ever seen in any game. They used XP chains, and only yellow con or higher mobs would qualify for the chain. They didn't use color cons in that game but it was essentially the same thing. The mob had to be "challenging" which meant it had to be a higher level than you. There was never a point where farming "easy" mobs was most efficient. People embraced challenge very early on ... hell, as soon as you started grouping! It was all about the XP chains! They reduced monotony (you move to a new camp as soon as mobs stop conning as challenging) and added a fun layer of strategy and coordination to combat. We aren't going to see them in Pantheon but if it's something you're interested in learning about, feel free to check out this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6403/xp-bonus-chains
*Edit -- Beware of the tone in the thread. Plenty of examples of people shooting the idea down based on false narratives or preconceived notions of how it worked. It is explained in greater detail as the conversation progresses, but the thread is mostly a mess. Not going to delve into specifics but I'd like to share one of my favorite quotes:
Liav: May 31, 2017 4:17 PM EDT
"If 1999 EQ launched with bonus XP for consecutive kills and an across the board 25% reduction in base XP to compensate, a lot of people would be praising how amazing it was and how it should definitely be a thing in Pantheon, because it's a "hardcore" mechanic that rewards skilled players over those darn instant gratification/participation trophy/millennial/gold star kids who play modern video games.
I'm clearly being a little over the top but I'm also being fairly serious."
If I am alone or with a group that I know and trust, then pushing the limits of our abilities is always a challenge that I will seek out. With unfamiliar groupmates, then I usually just play it safe.
The wider you spread the acceptable leveling range, the more balancing you have to do. If the developers are crafting a camp of gnolls at level 14, then with the dark blue only rule, they need to balance the camp for players between level 15-19 and make sure that it's fun and engaging. As you extend out from there, they will need to balance that camp of gnolls for, say, levels 13-22 and still have it be fun and engaging. I would imagine the devs will do their best, but at some point you can no longer expect a level 10 to have fun working on the same content as a level 25, even if it would be nice if it could be that way. They'll probably work to make the range as wide as they can, but use scaling to discourge the content that cannot reasonably be balanced.
This got me thinking and it might be fun to mix the con system with the progeny system. If you're a 2nd generation bad***, heir to a legend of Terminus, then piddling green-con mobs are beneath you and should not yield experience. As you move along to 6th-7th generation, then your family's reputation demands that only the strongest challengers be sought out. Might be fun if heirs to long family lines were traveling to the far reaches of the world to find worthy foes to take down.
Personally, I'd prefer Pantheon use this:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/elder-scrolls-onlines-level-scaling-is-what-more-mmos-need
To keep all zones relevant / useful. Or some mechanic that provides the same thing, optionally / effectively.
Angrykiz said:My concern is the BLUE mob area.
For a lot of EQ1 the sweet spot for exping was quickly burning through DARK BLUE mobs. The incentive for fighting YELLOWs just didn't out weight the spell resists, higher hit points, and more AC that the higher level mobs brought to the table.
Another problem arose when people figured out how to stun lock large groups of LIGHT BLUE mobs and burn them down with AoE spells. This practice could be dangerous but once you got it down it became the easiest way to level up.
I hope that in Pantheon it won't be practical to just grind out easy mobs to max level. I'd really like to be incentivized with not just loot but also better exp for going into more dangerous areas.
This also makes me think about raid exp and how it should be better than it was in EQ1 and Vanguard... IMO raiding should be a valid way to gain exp.
Given a choice what path would you take; Grind out easy mobs to max level... or risk it all and ride the highs and lows of the cutting edge content ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
I loved AEO Chardok Groups, bring that experience back, it was amazing. And yes we died a lot learning so the risk vs reward was worth it. Do not artifiicially block certain playstyles.
oneADseven said:EQ2 used a similar system but with some extra colors. Pretty sure it worked like this:
Red -- 9 levels or higher than you.
Orange -- 5-8 levels higher than you.
Yellow -- 1-4 levels higher than you.
White -- Same level.
Dark Blue -- 1-3 levels lower than you.
Light Blue -- 4-6 levels lower than you.
Green -- 7-10 levels lower than you.
Grey -- 11+ levels lower than you.
I will only seek out Red anything else is beneath me! The whole game should be filled with Red only muhahahahahaha.
lol j/k guys dont have a seizure.
vjek said:Personally, I'd prefer Pantheon use this:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/elder-scrolls-onlines-level-scaling-is-what-more-mmos-need
To keep all zones relevant / useful. Or some mechanic that provides the same thing, optionally / effectively.
Don't think this type of thing would work without instances. It could be done, sure, but it wouldn't really "work".
I'd like to see it work out to where fighting yellows/low reds is the best exp gain but requires good teamwork and skill to make it pay off, otherwise most groups doing "even" & dark blue cons.
vjek said:Personally, I'd prefer Pantheon use this:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/elder-scrolls-onlines-level-scaling-is-what-more-mmos-need
To keep all zones relevant / useful. Or some mechanic that provides the same thing, optionally / effectively.
This is the absolute best way to kill the game to me. This would make it a hyper casual adventure game and kill almost all sense of progression/the journey of character growth in a living world.
Mob cons were only a rough guestimate of how 'matched up' you might be against the NPC and that is how it should be. Where that yellow might utterly annihilate one class another of the same the same level and gear might have a much easier time. Only through meeting various creatures hundreds of times do you then start to build your own internal 'can I defeat this or not' classification.
I say a 'con' should only be a rought guestimate is because of the number of variables which should come into play:
I remember when Kunark came out and how much more difficult blue cons were compared to old work blue cons. Kunark NPCs were tougher, on average. That tread only continued as the game progressed through the expansions.
In the end, it should be up to the players to determine which cons represent the best bang for their buck, so to speak. Those with a penchant for pushing the limits, those knowing the strengths and weakness of their own class as well as all the other classes and those who can better understand the underlying game mechanics should be able to gravitate to the harder NPCs and prosper while those who take a more relaxed approach should be satisfied on less conning NPCs. Risk vs reward is what it is all about. Let us determine where we draw the line. Believe me, though, that we'll let VR know if the equations are horribly unbalanced.
Angrykiz said:I've been thinking about the experience ranges that were in EQ1 back in the day.
Roughly I think it was something like:
if they are RED then they are 4+ levels higher than you
if they are YELLOW they are 1-3 levels higher than you
if they are WHITE they are the same level as you
if they are DARK BLUE they are 1-5 levels lower than you
if they are LIGHT BLUE they are 6-10 levels lower than you
if they are GREEN they are 11-15 levels lower than you (you gain a very small amount of xp from green con mobs)
if they are GRAY they are 16 or lower than you and you wont gain XP from their death.My concern is the BLUE mob area.
For a lot of EQ1 the sweet spot for exping was quickly burning through DARK BLUE mobs. The incentive for fighting YELLOWs just didn't out weight the spell resists, higher hit points, and more AC that the higher level mobs brought to the table.
Another problem arose when people figured out how to stun lock large groups of LIGHT BLUE mobs and burn them down with AoE spells. This practice could be dangerous but once you got it down it became the easiest way to level up.
I hope that in Pantheon it won't be practical to just grind out easy mobs to max level. I'd really like to be incentivized with not just loot but also better exp for going into more dangerous areas.
This also makes me think about raid exp and how it should be better than it was in EQ1 and Vanguard... IMO raiding should be a valid way to gain exp.
Given a choice what path would you take; Grind out easy mobs to max level... or risk it all and ride the highs and lows of the cutting edge content ?
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
You are correct for White, Yellow, and Red. Blue, LB, Green, and Gray were level scaled off your level, it wasn't hardcoded. An example, a mob lvl 46 could still be light blue at lvl 60, which is a 14 level gap, but if you were lvl 30 conning something level 16, it would be likely gray, maybe green.
The EXP did scale with difficulty, Yellow/Red gave considerably more exp, but as you said, the exp difference wasn't worth the effort compared to dark blue mobs.
I think the system was fine overall, no complaints.
-3000 on level scaling. I hated in ESO. It resulted in feeling like you were getting nowhere. You reach level 50 and the level 1 rats are only slightly less challenging, mostly due gear. Then the real "leveling" starts with Champion points and finally you feel like you are gaining some ground in relation to mobs. There were other things that made ESO playable for a while, but that level scaling experience was painful.
vjek said:Personally, I'd prefer Pantheon use this:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/elder-scrolls-onlines-level-scaling-is-what-more-mmos-need
To keep all zones relevant / useful. Or some mechanic that provides the same thing, optionally / effectively.
Please no.
Simply make it easy to scale down to a previous level. Especially to mentor or some such. But, I'd be fine with just being able to select a level I'd previously had and go around and hunt at that level. If testing shows that scaling kind of results in one being slightly over powered for that level, lower the experience, etc. when scaled down.
vjek said:Personally, I'd prefer Pantheon use this:
http://www.usgamer.net/articles/elder-scrolls-onlines-level-scaling-is-what-more-mmos-need
To keep all zones relevant / useful. Or some mechanic that provides the same thing, optionally / effectively.
This is the absolute best way to kill the game to me. This would make it a hyper casual adventure game and kill almost all sense of progression/the journey of character growth in a living world.
Not only that, but it destroys the sense of character in the mobs. Mobs should feel like creatures that have been living in that world for a period of time and have developed an amount of strength, based on what it is. It wouldn't make sense for that creature's strength to suddenly and dramatically fluctuate. Can you imagine there theoretically being a field mouse that's higher level (and therefore more powerful) than a hill giant? Then it just seems like a robot that's programmed to accomodate you. Level scaling screams 'themepark that panders to your every need.' It should require a certain amount of player knowledge to encounter a mob and think "okay I know from experience that this goblin warlock has X armor class and X resistances, so to counter it, I need to..." or whatever the case may be. Level scaling completely removes this fun aspect of the game. Plus, as you said, if all the zones are basically the same, the world will quickly become boring.
This has been suggested before and fortunately, VR shows no signs of going this route, so it's nothing to worry about. Currently everything is set up with more fixed levels. There are other ways (such as Mentoring and Progeny) that accomplish the same goal of keeping content relevant, without undermining foundational aspects that make the game fun.
Ainadak said:This got me thinking and it might be fun to mix the con system with the progeny system. If you're a 2nd generation bad***, heir to a legend of Terminus, then piddling green-con mobs are beneath you and should not yield experience. As you move along to 6th-7th generation, then your family's reputation demands that only the strongest challengers be sought out. Might be fun if heirs to long family lines were traveling to the far reaches of the world to find worthy foes to take down.
I love this idea.
Each time you restart using the progeny system there might be 1 less lvl of mob that earns exp. So If Green mobs are normally up to 9 lvls lower, on your second play through a mob 9 lvls lower would be Grey and award no exp. 3rd play through a mob 8 lvls lower would be grey etc.
It seems like a nice way to increase the time it takes to lvl, and force a minimum challenge requirement, over the long run.
I would be down with that idea from Ainadak, for sure. For me, I really hope to see progeny be a very important feature, one that the majority of players feel the need to utilize, and many times over at that. It would be a great way to keep all zones relevant, populated, and full of activity. Adding another layer of challenge to the leveling curve for those rerolling through progeny would just make the whole concept sweeter. Just my opinion ... I am a big fan of long term progression where small incremental upgrades can be achieved, similar to how AA systems work. Whether or not progeny ends up becoming something like that remains to be seen.
philo said:Ainadak said:This got me thinking and it might be fun to mix the con system with the progeny system. If you're a 2nd generation bad***, heir to a legend of Terminus, then piddling green-con mobs are beneath you and should not yield experience. As you move along to 6th-7th generation, then your family's reputation demands that only the strongest challengers be sought out. Might be fun if heirs to long family lines were traveling to the far reaches of the world to find worthy foes to take down.
I love this idea.
Each time you restart using the progeny system there might be 1 less lvl of mob that earns exp. So If Green mobs are normally up to 9 lvls lower, on your second play through a mob 9 lvls lower would be Grey and award no exp. 3rd play through a mob 8 lvls lower would be grey etc.
It seems like a nice way to increase the time it takes to lvl, and force a minimum challenge requirement, over the long run.
Eh, I'm not so sure making it harder to level for progeny would be the way to go...especially each subsequent generation. In fact I think the opposite would hold true and each would level slightly faster than the last because at that point you've already put in hundreds if not thousands of hours to the leveling process. From a "lore" standpoint I'd argue that each generation following the first is coming into the world more knowledgable, experienced, and all around prepared based on their "parent" character & family tree.
I am of the opiion that the fewer colors/choices when "Conning" a mob the better. I would want something like this:
Red = A mob that is 7 or more levels higher than you.
Blue = A mob is from 3 levels lower than you to 6 leels higher than you. (Gives a more important role for the perception system)
Green = A mob is more than 3 levels below you.
The Red mobs would give a lot of XP and challenge, the blue mobs would provide a challange and XP equal to you and then Green would give little or no experience. I am a fan of the simplistic approach.
Iksar said:philo said:Ainadak said:This got me thinking and it might be fun to mix the con system with the progeny system. If you're a 2nd generation bad***, heir to a legend of Terminus, then piddling green-con mobs are beneath you and should not yield experience. As you move along to 6th-7th generation, then your family's reputation demands that only the strongest challengers be sought out. Might be fun if heirs to long family lines were traveling to the far reaches of the world to find worthy foes to take down.
I love this idea.
Each time you restart using the progeny system there might be 1 less lvl of mob that earns exp. So If Green mobs are normally up to 9 lvls lower, on your second play through a mob 9 lvls lower would be Grey and award no exp. 3rd play through a mob 8 lvls lower would be grey etc.
It seems like a nice way to increase the time it takes to lvl, and force a minimum challenge requirement, over the long run.
Eh, I'm not so sure making it harder to level for progeny would be the way to go...especially each subsequent generation. In fact I think the opposite would hold true and each would level slightly faster than the last because at that point you've already put in hundreds if not thousands of hours to the leveling process. From a "lore" standpoint I'd argue that each generation following the first is coming into the world more knowledgable, experienced, and all around prepared based on their "parent" character & family tree.
I feel like subsequent plays through would be easier simply because of the players knowledge of the game. Removing the lowest lvl of exp available from a mob wouldn't change that. It would still be easier until many multiple plays through. People don't tend to kill those "lowest mobs possible" for exp anyway.
My thought is that it would be good if leveling slowly got more difficult as time progresses. Most games become trivial after awhile.
Of course, the progeny system is optional. There might be a point where leveling becomes to much of a hinderance and the player chooses not to replay...that would be after many multiple plays through with 1 character as mentioned above. There will be people who choose not to replay through even once because they don't like leveling.
We know the character will be able to retain some sort of benefit from the previous play through. That is the "lore" part of it where the player character is enhanced based on their previous run. The world itself doesn't have anything to do with the family tree. If there was a way to balance out the leveling curve over the long run that seems like a positive. Otherwise you just have people powerleveling in the most optimal places over and over again to gain progeny rewards. (you will still have some of that but this idea would slow that situation).
Iksar said:philo said:Ainadak said:This got me thinking and it might be fun to mix the con system with the progeny system. If you're a 2nd generation bad***, heir to a legend of Terminus, then piddling green-con mobs are beneath you and should not yield experience. As you move along to 6th-7th generation, then your family's reputation demands that only the strongest challengers be sought out. Might be fun if heirs to long family lines were traveling to the far reaches of the world to find worthy foes to take down.
I love this idea.
Each time you restart using the progeny system there might be 1 less lvl of mob that earns exp. So If Green mobs are normally up to 9 lvls lower, on your second play through a mob 9 lvls lower would be Grey and award no exp. 3rd play through a mob 8 lvls lower would be grey etc.
It seems like a nice way to increase the time it takes to lvl, and force a minimum challenge requirement, over the long run.
Eh, I'm not so sure making it harder to level for progeny would be the way to go...especially each subsequent generation. In fact I think the opposite would hold true and each would level slightly faster than the last because at that point you've already put in hundreds if not thousands of hours to the leveling process. From a "lore" standpoint I'd argue that each generation following the first is coming into the world more knowledgable, experienced, and all around prepared based on their "parent" character & family tree.
I look at things a little differently in regards to how the lore aspect could work. I agree that the characters would be coming into the world more "knowledgeable, experienced, and prepared" and in saying such, think "Diminishing Returns" should have an impact on generational XP similar to how it works with traditional levels. The higher your level (or generation), the more experienced you are, and the harder it is to continue advancing. The same could be said about your generation. It's probable that characters would still "level faster" due to being slightly yet noticeably stronger than their parent character. Another lore angle to consider ... if someone is a 7th generation character, wouldn't it make sense that the definition of "trivial" would be considered differently compared to a new character, because of how seasoned they are?