Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Pre-Alpha/Alpha period

    • 1468 posts
    September 19, 2017 7:30 AM PDT

    ZennExile said:

    Rivacom said:

    Vaad said:

    OtakuMegane said:

    Unless something has changed it's always been my understanding that alpha and beta are going to be closed testing periods and limited primarily to people who have selected a pledge that includes that access. And they are meant for more serious testing and feedback, not just an "early access" thing.

    This is what I am worried about come Pre-Alpha and Alpha (not so much in Beta). There can be issues with letting people buy into a game for pre-release access because there are going to be people that are going to treat this like a completed game and they may go off when something doesn't go their way or if it doesn't work correctly, or there isn't enough content to explore. That being said, I believe there is an NDA for both Alpha tests (maybe the Beta) that should help keep communication internal. Based off what I have experienced from monitoring these forums for the past few years is that for the most part the people are mature. Additionally, it seems like the VR team is putting significant effort to make sure that the critical systems are in the game and that there is enough content for these players to experience. (Entire continent of King's Reach and 40 levels.) Overall I am happy with how VR is handling this games development and cannot wait until I can play / help come Alpha.

     

     

    I think the situation here is quite the opposite.  Normally if this was a traditional alpha/beta,  you'd get random people playing with no real goal due to it just being a free game they can play.  With the pledges, you weed out all the players who are just in it for a free game or hype.  Instead you have people who are generally interested in playing and show that they are interested in the game by donating money to Pantheon's development.

    You also, however, invite the attention of those who are attempting to purchase inside information, and access, which they can use later as a means of advancing personal gains.  Like financial gains.  Which is something I have seen brought up everywhere from obscure live streams, to mainstream discussion boards.  People talk quite a bit about the financial benefits of being part of the early development process in an upcoming project.  Enough to suspect there is more to it than simply, conjecture.

    Hmm. If someone came up with a website sharing all the maps they had made would you bemoan them making a bit of money on the side from all the hard work they put into making them? I don't think making money off something is inheritently bad. It is people doing things like RMT that should be instantly banned. But if they are putting ads on a website with loads of hand drawn maps or whatever then I am cool with that.

    I'd be interested to hear VRs stance on this?

    • 220 posts
    September 19, 2017 8:05 AM PDT

    It is a fuzzy grey area.  Gains could be as trivial as content familiarity, or as complex as abusing a hidden exploit for profit to fund an underground ring of weaponized autism dealers, bent on world domination through the use of a clever botnet that borrows processing power from client machines playing mainstream online games in a global cryptocurrency mining opperation...

    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2017 8:34 AM PDT

    Syrenol said:

    ZennExile said:

    Aradune said:

    With Pantheon I can say that Pre-alpha+Alpha+Beta will equal a nice, long period during which we will tune, take feedback, tweak, enhance what needs to be made better and yank anything that seemed like a great idea but when exposed to real players just doesn't pan out.

    I wonder how you feel about what makes a real player that paid for the privilege to give feedback, more important than other real players, that don't. 

     

     

    I could be wrong, but it seems to me the term "real players" from Aradune just meant people in general. There didn't seem to be any intent there to suggest that people whom didn't pay for early access are any less important. The fact is that feedback has to start somewhere and the first people in get to give the first feedback.

    Other replies in this thread seem to think that just because people have earlier access or that they are that more vocal will have more sway in what gets decided. I suppose that may be true but I would like to think that this experienced development team has a good feel for what is meaningful feedback.

    Also, others have pointed out how expensive the pledges are currently to have this vaunted priviledge to express yourself in a timely manner. The pledge that I bought awhile ago now costs quite a bit more. That means a lot of the people currently with early access didn't have to pay a fortune for this priviledge when they purchased it. So the average player will be quite well represented during the "Pre-alpha+Alpha+Beta" stage I'm sure.

    Well spoken, Syrenol & Rivacom (Sorry I haven't figured out how to multi-quote on here but +1 to Rivacom's post from last page).  I have seen people share an opinion or concern on here and then get attacked with comments like "Running around like Chicken Little, screaming the sky is falling and the dream is dead, won't accomplish anything worthwhile.  This game is crowd funded, not crowd dev'd and to be honest we are spoiled with the glimpse we have behind the scenes here and it's made the community here fractured, jaded and acting like entitled brats threatening to take their Tonka trucks and go home."  These comments may not have come from a "vocal loudmouth" but they did appear to be an attempt to drown out someone elses opinion, while also degrading them by making it out like they were a toddler throwing a temper tantrum.  In reality, they voiced their concern quite calmly.

    I pointed some of this out and was met with "Sorry onead, as the biggest, most vocal adgenda pusher here your defense of this means absolutely nothing as far as I'm concerned.  Beneath notice really, but since the ignore user feature doesn't work I'll acknowledge it here once to tell you to save your typing breath."  That same person then creates a post and insinuates that VIP's are the only ones being listened to, and that any non-VIP sub-forum should be shut down.  VR deserves way more credit in this regard ... this isn't a pay to win or buy your vision operation.  All feedback is appreciated and considered, regardless of your pledge level or post count.  

    I like seeing vocal people ... even if I don't agree with them.  I have learned a lot from other folks in the community simply because the dialogue remained open and the discussion remained civil.  When two people in a disagreement take the time and consideration to really understand the perspective of each other, it can be used as a great learning opportunity for both parties, and sometimes, you get lucky and find a happy medium.  It takes work though.  I am 100% confident that Pantheon will be the best MMO ever made ... mostly because of the amazing statue builders (Team VR) working tirelessly behind the scenes, but also because of their willingness to engage in meaningful dialogue with the community.

    If people truly felt their opinion or contributions didn't matter, why would they share them?  VR has made it very clear that community feedback is important to them.  Kilsin navigates the entire forum and shares topics of interest with the rest of the team ... what they do with all of that is up to them.  The idea that 3-10 "loud" people would have inherently more influence than the other 500+ people in pre-alpha is absurd.  You either leverage the platform and contribute, or you don't.  We are well beyond the stage where anything would be changed in a major way.  I expect the testing phase to be an opportunity where people can "rate" the effectiveness of certain features.

    Based on a large sample of data, VR can then determine if they need to speed things up, slow them down, adjust difficulty, drop-rate, etc.  It's not like 10 people can just band together and spam fast travel requests on the forum and be taken seriously.  Also, there are "phases" for testing.  Whatever adjustments are made in pre-alpha will then be rolled out to people in alpha, who then also have a chance to provide feedback.  It's more of an ongoing operation to tweak existing mechanics/features than someone being able to stomp their feet and get what they want because of their pledge or post count.  For those who want to provide feedback at the soonest point possible, and if this is truly important to you, I would recommend bumping up your pledge.  Just don't go into it thinking your feedback is any more important than the next guy ... this is just your way to support the game and it's development, and position yourself to provide feedback sooner than later.  If you are so excited about Pantheon that you literally just can't wait to get in there, test stuff, and tell them about your experience ... you would fit in quite well with the rest of the VIP community.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 19, 2017 9:47 AM PDT
    • 184 posts
    September 19, 2017 9:21 AM PDT

    Haha it's good to see all of passion and emotion here; just goes to show the excitement people have for Pantheon. But gents, if topics keep spiraling out of control/off topic every time a wild Brad appears, I'm not sure how often we can expect his feedback. Be grateful to be a part of an awesome community, and rest assured Kilsin and the like are reading every comment, taking every suggestion into account and ruling on it (if even for passing moment before dismissal). You want more of a say then you have an option to pay for it. No one is making you pay, and no one is telling you not to. VIPs deserve to be heard over the others, and at this juncture I'm sure they get a lot more attenion because there isn't any physical testing going on (I'm only a champion pledge for the record).

    With that said, devs don't care who we all are on an individual basis; they're too busy for that. They want to optimize this game in its entirety. They're going to listen to each and every one of us and read all of our alpha and beta feedback. This is a product; an investment that needs return. They dont discriminate who or where the good information/devlopment/testers come from, so long as it comes. This isn't the first time people have brought up logical arguments to simply be met with negative criticism and hate (I was one of the first to start creating respectful arguments on various threads to get more info on the newsletters and development in general, simply to be faced with a mass of negative comments from naysayers and blind followers, but since then VR has made large efforts to be more transparent with us and it was a rewarding experience to have my voice heard as a tester/supporter). I was backed up on these forums by people who felt the same way as me, the same way I will back you up now. There will always be naysayers; you can't let them disuade your ambition/direction for this game or let that negative influence on you turn into some form of disdain for VR or the dev team. Give good feedback, thoughts, testing practices, etc, and you will most definitely be heard.

    • 220 posts
    September 19, 2017 10:42 AM PDT

    Unfortunately observed human behavior often does not follow the script of human declaration.  This issue boils down to confirmation bias, and defense mechanisms.  This very notion of the "VIP" community is offensive on a fundemental level, to everyone else.  Because it creates a tribal division of us vs them.  And in all situations where this occurs, one side will always attempt to drown out and subvert the other.

    Tribal divisions and Confirmation Bias create echo chambers, and echo chambers block incoming information by masking the motivations and goals of a few behind the convictions of rest.  These echo chambers from outside will seem exclusionary and hostile, and from inside appear perfectly placid. 

    There is no nefarious motivation required to achieve an effective information barrier.  Inconvenient information can turn the sharpest mind against itself, especially in defense of the home team.  There are absolutely people who seek to take advantage of situations where tribal defense mechanisms can help establish a revenue stream.  The early development process in an MMORPG offers up just that.

     

    Edit: sorry if this exceeded your comfortable reading level, Hunk.


    This post was edited by ZennExile at September 19, 2017 10:55 AM PDT
    • 133 posts
    September 19, 2017 10:49 AM PDT
    Lmao good lord. Put down the Thesaurus. This is a video game man, we're not hitting college courses. This is really cringe worthy to read considering the topic that's being discussed. Just stop...
    • 769 posts
    September 19, 2017 11:21 AM PDT

    ZennExile said:

    Unfortunately observed human behavior often does not follow the script of human declaration.  This issue boils down to confirmation bias, and defense mechanisms.  This very notion of the "VIP" community is offensive on a fundemental level, to everyone else.  Because it creates a tribal division of us vs them.  And in all situations where this occurs, one side will always attempt to drown out and subvert the other.

    Tribal divisions and Confirmation Bias create echo chambers, and echo chambers block incoming information by masking the motivations and goals of a few behind the convictions of rest.  These echo chambers from outside will seem exclusionary and hostile, and from inside appear perfectly placid. 

    There is no nefarious motivation required to achieve an effective information barrier.  Inconvenient information can turn the sharpest mind against itself, especially in defense of the home team.  There are absolutely people who seek to take advantage of situations where tribal defense mechanisms can help establish a revenue stream.  The early development process in an MMORPG offers up just that.

     

    Edit: sorry if this exceeded your comfortable reading level, Hunk.

    Zenn, I see where you're coming from, but I don't think there is a better alternative out there. Coming from just a logistical and financial standpoint, VR absolutely has to give something away if they're expecting certain people to shell out larger sums of funny money to fund this project. A T-shirt and a mug with a scantily clad ogre on it isn't gonna do the trick. Some kind of status, however, will almost always get certain people's gaming jimmies to stand at attention, and I don't really fault them, or VR, for that. Heck, if I didn't struggle every month as it is to afford my harem and addiction to Beefaroni, I'd probably jump on the VIP bandwagon myself.

    As for the assumption that the voice of those who are VIP is louder and means more than the rest of us peasants? I would disagree. I've never felt, during my time on these forums, that my voice felt less than others simply by virtue of the contents of my wallet. If anything, my voice may be drowned out sometimes by a more vocal majorty (independent of wallet size), or by simple disagreements, or even by the superiority that many people might feel is determined by post count. But not by VIP status.

    That said, yes, a confirmation bias is certainly a possibility here by the part of the VR team - but it would be regardless of their business model. They have a vision, and sometimes that vision, when it doesn't align to the players, may affect their decision making process when determining which portion of the community to listen to; but that doesn't necessarily mean VIP status is the deciding factor there. It just means that the VR team is made up of humans, and all that the playing masses can do is trust that they'll exercise caution in that area, as well as continue to hire fresh outside perspective to shake their world up from time to time.

    And that just might be about all we can do, and I'm ok with that. I shan't absquatulate (aw, I know, big bad scawy thesauwus words) based on conjecture.

     

     


    This post was edited by Tralyan at September 19, 2017 11:34 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    September 19, 2017 11:26 AM PDT

    Zenn, your vernacular is impressive. To put it in another context though, and this is citing your last statement, it appears to be creating a tribal division based on language bias. I think most people want to communicate in easy to understand exchanges, whereas a lot of your wisdom comes off as some sort of riddle. I can understand your vocabulary but I have scratched my head a few times while reading your posts because it seems like I am reading a psychology book that explains how to take any discussion known to man, and then simplify it with a pie analogy.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 19, 2017 11:34 AM PDT
    • 3016 posts
    September 19, 2017 11:27 AM PDT

    Can't we all just get along?  *group hug*    I am sure any "influence" the VIPs may have is and will be watered down by the needs and the vision of the Devs,   we can make suggestions ..put forth our ideas, use our imaginations,  make comparisons about what was good in other games,  but in the end,  its the Devs and Aradune that have the final say about what fits and what doesn't fit.     That doesn't mean I am going to have a fit and take my tonka truck home. :P   I've been here since early 2014,  I am here for the duration...and I'll be happy with the final product (given what I've seen over the years re changes and improvements.)     We are all in this together....let's all act like it okay?   WE are the community..:)  VIP OR NOT.  One more thing...this isn't VR's first rodeo...and Kilsin sifts through the wheat and the chaff.   The team determines how this game is being developped...not any one of us.   :)

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at September 19, 2017 11:52 AM PDT
    • 133 posts
    September 19, 2017 11:38 AM PDT
    Zen the temptation to pull you into Discord just to see how quickly you lose your Thesaurus lingo while speaking would be comical in itself. The sheer fact that so far every post of yours reads like something from Reddit Iamverysmart, I wouldn't attempt to throw shade.
    • 220 posts
    September 19, 2017 11:42 AM PDT

    I think I love you Hunk.  Edit again: and I don't throw shade brotato, I just walk around like totality during an eclipse that won't end until I get your mother's phone number.

    And yeah, oneAD, I am most comfortable crotch deep in a Pie story.  The point though is to see if Brad wants to elaborate further.  Also, your move Kettle...

    Edit: I have never been called a Psychology book before.  I feel sort of flattered.


    This post was edited by ZennExile at September 19, 2017 11:59 AM PDT
    • 323 posts
    September 19, 2017 12:29 PM PDT

    Honestly a pledge to Pre-Alpha for some people is more an indication of their fanaticism than their deep financial wealth or privilege.  And the VIP distinction will fade into insignificance with time, so not really something to stress about.

    I feel like this thread is pretty solid proof that we are running out of things to talk about. Hey but on the positive side, you all managed to bait Zenn into confirming that he can write without using convoluted language and pie metaphors. So there's that!!! 

    • 220 posts
    September 19, 2017 1:03 PM PDT

    Pfft, whatever, I told a story that wasn't complex and difficult to follow, OR about Pie no less than 4 days ago.  You exagerate.


    This post was edited by ZennExile at September 19, 2017 1:14 PM PDT
    • 9115 posts
    September 19, 2017 4:48 PM PDT

    Folks, the thread topic is "Pre-Alpha/Alpha Period", please keep your posts on topic and take any personal discussions to PMs as per the forums guidelines.

    • 133 posts
    September 19, 2017 5:06 PM PDT
    Guilty, my apologies Kilsin.
    • 3237 posts
    September 20, 2017 5:53 AM PDT

    2 months pre-alpha, 4 months alpha, 6 months closed beta.  Then open beta as long as necessary until launch.  This is assuming a 1 year testing phase as a goal, but also leaves some wiggle room at the end with open beta.

    • 189 posts
    September 20, 2017 8:16 AM PDT

    I can feel myself getting impatient with the waiting. I'm starting to hate the word "soon", too. 

    Thank you guys for being so awesome about answering questions like this without keeping everything a secret. It's nice to know some of the details and not being completely blind waiting for this game.

    • 85 posts
    September 20, 2017 1:49 PM PDT

    This thread was hilarious to read, glad I stopped by!  I'm hoping the pre-alpha portion takes quite a while, as I'm seriously wanting to have the game fine-tuned as much as possible.  I plan on playing this game for as long as the servers are going so whatever time it takes to get as much right as possible, I'm on board with that.  

    • 287 posts
    September 24, 2017 3:13 PM PDT
    I expect beta to be one year but for pre alpha and alpha to each be an additional year seems long. I understand this is a small team though.
    • 323 posts
    September 24, 2017 3:30 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    2 months pre-alpha, 4 months alpha, 6 months closed beta.  Then open beta as long as necessary until launch.  This is assuming a 1 year testing phase as a goal, but also leaves some wiggle room at the end with open beta.

    I hope the segments are very different. Longer alphas and shorter betas. Also, I think one year from pre-alpha to open beta / launch is pretty optimistic. I don't see how we could be that close to launch (I'm assuming we're close to PA).  But hey I hope you're right about that :) 

    • 1399 posts
    September 24, 2017 5:34 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    2 months pre-alpha, 4 months alpha, 6 months closed beta.  Then open beta as long as necessary until launch.  This is assuming a 1 year testing phase as a goal, but also leaves some wiggle room at the end with open beta.

    Is there anyplace the Devs have talked about open beta?  Even in Brads post earlier in this thread he only mentions Beta.

    Aradune said:

    All I can say is this right now:  I feel strongly that one of the reasons EQ was successful was that we had a nice, long beta.  With Pantheon we don't use the term 'beta' in the same way, however.  It's more specific.  With Pantheon I can say that Pre-alpha+Alpha+Beta will equal a nice, long period during which we will tune, take feedback, tweak, enhance what needs to be made better and yank anything that seemed like a great idea but when exposed to real players just doesn't pan out.

     

    Never seen an offical mention of OPEN beta,  just beta.

    • 3237 posts
    September 25, 2017 7:43 AM PDT

    Sorry, the response I gave was just my best guess of what I think will happen.  I have no idea whether or not there will be phases for both closed and open beta.  Using both phases seems to be pretty standard in the industry though so I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen.  Using my guess as an example, though, it seems to fit the timeline that has been portrayed.  We'll see a solid year of testing between pre-alpha through beta.  If more testing is necessary, maybe each phase is extended a bit ... or maybe we see an open beta period added at the end which could last as long as necessary.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 25, 2017 7:44 AM PDT
    • 556 posts
    September 25, 2017 10:53 AM PDT

    Xilshale said: Just so long as pre-alpha/alpha don't end up being taken as three to ten vocal loudmouths spewing their specific wants (or personal demands because their own mind is made upon what the game has to be) over and over drowning out most other opinions, much like this forum devolves into quite often on topics, then all is good. Forum attendance doesn't mean a more valid opinion, nor does the level you could afford to dump into your pledge.

    These forums aren't and shouldn't be an expectation of what will be in pre alpha and alpha. Most people sit quiet here because of the fact that everything is complete speculation and arguing over it is futile. Once we are in game and can see/test things for ourselves a lot of people will become a lot more vocal.

    • 556 posts
    September 25, 2017 10:55 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    2 months pre-alpha, 4 months alpha, 6 months closed beta.  Then open beta as long as necessary until launch.  This is assuming a 1 year testing phase as a goal, but also leaves some wiggle room at the end with open beta.

    Alpha's will be much longer than that. Those time frames won't even give them time to make changes much less finish developing the rest of the content. More like 5-6 months pre alpha, 4-6 months alpha, 1 yr beta

    • 3237 posts
    September 25, 2017 11:10 AM PDT

    Enitzu said:

    oneADseven said:

    2 months pre-alpha, 4 months alpha, 6 months closed beta.  Then open beta as long as necessary until launch.  This is assuming a 1 year testing phase as a goal, but also leaves some wiggle room at the end with open beta.

    Alpha's will be much longer than that. Those time frames won't even give them time to make changes much less finish developing the rest of the content. More like 5-6 months pre alpha, 4-6 months alpha, 1 yr beta

    What are you basing that off of?  Here is a quote from Kilsin back in January:

    "Kilsin - 01/06/2017 Pre-Alpha is a stepping stone to helping us catch some glaring bugs/issues and helping us set up Alpha testing, it won't for a huge testing period but it will be a very important one, maybe a few weeks/month or two at max then into Alpha"

    I'm not saying things haven't changed, but based on that (which is the only statement I have seen with any definitive timeline for how long pre-alpha will last) I can't imagine pre-alpha lasting any longer than 2 months.  With what you are saying, it would seem that testing would take almost 2 years.  Aradune has hinted that he would like to be in testing for a full year.  Please see the second to last sentence in this article:

    https://www.frailage.com/index.php/131-aradune-ama

     

    There is also this from the FAQ:

    8.2.1 How long will you test Pantheon (alpha/beta) before launch?

    Ideally, we want to be in testing for a full year -- this approach helped launch past games in a solid, balanced way, and we want this for Pantheon as well.

     

    I understand none of this is set in stone, but do you have any recent information that supports your estimated timeline?  Thanks in advance.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at September 25, 2017 11:28 AM PDT