https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42394
Oh look 15$ buys all the ring assets you could possibly need right off the Unity store. I guess I didn't need a week. I just needed 15$. Nice meme though. You really showed me. And these are all objects. This is all the "hard work" you were talking about. Cost 15$.
Oh and here is like 60 more options for "Accesories":
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/search/page=1/sortby=popularity/query=category:42
I got a better meme for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsUW8JcnzZs
Why did you make me do this to you?
I would like visible small items.
But I would prefer that they would not have related stats
to maintain a certain freedom of expression,not making them a *must* for them stats
Simply because I might not like to wear a scarf,cloak,ring,bracelet or amulet for a particular character.
I have played games where equiping unequiping them was visible and I really liked it and thought it added to those extra details.And it is in the details.
I'd like those items more linked to prestige,a symbolic expression for the group(s) you represent/support.(but still your choice to wear that identity or not)
Just like how you'd wear a guild tabard
You could either wear a cloak of the order of the moon/sun ,2 opposing factions
and wearing those items would grant you special bonus with that faction
ZennExile said:https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42394
Oh look 15$ buys all the ring assets you could possibly need right off the Unity store. I guess I didn't need a week. I just needed 15$. Nice meme though. You really showed me. And these are all objects. This is all the "hard work" you were talking about. Cost 15$.
Oh and here is like 60 more options for "Accesories":
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/search/page=1/sortby=popularity/query=category:42
I got a better meme for you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsUW8JcnzZs
Why did you make me do this to you?
Those are just art assets on sale in a content store. I don't know why you are so excited. You can't use them in your tech demo per rule number 4.
DragonFist said:
4. All art must be created. No stock meshes. No stock textures.
Fluffy said:I would like visible small items.
But I would prefer that they would not have related statsto maintain a certain freedom of expression,not making them a *must* for them stats
Simply because I might not like to wear a scarf,cloak,ring,bracelet or amulet for a particular character.
I have played games where equiping unequiping them was visible and I really liked it and thought it added to those extra details.And it is in the details.I'd like those items more linked to prestige,a symbolic expression for the group(s) you represent/support.(but still your choice to wear that identity or not)
Just like how you'd wear a guild tabard
You could either wear a cloak of the order of the moon/sun ,2 opposing factions
and wearing those items would grant you special bonus with that faction
Maybe a toggle for visible accessory items? That is a hard call though. As much as you want to personalize, they also want your gear to make a statement about you. Even with a toggle though, you won't catch me in pants. I'm too much of a purist.
ZennExile said:https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42394
Oh look 15$ buys all the ring assets you could possibly need right off the Unity store. I guess I didn't need a week. I just needed 15$. Nice meme though. You really showed me. And these are all objects. This is all the "hard work" you were talking about. Cost 15$.
Oh and here is like 60 more options for "Accesories":
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/search/page=1/sortby=popularity/query=category:42
I don't see why 'The Awesomest Ring of Durpiness" has to have a different iteration for each class and race.
As I said in my post, creating the concept art (your number 4) for the above ring takes most likely longer than programming in the actual ring. Sure it won't take 1.5 seconds to put it in but I'm pretty positive once one ring is done the rest are trivial. Not trivial like taking 1.5 seconds but trivial as in you can do dozens in a day.
Durp said:I don't see why 'The Awesomest Ring of Durpiness" has to have a different iteration for each class and race.
As I said in my post, creating the concept art (your number 4) for the above ring takes most likely longer than programming in the actual ring. Sure it won't take 1.5 seconds to put it in but I'm pretty positive once one ring is done the rest are trivial. Not trivial like taking 1.5 seconds but trivial as in you can do dozens in a day.
The specific ring doesn't have to. But that ring has to fit in with any other armor set, which often do have various mess pieces that get merged. Spend some time, look up how these things get done in games that look good and have the levels of variation that RPGs have. This is part of what I am trying to get across. There are many factors that go into these systems. Sure, I could make a ring in Lightwave, Maya or Blender in a few minutes. If I want it to look really detailed, it will take a little longer on the UV textures and Normal Maps, baking, etc. But then there is the process of "the ring looks good on human theives in idle mode, but clips in different ways on other classes and animations. So you go through and adjust all that, for human thieves. But on human tank classes in plate, the ring is under the armor. So, we fix that. Then other animation issues with that, and so on down the races and and classes. You may luck out and it all works right away, but ask any developer how often that happens.
Then you get into testing and some guy playing a halfing shaman is wearing leather rather than chainmail gauntlets and the ring is floating to the side. And other issues not found by the dev team in internal testing. And we aren't just talking about rings, belts and necklaces were mentioned. The way many games do it, the belt would need to be a new mesh for various belt "types".
These are all just examples and the team might find ways to minimize all this by building a robust character model system. Or the team could decide that it isn't worth the effort compared with the huge amount of other systems to put in place. Or they'll just buy a $15 ring set from the cash shop and hope that end user is happy with however it looks placed somewhere in the vacinity of the fingers when attached to the animation skeleton. I doubt it, but I gues it could happen. The point is that software development is a complex thing with many systems that all affect each other and what looks like a simple thing often isn't.
But I don't know what VR will decide in terms of their final character models or itemization systems. And I don't even really have a preference, as longs as it works, looks good and fits with a smooth interface. But I do know that it is a gross over simplification to state that implementing visible jewelry and belts is trivial from a development standpoint. And I know, as a developer myself, that maintaining customer expectations is important.
I cannot tell you how many times I've gotten "Can't you just put a checkbox on the page that will handle that? Takes like 5 seconds to put a checkbox there." I won't go into all the details but the short version is "Yes, placing the checkbox is a drag and drop action that literally takes seconds. All the other functionality and how that functionality affects functionality already in place from the checkbox down through other layers to the database and back again and in many areas that will need investigating and testing, is a whole other matter." And somehow, the client has to come to terms with that checkbox may be a $50 investment or a $5000 investment or even a $25,000 investment in rare cases, depending on all that and will have to decide with he wants to spend the money or not based not only on the cost but also the need. There really is a reason that even top tier games often avoid the number of variations in character customization. The Witcher Series (and especially the Witcher 3) achieved such wonderful character visuals largely due to the fact that there are only two playable characters and only one of those can even change its visible armor. The variations are then limited. Skyrim, on the other hand pulled off a lot of variation. And it looks rather good, but close examination will show up clipping and other visual issues. And I guarantee that it had a lot more funding than Pantheon is operating on. And how many other systems are way more important than maintaining a large number of visible slots? I don't know. But ALL these things factor in.
Evoras said:Conclusion:
I suspect there will be representation of many items in game. Many will be more generic (low level gear) while some will be unique in look (more powerful etc). However, It is unlikely to be a 1:1 representation, particularly of smaller items (compared to, say, cloaks) for a while.
Evoras, hope this does include a unique look for the cat in his backpack...
Your post is right on. The most important thing is that people can see how badass you are by how you look visually in-game (and then can likely inspect, given consent, to get even more info on the items worn). This is to inspire younger players to keep kicking butt and achieve similar success after working hard at it.
Now where to go beyond that, once we have that achieved (and it's happening more and more every day). More details, like a ruby ring showing up on a hand, etc., really depends on time and resources (and how intelligent we are with those resources, getting as much bang for our buck as we can). It's not a matter of 'can we do it', but rather resource (and by that I mean people, time, and money) management.
I think we'll launch with the minspec above, and probably more. And obviously we want the character in-game to reflect what's actually worn in inventory as much as possible. But let's get closer to release before I commit to anything beyond that or with more specificity. I do think it's still a reality, at least for some time, that, given the thousands (if not tens of thousands) of items that will be in Pantheon, even if we get closer to this ideal than we have in the past, it still won't be close to 1:1.
Just keeping things honest :) Part of my job is to manage expectations, get people excited, but not over-hype, and certainly to under-promise and over-deliver :)
Aradune said:Evoras said:Conclusion:
I suspect there will be representation of many items in game. Many will be more generic (low level gear) while some will be unique in look (more powerful etc). However, It is unlikely to be a 1:1 representation, particularly of smaller items (compared to, say, cloaks) for a while.
Evoras, hope this does include a unique look for the cat in his backpack...
Your post is right on. The most important thing is that people can see how badass you are by how you look visually in-game (and then can likely inspect, given consent, to get even more info on the items worn). This is to inspire younger players to keep kicking butt and achieve similar success after working hard at it.
Now where to go beyond that, once we have that achieved (and it's happening more and more every day). More details, like a ruby ring showing up on a hand, etc., really depends on time and resources (and how intelligent we are with those resources, getting as much bang for our buck as we can). It's not a matter of 'can we do it', but rather resource (and by that I mean people, time, and money) management.
I think we'll launch with the minspec above, and probably more. And obviously we want the character in-game to reflect what's actually worn in inventory as much as possible. But let's get closer to release before I commit to anything beyond that or with more specificity. I do think it's still a reality, at least for some time, that, given the thousands (if not tens of thousands) of items that will be in Pantheon, even if we get closer to this ideal than we have in the past, it still won't be close to 1:1.
Just keeping things honest :) Part of my job is to manage expectations, get people excited, but not over-hype, and certainly to under-promise and over-deliver :)
Jacasta said:Kilsin said:Thread cleaned up again. Let's keep the discussion civil please, there is no point to arguing over opinions or personally attacking other community members.
Didn't know upon creating such a simple thread would create so much backlash in the comments...
Yeah, it is luck of the draw with some topics and depends on peoples experience levels with that topic and passion for the said topic but I think most people come from a good place and just get carried away in the motion of discussing things they are passionate about, I see it in quite a few threads.
Yeah, for about 2 years, this sort of pattern has been repeating. I wish there were some way to take the fuel out of the fire and ecourage people to offer positive contributions rather than negative. So this would stop happening, over, and over again. All it takes is a few people trying to "prove ideas wrong" to sour the entire community. Sure would be nice to have a conversation without having to worry about that sort of thing.
Kilsin said:Jacasta said:Kilsin said:Thread cleaned up again. Let's keep the discussion civil please, there is no point to arguing over opinions or personally attacking other community members.
Didn't know upon creating such a simple thread would create so much backlash in the comments...
@Jacasta:
Yeah, it is luck of the draw with some topics and depends on peoples experience levels with that topic and passion for the said topic but I think most people come from a good place and just get carried away in the motion of discussing things they are passionate about, I see it in quite a few threads.
Aradune said:The most important thing is that people can see how badass you are by how you look visually in-game (and then can likely inspect, given consent, to get even more info on the items worn). This is to inspire younger players to keep kicking butt and achieve similar success after working hard at it.
Now where to go beyond that, once we have that achieved (and it's happening more and more every day). More details, like a ruby ring showing up on a hand, etc., really depends on time and resources (and how intelligent we are with those resources, getting as much bang for our buck as we can). It's not a matter of 'can we do it', but rather resource (and by that I mean people, time, and money) management.
@Kilsin:
And to Kilsin, I don't envy your job man. I don't think I could do it. While I don't think I've "done anything wrong" per se, I'm honestly sorry for making your job harder. I have, at least, tried to keep it civil. I may not have been as successful as I wished to be.
DragonFist said:Kilsin said:Jacasta said:Kilsin said:Thread cleaned up again. Let's keep the discussion civil please, there is no point to arguing over opinions or personally attacking other community members.
Didn't know upon creating such a simple thread would create so much backlash in the comments...
@Jacasta:
Yeah, it is luck of the draw with some topics and depends on peoples experience levels with that topic and passion for the said topic but I think most people come from a good place and just get carried away in the motion of discussing things they are passionate about, I see it in quite a few threads.
I'm sorry for my contribution to the backlash. For my part, I've just been trying to get across this part of what Brad(Aradune) stated (albeit, without knowing specifics of what VR has planned):Aradune said:The most important thing is that people can see how badass you are by how you look visually in-game (and then can likely inspect, given consent, to get even more info on the items worn). This is to inspire younger players to keep kicking butt and achieve similar success after working hard at it.
Now where to go beyond that, once we have that achieved (and it's happening more and more every day). More details, like a ruby ring showing up on a hand, etc., really depends on time and resources (and how intelligent we are with those resources, getting as much bang for our buck as we can). It's not a matter of 'can we do it', but rather resource (and by that I mean people, time, and money) management.
I do get passionate about the making nothing of the work of artists and developers. But I recognize that if I left it at first post or two, it wouldn't have gotten as long-winded at the very minimum.
But hey, ya got a dev answer to your question and that ain't nothing.
@Kilsin:
And to Kilsin, I don't envy your job man. I don't think I could do it. While I don't think I've "done anything wrong" per se, I'm honestly sorry for making your job harder. I have, at least, tried to keep it civil. I may not have been as successful as I wished to be.
I appreciate the comment man and am just lucky I love what I do and have such an awesome community to manage otherwise I may have already gone insane! haha :P
I remember back in the day..getting an item like a necklace or a ring for the first time for my high elf wizard, and after a couple tries removing and installing..say a special ring, noticing that it doesn't show on my character. Silly thing I know, but is it possible these days with the tech we have to do that? Sometimes small things matter, to the individual. And yes I would love a ruby ring for my character. lol
Cana
CanadinaXegony said:I remember back in the day..getting an item like a necklace or a ring for the first time for my high elf wizard, and after a couple tries removing and installing..say a special ring, noticing that it doesn't show on my character. Silly thing I know, but is it possible these days with the tech we have to do that? Sometimes small things matter, to the individual. And yes I would love a ruby ring for my character. lol
Cana
DragonFist said:ZennExile said:https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42394
Oh look 15$ buys all the ring assets you could possibly need right off the Unity store. I guess I didn't need a week. I just needed 15$. Nice meme though. You really showed me. And these are all objects. This is all the "hard work" you were talking about. Cost 15$.
Oh and here is like 60 more options for "Accesories":
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/search/page=1/sortby=popularity/query=category:42
You know, the more I think about it, the fact that you posted this and thought that it was in any way apropo to this discussion, proves that you do not know what is actually involved in creating system like this. There is simply is no way that anyone that understands the problem would post links to 3D models in a content store as a solution to the original post or the systems under discussion. You also seem to think that because an artist is selling their products to a mass market at $15 each, that it wasn't work for him or her. You are selling those artists short. But still, a 3D mesh with textures isn't even a system like the one being discuss, nevermind fully implemented into a working game and balanced out for various system specs. Not only do you think it is, you think Jim Carry "Damn I'm good" video summed up your victory dance. So, short of an actual link to a working demo created by you, I'm going to consider this debate done and settled. Thank you for clearing that up.
I'll add somewhat boldly perhaps that we will continue to use store bought assets where it makes sense. Often we can dload the mesh and re-texture it. We are in an era now where it's foolish and a waste of resources to have your 3d modelers modeling simple stuff (tables, chairs, etc.). This means buy and probably re-skin the real basic stuff, freeing up our own artists to work on architecture and such specific to Pantheon or even iconic (for example, our concept artists are working on the specific architecture, symbology, and general style of the various playable races right now (amongst other things)).
DragonFist said:CanadinaXegony said:I remember back in the day..getting an item like a necklace or a ring for the first time for my high elf wizard, and after a couple tries removing and installing..say a special ring, noticing that it doesn't show on my character. Silly thing I know, but is it possible these days with the tech we have to do that? Sometimes small things matter, to the individual. And yes I would love a ruby ring for my character. lol
Cana
Yes, it is definitely possible. It is all about the balancing of resources.
Very true, and unfortunately I can't make specific promises yet about how we are balancing those resources. Appreciate all you guys for being so patient -- best community ever, and I mean that.
Kilsin said:DragonFist said:Kilsin said:Jacasta said:Kilsin said:Thread cleaned up again. Let's keep the discussion civil please, there is no point to arguing over opinions or personally attacking other community members.
Didn't know upon creating such a simple thread would create so much backlash in the comments...
@Jacasta:
Yeah, it is luck of the draw with some topics and depends on peoples experience levels with that topic and passion for the said topic but I think most people come from a good place and just get carried away in the motion of discussing things they are passionate about, I see it in quite a few threads.
I'm sorry for my contribution to the backlash. For my part, I've just been trying to get across this part of what Brad(Aradune) stated (albeit, without knowing specifics of what VR has planned):Aradune said:The most important thing is that people can see how badass you are by how you look visually in-game (and then can likely inspect, given consent, to get even more info on the items worn). This is to inspire younger players to keep kicking butt and achieve similar success after working hard at it.
Now where to go beyond that, once we have that achieved (and it's happening more and more every day). More details, like a ruby ring showing up on a hand, etc., really depends on time and resources (and how intelligent we are with those resources, getting as much bang for our buck as we can). It's not a matter of 'can we do it', but rather resource (and by that I mean people, time, and money) management.
I do get passionate about the making nothing of the work of artists and developers. But I recognize that if I left it at first post or two, it wouldn't have gotten as long-winded at the very minimum.
But hey, ya got a dev answer to your question and that ain't nothing.
@Kilsin:
And to Kilsin, I don't envy your job man. I don't think I could do it. While I don't think I've "done anything wrong" per se, I'm honestly sorry for making your job harder. I have, at least, tried to keep it civil. I may not have been as successful as I wished to be.I appreciate the comment man and am just lucky I love what I do and have such an awesome community to manage otherwise I may have already gone insane! haha :P
Actually insanity can really help a moderator, especially after launch and we nerf something :)
Aradune said:DragonFist said:ZennExile said:https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/42394
Oh look 15$ buys all the ring assets you could possibly need right off the Unity store. I guess I didn't need a week. I just needed 15$. Nice meme though. You really showed me. And these are all objects. This is all the "hard work" you were talking about. Cost 15$.
Oh and here is like 60 more options for "Accesories":
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/search/page=1/sortby=popularity/query=category:42
You know, the more I think about it, the fact that you posted this and thought that it was in any way apropo to this discussion, proves that you do not know what is actually involved in creating system like this. There is simply is no way that anyone that understands the problem would post links to 3D models in a content store as a solution to the original post or the systems under discussion. You also seem to think that because an artist is selling their products to a mass market at $15 each, that it wasn't work for him or her. You are selling those artists short. But still, a 3D mesh with textures isn't even a system like the one being discuss, nevermind fully implemented into a working game and balanced out for various system specs. Not only do you think it is, you think Jim Carry "Damn I'm good" video summed up your victory dance. So, short of an actual link to a working demo created by you, I'm going to consider this debate done and settled. Thank you for clearing that up.I'll add somewhat boldly perhaps that we will continue to use store bought assets where it makes sense. Often we can dload the mesh and re-texture it. We are in an era now where it's foolish and a waste of resources to have your 3d modelers modeling simple stuff (tables, chairs, etc.). This means buy and probably re-skin the real basic stuff, freeing up our own artists to work on architecture and such specific to Pantheon or even iconic (for example, our concept artists are working on the specific architecture, symbology, and general style of the various playable races right now (amongst other things)).
And I'm not surprised by that. My whole objection to this particular line in this thread was the "it is trivial to implement visible armor like rings". I'm fully aware that there are way more tools today than the days of running EQ1 off of flat files. And I'm aware that one can apply color variables to parts of a mesh, etc., etc. But there are many other aspects of having a system like this work well and look good and telling the community that it is trivial doesn't set proper expectations. And then one gets "How come we don't have better looking visible Ruby Rings? Come on, it trivial to implement."
Anyhow, not to argue the usefulness of stock art. Of course, you'd use them. It would be silly not to. But but doing so doesn't mean that you've magically created visible armor slots either.