Forums » Off-Topic and Casual Chatter

MMO DESIGN SERIES- Uncharted waters

    • 178 posts
    August 14, 2017 11:59 AM PDT

    uncharted waters:
    this topic is for all kind of ideas that you usually dont find in average MMOs, and they can be risky to implement because of player backlash, but if properly implemented can increase the enjoiment of the game world.


    no "dump" stats,

    every character stat is good for almost everybody:
    the min-max situation where a fighter can completly dump inteligence wisdom and charisma and mage can completely dump strength and dexterity is unhealthy.
    and while the players will always try to maximize the effectiveness of their character, they should have concequence for dumping a certain stat.
    for example:

    strength: is for physical damage and also for physical CC resistance. (weak characters will be stunned/snared for longer duration) also for encumberance if implemented.
    endurance/constitution: is for health pool and poison/disease resistance.
    intelligence: is for all resource pools not only mana and also for all critical damage multipliers (physical, magical and healing).
    agility/dexterity: evade/dodge and also for all critical chance rolls (physical, magical and healing).
    will: all resources regeneration not only mana and magical CC resistance (weak willed characters will be enchanted/mesmerised for longer duration)

    this way crit rogues will want to find a middle ground between int and dexterity for critical damage and critical chance increase to be effective
    but will be limited to bursts because their low "will" will hamper their resource regenration.
    Tanks will have to spread their attribute points for "will" stat and not only classical str+con in order to have better rage generation and avoid CC wipes on fear /enchant etc


    no XP on quest completions,

    only reputation and special items (non combat or really special).
    all xp gains are from mob kills, quests are just guidance for the area, lore , reputation or all together.
    some quests will provide consumables (potions or food) as reward.
    gearing through quests dont make any sense at all, why would a farmer have three types of armor chests for you to choose as reward?
    if he has them either he can use them or he would have sold them to invest in his farm.
    he can reward you with food and potions that he grow/make at his farm, etc.
    a blacksmith for example can reward you with sharpening stones or skeleton keys, only in very rare occasions he will make you a weapon, but this will happen only if you bring him the required materials as part of the quest.


    durability:

    to keep the economy vibrant and healthy items should be removed from the world at a steady pace.
    most of the MMOs use "bound" items which are removed from the world when the character outlevel the item or get a better item.
    if the majority of the items are not bound you must have a mechanism that will remove these items from the game, this mechanism is durability.
    each item has durability points, according to item category and material (steel mallet will have more durabiliy than silk shirt, admantite sword will have more durability than steel sword)
    each time the item deteriorate under a certain percentage threshold the item effectiveness is reduced. (for example first threshold is 50% durability which reduce the item effectiveness by 10%, second threshold is 10% durability which reduce the item effectiveness by 25%)
    when you repair the item at a blacksmith, the item is repaired but the maximum durability is reduced by 1-5 points.
    when the item reach 0 durability the item is destroyed forever and cannot be repaired at the blacksmith.
    when the item is used so much that the maximal durability is so low that a dozen of fights push the item durability over the threshold, they player will ditch the item for a newer one.


    Traps in dungeons, (and maybe wilderness also)
    randomly placed with various effects: raw damage, poison, mana drain, slow, teleport to the begining of the map, spawning mobs etc.
    in games it is hard to place traps because either they are too harsh/frustrating like instakill or the players ignore them completely because they can outheal the trap damage.
    traps should be a major player consideration, but setting off a trap should not wipe/kill the party.
    mana drain is a very good effect, especially if the trap comes with an ambush.
    "slow poison" gas is also very efficient since the room is full with gas cleansing the poison will just reapply it one second after.
    teleport to the entrance of the dungeon can convince even the most stubborn players that spending time searching for the traps is better than running from the start over and over again.


    locked chests: random placement in dungeons and lairs that you need thief (with open locks) or mage (with knock) to open.


    treasure maps: treasure maps as rare drop item which leads to random spot in the world, but the spot is not empty it will have a mob camp or even a mini-boss. (without the map you can't dig in the place).


    real trainers:
    when you reach the xp to level up, you dont level up. and you dont get any new XP, you will have to go to trainer and train the level not only buy skills, also you will be sent for a quest before you can level up (maybe each 5th level and not every level)
    not every city will have all trainers, for example warrior culture city will not have high level magical trainers and vice versa. top level trainers should be found in secluded areas or even dungeons.
    same with profession trainers.


    day/night cycle:

    day and night cycle that affect not only lighting but mob types and NPC behaviour.

    1.5 hour day followed by 15 minute dusk followed by 45 minute night followed by 15 minute dawn. total 2 hours 45 minutes from sunrise to sunrise,
    8 full ingame cycles per 24 hour and one overlapping in order to create difference in the long term.
    so if somebody can play only two hours from 21:00 to 22:00 he will still get full days or full nights overtime because the time will shift.


    in the city the regular service NPCs like crafting trainers and vendors will not be availibe at night, but the inns and the pubs will be open at night, the thieves guild and the necromancers den will be open only at night.
    dusk and dawn are the crossover period that you can't enter the premise but you will not be kicked from it.
    for example you entered the thieves guild just before dawn, you have the full dawn duration to be there untill you get kicked, but another player will not be able to enter the thieves guild.

    if there is a cemetery in the city it should have some ghosts at night.

    the wilderness monsters also change between day and night, at night nocturnal predators who are stronger than their daylight counterparts go out of their lairs like dire wolves instead of wolves , dire bears instead of bears,
    giant bats and giant spiders should be nocturnal (i never understood giant bats during the daylight or any reptiles in snow in every MMO).

    more undead and horrors than regular mobs, generally the night is more dangerous than a day and have stronger mobs.
    most of the orcs and other evil humanoids will also be sleeping at night, only the elite night scouts will be around.

    dusk and dawn are the periods when the mobs will still roam but will not respawn if killed. at the nightfall the roaming daylight mobs will despawn and night types will start spawning instead.


    no pushback/interrupt resistance.

    pushback resistance is when you casting or channeling spell and the mob hit you and you still keep casting the spell.
    pushback resistance have to go, the pushback resistance is for whiny solo players who want to "pewpew" everything by themselves,
    it is the first step that brought the MMO downfall with simplifying everything and homegenizing all the roles, eventually killing the grouping.

    the melee dps had strong single target damage but vulnerable to kiting, ranged physical dps had fast single target damage and could kite but were not very efficient otherwise. but both could somewhat solo.
    the mages used to have high ranged AOE damage to quickly take out CCed groups but were helpless against close melee enemies, so they whined to get pushback resistance so they could solo, and they got it, so next melee classes started to whine why the mages have so much uninteruptable damage we need to compare our damage to the mages, its only fair.
    and it was done. so all the damage classes got so strong the mobs hp had to get buffed.
    so the tanks whined that they dont do enough damage to kill the mobs and they were right, so their damage got buffed, and the healers joined in, if the mages get pushback resistance we also must have the ability to chain heal ourselves because otherwise we cant survive.
    and the healers became gods, so devs started to invent atrocities for healers like penalty for self heals which made no sense at all.

    so now we are at the situation where all roles are the same, same strengths and no weaknesses. just the animation is different and nobody needs each other.

    all casters (mages/healers/enchanters), when casting or channeling a spell, should be interrupted immediately on any damage wasting the mana.
    magic is a powerfull tool but it has a weakness: close range melee. you cant go alone as a mage, you need a friend a melee that will peel the enemies from you so you can nuke their face.
    since this supposed to be a group oriented game, casters should not have any pushback resistance they shouldnt take the beating, they are the artillery battery that rains the enemy lines with fire but dont stand a chance to a small enemy commando unit.

    spells interrupted on damage with absolutely no option for pushback resistance even on endgame is important because this is the core of the group play.

    MAKE ROLES GREAT AGAIN!

    • 769 posts
    August 14, 2017 12:39 PM PDT

    MyNegation said:


    no "dump" stats,

    every character stat is good for almost everybody:
    the min-max situation where a fighter can completly dump inteligence wisdom and charisma and mage can completely dump strength and dexterity is unhealthy.
    and while the players will always try to maximize the effectiveness of their character, they should have concequence for dumping a certain stat.
    for example:

    strength: is for physical damage and also for physical CC resistance. (weak characters will be stunned/snared for longer duration) also for encumberance if implemented.
    endurance/constitution: is for health pool and poison/disease resistance.
    intelligence: is for all resource pools not only mana and also for all critical damage multipliers (physical, magical and healing).
    agility/dexterity: evade/dodge and also for all critical chance rolls (physical, magical and healing).
    will: all resources regeneration not only mana and magical CC resistance (weak willed characters will be enchanted/mesmerised for longer duration)

    this way crit rogues will want to find a middle ground between int and dexterity for critical damage and critical chance increase to be effective
    but will be limited to bursts because their low "will" will hamper their resource regenration.
    Tanks will have to spread their attribute points for "will" stat and not only classical str+con in order to have better rage generation and avoid CC wipes on fear /enchant etc

     

    Not sure if this will work. It's a nice idea, but the range of stats is simply too big. Even if we were given an inordinate amount of state raises per lvl, or at creation, people would still only dump those points into the stats that help their classes primary goal.

    Tank - Health, durability (mitigation) and aggro (damage depending on the percentage of aggro determined by DPS)

    I would rather focus only on Str and Stamina, and depend on group mates to cover the other bases such as resistances, stuns, immunities, etc. If this game were more solo-centric, I would agree, but I think this goes down a dangerous path towards homogenization.

    Players will always min/max. That's the nature of MMO's. There will always be an ideal build, even if the paths getting there can be varied. Trying to change that may be an exercise in futility (and unnecessary, I think).

     

    MyNegation said:

    no XP on quest completions,

    only reputation and special items (non combat or really special).
    all xp gains are from mob kills, quests are just guidance for the area, lore , reputation or all together.
    some quests will provide consumables (potions or food) as reward.
    gearing through quests dont make any sense at all, why would a farmer have three types of armor chests for you to choose as reward?
    if he has them either he can use them or he would have sold them to invest in his farm.
    he can reward you with food and potions that he grow/make at his farm, etc.
    a blacksmith for example can reward you with sharpening stones or skeleton keys, only in very rare occasions he will make you a weapon, but this will happen only if you bring him the required materials as part of the quest.

    I think the goal already is to make quests have less of an experience impact, much like EQ did. Sure there were ways to level up through quest turn-ins, which also helped stimulate the economy, but most leveling was done in a group, killing mobs. Quests were not part and parcel of the game. I believe Pantheon is going along the same route as it is.

     

    MyNegation said:

    real trainers:
    when you reach the xp to level up, you dont level up. and you dont get any new XP, you will have to go to trainer and train the level not only buy skills, also you will be sent for a quest before you can level up (maybe each 5th level and not every level)
    not every city will have all trainers, for example warrior culture city will not have high level magical trainers and vice versa. top level trainers should be found in secluded areas or even dungeons.
    same with profession trainers.

    I can get behind this idea. Raid encounters that serve a purpose other than loot is something I'm always for. Make me need to put together a big group just to get to my lvl 50 trainer deep down inside a dungeon. Make a rogue trainer one that has to be reached by disarming traps, picking locks, and slipping between mobs unseen. This sounds fun.

    ------

    It's nice seeing all the work you're putting into this, and I think you'll be pleased that a lot of the stuff you want may already be a goal in Pantheon - from what I've been able to gather so far.

     

    • 409 posts
    August 14, 2017 2:18 PM PDT

    deleted


    This post was edited by Nimryl at August 23, 2017 7:36 AM PDT
    • 178 posts
    August 14, 2017 11:28 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

     

    Not sure if this will work. It's a nice idea, but the range of stats is simply too big. Even if we were given an inordinate amount of state raises per lvl, or at creation, people would still only dump those points into the stats that help their classes primary goal.

    Tank - Health, durability (mitigation) and aggro (damage depending on the percentage of aggro determined by DPS)

    I would rather focus only on Str and Stamina, and depend on group mates to cover the other bases such as resistances, stuns, immunities, etc. If this game were more solo-centric, I would agree, but I think this goes down a dangerous path towards homogenization.

    Players will always min/max. That's the nature of MMO's. There will always be an ideal build, even if the paths getting there can be varied. Trying to change that may be an exercise in futility (and unnecessary, I think).

     

    thanx for the reply :)

    I understand that players will always min/max, but it is brainless to minmax when you have dump stats, i.e. when int and will have absolutely no effect on your performance, 

    if they do have some impact on your performance you will have to think a bit, do you put everything to health, or you should invest something in will.

    i think such system is better, because if there are dump stats and players ignore them, the devs start to invent extra stats just to introduce difficulty dimensions to gearing up ( for example wow introduced haste rating and crit rating after vanilla, even that crit rating was already tied to agility or intelligence but the scaling was bad so players dumped thouse stats and that extra rating had to be invented )

    • 10 posts
    August 16, 2017 12:08 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    It's nice seeing all the work you're putting into this, and I think you'll be pleased that a lot of the stuff you want may already be a goal in Pantheon - from what I've been able to gather so far.

     

    A lot of this stuff has been addressed directly or indirectly by the devs.  For example, turning gear in after you outgrow it will have some benefit that will make selling it for in-game currency or giving to an alt less desireable.

     

    MyNegation said:

     

    no pushback/interrupt resistance.

    pushback resistance is when you casting or channeling spell and the mob hit you and you still keep casting the spell.
    pushback resistance have to go, the pushback resistance is for whiny solo players who want to "pewpew" everything by themselves,
    it is the first step that brought the MMO downfall with simplifying everything and homegenizing all the roles, eventually killing the grouping.

    the melee dps had strong single target damage but vulnerable to kiting, ranged physical dps had fast single target damage and could kite but were not very efficient otherwise. but both could somewhat solo.
    the mages used to have high ranged AOE damage to quickly take out CCed groups but were helpless against close melee enemies, so they whined to get pushback resistance so they could solo, and they got it, so next melee classes started to whine why the mages have so much uninteruptable damage we need to compare our damage to the mages, its only fair.
    and it was done. so all the damage classes got so strong the mobs hp had to get buffed.
    so the tanks whined that they dont do enough damage to kill the mobs and they were right, so their damage got buffed, and the healers joined in, if the mages get pushback resistance we also must have the ability to chain heal ourselves because otherwise we cant survive.
    and the healers became gods, so devs started to invent atrocities for healers like penalty for self heals which made no sense at all.

    so now we are at the situation where all roles are the same, same strengths and no weaknesses. just the animation is different and nobody needs each other.

    all casters (mages/healers/enchanters), when casting or channeling a spell, should be interrupted immediately on any damage wasting the mana.
    magic is a powerfull tool but it has a weakness: close range melee. you cant go alone as a mage, you need a friend a melee that will peel the enemies from you so you can nuke their face.
    since this supposed to be a group oriented game, casters should not have any pushback resistance they shouldnt take the beating, they are the artillery battery that rains the enemy lines with fire but dont stand a chance to a small enemy commando unit.

    spells interrupted on damage with absolutely no option for pushback resistance even on endgame is important because this is the core of the group play.

     

    I don't think this makes sense.  Concentration and similar abilities are there for a reason; mobs AoE and use ranged weapons.  If a magic user has no chance to continue casting after taking damage, then it is easy to build mobs that will make casters completely worthless.  Oops, that mob insta AoE's when someone starts casting, now your party has no magic dmg or mgaic healing.

    • 178 posts
    August 17, 2017 4:13 AM PDT

    dpmguimaraes said:

    I don't think this makes sense.  Concentration and similar abilities are there for a reason; mobs AoE and use ranged weapons.  If a magic user has no chance to continue casting after taking damage, then it is easy to build mobs that will make casters completely worthless.  Oops, that mob insta AoE's when someone starts casting, now your party has no magic dmg or mgaic healing.

    IMHO, working as intended, the caster should bring a melee frient to pick up the mobs and then stay out of its AOE, or bring a CC friend who will root/stun/freeze the mob.

     

     

    • 10 posts
    August 17, 2017 3:51 PM PDT

    MyNegation said:

    IMHO, working as intended, the caster should bring a melee frient to pick up the mobs and then stay out of its AOE, or bring a CC friend who will root/stun/freeze the mob.

     

    Why should this be possible in every encounter?  Sometimes, especially during boss/sub boss fights, it should not be possible for the party to 'stand out of range' or CC the threat away.


    This post was edited by dpmguimaraes at August 17, 2017 3:52 PM PDT