Forums » Pantheon Classes

Off-roles

    • 820 posts
    August 14, 2017 10:31 AM PDT

    So, as a curiosity, I was making a list of the classes along with what I surmise their primary and secondary functions might be.

    ------

    DPS

    Monk

    Ranger

    Rogue

    Summoner

    Wizard

    Druid*

    Bard*

    Enchanter*

     

    Tank

    Paladin

    Warrior

    Dire Lord (?)

    Ranger*

    Bard*

    Monk*

     

    Healer

    Cleric

    Druid*

    Shaman*

    Paladin*

     

    Support/Buffs

    Druid

    Shaman

    Bard

    Enchanter

    Summoner*

    Ranger*

    Cleric*

     

    *What I assume their secondary functions may be

    ------

    I'm sure that most of us agree we don't want to see a homogenisation of roles in a group - and I heartily agree with that. However, one of the things I absolutely LOVE doing in any MMO is taking a class that typically doesn't fit a role, and making it better in that role than many of those in that primary role are.

    As in, creating a ranger intended to play and off-tank, and ending up tanking for the group because the warrior just can't keep up in comparison. That's a darn good feeling.

    Is this feasible? Or am I just asking for that homogenisation here? Is this a slippery slope?

    I've talked a lot in the past about my love for the Warden in Lord of the Rings on-line, and the different approach they took to tanking. That's the kind of thing I love - different approaches towards the same role. Looking at the list of classes, I don't really see that. Paladins and Dire Lords and Warriors will probably all be heavy armor wearing tanks that rely on Armor mitigation with not much of a variation in how they grab and maintain aggro. Hopefully I'm wrong there, and VR has some fresh approaches to these roles.

    If that's the case, I hope that I'll at least have the option to take another class, strap on a buckler, and try my hand at tanking just to wow all the naysayers. I love naysayers.


    This post was edited by Tralyan at August 14, 2017 10:31 AM PDT
    • 8 posts
    August 14, 2017 10:53 AM PDT

    It doesn't sound unrealistic in all aspects, but the current games that get released now-a-days, it is scarce to see them pull off an off-role style of gameplay. This game looks beyond incredible and fun, but most classes are tough to play in an off-role theatrical setting just because you need to have the abilities/spells/etc in order to pull it off. While clerics traditionally have been buffers/healers/support classes, a lot more games have been making them off-tank, heavy support/healer types with limitted buffs now.

    While I agree most classes should be able to have an off-role of what their intended purpose should be, because perhaps you do not want to always DPS, or always tank or always heal, it all depends on how the creators eventually decide to balance out the classes. I can't imagine a ranger being one to support/buff a group, perhaps more of a scout style class, where they can pinpoint certain weak areas and are more of a debuffer. Also I don't see a bard as much of a tank class, to me, a bard should be a leather wearer who supports/buffs and helps healers boost their effectiveness and perhaps reduce the damage  tanks would take, but being able to recieve tons of damage, I just can't see it.

    One thing I would switch is perhaps Paladins in the buff/support role. Paladins have always been in almost ANY game, interchangable where they can play as DPS/Tank/Heals. Tank is normally their primary role, with heals behind, and generally DPS taking it in the rear. It is one of the only classes that if you want a highly changable class that can move where needed, play a Paladin. It is one reason paladins have been my main class for years. Nearly 15 years if I can play a paladin, it is my #1 choice.

    • 3361 posts
    August 14, 2017 11:05 AM PDT

    I would rather see 2 tanking specs for warriors than a tank/dps spec.  When it comes to doing DPS, I would have a set of situational DPS gear, an offensive stance, 2 hander, so on and so forth.

    • 820 posts
    August 14, 2017 11:13 AM PDT

    CottonEyedJoe said:

    I don't see a bard as much of a tank class, to me, a bard should be a leather wearer who supports/buffs and helps healers boost their effectiveness and perhaps reduce the damage  tanks would take, but being able to recieve tons of damage, I just can't see it.

    Oh, sure - I was really going off what I (think?) remembered from EQ, when bards wore plate armor and could, in a pinch, take on an off-tank role. I frankly have no idea how VR will handle these, nor do I really have a preference on which class can perform in which off-role - so long as it can be done.

     

    oneADseven said:

    I would rather see 2 tanking specs for warriors than a tank/dps spec.  When it comes to doing DPS, I would have a set of situational DPS gear, an offensive stance, 2 hander, so on and so forth.

     

    Completely on board with this. If I'm unable to pick up a class that's not traditionally meant to tank and perform as such, then I would at least like to pick from different tanking specs. There will undoubtedly be a spec that is the "go-to" when it comes to tanking, which would automatically draw me to the other one.

     

    I do hope, however, than these tanking specs are actually different enough to be worth the trouble. I'm talking dramatically different enough that it involves an entirely new style of tanking for that class. I'm a big fan of options like that, and not just specs that alter tiny little details (performing better with a blunt weapon vs 1hand slashing, for example).

    • 1100 posts
    August 14, 2017 11:26 AM PDT

    You seem to be missing a catagory. Visionary Realms has made it pretty clear this game is not a Holy Trinity game but a Quaternity and the Crowd Control classes will play a much larger role. I don't think this role should be excluded here.

    • 820 posts
    August 14, 2017 11:37 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    You seem to be missing a catagory. Visionary Realms has made it pretty clear this game is not a Holy Trinity game but a Quaternity and the Crowd Control classes will play a much larger role. I don't think this role should be excluded here.

    Thanks. I was aware of the quaternity but for the life of me couldn't remember what the role was - so I just added Support/Buffs as an all encompassing 4th category.

    • 1100 posts
    August 14, 2017 2:42 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    Zorkon said:

    You seem to be missing a catagory. Visionary Realms has made it pretty clear this game is not a Holy Trinity game but a Quaternity and the Crowd Control classes will play a much larger role. I don't think this role should be excluded here.

    Thanks. I was aware of the quaternity but for the life of me couldn't remember what the role was - so I just added Support/Buffs as an all encompassing 4th category.

    Not suprising since they haven't actually shown us anything like that yet. They talked like it was going to be more, even named it Quaternity, but then in the streams I've seen nothing more than a mez, a root, and a sap... no different than any other game out there.

    On the other hand, i dont belive we've seen a Enchanter revieal yet and we have a long ways to go before. release. 

    I thought of it on your thread due to one that normally plays a Wizard... and your thread shows the limited diversity of a wiz.... we don't tank, we don't buff, we don't heal..the best a traditional Wizard can hope for is a transportation and a little CC (root)

    • 8 posts
    August 15, 2017 3:23 PM PDT

    I could also see another important role, Utility. Wizards/Druids can use ports to help move people around, transportation wise. Rangers/Shamans/Druids help increase the speed of movement to help get around faster. Maybe I am old school, but the most fun part of playing a game, is the traveling aspect. I played EQ and Asherons Call, back when both games did not have mounts. You had to rely on others to help you get around quickly, getting ports, movement speed bonuses, etc. I feel like most every game now is more mount relevant, and in order to get somewhere, you NEEDED a mount. Utility for classes have gone way down and I would love to see an increase in certain classes getting boosts in this. 

     

    • 2122 posts
    August 15, 2017 4:29 PM PDT

    I've mentioned it in other threads but it's worth repeating.

    Utility has to be very carefully considered. For instance, why would I play any ranged DPS other than a Wizard if they get the ability to teleport on top of comparable DPS to other ranged DPS classes?

    It's a tough balance to find. If Rangers are equivalent DPS to Rogues, why would I play a Rogue when Rangers may get a ton of buffs/tracking/ranged capability?

    I think EQ suffered quite a bit in this regard. The class balance was/is atrocious. I'd rather not play a horribly unbalanced game. If Pantheon can do it better then it'd be neat.

    • 180 posts
    August 15, 2017 4:31 PM PDT

     

    The Warden in LOTRO was the best class ever made for an MMORPG imo.  So talking about what it does in the game is not fair.  Its like comparing a modern computer to a room full of TSR80s.

     

    Tralyan:  I saw your write up on another post about how Wardens were either seriously OP or just terrible depending on who was playing them.  That was certainly true.  Many years ago I went on a raid with some friends and we pulled a boss encounter that was actually two nearly identical bosses.  We wiped.  We went back in and I soloed one of them with my warden while the rest of the group (with the healer) slowly took out the other.  However, to use a Warden like this you had to be good.  Very good.  Otherwise, you were an understrengthed off tank.


    This post was edited by JDNight at August 15, 2017 4:45 PM PDT
    • 306 posts
    August 15, 2017 5:14 PM PDT

    Liav said:

    I've mentioned it in other threads but it's worth repeating.

    Utility has to be very carefully considered. For instance, why would I play any ranged DPS other than a Wizard if they get the ability to teleport on top of comparable DPS to other ranged DPS classes?

    It's a tough balance to find. If Rangers are equivalent DPS to Rogues, why would I play a Rogue when Rangers may get a ton of buffs/tracking/ranged capability?

    I think EQ suffered quite a bit in this regard. The class balance was/is atrocious. I'd rather not play a horribly unbalanced game. If Pantheon can do it better then it'd be neat.



    I agree with this.  The only caution that I would make is that this balance cannot be based on forum feedback.

    Your points are well taken and seem quite accurate.  However, it is guaranteed that  On opening day, no matter how well balanced the game might be then, wizards will complain that a rogue (a freaking melee DPS, pfft!) can out DPS them and will cry to high heaven.  When you point out the balance issues you'll get how that's not important and Wizards have traditionally been TOP DPS.  They are Glass Cannon's after all, etc., etc.

    Of course, being a glass cannon nuker makes should balance them over a ranger that can tank in a pinch, but not the melee DPS that is less of a glass cannon but is much more likely to get one-shotted without anyone even realizing that the raid mob turned around to do it.  But none of that will be taken as valid and the screaming will grow loader and loader.

    Meanwhile, in another forum someone will be yelling that because Monks get Feign Death, Necromancers should not even be allowed in the game and Paladins should get Feign Death to undead.  Oh, and FD must be nerfed, nerfed I tell you, nerfed.  But the Paladins should keep their version.

    Then in another forum Warriors will be complaining about how they have no DPS and how come shadow knights got a pull skill and they didn't.

    And on and on it will go.  It shall never end.  It will like this.

    So, I think it should be developer policy to never read the class forums.  Maybe have some forum readers to filter through for legitamate ideas but to never ever listen to the cyclone of "balance recommendations" that will flood from the community and all really add up to either "I don't care that I have support abilities, I want the OP nature of that Class" or "I don't care if they don't have support abilities, that class is too OP and must be nerfed"

    As for Off-Roles, I completely support this.  I know that it takes work, but there is, without a doubt, great feeling that comes with playing a class in its off role and becoming so good at it that you are sometimes prefered over main-role classes due to ability to play.  A druid or shaman that could heal better than many clerics would become known for this via word of mouth.  I enjoyed out tanking tanks as a monk in EQ (not EQ where the monk was a main-role tank, not off-role or secondary-role).  I wasn't the only one either.  Min-Maxers hated it and that just made it sweeter.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at August 15, 2017 5:20 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8762 posts
    August 16, 2017 3:06 AM PDT

    Moved to Pantheon Classes subforum as it is better suited here than in the general section.

    • 820 posts
    August 16, 2017 11:38 AM PDT

    DragonFist said:

    Liav said:

    I've mentioned it in other threads but it's worth repeating.

    Utility has to be very carefully considered. For instance, why would I play any ranged DPS other than a Wizard if they get the ability to teleport on top of comparable DPS to other ranged DPS classes?

    It's a tough balance to find. If Rangers are equivalent DPS to Rogues, why would I play a Rogue when Rangers may get a ton of buffs/tracking/ranged capability?

    I think EQ suffered quite a bit in this regard. The class balance was/is atrocious. I'd rather not play a horribly unbalanced game. If Pantheon can do it better then it'd be neat.



    I agree with this.  The only caution that I would make is that this balance cannot be based on forum feedback.

    Your points are well taken and seem quite accurate.  However, it is guaranteed that  On opening day, no matter how well balanced the game might be then, wizards will complain that a rogue (a freaking melee DPS, pfft!) can out DPS them and will cry to high heaven.  When you point out the balance issues you'll get how that's not important and Wizards have traditionally been TOP DPS.  They are Glass Cannon's after all, etc., etc.

    Of course, being a glass cannon nuker makes should balance them over a ranger that can tank in a pinch, but not the melee DPS that is less of a glass cannon but is much more likely to get one-shotted without anyone even realizing that the raid mob turned around to do it.  But none of that will be taken as valid and the screaming will grow loader and loader.

    Meanwhile, in another forum someone will be yelling that because Monks get Feign Death, Necromancers should not even be allowed in the game and Paladins should get Feign Death to undead.  Oh, and FD must be nerfed, nerfed I tell you, nerfed.  But the Paladins should keep their version.

    Then in another forum Warriors will be complaining about how they have no DPS and how come shadow knights got a pull skill and they didn't.

    And on and on it will go.  It shall never end.  It will like this.

    So, I think it should be developer policy to never read the class forums.  Maybe have some forum readers to filter through for legitamate ideas but to never ever listen to the cyclone of "balance recommendations" that will flood from the community and all really add up to either "I don't care that I have support abilities, I want the OP nature of that Class" or "I don't care if they don't have support abilities, that class is too OP and must be nerfed"

    As for Off-Roles, I completely support this.  I know that it takes work, but there is, without a doubt, great feeling that comes with playing a class in its off role and becoming so good at it that you are sometimes prefered over main-role classes due to ability to play.  A druid or shaman that could heal better than many clerics would become known for this via word of mouth.  I enjoyed out tanking tanks as a monk in EQ (not EQ where the monk was a main-role tank, not off-role or secondary-role).  I wasn't the only one either.  Min-Maxers hated it and that just made it sweeter.

     

    Balance is absolutely trickier. I follow under the category that almost appreciated the horrible class balance in EQ, though I realize that may be an unpopular opinion. I actually LIKED how useless rangers were until, I think, Luclin. I LIKED the threats on forums where new players would try to find out what the least played class was because that's what they were drawn to.

    What I don't like is an unbalanced class, insofar as skills and playability, that also have the ridiculous 40% exp debuff. If you're going to have unbalanced classes, don't also make it twice as hard to level the damn thing up. That was kinda silly, especially since I'm assuming the devs had that because they assumed those hybrids wouldn't suck as much compared to the 1 role classes.

    Liav, what do you consider balance, out of curiosity?

    If a wizard out DPS's a rogue by a significant amount, but also has significantly less durability which forces them to watch aggro or risk being dead in two hits - is that balance to you? Or is balance when both the rogue and the wizard have similar damage output and durability?

    I, personally, am perfectly fine with the former, not so much the latter.

     

    JDNight said:

     

    The Warden in LOTRO was the best class ever made for an MMORPG imo.  So talking about what it does in the game is not fair.  Its like comparing a modern computer to a room full of TSR80s.

     

    Tralyan:  I saw your write up on another post about how Wardens were either seriously OP or just terrible depending on who was playing them.  That was certainly true.  Many years ago I went on a raid with some friends and we pulled a boss encounter that was actually two nearly identical bosses.  We wiped.  We went back in and I soloed one of them with my warden while the rest of the group (with the healer) slowly took out the other.  However, to use a Warden like this you had to be good.  Very good.  Otherwise, you were an understrengthed off tank.

     

    I miss those days, right after Isengard showed up. Sigh. I'd play my Warden again in a heartbeat if someone told me LoTRO went back to its roots. Once they revamped the warden "stances", I completely lost interest.

    Good to see another Warden on the forums. In Pantheon, you and I must tank together.


    This post was edited by Tralyan at August 16, 2017 11:40 AM PDT
    • 1886 posts
    August 16, 2017 5:01 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    So, as a curiosity, I was making a list of the classes along with what I surmise their primary and secondary functions might be.

    ------

    Healer

    Cleric

    Druid*

    Shaman*

    Paladin*

     

    Support/Buffs

    Druid

    Shaman

    Bard

    Enchanter

    Summoner*

    Ranger*

    Cleric*

     

    *What I assume their secondary functions may be

    There has been quite a few discussions on the Shaman and Cleric forums about healing and Brad has stated time and time again that all 3 priest classes will 'be able to heal equally'.  The primary roll of the healer archetype will be to heal.  Anything the classes do otherwise will be their secondary role. 

    The question we all had was this:  What did 'able to heal equally' actually mean?  Nobody wanted the 3 priest classes to be using the same spells because why then play one over the other.  What we have surmised is that through their secondary abilities the primary function will become equalized.  The cleric will have the longer casting, higher mana efficient big heals because their ability to modify incoming damage will be minimal thus their heals must be independently powerful.  The Shaman has its debuffs which lower incoming damage so the heals are smaller, quicker and less mana efficient. We don't see the druid having debuffs akin to the shaman but rather spells which can shorten the fight so their heals will be between those of the cleric and shaman.

    If we then put 3 identical warriors each up against 3 identical NPCs, each of the priests would keep that warrior alive.  Their health bars will move in drastically different fashions, but each will remain alive.

    One can extrapolate to the other archetypes and make the case that each will perform their primary function equally yet differently because of their secondary abilities.