Kaen said:
It's hard to use WoW as a comparison, especially from its early days, given that a lot of players were kids and super-casuals. Also, raiding was pretty hardcore, as in a paladin had to--by HAND--buff 40 people with 5 minute buffs for the entire raid.... This was before CT raid assist, buffs ahoy, etc...
And to get fire resist gear, people had to farm pieces from BRD(?), blacksmiths had to farm faction with DI dwarves in order to make FR gear, etc...
Yeah, but also to be fair the group blessings came almost a year before Burning Crusade hit. The thing is that even by Wrath of the Lich King with 12 million players they still only had 10% raiding, and that number hasn't really shifted much when it comes to raiding at a similar content difficulty level. Even at the 5-8 million the game has today it's 10-15%, and that is saying quite a lot since accessability isn't an issue. Anyone can gather up the 10/25 players and raid at whatever time works best for them any day of the week, no spawn contesting or otherwise waiting for access.
So far I've only read the first 2 pages of this thread, but it seems pretty clear that someone has been reading on the theory of communism while ignoring the actual history of communism.
As such, I will say I absolutely hope there will be keyed zones. If you want access to them then earn them the same way others will have to do. Simply being born doesn't entitle you to everything that is possessed by others who worked for the item of your desire.
Searril said:So far I've only read the first 2 pages of this thread, but it seems pretty clear that someone has been reading on the theory of communism while ignoring the actual history of communism.
As such, I will say I absolutely hope there will be keyed zones. If you want access to them then earn them the same way others will have to do. Simply being born doesn't entitle you to everything that is possessed by others who worked for the item of your desire.
One of the lessons that was drilled into me as a kid growing up in the 80s was you get out what you put in. I totally accept that in most MMOs there is a chance I will not get a chance at that very top tier content and I'm ok with that. There were raids in WoW that less than 1% of 5-10mil players cleared and to those players I would give hearty congratulations, not complain that it isn't fair that I can't get that. If you as a player are willing to grind out 40 hour gaming weeks, you should have achieved more than me whom is putting in 20 hour weeks and have stuff to show for it. So yeah, I accept and expect there to be gated content that requires top end gear, items, groups to get there and clear it. If I want to participate in that content, I will achieve what is necessary to get there. Be happy and enjoy your own adventures and experiences.
I kinda agree that it does seem a little artificial - and that's mostly because of game and level progression. In EQ, I remember well after Velious was already out, and I was still just shy of lvl 45 (I lvl'd slow, shut up). My guildmates would constantly tell me, hurry up, get lvl 46 so we can take you to the Planes.
That in itself is fine, but the fact that we were well into Velious and, if I recall correctly, Hate loot was a little outdated at the time - THAT made these artificial blocks seem a little silly. I could have had fun exploring a new place with my guild mates, gaining experience in the process, instead of leveling slowly doing the same old thing just so I could explore a zone that was, by then, hardly worth the time. To me that makes it not an issue of entitlement vs not, but rather artifial restrictions for no reason. I'm also fairly certain, that prior to Velious, had I tried the Planes before Lvl 46, I would've just gotten creamed anyway, which makes me wonder what the point of it was to begin with.
I'm a little on the fence on this. I understand the entitlement argument, but I also very much understand the argument that is against any kind of artificla restrictions by the game. I want the world to expand and grow organically in ways the Devs couldn't predict. I want it to be its own entity, and not be directed or redirected to anything based on anything other than skill. Artificial restraints of any kind take that away.
Tough call. I see both sides.
Tralyan said:I kinda agree that it does seem a little artificial - and that's mostly because of game and level progression. In EQ, I remember well after Velious was already out, and I was still just shy of lvl 45 (I lvl'd slow, shut up). My guildmates would constantly tell me, hurry up, get lvl 46 so we can take you to the Planes.
That in itself is fine, but the fact that we were well into Velious and, if I recall correctly, Hate loot was a little outdated at the time - THAT made these artificial blocks seem a little silly. I could have had fun exploring a new place with my guild mates, gaining experience in the process, instead of leveling slowly doing the same old thing just so I could explore a zone that was, by then, hardly worth the time. To me that makes it not an issue of entitlement vs not, but rather artifial restrictions for no reason. I'm also fairly certain, that prior to Velious, had I tried the Planes before Lvl 46, I would've just gotten creamed anyway, which makes me wonder what the point of it was to begin with.
I'm a little on the fence on this. I understand the entitlement argument, but I also very much understand the argument that is against any kind of artificla restrictions by the game. I want the world to expand and grow organically in ways the Devs couldn't predict. I want it to be its own entity, and not be directed or redirected to anything based on anything other than skill. Artificial restraints of any kind take that away.
Tough call. I see both sides.
Actually PoH/PoF were revamped 4 months after Velious released so the content/items were still relevant, and a small handful of BiS items were still coming out of there through Kunark as well.
Tralyan said:I kinda agree that it does seem a little artificial - and that's mostly because of game and level progression. In EQ, I remember well after Velious was already out, and I was still just shy of lvl 45 (I lvl'd slow, shut up). My guildmates would constantly tell me, hurry up, get lvl 46 so we can take you to the Planes.
That in itself is fine, but the fact that we were well into Velious and, if I recall correctly, Hate loot was a little outdated at the time - THAT made these artificial blocks seem a little silly. I could have had fun exploring a new place with my guild mates, gaining experience in the process, instead of leveling slowly doing the same old thing just so I could explore a zone that was, by then, hardly worth the time. To me that makes it not an issue of entitlement vs not, but rather artifial restrictions for no reason. I'm also fairly certain, that prior to Velious, had I tried the Planes before Lvl 46, I would've just gotten creamed anyway, which makes me wonder what the point of it was to begin with.
I'm a little on the fence on this. I understand the entitlement argument, but I also very much understand the argument that is against any kind of artificla restrictions by the game. I want the world to expand and grow organically in ways the Devs couldn't predict. I want it to be its own entity, and not be directed or redirected to anything based on anything other than skill. Artificial restraints of any kind take that away.
Tough call. I see both sides.
I'm all for keyed areas, but not at all for artificial gear/level restrictions.
In your case (irregardless of whether the gear was worthwhile), if your group was able to handle the content, willing to have you along even if you were of little use (though if you could get XP, that's doubtful) then there is no reason I can think of to keep you out. However, if the zone was keyed, you would have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else. Though it would be easier if your friends could help you. But that's what a group centric game is all about.
DragonFist said:Tralyan said:I kinda agree that it does seem a little artificial - and that's mostly because of game and level progression. In EQ, I remember well after Velious was already out, and I was still just shy of lvl 45 (I lvl'd slow, shut up). My guildmates would constantly tell me, hurry up, get lvl 46 so we can take you to the Planes.
That in itself is fine, but the fact that we were well into Velious and, if I recall correctly, Hate loot was a little outdated at the time - THAT made these artificial blocks seem a little silly. I could have had fun exploring a new place with my guild mates, gaining experience in the process, instead of leveling slowly doing the same old thing just so I could explore a zone that was, by then, hardly worth the time. To me that makes it not an issue of entitlement vs not, but rather artifial restrictions for no reason. I'm also fairly certain, that prior to Velious, had I tried the Planes before Lvl 46, I would've just gotten creamed anyway, which makes me wonder what the point of it was to begin with.
I'm a little on the fence on this. I understand the entitlement argument, but I also very much understand the argument that is against any kind of artificla restrictions by the game. I want the world to expand and grow organically in ways the Devs couldn't predict. I want it to be its own entity, and not be directed or redirected to anything based on anything other than skill. Artificial restraints of any kind take that away.
Tough call. I see both sides.
I'm all for keyed areas, but not at all for artificial gear/level restrictions.
In your case (irregardless of whether the gear was worthwhile), if your group was able to handle the content, willing to have you along even if you were of little use (though if you could get XP, that's doubtful) then there is no reason I can think of to keep you out. However, if the zone was keyed, you would have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else. Though it would be easier if your friends could help you. But that's what a group centric game is all about.
And unless a level 45 had gone there with a fairly overpowering force, that level 45 would have gotten everyone killed. Proximity agro there was maginified by someone's level if I recall, so the lower you were, the more likely you'd draw agro from greater distances, and bring hellfire down on everyone.
Feyshtey said:And unless a level 45 had gone there with a fairly overpowering force, that level 45 would have gotten everyone killed. Proximity agro there was maginified by someone's level if I recall, so the lower you were, the more likely you'd draw agro from greater distances, and bring hellfire down on everyone.
DragonFist said:I'm all for keyed areas, but not at all for artificial gear/level restrictions.
In your case (irregardless of whether the gear was worthwhile), if your group was able to handle the content, willing to have you along ever if you were of little use (though if you could get XP, that's doubtful) then there is no reason I can think of to keep you out. However, if the zone was keyed, you would have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else. Though it would be easier if your friends could help you. But that's what a group centric game is all about.
If I remember correctly the reason you could not enter the planes below level 46 was because your "will" was not sufficient. Something like that seems fine to me, as you were trying to alter your plane of existence to enter the plane of a god. I imagine part of the decision was also how dangerous those zones were and they really didn't want low levels zoning in and pulling the whole zone or otherwise wiping raids. Even if not a God of some kind, I don't find it unreasonable that high level raids/group dungeons might have level requirements or similar magical barriers preventing someone of lesser strength/will from breaking through.
Feyshtey said:DragonFist said:Tralyan said:I kinda agree that it does seem a little artificial - and that's mostly because of game and level progression. In EQ, I remember well after Velious was already out, and I was still just shy of lvl 45 (I lvl'd slow, shut up). My guildmates would constantly tell me, hurry up, get lvl 46 so we can take you to the Planes.
That in itself is fine, but the fact that we were well into Velious and, if I recall correctly, Hate loot was a little outdated at the time - THAT made these artificial blocks seem a little silly. I could have had fun exploring a new place with my guild mates, gaining experience in the process, instead of leveling slowly doing the same old thing just so I could explore a zone that was, by then, hardly worth the time. To me that makes it not an issue of entitlement vs not, but rather artifial restrictions for no reason. I'm also fairly certain, that prior to Velious, had I tried the Planes before Lvl 46, I would've just gotten creamed anyway, which makes me wonder what the point of it was to begin with.
I'm a little on the fence on this. I understand the entitlement argument, but I also very much understand the argument that is against any kind of artificla restrictions by the game. I want the world to expand and grow organically in ways the Devs couldn't predict. I want it to be its own entity, and not be directed or redirected to anything based on anything other than skill. Artificial restraints of any kind take that away.
Tough call. I see both sides.
I'm all for keyed areas, but not at all for artificial gear/level restrictions.
In your case (irregardless of whether the gear was worthwhile), if your group was able to handle the content, willing to have you along even if you were of little use (though if you could get XP, that's doubtful) then there is no reason I can think of to keep you out. However, if the zone was keyed, you would have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else. Though it would be easier if your friends could help you. But that's what a group centric game is all about.And unless a level 45 had gone there with a fairly overpowering force, that level 45 would have gotten everyone killed. Proximity agro there was maginified by someone's level if I recall, so the lower you were, the more likely you'd draw agro from greater distances, and bring hellfire down on everyone.
This is what I'm kinda referring to. If bringing a lvl 45 has a pretty good chance of getting the group killed simply due to proximity aggro, then it kinda of negates the whole reason for needing to be keyed to get in - or am I just being dense?
That's the kind of thing that makes the world feel more alive. Having to weigh the risks of bringing someone that has the potential of dragging down the entire group, or not. As long as the content is challenging enough so that having someone below a certain level creates a liability, then the keyed system seems a little redundant and silly to me.
Iksar said:DragonFist said:I'm all for keyed areas, but not at all for artificial gear/level restrictions.
In your case (irregardless of whether the gear was worthwhile), if your group was able to handle the content, willing to have you along ever if you were of little use (though if you could get XP, that's doubtful) then there is no reason I can think of to keep you out. However, if the zone was keyed, you would have to jump through the same hoops as everyone else. Though it would be easier if your friends could help you. But that's what a group centric game is all about.
If I remember correctly the reason you could not enter the planes below level 46 was because your "will" was not sufficient. Something like that seems fine to me, as you were trying to alter your plane of existence to enter the plane of a god. I imagine part of the decision was also how dangerous those zones were and they really didn't want low levels zoning in and pulling the whole zone or otherwise wiping raids. Even if not a God of some kind, I don't find it unreasonable that high level raids/group dungeons might have level requirements or similar magical barriers preventing someone of lesser strength/will from breaking through.
Attunements and keys exist for a reason, they give you a goal to work towards, something you can look forward to and fell good when you finally achieve it.
The "you need to be level x to enter this zone because you don't have enough will" just seems abitrary and I would preffer if VR stays away from that type of random restrictions. That's why they're creating the aclimation system, it's basically an attunement/Key systems but it has purpose and doesn't feel so arbitrary. Aclimation can be somewhat bypassed by on use 1 time potions and resist buffs (in the situation where a slighly lower level friend wants to come) if only 1 or 2 players are missing the essential gear, they'll still be weaker and perform sub-par to the other players that have the adequate gear, but they'll be able to tag along and participate in the content. Now with that said, the hardest content should require the best acclimation gear and all the quest chains, for players that want to acces it, but entry level content should have a bit more leeway.
Why is it so egregious that player level itself be the key? Especially in such a thing as trying to enter the plane of existence of a god, so long as used very sparingly I really don't see the issue. Lore and magic can be used to explain just about anything, from some random bauble from a quest allowing entrance to some magical place to powerful entities being able to ward an area against "lesser" creatures.
Or think outside the box. Maybe the "key" is soft-level based and entrance to an area requires a blood sacrifice, dispelling a player before testing them by drawing enough HP to leave a character of sufficient "strength" with next to 0 hp.
The thing I don't like about zones locked behind level requirements, is that it makes it seem like getting to that level as fast as possible is the goal of the game (aka endgame) even though it's completly not true, but because a numeric value is such an easy metric to guide yourself by or such an easy clear cut goal to establish for yourself, makes it seem like that's the goal of the game.
I'm totally down for that blood sacrifice idea, or will check, or whatever, just make it not apperant to the player base, make it feel like it's a integral part of the playing experience as oposed to a number that you must reach.
I still believe that the acclimation system will do the job just fine, combine with the fact that Joppa said they'll look into acclimation actually being a skill that you can level up (just like weapon skills and schools of magic) by spend time in "softer" climmates. This will create a natural "soft-cap goal" on acclimation based on the characters level/acclimation gear/infusions.
Iksar said:Why is it so egregious that player level itself be the key? Especially in such a thing as trying to enter the plane of existence of a god, so long as used very sparingly I really don't see the issue. Lore and magic can be used to explain just about anything, from some random bauble from a quest allowing entrance to some magical place to powerful entities being able to ward an area against "lesser" creatures.
Or think outside the box. Maybe the "key" is soft-level based and entrance to an area requires a blood sacrifice, dispelling a player before testing them by drawing enough HP to leave a character of sufficient "strength" with next to 0 hp.
DragonFist said:
I kinda like the get hit by an AE upon entering idea. Once one succeeds in surviving it, one gets a flag (key). And they can freely enter after that. But again, it isn't a string of text or a hard level limit that doesn't actually determine one's ability to survive.
I could totally get behind this. In an MMO where death actually matters, this would be perfect.
Ok after reading the last couple replies I feel I have to amend my own reply. I didn't know what you all meant was actually not being able to zone into a zone because of a level restriction. I don't mind if you can't get in because you don't have the attunement key, quest completed Etc etc, but do not agree with trying to zone into a zone and it spitting you back out saying you haven't met a level requirement. If you want to go into a high level zone and test your luck getting killed, more power to you because you'll have to get your corpse back. The devs have stated there could be high level crafting areas or vendors at the bottom of dungeons or peak of a mountain so yeah if you want to stealth your way around and explore, more power to you and goodluck. However, that's why I liked older MMOs where life and death actually mattered and you thought twice about stuff like that because you had something to lose if you failed.
Searril said:So far I've only read the first 2 pages of this thread, but it seems pretty clear that someone has been reading on the theory of communism while ignoring the actual history of communism.
As such, I will say I absolutely hope there will be keyed zones. If you want access to them then earn them the same way others will have to do. Simply being born doesn't entitle you to everything that is possessed by others who worked for the item of your desire.
Exactly. I've been discussing mmorpgs for the last 15 years, and most of the important topics always come down to merit versus entitlement. Unfortunately, as the years have gone by, entitlement is becoming the philosophy of choice among players.
Here's to hoping Pantheon can change that. Otherwise, we'll have just another game that lacks the necessary sense of accomplishment to keep people playing.
Liav said:I see more complaining about entitlement than I ever do actual entitlement.
Look at Vanilla WoW compared to now though. There is a clear case of actual entitlement winning out and completely effecting design choices. Getting one of those oh so tasty purples or the even more tasty orange was such a rare thing it was awesome to see them in a city. The cries of it being so unfair most players would pretty much only get to see them by inspecting a top level player, that now they are a joke and nothing special at all because everyone is running around with them. IIRC the devs have even said it was a mistake and they regret caving in making their legendary items glorified commons and there is no going back now.
There are many problems with that. For one, it essentially means that you want the devs to just design the game they want instead of listening to players at all.
If I tell a dev that their game is trash because their loot system is too heavily based on RNG and I don't like having my gameplay distilled to pure luck when it comes to getting drops, that isn't entitlement. It's a criticism of a bad system. Is it self oriented? Of course it is. I play video games to invest time and effort and get good outcomes as a result. That applies to gear as well as many other facets of the game.
You act like selfishness is a bad thing, although it can be to some extent. I'm not going to subject myself to awful gameplay if there isn't an outlet to complain to the devs to improve their game. If wanting to play a better game is entitlement, then I don't know what to say to that really.
Devs should listen to their players and make educated decisions based on their feedback. Do you know how few developers actually do that? Caving to the whim of the average forum poster isn't a good idea, but I would hope there's some intelligence behind the scenes that can sort through things to see the light. That rarely happens though. I've played at least a dozen games that are just disgustingly broken in some aspect, and things either never get fixed or they get fixed way too late.
Nimryl said:Entitlement is a little off-topic guys.. but I'll say this.. personally I was trying to highlight the hand-holding of "full-stop" level based restricted content.. like a PoFear's lvl46 and i-levels restrictions for dungeons. If you see my post as "entitled"; that was not my intention. I just wanted to bring it to the communities attention mainly because that kind of hand-holding isn't needed and does nothing but damages/softens it's community making them uptight about death when they do actually fail.
My main opinion on entitlement in mmos is this...
The entitlement of one person isn't really the problem. What the real problem is... the devs listening to entitlement. Don't get me wrong.. there is a clear difference between "just an idea/suggestion" and entitlement (pushed-on self orientated wants).. Trust me I've seen devs say things'll be X way then change their minds about it due to ENMASSE entitlement (pressure of the crowd via forums usually). Also enacting on ideas and suggestions is fine.. so long as the devs weight them vs the overall gamestyle of the game and it's effects. Devs need to grow a spine/some fortitude and think of the game as a whole! (because the players won't!) instead of just catering the best they can just for the sake of money/popularity/sales.
Don't give people what they want... give them what they need!
Removing content restrictions is clear cut entitlement. Anyone arguing entitlement is not an issue in mmo's is being intellectually dishonest.