Liav said:In games where the staff actually cares: Report and move on.
In games where the staff doesn't care: Do the same thing, or worse, in return.
Rules only matter as far as they are enforced. Can't remember the last time training someone in EQ actually got me in trouble.
Yeah, exactly this.
The good thing about players being on 1 server is that player reputation of really bad will spread especially if it's group focused.
I propose a modern day solution to avoiding bad players and that's by letting others players rate each other kind of like giving a steam review of a game. You can quickly see the negative vs positive percentage and top reviews rise to the top.
The consequence of grieving other players is this person gets a bad player rating and will likely not be invited to groups. The player will need to change his behavior to improve his ratings or just make a new character.
Nimryl said:This is one of my "buttons" with most of these modern mmos. Their too scared to actually step-in.. help out/care due to people sueing them in return. The worlds gone mad. The culture/lameness of it needs to stop..
I bet you can find less than 10 situations where someone has sued over a banned account in an MMO, and probably 0 where it was successful. This is alarmist at best.
When it comes to griefing, all you have is a he said/she said situation unless a GM is actually observing. Even if they are, you're not handing out a ban on a first offense unless it's something really insane like racism.
Gather all the evidence needed to show their toxic behavoir and take it to their guild leaders and/or post it to several public forums and publicly shame them. Destroying their reputation can go a long ways in stopping this. I just hope the VR doesn't give people an easy way to escape their reputation, like name changes for $. All of this on top of a report if they are actually breaking rules.
Nimryl said:Liav said:Nimryl said:This is one of my "buttons" with most of these modern mmos. Their too scared to actually step-in.. help out/care due to people sueing them in return. The worlds gone mad. The culture/lameness of it needs to stop..
I bet you can find less than 10 situations where someone has sued over a banned account in an MMO, and probably 0 where it was successful. This is alarmist at best.
When it comes to griefing, all you have is a he said/she said situation unless a GM is actually observing. Even if they are, you're not handing out a ban on a first offense unless it's something really insane like racism.
Nahh it's like companies keep interaction too a minimum due to this. Scared of being sued for saying/doing the wrong thing. So they keep there distance as much as possible.
It's more like a banned account doesn't get them their ~$15 a month. They (big game companies) often turn a blind eye simply so that they don't have to decrease their own income. I've never heard of it having anything to do with being sued.
Nimryl said:
Nahh it's like companies keep interaction too a minimum due to this. Scared of being sued for saying/doing the wrong thing. So they keep there distance as much as possible.
Where's the evidence, though? Saying it doesn't make it true. It may seem like I'm being harsh here, but I really have a thing about baseless claims.
Someone could sue any company for any reason at any time. It would be thrown out because there is zero grounds. MMO companies are private entities that reserve the right to terminate service to you at any time without any fear of repercussions.
Once again, griefing is a challenging situation to manage because it's difficult to collect evidence after the fact. A one time offender may not even get a warning because there's zero evidence the event occurred aside from some nerd saying that it did.
How do you prove that I trained you when all the CSR staff has is a corpse to look at? Unless they start watching me play invisibly and see if I repeat the behavior, nothing will come of it, as it should be.
I'm sure you experienced game companies not addressing griefing much at all, but attributing it to a fear of litigation is kind of bizarre unless higherups in multiple studios specifically said "we don't address griefing because we might get sued".
Either way, I'm just going to let it go.
I am patient for proof. First time, could be an acident. Second time, maybe I got there the same time they did and they are trying their tactic again. Third time, ask if they need help/tell them that we are here and how its impacting us. Fourth time, think of something else to do and go somewhere else/remember their name.
Decide if I have the guts to confront them months later when I am LFM and they want to join. If they have forgotten but are genuinely remoresful over my description of the events, I will conscript them with the following caveat: They can join and if we do well then they will make themselves avaliable to help me with things I want to do, on-demand, whenever they are on for two more times.
If they do poorly in the group, I wont invite them again but not ignore (characters can change). If they are on, but are unavailable for me the next two times, they go on ignore.
Flexibility for timing, like, if I come on and they are already in a group- that's understandable. Although on the sly I will ask who they are grouped with and I wil try to get information from those people about this person.
Can you believe I had the experience where one was LFG, I invited them and they asked how much I was going to pay them for joining and helping out (!?) *blink*. Ok he was a rogue but he wasn't RP'ing. If the mechanic worked I would have allowed pickpocketing rights among the players (they need skill-ups) if the players agreed. I did offer some gems up front but he said it wasn't enough- heh thats when I learned he wasn't RP'ing.
If it feels like an accident to me I will ignore it.
If it happens 2 times in a row I will talk to someone it the group and ask if they need help.
If they are nonresponsive and do it again or are belligerent I will screenshot it and report it and/or talk to an officer in their guild if they are in one.
Lastly there is always the community. Someone doing this consistantly will hopefully get a reputation for doing so. If they are within a guild hopefully the guild can deal with them. I just cant see many guilds standing by while one or several of their members are griefing people on a consistant basis.
I think the question was meant for what we as players do, not so much what companies do or don't... with that in mind.
I tend to ingore 99% of people that grief in a game. Whether by blocking, ignoring, or just not responding at all. If it gets bad enough I'll respond, and report, then block/ignore but most cases they tend to loose interest if they get no reaction after a short time.
If someone has a bad enough reputation with an ENTIRE gaming community, a warning should be given. Whether it be being toxic as all hell in a chat with people, preventing people from progressing in the game, etc.
This is a totally different genre of games, but in Overwatch they have this thing where you can report players for bad teamwork, abusive chat, etc. Eventually they get a temporary ban. And it also decreases their score. The problem is... They have multiple accounts, so who cares?
It's funny because there are no specific rules for Overwatch saying you must play more than 1 character. But the game was created for people to switch, you're not suppose to "main" any character and have 1000 hours on them. Especially since there are counters to each character. If you're dying over and over and refuse to help the team because of your ego. That's bad attitude and bad teamwork. So I've actually seen people get banned in Overwatch for only ever playing one character that isn't always viable for a specific group of overwatch heroes. And some people just can't switch around them because it's necessary to have tanks, heals, and 1 dps that can counter some of their other heroes.
Now, you see, there may not be a specific rule that will ban you for farming something out, but there could be a rule for toxic like behavior and not being sportsman like in the game. Refusing to share an area and farming it for weeks at a time shouldn't be okay for the community. In which case we report for behavior. Behavior preventing people from experiencing bits and pieces of the game.
Now I know some people in this community were hoping for some of that nostalgia of farming and camping mobs over and over. In which case someone should invite the person for the kill. Maybe say hey, I really need this and I've been sitting here for hours farming it, but I'll invite you so you can get what you need... as long as it isn't "this". Then that person who was sitting there for hours can set loot up so he's loot master. Person gets kill completion and maybe the stuff they were waiting for.
If there's already a full group there, well, maybe you're better off going ahead of them and finding another higher level mob to farm. As long as people HAVE to sit and pay attention to the mob that keeps spawning and they dont get a good chance to afk for more than 5 minutes, I can't see farming being a huge issue in game. Some games allow you to sit there for hours waiting for these same mobs to spawn. And you just come back ever 30 minutes (mob spawn timer) and kill the mob and afk again. That's not even fair. If someone wants to farm, they better be working for it.
On a personal note though, I always try my best to fight for what I want. Competition is great in a game. Helps people build their skills quicker and then you're not stuck inviting people who want to be carried in dungeons or on adventures. Farming an area isn't the only way of griefing someone, so I usually try to get even in any way possible. But I was hoping that our community will be so awesome when the game is released, that the moment their name is mentioned in chat and the griefing they are partaking in, the community will somewhat shun them. And they will have to find a way to redeem themselves towards the entire community. Example: no invites to any groups to continue progressing (they get left in the dust compared to everyone else), no guild invites, no crafting for these people, no repairs, no help. That will really teach people not to be such buttheads in a game towards people who want to really enjoy this game.
Maybe if someone gets reported enough, they get a DUNCE cap on their head and receive significantly less exp for their toxic behavior. No ban, just a lot of extra progression for disturbing others gameplay. Then if they are looking for group and someone see's the hat, they will most likely decline because there's a possibility he tries to troll and has no intentions of actually doing well with a group. That would be hilarious.
Liav said:In games where the staff actually cares: Report and move on.
In games where the staff doesn't care: Do the same thing, or worse, in return.
Rules only matter as far as they are enforced. Can't remember the last time training someone in EQ actually got me in trouble.
This.
The whole bad reputation thing won't generally stop some people as I have known guilds in the past that turn a blind eye to their own members acting like jerks. It *could* end up being a bit worse in Pantheon where those with bad reputations only need 5 other friends to do high(est) level content since raids are not the focus.
I hope there are enough GMs/Guides to manage things and hopefully with powerful tools. It would be interesting to see GMs able to even disable specific abilities for a period of time for griefers, such as feign death.
Kilsin said:How do you handle griefing players in PvE MMORPGs without breaking the rules yourself? #PRF #Communitymatters
I am afraid there is little you can do to stop the griefers without getting help from the GM staff. It comes down to a he said/she said. Unless there is a lot of griefing being done at one particular event and you have multiple witnesses.
Yes you can complain to thier guild but that rarely works out well for you. It's like telling thier mommy they hit you and he says you started it. They most all the time side with thier guildies. The best thing to do is tell a GM and maybe they will keep an eye out for the trouble maker. Some people are a little more touchy than others. If you think they are in trouble and try to help them they think you are trying to ks them. The best way i find to help is to either heal them while they are fighting, which does not always help a lot or maybe root thier mob so they can excape.
As far as people training you,it can be a case of self preservation where you were on the path to the zoneline and they tried to run there. If it happens more than once the player does not belong in that area and a kind word like "maybe you need to go get help or take on a more sizable mob".
Sometimes people think they own a camp and you are just stealing it. Even after they left to have lunch and have an afk sign on. That , too, is a GM problem and I hope they have a way of going back in the logs to see who is in the right. If you have a solo or duo camping a site, lets say a derv camp, and they have the timing down right. A 6 man guild comes along and takes over the mobs that are spawning and they basicaly ruin the duo's camp. I am sure contacting thier guild leader will get you a big fat nothing. But contacting a GM may be of some help.
But I am sure the GM's will be too busy to waste thier time with petty squabbles.
I guess what I am trying to say is the only way to stop the griefing and squabbling is to show everyone the same curtesy that you yourself expect from others.
That my friends is a dream I am sure will never come true.
Kilsin said:How do you handle griefing players in PvE MMORPGs without breaking the rules yourself? #PRF #Communitymatters
I like what Liav and Iksar said.
I try and chat with them first mind you, if no response/resolution I usually move on and keep note of the name and if it is bad then I report it. I typically don't ever read the boards as I do these, the boards usually turn into drivel and arguing as the game evolves so I have no idea what is going on in my community.
How many times has the real pain in the a$$/griefer on the server belonged to one of the big guilds where they have turned a blind eye because they are an asset to them. And how many MMO's out there don't have the resources to handle the complaints or really don't care and are happy with their revenue.
1) Turn on logging.
2) Send them a polite msg letting them know that they are affecting my/our gameplay and a reminder of the social norms, sort of a "I'm not sure you're aware, but..."
3) Ask in my guild if anyone knows them and if yes, do they think they can reason with the person.
4) Send a msg to their guild leader/officers. "Soandso is not presenting a great image of your guild...."
5) If known, send msgs to guild leaders/officers of guilds allied with the offender's guild.
6) Petition / Report
7) Wait patiently till the day comes (and it always comes) that they need something from me or I'm in a position to bail their ass out of aligator's, and pleasantly say "Not a chance in hell. Do you recall the day..."
This is a community issue and it starts with respect for other players. In EQ we used to ask the people in an area if it was alright to level in the same area. There were lists of people that were known kill stealers and loot takers. Once you earned a negative name for yourself people wouldn't allow you to join groups. It was common to start a group and before adding someone to the group it would be put to a quick vote to the other people already in the group to see if anyone had an issue with adding a particular person. I remember quite a few times hearing, "No, don't add them. I was in a group with them last night and they kept pulling mobs in the middle of a fight." or "That guy is a loot ninja and stole items from my group last week".
It would really help if the DEVS added a community reputation system that the players could use to report people that are rude or kill/loot steal and when you look at them you would see that community reputation. Of course you would have some people that would try to mess with that system but you could limit the reporting to people that have grouped with the individual.
Darkhorse said:It would really help if the DEVS added a community reputation system that the players could use to report people that are rude or kill/loot steal and when you look at them you would see that community reputation. Of course you would have some people that would try to mess with that system but you could limit the reporting to people that have grouped with the individual.
Never going to happen though, too easy to abuse no matter the implementation.