I've only just got round to reading the May newsletter (I know, I've been slacking) and I noticed something in the accompanying patch notes:
BenD said:- Fix issues with NPCs and Pets on elevators. Floor 12 had a real scare last month when someone showed up with their pet velociraptor. Let’s be more considerate going forward.
I also remember seeing an elevator in the Tower of the Reckless Magician.
Now, I'm very much not a fan of elevators in fantasy MMOs. In terms of immersion, they often have no visible propulsion system, which makes them necessarily magical, yet are sometimes found in places where magical elevators don't really fit in. As for gameplay, elevators can make players stand around waiting for them to go up/down, are prone to clipping/falling issues, and usually just do their own thing with no interaction possible other than standing on them.
In view of the above, I have some questions. How abundant will elevators be in Terminus? Will they be restricted to locations where magically moving platforms make sense? If not, will elevators include visible propulsion mechanisms such as ropes, pulleys, wheels, etc.? Will elevators operate on their own, or will players be able to use some sort of button or lever to call and start elevators? And finally, is anyone else bummed by elevators in fantasy games as I am? :)
The elevator in the last stream had buttons. A yellow one on the floor they were on, and a green and a purple inside the elevator (guessing one for going up and one for going down). That looks to me like the elevator was player operated :)
-sorte.
Sorte said:The elevator in the last stream had buttons. A yellow one on the floor they were on, and a green and a purple inside the elevator (guessing one for going up and one for going down). That looks to me like the elevator was player operated :)
-sorte.
Nice catch. I didn't notice those at the time.
I'm not typically a fan of any modern technology that doesn't fit the game world. Guns used to always be a big one for me in a fantasy setting (when the main weapons were swords/knives/staves etc.) Who would bring a sword to a gun fight...?. Elevators usually would fit that mold for me. Now, if the elevators were the result of some gnomish tinkering/engineering, then it wouldn't be so bothersome.
daemonios said:I've only just got round to reading the May newsletter (I know, I've been slacking) and I noticed something in the accompanying patch notes:
BenD said:- Fix issues with NPCs and Pets on elevators. Floor 12 had a real scare last month when someone showed up with their pet velociraptor. Let’s be more considerate going forward.
I also remember seeing an elevator in the Tower of the Reckless Magician.
Now, I'm very much not a fan of elevators in fantasy MMOs. In terms of immersion, they often have no visible propulsion system, which makes them necessarily magical, yet are sometimes found in places where magical elevators don't really fit in. As for gameplay, elevators can make players stand around waiting for them to go up/down, are prone to clipping/falling issues, and usually just do their own thing with no interaction possible other than standing on them.
In view of the above, I have some questions. How abundant will elevators be in Terminus? Will they be restricted to locations where magically moving platforms make sense? If not, will elevators include visible propulsion mechanisms such as ropes, pulleys, wheels, etc.? Will elevators operate on their own, or will players be able to use some sort of button or lever to call and start elevators? And finally, is anyone else bummed by elevators in fantasy games as I am? :)
Beyond their uses for the handicapped, I can't say I like elevators for many of the reasons you included. Not to mention, the world of Terminus shall not have handicapped people.
Go ahead, put the showy magical elevator in that one Wizard's tower. The grand majority of the time, however, I want to see stairs that fit the area. Broken crumbly ones in ancient cities, gilded, carpeted ones in palaces, small circular stairwells in the castle walls, etc.
Stairs come with walls, more space for npcs, much more room for traps and the like, and more space for the artists to show off. Artists showing off was a big part of what made Everquest cool, IMO. I watched a thing on youtube where a guy discovered that every painting in the game was different. That's the attention to detail I like to see!
Progression through a place feels more like progression with stairs, rather than going into a room, spending a little time, skipping content, and have that room take you to another room somewhere else.
Finally, it doesn't make much sense for an elevator to NOT be capable of taking you from the bottom floor to the top foor. Letting players go from the bottom floor to the top floor is too much in a hardcore game imo, which means we now need keycards or broken elevators. Every now and again keys and the like, or fix the broken thing miniquests, are nice, but I'd rather not have them everywhere. Using stairs removes the need for elevator key cards and miniquests.
I never knew I could rant on the topic of in game elevators.
Raidan said:I'm not typically a fan of any modern technology that doesn't fit the game world. Guns used to always be a big one for me in a fantasy setting (when the main weapons were swords/knives/staves etc.) Who would bring a sword to a gun fight...?. Elevators usually would fit that mold for me. Now, if the elevators were the result of some gnomish tinkering/engineering, then it wouldn't be so bothersome.
Guns were created before elevators were.
Beefcake said:Raidan said:I'm not typically a fan of any modern technology that doesn't fit the game world. Guns used to always be a big one for me in a fantasy setting (when the main weapons were swords/knives/staves etc.) Who would bring a sword to a gun fight...?. Elevators usually would fit that mold for me. Now, if the elevators were the result of some gnomish tinkering/engineering, then it wouldn't be so bothersome.
Guns were created before elevators were.
Thanks for the lesson, my point is I'd rather not see either unless there's a logical explanation within the game world
Beefcake said:Raidan said:I'm not typically a fan of any modern technology that doesn't fit the game world. Guns used to always be a big one for me in a fantasy setting (when the main weapons were swords/knives/staves etc.) Who would bring a sword to a gun fight...?. Elevators usually would fit that mold for me. Now, if the elevators were the result of some gnomish tinkering/engineering, then it wouldn't be so bothersome.
Guns were created before elevators were.
They were also unreliable and slow in their earliest forms, which was during an era of human history that could very well be a fantasy setting.
The answer to his question: who would bring a sword to a gun fight?
A smart person who knows that guns, being new technology, are not trustworthy and are slow. Just because guns exist in a fantasy setting doesn't mean that they are godly.
Honestly I feel this entire topic is really nitpicky. This is a fantasy world were an entire city is FLOATING IN THE AIR. I think it'd be fairly easy to create an elevator. Even mechanical elevators could exist in this world and the mechanism for lift could be hidden behind a wall and such. It's called suspension of disbalief. Without it there is no fantasy.
Although I love steam punk and like to see it in fantasy games, I don't like to see it solely as an excuse to bring modern things into games.
I can't find the post, but I thought it was from Joppa, maybe someone else, which stated the steam punk would not have a large presence in Pantheon. The tech level would be more like Archimedes.
EDIT: Found it.
Istuulamae said:Amris said:1. Will one of the races be "gadget oriented"? If so, what level of technology will they have? And which race?
2a. Can we expect guns, motorcycles, and other high technology? 2b. Or will it be limited to things like scopes, compasses, and the like?
I ask because, as you likely know, WoW has these things, and I'm personally not a fan of the guns and motorcycles, lol.
3. Will the technology be Steampunk style, or something else?
Thank you! :)
(I did a search for guns, technology, motorcycles, machines, and engineering (I thought sure there'd be tradeskill discussion on it).)
1. Giving allowances for everyone's personal definition of the word Gadget, I don't see anyone using small compustible engines or anything like that. The Gnomes would be "the most" interested and capable of using the arcane to serve as the "power" for a thing, but they won't slap it on a WW2 era Truimph and go scurrying around the world. It's the arcane they prize, not gadgetry or even mechanization in and of itself.
2a. No. No. Eh. 2b. Scopes and compasses are a good example of high but common tech in the world.
3. Not very much we've done fits cleanly back into a traditional mold. So steam or pressure based instruments won't be steampunky just because there's already a fictional archetype out there. Steam and pressure have loads of historical applications and predecessors in our own world, and while this is fantasy I'm wary of creative shortcuts that harm the overall rules of Pantheon's reality. One item can suddenly make the world seem very flimsy and poorly vetted. I'm more interested in exploring Archimedian tech, or a synergizing of the arcane supplying the engine for "machinery" like I mentioned with the Gnomes. But the style and presentation is critical for obvious reasons.
Hope this helps!
kellindil said:Honestly I feel this entire topic is really nitpicky. This is a fantasy world were an entire city is FLOATING IN THE AIR. I think it'd be fairly easy to create an elevator. Even mechanical elevators could exist in this world and the mechanism for lift could be hidden behind a wall and such. It's called suspension of disbalief. Without it there is no fantasy.
You're 100% right that it's nitpicky. But surely we're expected to pick a few nits while we wait through development? :) In any case, I was just curious to see if anyone else has this particular beef with elevators in fantasy games because I do think many times they reflect lazy design and have drawbacks such as the ones I've mentioned and other people have added to.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with realism. Floating cities, underwater sentient races, even player skills will have a background in game lore and I'm perfectly fine with that. But magic everywhere can be off-putting. Yes you can solve this by hinting at hidden mechanisms powering the elevators, but that doesn't address the design and gameplay issues of elevators mentioned before.
Elevators have been around for a long time. They were called hoists back then and were primarily used to move materials, and were operated by animals or slaves and in some cases water wheels.
Now I agree, a old cave or ruined castle have a functioning magical elevator can seem out of place. But then on the other hand we have people in robes shooting fireballs out of their hands, others raising skeletons to fight along side of them, as well as we fight giant creatures taking alot of damage, then move on to the next creature within moments without tending wounds or barely resting.
There is realism, and then there is gameplay. Sometimes realism has to take a back seat for the sake of accomplishing the goal of the developers. Stairs or ramps are not always practical in the design of an encounter.
daemonios said:You're 100% right that it's nitpicky. But surely we're expected to pick a few nits while we wait through development? :) In any case, I was just curious to see if anyone else has this particular beef with elevators in fantasy games because I do think many times they reflect lazy design and have drawbacks such as the ones I've mentioned and other people have added to.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with realism. Floating cities, underwater sentient races, even player skills will have a background in game lore and I'm perfectly fine with that. But magic everywhere can be off-putting. Yes you can solve this by hinting at hidden mechanisms powering the elevators, but that doesn't address the design and gameplay issues of elevators mentioned before.
I get that some people "just don't like it" and thats fine and all. I personally couldn't care less either way if elevators are a thing or not.
As for the game play issues, this is easily solved by tuning. During beta if we see an elevator in a dungeon and there are several groups standing there waiting, then the zone layout is obviously bad and needs to be fixed. If an elevator spans more than a single floor, except for certain areas like the tower in the stream, then they should change the floor plan and make two elevators in different locations leading to the other floors. The issues you are talking about aren't issues with elevators but with poor zone layout as I see it.
An elevator is VERY simplistic technology and would fit directly into the level of tech that Joppa was talking about.
Technology like steam engines, internal combustion engines, electronics, and other post industrial revolution type technology I can understand shouldn't be included in this game world.
kellindil said:daemonios said:You're 100% right that it's nitpicky. But surely we're expected to pick a few nits while we wait through development? :) In any case, I was just curious to see if anyone else has this particular beef with elevators in fantasy games because I do think many times they reflect lazy design and have drawbacks such as the ones I've mentioned and other people have added to.
Mind you, this has nothing to do with realism. Floating cities, underwater sentient races, even player skills will have a background in game lore and I'm perfectly fine with that. But magic everywhere can be off-putting. Yes you can solve this by hinting at hidden mechanisms powering the elevators, but that doesn't address the design and gameplay issues of elevators mentioned before.
I get that some people "just don't like it" and thats fine and all. I personally couldn't care less either way if elevators are a thing or not.
As for the game play issues, this is easily solved by tuning. During beta if we see an elevator in a dungeon and there are several groups standing there waiting, then the zone layout is obviously bad and needs to be fixed. If an elevator spans more than a single floor, except for certain areas like the tower in the stream, then they should change the floor plan and make two elevators in different locations leading to the other floors. The issues you are talking about aren't issues with elevators but with poor zone layout as I see it.
An elevator is VERY simplistic technology and would fit directly into the level of tech that Joppa was talking about.
Technology like steam engines, internal combustion engines, electronics, and other post industrial revolution type technology I can understand shouldn't be included in this game world.
I agree. Not once in my life have I thought it strange that there are elevators in fantasy MMOs. Although I get the impression that the OP's point is that we should be able to actually SEE the ropes, pulleys, counterweights, etc. in motion, rather than just sliding like the Kelethin lifts in EQ. That would definitely be cool, but it's still a minor aesthetic detail imo.
So basically magi-tech is okay to a certain degree and kind of explains things like elevators (mostly gnomish?). Steam and pressure based systems might appear in proper context.
But high tech or more modern tech wont be a thing.
Honestly, Im slightly disappointed in the confirmation of there being no guns. But I'll get over it. Besides that gives a bit more clarity on future class direction. So things like a gunner class o an engineer class are just not going to happen (even though I think they would suit Gnomes perfectly). To each his own I suppose.
@Beefcake
Thanks for the link. I had missed this one.
Beefcake said:Guns were created before elevators were.
Elevators are ancient technology. They pre-date guns.
"Greek scientist and inventor Archimedes (287 BC – c. 212 BC) created the first elevator that was based on pulleys and winches around 236 BC. He wound the rope around the wheel and attached two weights on its ends. If one of the weights was lighter then the other, then it can be easily be risen to top. To make elevator to stop more easily, Greeks often used platforms with equal weights and human workers would operate the wheel on the top. This design proved to be quite popular in Ancient Greek and its use was widespread.
The most complex elevator system of the ancient times was made in Roman Empire at the Colosseum Arena in 1st century BC. It hosted 24 elevator cages which were operated by the human force of 224 slaves. Teams of 8 slaves worked on a single winch (one of 28), who then gave life to the complicated system of pulleys leavers and ropes who finally delivered their deadly cargo to the arena floor. In a peak usage moments, all 24 cages could be brought up and down from the floor to the basements in the matter of seconds."
Personally, I don't care. Elevators/lifts don't bother me at all and while it would be nice to (depending on where it is placed) see the ropes and such, it isn't terribly important or immersion breaking to me. In a world of magic who knows what kinds of things are happening behind the scenes. If we have levitate spells then I think a platform that levitates up and down isn't too nutty of an idea.
Raidan said:I'm not typically a fan of any modern technology that doesn't fit the game world. Guns used to always be a big one for me in a fantasy setting (when the main weapons were swords/knives/staves etc.) Who would bring a sword to a gun fight...?. Elevators usually would fit that mold for me. Now, if the elevators were the result of some gnomish tinkering/engineering, then it wouldn't be so bothersome.
I hope this helps you for immersion :-)
The earliest known reference to an elevator is in the works of the Roman architect Vitruvius, who reported that Archimedes (c. 287 BC – c. 212 BC) built his first elevator probably in 236 BC.[9] Some sources from later historical periods mention elevators as cabs on a hemp rope powered by hand or by animals.
NOTE: Iksar I don't know how I missed your post, but I am sorry for basically posting the same thing as you
Iksar said:Beefcake said:Guns were created before elevators were.
Elevators are ancient technology. They pre-date guns.
"Greek scientist and inventor Archimedes (287 BC – c. 212 BC) created the first elevator that was based on pulleys and winches around 236 BC. He wound the rope around the wheel and attached two weights on its ends. If one of the weights was lighter then the other, then it can be easily be risen to top. To make elevator to stop more easily, Greeks often used platforms with equal weights and human workers would operate the wheel on the top. This design proved to be quite popular in Ancient Greek and its use was widespread.
The most complex elevator system of the ancient times was made in Roman Empire at the Colosseum Arena in 1st century BC. It hosted 24 elevator cages which were operated by the human force of 224 slaves. Teams of 8 slaves worked on a single winch (one of 28), who then gave life to the complicated system of pulleys leavers and ropes who finally delivered their deadly cargo to the arena floor. In a peak usage moments, all 24 cages could be brought up and down from the floor to the basements in the matter of seconds."
Personally, I don't care. Elevators/lifts don't bother me at all and while it would be nice to (depending on where it is placed) see the ropes and such, it isn't terribly important or immersion breaking to me. In a world of magic who knows what kinds of things are happening behind the scenes. If we have levitate spells then I think a platform that levitates up and down isn't too nutty of an idea.
Fine, I will give you a +/- 100 years.
"Chinese taoist alchemists were the major force behind the early invention of gunpowder. Emperor Wu Di (156-87 B.C.) of the Han dynasty financed research done by the alchemists on the secrets of eternal life. The alchemists experimented with the sulphur and saltpeter heating the substances in order to transform them. The alchemist Wei Boyang wrote the Book of the Kinship of the Three detailing the experiments made by the alchemists."
However, the elevators you refer to were not similar to the ones displayed game. Of course, the early gun powder was also not used for firearms either.
Now, we are all properly educated.
