Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Dual Specialization

    • 187 posts
    May 16, 2017 9:08 PM PDT

    Even though I love the idea of a definitive branched specialization system, where at some level Druid's can choose to become a Terraformer (environment/climate manipulator) or a Vitalist (life force manipulator), for example, I have a feeling that VR will implement specialization in a much more subtle way - one similar to how specializations in EQ1 took place. I predict that the class' skills will all have a base level cap and, at a certain level, a player selected specialization will alleviate the caps of a particular set of skills allowing spells which use those skills to become more efficient/potent. 

    Now, I'd be ok with this approach if they also included the following: 1) Specialized spells which have an increased dependence on a particular skill (such that if a "specialized spell" falls into the hands of a non-specialist, their fizzle rate, which could not improve due to the base skill cap, would render the use of the spell as too inefficient in a group setting, maybe these are primal and/or epic scrolls/spells), 2) a distinct set of equipment which reinforces all aspects of the specialization (looks, skills, stats, possibly even alternative epics), 3) have the specialization be significant enough to where groups won't shoehorn you into a roll you wouldn't like to play (in our example, a climate/environment specialized Druid's healing capabilities would no longer be potent enough to be considered a primary skillset for groups).

    • 3237 posts
    May 16, 2017 10:35 PM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    oneADseven said: You can still have a Body monk and a Soul monk in the same raid. Allowing multi specialization does nothing more than add player flexibility. Let's say you have 3 monks ... 1 master, 1 body, 1 soul. If the body or soul are unavailable, the master can flex in and play whatever is needed. Master monk couldn't be both at once ... but rather be able to rotate between them as needed. Not every monk would be the same. You could have 2 master monks that both have entirely different hotbars.

    I understand what your saying but i have to agree with Dul on this one if there is 2 specs but you can master both of them then there isn't really anypoint in having them, you might has well not have the dual spec system, granted it might be easier to fully progress your character with it not being there, but it doesn't make you feel any different than another monk if you could maser both becuase in a few months to maybe 8 months most decent players would max out both and wouldn't make you feel any different than the others, but if you get stuck with one and you choose Soul, and had 4 other monks in your guild and they choose Body, you would always know there were things you could do that they couldn't and vise versa.

     

    Plus having it to where you could switch back and forth between the two sounds way to much like WoW, and honestly there are a ton of things that they did after vanilla that really started to ruin the game for a ton of players so lets not try to make the same mistakes on this game.

     

    There is no reason there couldn't be 3 "master monks" who all bring a unique flavor to combat.  1 full Body, 1 full Soul, 1 hybrid Body/Soul.  The point about there being no reason to offer specialization because you can master both is null to me.  It's called progression and that's pretty important in an MMO.  If people think it's cool to be handcuffed to a single spec, hey, that's your opinion.  I always prefer player/character empowerment/flexibility if given the choice.  I would like to play raid tank for a few hours and then switch to my more group friendly spec in the same evening.  Call me greedy but I want to enjoy all aspects of my class, especially any sort of meaningful progression.  I think it would be super cool if players earned an extra slot on their hotbars for every specialization they master (+2 total if you master both) and the path of progression for doing such to be of epic proportion.  Earning new abilities and an extra slot on the hotbar could be tied into the "Rites of Passage" and be used as major developmental curve for our overall power progression.  I mentioned this somewhere else, but I also think it would be cool if Progeny was tied into this somehow.  I know that isn't the purpose for Progeny, but I think it would be awesome if you rolled a first generation monk as Body, and then second generation as Soul, that's how you would get your "Master Monk."

    FFXI did a great job encouarging people to reroll through lower level content by offering sub-classes.  It kept all level ranges populated with veteran players and offered consistent group activity options for players as a result.  I know a lot of people hate the grind ... I don't.  I would love to grind through the game twice on the same class and there be some sort of progression tied into it ... especially a master class!  That would be awesome!  It's probably way too hardcore for most though and that's a bummer.  It is what it is ... I'm still clinging onto the hope of seeing a super deep progression tree for my character similar to how EQOA was with AA's, or FFXI did with sub-classes.  AA's in EQ2 sucked.  Talent trees in WoW sucked.  They have FotM written all over them and it's super annoying having to switch specs in the city.  Pantheon will have us switching around our bars while out of combat all the time ... that's something we'll just have to get used to.  The more tools we have in our kit, the more we can experiment with emergent gameplay.  The more flexible our characters can be (while staying true to their class)  --  the more likely they'll be able to find groups without having to sacrifice their "raid" or "solo" spec.  Did I mention how cool it would feel to actually master a second specialization?  This isn't something just "everybody" will do.  It should require a ton of work ... that's why they call it specialization, or mastery.  Learning a second specialization would feel much more meaningful and gratifying than obtaining an epic weapon for me, and it fits in well with many of the tenets for this game.

    • 1584 posts
    May 17, 2017 5:53 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    oneADseven said: You can still have a Body monk and a Soul monk in the same raid. Allowing multi specialization does nothing more than add player flexibility. Let's say you have 3 monks ... 1 master, 1 body, 1 soul. If the body or soul are unavailable, the master can flex in and play whatever is needed. Master monk couldn't be both at once ... but rather be able to rotate between them as needed. Not every monk would be the same. You could have 2 master monks that both have entirely different hotbars.

    I understand what your saying but i have to agree with Dul on this one if there is 2 specs but you can master both of them then there isn't really anypoint in having them, you might has well not have the dual spec system, granted it might be easier to fully progress your character with it not being there, but it doesn't make you feel any different than another monk if you could maser both becuase in a few months to maybe 8 months most decent players would max out both and wouldn't make you feel any different than the others, but if you get stuck with one and you choose Soul, and had 4 other monks in your guild and they choose Body, you would always know there were things you could do that they couldn't and vise versa.

     

    Plus having it to where you could switch back and forth between the two sounds way to much like WoW, and honestly there are a ton of things that they did after vanilla that really started to ruin the game for a ton of players so lets not try to make the same mistakes on this game.

     

    There is no reason there couldn't be 3 "master monks" who all bring a unique flavor to combat.  1 full Body, 1 full Soul, 1 hybrid Body/Soul.  The point about there being no reason to offer specialization because you can master both is null to me.  It's called progression and that's pretty important in an MMO.  If people think it's cool to be handcuffed to a single spec, hey, that's your opinion.  I always prefer player/character empowerment/flexibility if given the choice.  I would like to play raid tank for a few hours and then switch to my more group friendly spec in the same evening.  Call me greedy but I want to enjoy all aspects of my class, especially any sort of meaningful progression.  I think it would be super cool if players earned an extra slot on their hotbars for every specialization they master (+2 total if you master both) and the path of progression for doing such to be of epic proportion.  Earning new abilities and an extra slot on the hotbar could be tied into the "Rites of Passage" and be used as major developmental curve for our overall power progression.  I mentioned this somewhere else, but I also think it would be cool if Progeny was tied into this somehow.  I know that isn't the purpose for Progeny, but I think it would be awesome if you rolled a first generation monk as Body, and then second generation as Soul, that's how you would get your "Master Monk."

    FFXI did a great job encouarging people to reroll through lower level content by offering sub-classes.  It kept all level ranges populated with veteran players and offered consistent group activity options for players as a result.  I know a lot of people hate the grind ... I don't.  I would love to grind through the game twice on the same class and there be some sort of progression tied into it ... especially a master class!  That would be awesome!  It's probably way too hardcore for most though and that's a bummer.  It is what it is ... I'm still clinging onto the hope of seeing a super deep progression tree for my character similar to how EQOA was with AA's, or FFXI did with sub-classes.  AA's in EQ2 sucked.  Talent trees in WoW sucked.  They have FotM written all over them and it's super annoying having to switch specs in the city.  Pantheon will have us switching around our bars while out of combat all the time ... that's something we'll just have to get used to.  The more tools we have in our kit, the more we can experiment with emergent gameplay.  The more flexible our characters can be (while staying true to their class)  --  the more likely they'll be able to find groups without having to sacrifice their "raid" or "solo" spec.  Did I mention how cool it would feel to actually master a second specialization?  This isn't something just "everybody" will do.  It should require a ton of work ... that's why they call it specialization, or mastery.  Learning a second specialization would feel much more meaningful and gratifying than obtaining an epic weapon for me, and it fits in well with many of the tenets for this game.

    You could also make the Body and Soul trees big enough to where you wouldn't want to even think about pointing points in the other spec, plus im sure if they did dual specing i doubt you could hybrid between the 2 they seem very different and don't seem to mix well for what ive seen except for the "mend" soul gets.  Could be wrong, and we aren't saying you to to be hand cuffed just saying you have to make a choice, and stick with it i wouldn't mind if you could unlearn one to choose the other down the road and keep doing that.  PLus if they make the specs big enough you could have 5 soul monks completely different than one another you don't need mess around in the body spec to achieve this.  You call mastering both as progression and i call it pointless, there no point in having 2 specs if you can master both at the same time, you choose one and reap the rewards on the spec or the other one, but constantly flipping between the 2 in between battles?  there's not even a challenge in that i say if your soul when you walked into that enviroment your walking out as soul, none of this yeah while in XYZ i was soul for 200 of the fihgt and 201 as body, that just sounds lame honestly.  Also like i was trying to point out if there is 2 specs and you can simply just flip between the 2 in between combats than why even have them?  makes way for sense to be stuck as one and feel that sense of being different than be the only soul monk in one fight than have 7 other join you in the fight simply becuase of out of combat.  You see getting your mastery as hard work, i dont but what i do see is if you can master both some guilds might require you to do so, simply because of the perks, and im sticking to my guns you choose one your stuck with it until you can change or simply can't change makes no difference to me, 

    • 3237 posts
    May 17, 2017 6:02 AM PDT

    I never said you could flip stuff around while in combat.  I've said the opposite, many, many times.  Pantheon has an emphasis on switching your hotbars around while out of combat.  Why have a bunch of different quests in the game when someone can just do all of them?  Why not just create a single quest since all of the others would be pointless?  Why allow characters to have adventure, crafting, and perception abilities?  Why not just make everything adventure, crafting, or perception since the others would all be useless?  Why allow our characers to have 20+ gear slots ... everybody is just going to use them all anyway.  Why not just roll all of it into a single item slot called "Suit" to keep things simple?  As far as guilds requiring you to have both specs mastered in order to join, what is wrong with that???  Should we not have epic weapons, levels, spell qualities, gear, etc, as they can all be used as factors for joining a guild?  Some guilds will only take max level players ... should we just remove levels?  For clarity, the spec switching could only happen while out of combat.  It would allow players to set up their bars/stance/spec in between encounters, adjusting as necessary.  Making people do a long quest to switch between them is crap.  That's handcuffing.  I'd rather be a free bird than a caged one.

    • 65 posts
    May 17, 2017 6:59 AM PDT

    Anyone on the dev team able to make an intial statement about the way specializations are intended to work in this game? I realize the plans are probably not set in stone but would be nice to hear what the ideas are behind them so far. May newsletter was informative but left a lot of unanswered questions.


    This post was edited by torveld at May 17, 2017 6:59 AM PDT
    • 1778 posts
    May 17, 2017 7:44 AM PDT
    Class paths or specs have been talked about by the devs. But basically its not been decided. And is probably something they will test in alpha/beta. Also what has been shown in the Monk reveal could change. This could just be the first step for testers to see if paths or specialization make it into the final product.
    • 1584 posts
    May 17, 2017 7:54 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I never said you could flip stuff around while in combat.  I've said the opposite, many, many times.  Pantheon has an emphasis on switching your hotbars around while out of combat.  Why have a bunch of different quests in the game when someone can just do all of them?  Why not just create a single quest since all of the others would be pointless?  Why allow characters to have adventure, crafting, and perception abilities?  Why not just make everything adventure, crafting, or perception since the others would all be useless?  Why allow our characers to have 20+ gear slots ... everybody is just going to use them all anyway.  Why not just roll all of it into a single item slot called "Suit" to keep things simple?  As far as guilds requiring you to have both specs mastered in order to join, what is wrong with that???  Should we not have epic weapons, levels, spell qualities, gear, etc, as they can all be used as factors for joining a guild?  Some guilds will only take max level players ... should we just remove levels?  For clarity, the spec switching could only happen while out of combat.  It would allow players to set up their bars/stance/spec in between encounters, adjusting as necessary.  Making people do a long quest to switch between them is crap.  That's handcuffing.  I'd rather be a free bird than a caged one.

    Well the biggest point is that it doesn't make you feel any different than any other class is the biggest thing, and you really blew things out of proportion there with basically everything else, and im still saying you choose a spec and you stick with it, no switching out of combat or nothing if you choose one you stuck with it, call in hand cuffing if you want but it makes the choice you make even more important of what kind of player you want to be in the world, your way simply makes it not matter at all for you open up everything in his arsenal and if you do that theres no point in having a class if it has 8 different specs if you can be them all shot it could be 100 and wouldn't make a difference, reason why im sticking to you choose one and you are that type period.  

     

    Plus VR has made it abuntly clear that you will be playing a particluar role choosin by class, and i believe this should also be due to what spec you pick as well, becuase basically for the monk spec you have "body" which is a pure dps spec by what ive gathered and "soul" which seems to be more of a "OT" spec, so switching out between the two even when out of combat goes against what VR has planned for this game.  


    This post was edited by Cealtric at May 17, 2017 8:31 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    May 17, 2017 8:17 AM PDT

    Amsai said: Class paths or specs have been talked about by the devs. But basically its not been decided. And is probably something they will test in alpha/beta. Also what has been shown in the Monk reveal could change. This could just be the first step for testers to see if paths or specialization make it into the final product.

    Unless you have a cited source for that, Amsai, I would advise caution in stating such things as facts.  So, if you know that to be 100% for certain true, it would be great to hear where a Pantheon dev said that.

    Core design decisions like this aren't things you test in alpha or beta.  Sub-classes (which is what this COULD be) is a one-way decision.  One-time choices for specialization are sub-classes.
    You don't say "Hey, let's test sub-classes" you say "We are putting sub-classes in the game" and then much of  your content is designed around that.  EQ2 had subclasses.  It determined everything about character progression, and thus about combat balance and encounter balance.

    It's a huge deal, and will determine a large part of the overall direction of the game.  That the developers are not confirming/denying it is very worrisome, to me.  Either it means they have no plan, or they have the plan and simply aren't inclined to share it.  Both varying shades of "bad".

    • 999 posts
    May 17, 2017 8:41 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Amsai said: Class paths or specs have been talked about by the devs. But basically its not been decided. And is probably something they will test in alpha/beta. Also what has been shown in the Monk reveal could change. This could just be the first step for testers to see if paths or specialization make it into the final product.

    Unless you have a cited source for that, Amsai, I would advise caution in stating such things as facts.  So, if you know that to be 100% for certain true, it would be great to hear where a Pantheon dev said that.

    Core design decisions like this aren't things you test in alpha or beta.  Sub-classes (which is what this COULD be) is a one-way decision.  One-time choices for specialization are sub-classes.
    You don't say "Hey, let's test sub-classes" you say "We are putting sub-classes in the game" and then much of  your content is designed around that.  EQ2 had subclasses.  It determined everything about character progression, and thus about combat balance and encounter balance.

    It's a huge deal, and will determine a large part of the overall direction of the game.  That the developers are not confirming/denying it is very worrisome, to me.  Either it means they have no plan, or they have the plan and simply aren't inclined to share it.  Both varying shades of "bad".

    Dual specializations have been discussed as early as the Kickstarter.  Amsai is not misspeaking or considering anything as fact.  You're fully entitled to worry, but, until anything is concrete, everything is speculation.  And, as of today, until dual specializations are confirmed to be off the table, it is safe to say they are still being considered.  To his second point on whether that is something that will "probably" be tested in alpha/beta will be determined based on whether they are part of the core design or not (as you correctly stated)  The VR devs have been on record with many systems to say if it doesn't play as intended or goes aganist the core tenets, the system will be scrapped, so I don't think it's a stretch to say that if dual specializations were/are considered and they're found to be detrimental to the core vision that they would be treated any differently.

    • 3237 posts
    May 17, 2017 9:02 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    oneADseven said:

    I never said you could flip stuff around while in combat.  I've said the opposite, many, many times.  Pantheon has an emphasis on switching your hotbars around while out of combat.  Why have a bunch of different quests in the game when someone can just do all of them?  Why not just create a single quest since all of the others would be pointless?  Why allow characters to have adventure, crafting, and perception abilities?  Why not just make everything adventure, crafting, or perception since the others would all be useless?  Why allow our characers to have 20+ gear slots ... everybody is just going to use them all anyway.  Why not just roll all of it into a single item slot called "Suit" to keep things simple?  As far as guilds requiring you to have both specs mastered in order to join, what is wrong with that???  Should we not have epic weapons, levels, spell qualities, gear, etc, as they can all be used as factors for joining a guild?  Some guilds will only take max level players ... should we just remove levels?  For clarity, the spec switching could only happen while out of combat.  It would allow players to set up their bars/stance/spec in between encounters, adjusting as necessary.  Making people do a long quest to switch between them is crap.  That's handcuffing.  I'd rather be a free bird than a caged one.

    Well the biggest point is that it doesn't make you feel any different than any other class is the biggest thing, and you really blew things out of proportion there with basically everything else, and im still saying you choose a spec and you stick with it, no switching out of combat or nothing if you choose one you stuck with it, call in hand cuffing if you want but it makes the choice you make even more important of what kind of player you want to be in the world, your way simply makes it not matter at all for you open up everything in his arsenal and if you do that theres no point in having a class if it has 8 different specs if you can be them all shot it could be 100 and wouldn't make a difference, reason why im sticking to you choose one and you are that type period.  and yes i blew things out of proportion due to you over reacting

    Plus VR has made it abuntly clear that you will be playing a particluar role choosin by class, and i believe this should also be due to what spec you pick as well, becuase basically for the monk spec you have "body" which is a pure dps spec by what ive gathered and "soul" which seems to be more of a "OT" spec, so switching out between the two even when out of combat goes against what VR has planned for this game. 

    It's basic fundamentals.  Pantheon will be a game that emphasizes switching up your gear and ability/spell bars in between fights.  It won't be possible for a character to "open up everything in his arsenel" at any given time.  I would like to use rogues as an example.  Let's say they get a DPS spec and a debuff/utility spec.  Let's say the DPS spec is ideal for 75% of content and the other spec is ideal for the rest.  The debuff spec would probably shine on raid content and that's great!  But what about when the raid is over?  Should he be hand-cuffed to his raid spec because he was a good teammate that sacrificed his own personal DPS measurables for the betterment of the raid?  What if he wants to go grind a dungeon and a group needs a high damage melee DPS?  What if the "kind of player he wants to be in the world" is one that is flexible and that can fill multiple rogue roles?  What happens when a guild requires a rogue to be the debuff spec because it's necessary for a difficult encounter?  It sounds miserable.  Unless both specs for each class are going to be 50/50 viable, we'll be dealing with FotM.  We'll be dealing with players that want to play one way, but can't because groups or raids find "the other spec" more desirable.  Yeah, miserable indeed.

    Then of course you have the guy who levels up and chooses the debuff spec for the sake of his guild, but then it gets nerfed, or the other spec gets a huge buff.  Sorry guy, that was the kind of player you wanted to be in the world ... you're stuck with it!  Making that choice permanent is indeed handcuffing and it's very lame.  Many players don't enjoy being handcuffed.  They want to play the game their way.  They want to come up with their own fun/flavorful spec that they can use when and how they want but that can create huge conflicts when it comes to finding a spot in a group or raid where that spec is not ideal.  So again ... that's why I suggest that these specializations be used as a form of progression.  Most rogues would probably level up the DPS spec first because that's more universally applicable.  Down the road, they can then master the art of debuffing ... a specialization they can bring to the table for their raid team when called upon.  They don't have to "unlearn" all of the skills they "mastered" with the other spec to do it, either.  Hotbars will be limited ... it won't be a matter of every rogue being the same.  You could have 3 rogues in a raid that are all using different kits.  Flexibility is important!!!  I can't stress that enough.  Handcuffing players to a single spec makes as much sense as saying "Well you chose a sword as your weapon for now so that will be your permanent weapon of choice moving forward.  You like that axe?  Sorry, it's been determined that the kind of player you will be in this world is a swordsman."

    The biggest issue I have with handcuffing is this ... apparently, grouping will comprise the majority of content in the game.  It would make sense, then, that most players would choose whatever spec is better suited for group level content.  Raiding on the other hand will be limited.  If a player chooses to spec for the betterment of their raid, they are handcuffing themselves to a spec that is only suited for a limited portion of content.  How is that fair?  Should players really have to choose?  What if the raid spec absolutely sucks for grouping?  What if a high level monk wants to mess around and do some solo farming?  If he specs for solo, should he then be less than ideal for groups and raids forever?  What's wrong with allowing players to progress their characters and master all of the abilities, and do it in the order that they choose?  Maybe there is a guy that wants to start off on the solo path first ... maybe there is a rogue that leveled up specifically for his guild that needs his important debuffs.  Maybe someone has a change of heart and decides they want to try a different playstyle?

    The fact that our hotbars will be limited nullifies the remark of "every monk is the same if you allow them to learn both specs."  You could have 2 "Body" monks on the same raid who have entirely different kits.  At the end of the day, I will choose freedom and flexibility over handcuffing and restriction.  What you are asking for sounds like an artificial progression barrier for the sake of making characters different.  What I want is the ability for characters of any given class to differentiate themselves from their peers through progression.  Eventually, if everybody becomes a "master rogue" they would indeed have "access" to the same kits.  But that will never mean that all master rogues are the same.  It means the exact opposite.  It provides a much bigger range of potential builds that can be utilized.  Again ... all of this is based on the idea of us having very limited hotbars.  Situational gear, situational hotbars.  That's the vision that has been portrayed to me.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 17, 2017 9:12 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    May 17, 2017 9:44 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    oneADseven said:

    I never said you could flip stuff around while in combat.  I've said the opposite, many, many times.  Pantheon has an emphasis on switching your hotbars around while out of combat.  Why have a bunch of different quests in the game when someone can just do all of them?  Why not just create a single quest since all of the others would be pointless?  Why allow characters to have adventure, crafting, and perception abilities?  Why not just make everything adventure, crafting, or perception since the others would all be useless?  Why allow our characers to have 20+ gear slots ... everybody is just going to use them all anyway.  Why not just roll all of it into a single item slot called "Suit" to keep things simple?  As far as guilds requiring you to have both specs mastered in order to join, what is wrong with that???  Should we not have epic weapons, levels, spell qualities, gear, etc, as they can all be used as factors for joining a guild?  Some guilds will only take max level players ... should we just remove levels?  For clarity, the spec switching could only happen while out of combat.  It would allow players to set up their bars/stance/spec in between encounters, adjusting as necessary.  Making people do a long quest to switch between them is crap.  That's handcuffing.  I'd rather be a free bird than a caged one.

    Well the biggest point is that it doesn't make you feel any different than any other class is the biggest thing, and you really blew things out of proportion there with basically everything else, and im still saying you choose a spec and you stick with it, no switching out of combat or nothing if you choose one you stuck with it, call in hand cuffing if you want but it makes the choice you make even more important of what kind of player you want to be in the world, your way simply makes it not matter at all for you open up everything in his arsenal and if you do that theres no point in having a class if it has 8 different specs if you can be them all shot it could be 100 and wouldn't make a difference, reason why im sticking to you choose one and you are that type period.  and yes i blew things out of proportion due to you over reacting

    Plus VR has made it abuntly clear that you will be playing a particluar role choosin by class, and i believe this should also be due to what spec you pick as well, becuase basically for the monk spec you have "body" which is a pure dps spec by what ive gathered and "soul" which seems to be more of a "OT" spec, so switching out between the two even when out of combat goes against what VR has planned for this game. 

    It's basic fundamentals.  Pantheon will be a game that emphasizes switching up your gear and ability/spell bars in between fights.  It won't be possible for a character to "open up everything in his arsenel" at any given time.  I would like to use rogues as an example.  Let's say they get a DPS spec and a debuff/utility spec.  Let's say the DPS spec is ideal for 75% of content and the other spec is ideal for the rest.  The debuff spec would probably shine on raid content and that's great!  But what about when the raid is over?  Should he be hand-cuffed to his raid spec because he was a good teammate that sacrificed his own personal DPS measurables for the betterment of the raid?  What if he wants to go grind a dungeon and a group needs a high damage melee DPS?  What if the "kind of player he wants to be in the world" is one that is flexible and that can fill multiple rogue roles?  What happens when a guild requires a rogue to be the debuff spec because it's necessary for a difficult encounter?  It sounds miserable.  Unless both specs for each class are going to be 50/50 viable, we'll be dealing with FotM.  We'll be dealing with players that want to play one way, but can't because groups or raids find "the other spec" more desirable.  Yeah, miserable indeed.

    Then of course you have the guy who levels up and chooses the debuff spec for the sake of his guild, but then it gets nerfed, or the other spec gets a huge buff.  Sorry guy, that was the kind of player you wanted to be in the world ... you're stuck with it!  Making that choice permanent is indeed handcuffing and it's very lame.  Many players don't enjoy being handcuffed.  They want to play the game their way.  They want to come up with their own fun/flavorful spec that they can use when and how they want but that can create huge conflicts when it comes to finding a spot in a group or raid where that spec is not ideal.  So again ... that's why I suggest that these specializations be used as a form of progression.  Most rogues would probably level up the DPS spec first because that's more universally applicable.  Down the road, they can then master the art of debuffing ... a specialization they can bring to the table for their raid team when called upon.  They don't have to "unlearn" all of the skills they "mastered" with the other spec to do it, either.  Hotbars will be limited ... it won't be a matter of every rogue being the same.  You could have 3 rogues in a raid that are all using different kits.  Flexibility is important!!!  I can't stress that enough.  Handcuffing players to a single spec makes as much sense as saying "Well you chose a sword as your weapon for now so that will be your permanent weapon of choice moving forward.  You like that axe?  Sorry, it's been determined that the kind of player you will be in this world is a swordsman."

    The biggest issue I have with handcuffing is this ... apparently, grouping will comprise the majority of content in the game.  It would make sense, then, that most players would choose whatever spec is better suited for group level content.  Raiding on the other hand will be limited.  If a player chooses to spec for the betterment of their raid, they are handcuffing themselves to a spec that is only suited for a limited portion of content.  How is that fair?  Should players really have to choose?  What if the raid spec absolutely sucks for grouping?  What if a high level monk wants to mess around and do some solo farming?  If he specs for solo, should he then be less than ideal for groups and raids forever?  What's wrong with allowing players to progress their characters and master all of the abilities, and do it in the order that they choose?  Maybe there is a guy that wants to start off on the solo path first ... maybe there is a rogue that leveled up specifically for his guild that needs his important debuffs.  Maybe someone has a change of heart and decides they want to try a different playstyle?

    The fact that our hotbars will be limited nullifies the remark of "every monk is the same if you allow them to learn both specs."  You could have 2 "Body" monks on the same raid who have entirely different kits.  At the end of the day, I will choose freedom and flexibility over handcuffing and restriction.  What you are asking for sounds like an artificial progression barrier for the sake of making characters different.  What I want is the ability for characters of any given class to differentiate themselves from their peers through progression.  Eventually, if everybody becomes a "master rogue" they would indeed have "access" to the same kits.  But that will never mean that all master rogues are the same.  It means the exact opposite.  It provides a much bigger range of potential builds that can be utilized.  Again ... all of this is based on the idea of us having very limited hotbars.  Situational gear, situational hotbars.  That's the vision that has been portrayed to me.

    We just have 2 different ideas when it comes to this, and i still think that if  you can be both specs might as well not even have them to begin with.  and also you are just assuming the debuffer of the rogue isnt as viable when i have a good feeling for one they will see where he might stop short in dps to make it die almost as fast or make killing the target be easier in geenral to make up for it so your not losing too much by not being your dps spec.  Plus the way i see it when it comes to nerfs and buffs of a class or spec it always happens, for one reason or another, I'm sorry if this feel to hand cuff for you, But like i said VR has it to where you will play a specific role by class, and specialaization in basically a differt way of playing your class so there fore you should be stuck with one fo them and not both.

    • 1434 posts
    May 17, 2017 10:01 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    The fact that our hotbars will be limited nullifies the remark of "every monk is the same if you allow them to learn both specs."  You could have 2 "Body" monks on the same raid who have entirely different kits.  At the end of the day, I will choose freedom and flexibility over handcuffing and restriction.  What you are asking for sounds like an artificial progression barrier for the sake of making characters different.  What I want is the ability for characters of any given class to differentiate themselves from their peers through progression.  Eventually, if everybody becomes a "master rogue" they would indeed have "access" to the same kits.  But that will never mean that all master rogues are the same.  It means the exact opposite.  It provides a much bigger range of potential builds that can be utilized.  Again ... all of this is based on the idea of us having very limited hotbars.  Situational gear, situational hotbars.  That's the vision that has been portrayed to me.

    By your logic, we should also be able to mix classes or at least change our class at will.

    I'm not against having the ability to change your specialization, but the argument that we are somehow "handcuffed" because we have to make a choice where we specialize just doesn't hold water.

    • 3237 posts
    May 17, 2017 10:07 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    oneADseven said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    oneADseven said:

    I never said you could flip stuff around while in combat.  I've said the opposite, many, many times.  Pantheon has an emphasis on switching your hotbars around while out of combat.  Why have a bunch of different quests in the game when someone can just do all of them?  Why not just create a single quest since all of the others would be pointless?  Why allow characters to have adventure, crafting, and perception abilities?  Why not just make everything adventure, crafting, or perception since the others would all be useless?  Why allow our characers to have 20+ gear slots ... everybody is just going to use them all anyway.  Why not just roll all of it into a single item slot called "Suit" to keep things simple?  As far as guilds requiring you to have both specs mastered in order to join, what is wrong with that???  Should we not have epic weapons, levels, spell qualities, gear, etc, as they can all be used as factors for joining a guild?  Some guilds will only take max level players ... should we just remove levels?  For clarity, the spec switching could only happen while out of combat.  It would allow players to set up their bars/stance/spec in between encounters, adjusting as necessary.  Making people do a long quest to switch between them is crap.  That's handcuffing.  I'd rather be a free bird than a caged one.

    Well the biggest point is that it doesn't make you feel any different than any other class is the biggest thing, and you really blew things out of proportion there with basically everything else, and im still saying you choose a spec and you stick with it, no switching out of combat or nothing if you choose one you stuck with it, call in hand cuffing if you want but it makes the choice you make even more important of what kind of player you want to be in the world, your way simply makes it not matter at all for you open up everything in his arsenal and if you do that theres no point in having a class if it has 8 different specs if you can be them all shot it could be 100 and wouldn't make a difference, reason why im sticking to you choose one and you are that type period.  and yes i blew things out of proportion due to you over reacting

    Plus VR has made it abuntly clear that you will be playing a particluar role choosin by class, and i believe this should also be due to what spec you pick as well, becuase basically for the monk spec you have "body" which is a pure dps spec by what ive gathered and "soul" which seems to be more of a "OT" spec, so switching out between the two even when out of combat goes against what VR has planned for this game. 

    SNIP

    We just have 2 different ideas when it comes to this, and i still think that if  you can be both specs might as well not even have them to begin with.  and also you are just assuming the debuffer of the rogue isnt as viable when i have a good feeling for one they will see where he might stop short in dps to make it die almost as fast or make killing the target be easier in geenral to make up for it so your not losing too much by not being your dps spec.  Plus the way i see it when it comes to nerfs and buffs of a class or spec it always happens, for one reason or another, I'm sorry if this feel to hand cuff for you, But like i said VR has it to where you will play a specific role by class, and specialaization in basically a differt way of playing your class so there fore you should be stuck with one fo them and not both.

    To each their own my friend.  I'm not going in-depth with any of this but I will tell you that it's a mistake to rule out the idea of players being able to learn multiple specs.  Unlikely?  Sure, I suppose.  But to say that it goes against VR's vision or plans for the game is an absolute fallacy and I will leave it at that.

    • 2752 posts
    May 17, 2017 10:12 AM PDT

    A crazy idea is not having these kinds of specializations at all! Let the classes be themselves and only offer minor specialization differences but no extra abilities locked behind them. Having 2+ specs and being able to learn both is "progression" just for the sake of itself but at the detriment of the community as a whole.

     

    I imagine the idea behind these kinds of specializations is to allow more diverse grouping compositions so you aren't so stuck waiting on X class so you can get going, so why not have it so all the tools of a druid/monk/war/etc are available to all people playing the class so players, based on which ways the class leans to begin with, can fill whichever role the group needs?

     

    vjek said:

    Amsai said: Class paths or specs have been talked about by the devs. But basically its not been decided. And is probably something they will test in alpha/beta. Also what has been shown in the Monk reveal could change. This could just be the first step for testers to see if paths or specialization make it into the final product.

    Unless you have a cited source for that, Amsai, I would advise caution in stating such things as facts.  So, if you know that to be 100% for certain true, it would be great to hear where a Pantheon dev said that.

    Core design decisions like this aren't things you test in alpha or beta.  Sub-classes (which is what this COULD be) is a one-way decision.  One-time choices for specialization are sub-classes. 
    You don't say "Hey, let's test sub-classes" you say "We are putting sub-classes in the game" and then much of  your content is designed around that.  EQ2 had subclasses.  It determined everything about character progression, and thus about combat balance and encounter balance.

    It's a huge deal, and will determine a large part of the overall direction of the game.  That the developers are not confirming/denying it is very worrisome, to me.  Either it means they have no plan, or they have the plan and simply aren't inclined to share it.  Both varying shades of "bad".

     

     5.2 Will Pantheon's classes have clear-cut roles such as the holy trinity (tank, healer, DPS) or will they be much more flexible/customizable?

    Pantheon does indeed use a class based system and those classes do fulfill roles especially in group and raid contexts. There will also be opportunities to focus each class on more specific and specialized roles, especially at higher levels. That said, because we feel it’s important that classes fulfill distinct roles, creating interdependence is vital to a fulfilling social and cooperative experience. If everyone is the same, this simply cannot be achieved. Likewise, if every class is absolutely unique, grouping can become overly complicated and, in some cases, certain classes could be less desirable to have in a group than others. To avoid this, Pantheon will use a quaternity system consisting of tank, healer, DPS, and crowd-control.


    This post was edited by Iksar at May 17, 2017 10:16 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    May 17, 2017 10:19 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    A crazy idea is not having these kinds of specializations at all! Let the classes be themselves and only offer minor specialization differences but no extra abilities locked behind them. Having 2+ specs and being able to learn both is "progression" just for the sake of itself but at the detriment of the community as a whole.

     

    I imagine the idea behind these kinds of specializations is to allow more diverse grouping compositions so you aren't so stuck waiting on X class so you can get going, so why not have it so all the tools of a druid/monk/war/etc are available to all people playing the class so players, based on which ways the class leans to begin with, can fill whichever role the group needs?

    Because you dont need to make Specialization to achieve what you just said merely have the class give you those abilities, and have ti to where that player uses those abilties in different way to achieve what he can inside of his arsenal of skills.  plus i ahve a good feeling Specialization will have at least one move in them to make hem different than another just to seperate them even further or at least make it to where doing such attack/spell will do something slightly different if in one spec instead of another.

     

    Plus i never said to get rid of the dual spec i was merely just saying that if you could master both you would ruin the biggest part of the feeling i would get out being a certain spec, but if you are stuck being the spec you choose than you give it way more meaning in what you are doing.


    This post was edited by Cealtric at May 17, 2017 10:21 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    May 17, 2017 10:43 AM PDT

    Dullahan said:

    oneADseven said:

    The fact that our hotbars will be limited nullifies the remark of "every monk is the same if you allow them to learn both specs."  You could have 2 "Body" monks on the same raid who have entirely different kits.  At the end of the day, I will choose freedom and flexibility over handcuffing and restriction.  What you are asking for sounds like an artificial progression barrier for the sake of making characters different.  What I want is the ability for characters of any given class to differentiate themselves from their peers through progression.  Eventually, if everybody becomes a "master rogue" they would indeed have "access" to the same kits.  But that will never mean that all master rogues are the same.  It means the exact opposite.  It provides a much bigger range of potential builds that can be utilized.  Again ... all of this is based on the idea of us having very limited hotbars.  Situational gear, situational hotbars.  That's the vision that has been portrayed to me.

    By your logic, we should also be able to mix classes or at least change our class at will.

    I'm not against having the ability to change your specialization, but the argument that we are somehow "handcuffed" because we have to make a choice where we specialize just doesn't hold water.

    No.  I never said anything about mixing classes or changing classes at will.  This entire discussion is based on unlocking multiple specializations through progression.  It has nothing to do with crossing classes or switching classes and that point has been illustrated very clearly.  You can say it doesen't hold water all you want but I have played plenty of games that used this handcuff tactic and it absolutely sucked.  Both EQ2 and WoW did it.  They had multiple specializations in both games, and they even allowed you to change them.  But it could only be done in town, at a class trainer, and for a scaling fee.  I remember in EQ2 where there was a whopping 4-5 fights in an entire expansion where the AoE spec was great.  Unfortunately, the encounters were few and far between and it made zero sense for anybody to spec down that tree.  It was essentially invalidated at it's inception.  It made more sense in WoW because their specializations actually crossed archetype barriers.  Druids could tank, heal, or DPS.  In that example it made sense.  No character should be able to fill every role so something like this shouldn't be possible.  The imposed limitations in that game were appropriate.

    But in EQ2?  Not at all.  Guardians were tanks, period.  There was no cross classing or dipping into other archetypes.  In any event, they allowed us to switch our specs while we were in town.  That was a decent compromise because at the very least, we could switch between a solo oriented spec, group oriented spec, or raid oriented spec as needed.  What sucked, though, was never being able to use 2 of the 5 specs.  They had decent abilities, but the benefits of those specs were extremely inconsistent.  It was impossible to justify using them.  For a fight here and there?  Sure, that would have been great.  But for an entire dungeon?  Never.  Thus, they were invalidated.  It would have been much cooler if we were able to learn all of the specs and then rotate them while out of combat rather than only being able to do it at the city.  Rather than having to pay a fee to "forget" one tree and "master" another, allow us to learn all of them individually and then rotate them at our leisure.  If each spec has a very powerful ability, you can put them on a shared timer to prevent OPness.  It's the fun flavorful stuff that I want to be able to use on a consistent, situational basis.

    Since you are questioning my logic, I'll clarify again, and we'll use the rogue example once more.  Let's assume there are 2 specs.  One offers superior DPS while the other offers debuffing and utility.  By my logic, I feel that it would be appropriate for a player to be able to learn both specializations over time, through progression.  I used progeny as an example.  I wouldn't want it to be easy.  It should be very time consuming.  "Mastering" a specialization should be just as epic as an epic weapon quest.  Over time, though, the players that go out of their way to truly master the craft of being a rogue will be able to broaden their toolkit.  It wouldn't be a matter of "Once you leave town, you're either X or Y spec."  --  but rather "You have mastered both the DPS & Utility specs and can now switch between them while out of combat."  A rogue would be able to use their group stealth ability at the cave entrance (utility tree) to bypass 2 guards.  They then pick a chamber lock (utility spec) around the corner, granting their group access to a catacomb.  Knowing what lies ahead, the rogue switches to his DPS spec.  The group is then swarmed by scarabs and locusts and the rogue is able to efficiently burn them down (DPS spec).  Further inside, the rogues group sees a terrifying abomination creature with 4 arms that appears to be very powerful.  Deciding to play it safe, the rogue laces his daggers with a crippling poison (utility spec) to lower the mobs attack speed (it has 4 arms / 4 weapons)  --  after defeating the beast, the rogue picks the lock from the chest (utility spec) and obtains a new dagger.  He equips the dagger and decides he wants to test it out (switches back to DPS spec) ... so they continue through the catacomb, vanquishing foes left and right with this new handy dagger.

    That's the kind of gameplay I want to see.  We already know that we'll be swapping our bars and gear around situationally to prepare for the next battle.  Why couldn't specialization be another layer on top of that?  Unlocking it through progression is just icing on the cake for me.  It should be a long, trying process but being able to swap back and forth between DPS/Utility while on the move would be very valuable and very enjoyable.  Restricting this action to NPC trainers in town makes no sense.  Not only is it an artificial handcuff, but it's super lame.  The idea of forgetting a "specialization' one second, and then mastering another one the next ... for a fee ... from some schmuck in town ... come on.  Liberate yourselves!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 17, 2017 11:14 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    May 17, 2017 11:05 AM PDT

    Yep, saw that when it was posted in the FAQ.  The problem with:

    " There will also be opportunities to focus each class on more specific and specialized roles, especially at higher levels. "

    Is that the wording is so vague, it could be stances or sub-classes.  Which one is extremely important, and that design decision has to have been made already, or all the content & balance work will need to be redone when the decision is finally made.  If 'focus each class' means stances? Great.  If 'focus each class' means sub-classes? Great.

    • 1778 posts
    May 17, 2017 12:10 PM PDT

    vjek said:

    Amsai said: Class paths or specs have been talked about by the devs. But basically its not been decided. And is probably something they will test in alpha/beta. Also what has been shown in the Monk reveal could change. This could just be the first step for testers to see if paths or specialization make it into the final product.

    Unless you have a cited source for that, Amsai, I would advise caution in stating such things as facts.  So, if you know that to be 100% for certain true, it would be great to hear where a Pantheon dev said that.

    Core design decisions like this aren't things you test in alpha or beta.  Sub-classes (which is what this COULD be) is a one-way decision.  One-time choices for specialization are sub-classes.
    You don't say "Hey, let's test sub-classes" you say "We are putting sub-classes in the game" and then much of  your content is designed around that.  EQ2 had subclasses.  It determined everything about character progression, and thus about combat balance and encounter balance.

    It's a huge deal, and will determine a large part of the overall direction of the game.  That the developers are not confirming/denying it is very worrisome, to me.  Either it means they have no plan, or they have the plan and simply aren't inclined to share it.  Both varying shades of "bad".

     

    Basically, what Raidan said. I didnt mean to sound as if I speak with some authority on the topic. If thats the way it came out, then let me clarify. I AM NOT A DEV!

    That being said, I have folllowed this project closely from the get go. Do you remember the original information about the 2 class specializations for each class they talked about? Well I immediately noticed the lack of such a distinction when the new Cleric reveal came out in a Newsletter (i think), I had asked about why the Clerics didnt have the 2 specs listed. I was basically told that while that wasnt off the table they were still trying to decide.

    Also there was a big thread over on MMORPG.com quite a while back where several people (including myself) were asking about some topics that VR seemed to veer away from or that there was an absence of information on. Mine for instance was if the Class Trials/Rights of Passage was still a thing. Brad actually responded and much of his lengthy reply was turned into a Blog posted on this website. I can find the link or someone else can. But basically its as Raidan said. There are some things that they arent talking about but havent forgotten and will be tested. There are also some things that they have talked about but will still need testing. And VR has said a few times that if something doesnt jive with the tenets or its just not working out in testing or if there is enough of an outcry, then they will scrap it! So yes from this response from the devs, even if its a big or involved system, it could be scrapped. 

    So while I am not speaking with any authority, I am using information that has previously been given (in some instances several times) and making an estimated guess. Much of the time I am on Androd and not able to link, but dont believe me, read it for yourself. And if nothing else, once I saw the Monk reveal I knew a couple of threads like this would pop up. And they have! And in my opinion have jumped to conclusions based on limited information. As you yourself have pointed out.

     

    the wording is so vague, it could be stances or sub-classes. 

    • 3237 posts
    May 19, 2017 8:03 AM PDT

    Updated, added Direlords.

     

    I am still hoping to see class mastery be a form of progression.  If rerolling through progeny allowed you to learn a second specialization, would you do it?  Of course you would!  Many would argue that this would feel "forced" ... well, news for you ... Subclasses were "forced" in FFXI and were the primary reason that all level ranges were populated with veteran players.  It wasn't feasible to be max-level without a sub-class.  If you wanted to fully progress your character, you had no choice but to go back and re-level.  It was one of the best features in that game and blew the replay value of the game through the roof.  I know that isn't the current plan for Progeny but this is something I would absolutely love to see!  If I had my way, each class would have 5 specializations and mastering each one would require a new generation of progeny on the same class.  Rites of Passage would be a unique quest line for each class and be another sense of non-linear progression.  I would like to see progression be something that I can work on for years, and to be so much more than just upgrading gear.  Pretty hardcore stuff.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 19, 2017 8:39 AM PDT
    • 1714 posts
    May 19, 2017 8:42 AM PDT

    IMO skill trees and the like have no place in a game like this. It creates an absolute balance nightmare and forces min maxing. It creates a "meta". It will lead directly to crap like "looking for fire mage". A "single best path" will emerge for multiple classes, at which point anyone who isn't on that build will be screwed. Oh, you're a stun paladin instead of a group heal paladin? Sorry, we don't have room for you. Let PLAYERS be the difference in how good one cleric is vs another, not which branch of the tree they each went down. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at May 19, 2017 8:47 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    May 19, 2017 8:42 AM PDT

    I like the Bloodletter idea.

    Sounds less one dimensional then SK types usually are. I've found that class type super boring stylistically, like the just alittle too evil villains in movies/ggames/books.

     

    • 3237 posts
    May 19, 2017 8:50 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    IMO skill trees and the like have no place in a game like this. It creates an absolute balance nightmare and forces min maxing. It creates a "meta". It will lead directly to crap like "looking for fire mage". A "single best path" will emerge for multiple classes, at which point anyone who isn't on that build will be screwed. Oh, you're a stun paladin instead of a group heal paladin? Sorry, we don't have room for you. Let PLAYERS be the difference in how good one cleric is vs another, not which branch of the tree they each went down. 

    That's exactly what could be done by allowing the PLAYER to learn all specializations through progression.  There could be situations where a single spec is ideal over another spec, and it's on the PLAYER to have mastered it.  Progression is a good thing.

    • 1714 posts
    May 19, 2017 8:57 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Krixus said:

    IMO skill trees and the like have no place in a game like this. It creates an absolute balance nightmare and forces min maxing. It creates a "meta". It will lead directly to crap like "looking for fire mage". A "single best path" will emerge for multiple classes, at which point anyone who isn't on that build will be screwed. Oh, you're a stun paladin instead of a group heal paladin? Sorry, we don't have room for you. Let PLAYERS be the difference in how good one cleric is vs another, not which branch of the tree they each went down. 

    That's exactly what could be done by allowing the PLAYER to learn all specializations through progression.  There could be situations where a single spec is ideal over another spec, and it's on the PLAYER to have mastered it.  Progression is a good thing.

    I think making certain spells/abilties drop or quest only can be part of the solution. Progression is good, but if the game has a slow enough pace, we don't need tons of differnet paths. 

    • 3237 posts
    May 19, 2017 10:15 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    oneADseven said:

    Krixus said:

    IMO skill trees and the like have no place in a game like this. It creates an absolute balance nightmare and forces min maxing. It creates a "meta". It will lead directly to crap like "looking for fire mage". A "single best path" will emerge for multiple classes, at which point anyone who isn't on that build will be screwed. Oh, you're a stun paladin instead of a group heal paladin? Sorry, we don't have room for you. Let PLAYERS be the difference in how good one cleric is vs another, not which branch of the tree they each went down. 

    That's exactly what could be done by allowing the PLAYER to learn all specializations through progression.  There could be situations where a single spec is ideal over another spec, and it's on the PLAYER to have mastered it.  Progression is a good thing.

    I think making certain spells/abilties drop or quest only can be part of the solution. Progression is good, but if the game has a slow enough pace, we don't need tons of differnet paths. 

    It's not a matter of "needing" something.  One could argue that we don't "need" plenty of the systems or mechanics that add fun and flavor to the game.  Personally, I find it very annoying when every max level "end-game" character is nearly identical.  In most games, the most you can do to differentiate yourself from your peers is earn different gear, and even that becomes watered down over time.  The more ways we mix it up, the better.  I want a "unique" character.  Offering multiple specializations certainly won't solve that problem by itself, but it would definitely add another layer of "situational progression" similar to gear and acclimation.  You made the same argument against acclimation ... why do we "need" acclimation?  It's an additional layer of progression man.  Some of us enjoy deep systems/mechanics that can't be mastered over-night.  I understand some people prefer a minimalist approach with things but in an MMO ... really?  Give me options ... give me flavor ... all day everyday, twice on Sunday.  With your logic, what's the point in having multiple classes for each archetype?  We can prevent groups from "needing a warrior" or "needing a paladin" if we just remove all tank classes and instead use a single "tank archetype" right?


    This post was edited by oneADseven at May 19, 2017 10:21 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    May 19, 2017 10:27 AM PDT

    Sunmistress said:

    I like the Bloodletter idea.

    Sounds less one dimensional then SK types usually are. I've found that class type super boring stylistically, like the just alittle too evil villains in movies/ggames/books.

     

    Thank you!  My bro will be playing a Direlord and mentioned he would love a spec similar to Bloodletter.