Forums » The Monk

Feign Death

    • 372 posts
    June 6, 2018 9:23 PM PDT

    disposalist said: "it's councelled to /quit the game while FD to wipe the list" lol how ridiculous is that? I hope it is different in Pantheon.

    I think he's trolling you...

    The change they made did make things a little more difficult, but only until you learned how to use the new way to your advantage. For those who don't understand the change: Origionally when you Feign Death, you were removed from the mobs 'aggro table' (ie List of players it will attack in order based on threat level). Thus when you stand back up, no mob is agro on you and only 'proximity' re-agro would make them turn back on you. So if you waited long enough for them to walk far enough away, then you could stand up without risk. When it changed, this full agro whipe didn't occur and you would stay on a monsters 'aggro table', but as long as you stayed FD they wouldn't come after you, yet when you stood up any and all monsters with you on their 'aggro table' would come running to get you no matter how far away they got. Once a monster reached it's initial spawn point, it would clear it's 'aggro table'. So only if you stayed FD until the mob returned to it's spawn point were you safe from it returning to get you. The exception was that there was a small chance (maybe 5%) that a mob would clear you off it's 'aggro table' immediately when you FD just like in the origional days.

    The way to use this to your advantage was simply to take advantage of mobs pathing to split them up by ping pong FD'ing. Monsters would always move to specific pathways when returning to spawn so as to avoid getting caught on the environment. In dungeons for example they would walk to the center of the hallway before turning to walk down the hall. When they aggro on you, they would take the most direct path they could, sometimes though, they would get caught on an object which would slow them down as they tried to run through the object and would slide across it. You could thus stand up and re-position, causing the mobs to slightly adjust their run paths, bumping into things or making them stutter to the center of the hall to get around a corner, thus taking slightly longer than other mobs to get to you. Then when you FD they also take slightly different paths taking longer to get back to their spawn. As they became seperated you would eventually have them far enough apart to let one get back to his spawn and reset his 'aggro table' while the other is still not home yet. You then stand up and one single mob comes running without you needing to catch up to it and throw something. This meant you could often split mob camps without needing to constantly be throwing things to re-aggro. You simply do the FD dance of: FD, stand, FD, stand, FD, stand... take mob to group.

    One other element was if you got a mob perma-stuck on an object or wall. After running in place for 10 seconds without changing it's position the game would realize that the mob was stuck and it would simply warp to you. This could also be used to split mobs because you could time it so that as soon as the first mob 'warped' you FD before any others warped. Now one mob is on top of you and the others are still way back at the object or wall.

    One other advantage to this change was the fact that you could keep mobs in a general area around your group without ever returning to a far off spawn spot. You could round up a ton of monsters from far away from your groups camp spot and keep them busy with your FD dance, never letting them go back to spawn. Your tank could then pick off 1 at a time while you kept the rest busy wandering back and forth in the next hall from the camp. Thus you didn't need to run far away across the zone every time the group was ready for another mob.

    oneADseven said: I give up.  If monks feel/play like they did in EQ2, I will 100% be rolling one.  I'll leave it at that.

    I just wanted to respond to oneADseven since he's talked a lot about Monks in EQ2 and FD letting them bypass stuff to kill bosses and such. I do think that he is right that this issue did exist in EQ2 and it does create a problem. But I also see that the error others are trying to point out is the fact that he is blaming FD for this problem when it's the ability to solo content which is the defining issue. Since EQ2 allowed classes to be strong enough to solo named bosses this meant that the FD ability allowed those with it to both get to those bosses and then kill them. So his statement saying that if monks play like they did in EQ2 then he will roll one... it's a valid point, since they could both solo bosses, and bypass content to get to those bosses quickly.

    With Pantheon VR has specifically pointed out that solo'ing will be mostly not available. They said that some classes might be able to solo in some situations, but that generally it will be next to impossible. I'm guessing that this will be limited to situations where a class can kite monsters in large areas with snares and movement speed buffs. This means that while a Monk may be able to FD his way through the dungeon to the boss room without clearing anything, he will not ever be able to kill said boss on his own. I would even go so far as to suggest that even a full group of monks together probably couldn't handle fighting a boss without having some sort of healer along, unless they totally zerged it with multiple groups of monks. But then many of them are likely going to die in the process. So unless there is going to be a healer class with a Feign Death ability. I don't think any groups will be able to bypass content to get to bosses to kill them.

    oneADseven has also complained about Monks being used as scouts to see if bosses are spawned. This has always been the case in these games and even rogues or other invis classes were able to do this kind of thing. It's a standard practice in most MMOs to have scouting. I don't see this as something to 'Nerf FD' over.

    So, in answer to oneADseven... Without needing to nerf Feign Death at all, I can say with some confidence that Monks will NOT play like they did in EQ2.

    • 2038 posts
    June 7, 2018 11:32 AM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    disposalist said: "it's councelled to /quit the game while FD to wipe the list" lol how ridiculous is that? I hope it is different in Pantheon.

    The change they made did make things a little more difficult, but only until you learned how to use the new way to your advantage. For those who don't understand the change: Origionally when you Feign Death, you were removed from the mobs 'aggro table' (ie List of players it will attack in order based on threat level). Thus when you stand back up, no mob is agro on you and only 'proximity' re-agro would make them turn back on you. So if you waited long enough for them to walk far enough away, then you could stand up without risk. When it changed, this full agro whipe didn't occur and you would stay on a monsters 'aggro table', but as long as you stayed FD they wouldn't come after you, yet when you stood up any and all monsters with you on their 'aggro table' would come running to get you no matter how far away they got. Once a monster reached it's initial spawn point, it would clear it's 'aggro table'. So only if you stayed FD until the mob returned to it's spawn point were you safe from it returning to get you. The exception was that there was a small chance (maybe 5%) that a mob would clear you off it's 'aggro table' immediately when you FD just like in the origional days.

     

    With Pantheon VR has specifically pointed out that solo'ing will be mostly not available. They said that some classes might be able to solo in some situations, but that generally it will be next to impossible. 

    The /quit to wipe the list was very early EQ, /quit or zone. 

     

    That's actually not how FD worked unless you are talking later EQ maybe since I don't know much of how things went post-Luclin. In early EQ the change they made was the opposite of what you are suggesting. When the game released until a few months before Kunark the monk would stay on the mob aggro list forever unless they zoned (or relogged), it could be immediate or take minutes to hours for the mob to come back after the monk but they would. Then they changed it so mobs would completely wipe the monk from memory about 35% of the time upon successful feign AND they made it so any mob that made it back to where it was when it aggro'd would forget the monk regardless. So you would pull and if you got multiple mobs you would split them using that 35%, some mobs would wander back and forget while one or two might remember and come after the monk when they stood back up and so you would flop back to group until you had a single following (or if it's the last two mobs and they both forget - use a thrown weapon to tag one if out of social range of other mobs). 

     

    Soloing is not going to be next to impossible save for maybe high blues/equal/higher con mobs for most/all. Otherwise all classes will be able to solo low con mobs for xp, some better than others of course. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at June 7, 2018 11:33 AM PDT
    • 1163 posts
    June 7, 2018 3:34 PM PDT

    Not even trolling, that's how it works currently on P99. You can remain of the aggro list forever if you don't /quit, and if it's a roamer mob you gonna pull the whole zone a few seconds/minutes after standing up.

     

    That's bad mechanic, but I guess it's how it was before beeing recoded into something more controllable, like Iksar said, when I played monk (Pop era and later) you could drop all threat with ease, it was even a guarantee when the mob completely resetted to his spawn point (however, it might be the problem here with roamer mobs can't say for sure).

    If you check P99's wiki about monks and SK you will often see advices of /quitting to wipe your aggro, that's unfortunately true on that server but as I said, it's more or less of a broken mechanic more than a true concept or design.

    • 136 posts
    July 10, 2018 11:44 AM PDT

    Was thinking about FD and how it can be used to grief and think I might have a way to prevent it. 

    As it worked in EQ a monk could grab a train run into your group and FD leaving you to deal with the mass of mobs that now want to eat you. No one like to be on the reveiving end of that right? So how about we add something to the mix. First off the idea to have the mobs take a swipe or two at the FD monk lying on the ground is a good idea. I would also like to add that when you FD the mobs on you will not drop aggro and go for the closest player. Have them stand over you for a bit like they are inspecting you, looking for signs of life. Even if you drop right in the middle of a group they will still be checking you out for a little bit ignoring the other players.

    Have this last for little while, not forever long just a few seconds, say 15 seconds. This would give the group enough time to move out of the aggro radius. 

    If you want to add a little more flavor and risk vs reward to the monk make it so the amount of time the mobs stand over you is random within a range. Say 15 seconds to 30 seconds. Now make it so your FD only lasts for 25 seconds. It means that you are reasonably sure your FD will protect you from dying if the first couple hits the mob gives you when you first do it dont kill you, but there is a slight chance that when your 25 seconds are up one fo them will still be standing there ready to attack. That little rule would be a good way to limit using FD as a way to get to any part of a dungeon just by running and FDing all the way down. You can still do it but there is a bit more of a risk involved.

    • 121 posts
    July 10, 2018 7:43 PM PDT

    Sabot said:

    Was thinking about FD and how it can be used to grief and think I might have a way to prevent it. 

    As it worked in EQ a monk could grab a train run into your group and FD leaving you to deal with the mass of mobs that now want to eat you. No one like to be on the reveiving end of that right? So how about we add something to the mix. First off the idea to have the mobs take a swipe or two at the FD monk lying on the ground is a good idea. I would also like to add that when you FD the mobs on you will not drop aggro and go for the closest player. Have them stand over you for a bit like they are inspecting you, looking for signs of life. Even if you drop right in the middle of a group they will still be checking you out for a little bit ignoring the other players.

    Have this last for little while, not forever long just a few seconds, say 15 seconds. This would give the group enough time to move out of the aggro radius. 

    If you want to add a little more flavor and risk vs reward to the monk make it so the amount of time the mobs stand over you is random within a range. Say 15 seconds to 30 seconds. Now make it so your FD only lasts for 25 seconds. It means that you are reasonably sure your FD will protect you from dying if the first couple hits the mob gives you when you first do it dont kill you, but there is a slight chance that when your 25 seconds are up one fo them will still be standing there ready to attack. That little rule would be a good way to limit using FD as a way to get to any part of a dungeon just by running and FDing all the way down. You can still do it but there is a bit more of a risk involved.

    I was thinking about something similar. A grace period where trained mobs don't immediately aggro to new groups they are pulled into so that way it can still be a pulling tool but not as easy of a griefing tool.

    Sabot, did you play monk of the same name on the Karana server by any chance?

    • 1163 posts
    July 10, 2018 11:43 PM PDT

    There's still the risk with a "grace period" that groups use it to skip content :

     

    Have your monk pull a corridor and follow him, then he FD at the end and you just pass till the next safe room, repeat&rinse. It's harder to skip content with an aggro mechanic that include every player going near the train, than making mobs ignore anything but the puller. It also take the risk of making split pulling every easier : Have a train running and just tag the mob you want in it, no social aggro, monk FD and the group only have to manage one mob.

     

    Of course skipping content will exist (straight runs to the next zone, invis runs, etc...) but isn't it a risk of making things worse and removing an entire panel of the game, to try to code an automatic mechanic avoiding "some" griefing (as other methods will surely be invented) instead of tagging FD trains as bad behavior and punish them ? No automated system can truly catch the mischievous and adaptative human behavior, I'm affraid it won't change a thing.

    • 136 posts
    July 11, 2018 6:34 AM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Sabot said:

    Was thinking about FD and how it can be used to grief and think I might have a way to prevent it. 

    As it worked in EQ a monk could grab a train run into your group and FD leaving you to deal with the mass of mobs that now want to eat you. No one like to be on the reveiving end of that right? So how about we add something to the mix. First off the idea to have the mobs take a swipe or two at the FD monk lying on the ground is a good idea. I would also like to add that when you FD the mobs on you will not drop aggro and go for the closest player. Have them stand over you for a bit like they are inspecting you, looking for signs of life. Even if you drop right in the middle of a group they will still be checking you out for a little bit ignoring the other players.

    Have this last for little while, not forever long just a few seconds, say 15 seconds. This would give the group enough time to move out of the aggro radius. 

    If you want to add a little more flavor and risk vs reward to the monk make it so the amount of time the mobs stand over you is random within a range. Say 15 seconds to 30 seconds. Now make it so your FD only lasts for 25 seconds. It means that you are reasonably sure your FD will protect you from dying if the first couple hits the mob gives you when you first do it dont kill you, but there is a slight chance that when your 25 seconds are up one fo them will still be standing there ready to attack. That little rule would be a good way to limit using FD as a way to get to any part of a dungeon just by running and FDing all the way down. You can still do it but there is a bit more of a risk involved.

    I was thinking about something similar. A grace period where trained mobs don't immediately aggro to new groups they are pulled into so that way it can still be a pulling tool but not as easy of a griefing tool.

    Sabot, did you play monk of the same name on the Karana server by any chance?

     

    No that wasn't me. I actually despise the Monk class due to the whole FD thing. I always hated how it worked and how easy it was to exploit the game with it. Wish there was some way to fix the issues with it.

    • 2575 posts
    July 15, 2018 7:17 AM PDT

    @goofywarriorguy

    The main issue with monks having been highly effective scouts in EQ2 was the fact that they were considered a "fighter" class.  There were 6 classes that filled the "scout" archetype ... dirge/troubador (bard), brigand/swashbuckler (rogue), and assassin/ranger (predator), and none of them were nearly as effective at "scouting" as the monk/bruiser.  There were plenty of mobs who could see through stealth/invis but there were zero natural counters to FD flopping.  The solo viability argument is most certainly valid but without TLC (Trivial Loot Code) I am quite confident that monks will be able to farm lower level zones more efficient than appropriate level groups.  The ability to solo content was never the issue.  Plenty of classes were able to solo content.  The real issue was, and always has been, EZ-Mode circumvention of content.  FD Flopping shouldn't grant exclusive access to deep dungeon navigation (while solo), especially in raid zones, and that's exactly what it did.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at July 15, 2018 2:54 PM PDT
    • 1280 posts
    July 15, 2018 8:43 PM PDT

    In EQ, invis was easily as bad as FD for content skipping, if not worse. You could invis most of the way down to Trak, for example. Or through Kael or or or or. And sure, that's not really a fair comparison, because if invis popped the class would die(unless they could FD, heh). But invis was still 100% a valid and common way to skip content. 

    I admit that monks could definitely solo lower level content, skipping much of it, but so could other classes, and monks did not have a spell interrupt, fear, mez, root, snare, tracking, run speed, teleportation, or any form of heal beyond mend and bind wound. And I get it, this isn't EQ, but go read the monk abilities that we know of so far. There's not exactly a lot of world manipulating abilities(fear, snare, mez etc) going on there.  There should be some perks to being a class that is heavily dependent on others, and has fewer tools in their toolkit than, so far, every single other class. How cheater is it that rangers can just pop into a zone and see almost every spawn and what location it's in? We can throw a stone at a mechanic or ability for pretty much every class. 

    Being able to bop around in a level 30 zone at level 50 was one of the perks of being a monk, a class that was otherwise absolutely helpless solo against a huge majority of the content. A level 34 necro could kill a sand giant, while level 50 monk needed dragon haste. But monks shouldn't be able to flop through a dungeon to camp an item that is useful to them? I'd argue that drawing a high level player back to a lower level zone is a positive thing if done right. Maybe the monk was there because all the casters were out kiting giants that dropped 20 plat a kill. 

    If somene is bogarting spawns for cash profit and being a jerk about it, I'd argue that's an issue with jerks, not monks. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at July 15, 2018 9:23 PM PDT