Forums » The Monk

Feign Death

    • 232 posts
    June 23, 2017 10:26 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I haven't even gotten to the raid zones yet.  Anyway, if you read my posts, you would see I was specifically referring to EQ2.  I played that game for many years and it was common knowledge that monks/bruisers could bypass content without ever being forced to fight or having a legitimate fear of death.  Unlike stealth or invis which had natural counters (some mobs could still detect through it, and once detected, you're forced to fight)  feign death allowed brawlers to literally run from the beginning of a RAID zone to the end SOLO.  They were the only class in the game that could do it.  As long as their ability with a 10 second cooldown and 99% success rate was up, they could bypass content at will.  We are clearly talking about two different games here ... so hold off on the "ignant hater crap" and consider the context before calling my opinion "jealous" or "skewed."

    SOW, fearing, stunning, dotting ... snaring?  What does this have to do with bypassing content?  That's just CC or movement speed.  None of it makes mobs suddenly stop caring about you on a whim.  You still have to kill encounters ... you still have to clear through trash ... you still have "risk" if something attacks you.  When charm breaks the mob actually turns on the caster to swat them down.  Enchanters were semi-effective at soloing but it was extremely dangerous.  Again, you still have to clear content to navigate through.  FD was a get out of jail free card with a 10 second delay, period, end of story dot dot dot.  Don't want to fight through 40 mobs between here and there?  Just sprint through and FD when needed ... stay down for 10 seconds, rinse and repeat.  Again ... this is all based on personal observation and experience.  I got tired of competing with solo monks/bruisers while trying to farm so I rolled one of my own.  I then proceeded to dominate the farming game with zero competition.  It was impossible for a group to compete ... while they are forced to clear trash, brawlers could just zip through and completely bypass content and go straight for bosses.

    I think you are a little over exhagerating the issue to be honest. I personally played EQ and not EQ 2 so I can't comment on the problems of EQ2 but I can say that in EQ that 3 classes had FD abilties and in addition the bard had Fade which allowed them to instantly wipe all their aggro and go invis. On top of that Rogues had shroud which worked in practically all areas and how much of EQ was mapped. All of these abilities could easily be used to bypass content as you say, however it was rarely done to much impact in the game because the places they could skip content and go directly to the boss and kill them was old content well below their level. If they attempted to skip content and run straight for a boss in an area designed for their level that dropped loot they wanted the boss would easily wipe the floor with them because they lacked a healer. Ultimately if they can solo a boss in a particular zone then they can probably kill the trash without having much trouble. 

    In all honesty the problem in your examples isn't so much that Monks could bypass the content, but rather that they were strong enough to solo the boss. If thats the case then I'd rather advocate rebalancing the monks capabilities around them not being able to solo bosses in their content level rather than nerf FD somehow. If they want to spend time in low level content farming bosses thats their choice but you'll have that no matter the class IMO because the trash at that point is just that easy trash. However make it so they can't kill bosses in their level teir, that way if they want to skip all the content in a dungeon, ok no problem.. but you'll be sitting at the boss without a group to help you unable to kill the boss because you have no heals. You seen how quickly Cohh was dropped in the live streams when a mob was on him without heals right? thats how the game should be. Its all a balancing act. FD is a powerful tool but it alone doesn't break the game, just like everything else.

    • 1845 posts
    June 23, 2017 11:47 AM PDT

    I give up.  If monks feel/play like they did in EQ2, I will 100% be rolling one.  I'll leave it at that.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 23, 2017 12:16 PM PDT
    • 270 posts
    June 30, 2017 8:20 AM PDT

    I was rewatching parts of the latest stream today, and for some reason the feign death ability just seemed so out of place while they were showcasing some of the AI that has been designed into the game.  Here is a mob that knows to run for help, but then is fooled when a PC falls down in front of them and plays dead.  I can see an animal behaving this way, but I think a being with any intelligence would, at the very least, smack the guy who just dropped dead in front of them.  Just to be sure.  

    I agree with what some here have said, I think there needs to be some sort of "consequence" to this ability when used against an intelligent mob.  Perhaps being hit over the head and stunned for a few seconds?  I don't hold any malice toward the Monk class, it just seems to me that feign death in particular, no matter what class might have some version of it, needs a bit of tweaking.

    • 296 posts
    July 19, 2017 3:30 PM PDT

    Gotta love Class Discussion Forums.  Every Class has, for some reason, those that hate that class or love a different class calling for nerfs on that class.  In this case, the game isn't even released and mechanics that have worked for over a decade must be nerfed because "it's OP".

    I can go through every single class in most classic games (before they nerfed all classes into being the same as all other classes in most games) and find Over Powered skills and some that someone will claim is unfair that this class has.  Paladins get lay on hands, it is a get out of jail free card, nerf, nerf, nerf.  Druids can port and exidus to zone, nerf, nerf, nerf.  Rangers die too easily, um ah, well, yeah but they also headshot, nerf, nerf, nerf.

    All these skills are counted with weaknesses and fit within a role.  Monks can't heal others in most games.  They at least originally had weight issues.  Limited choices as to weapons and no cc/group support functions.  They are far from the only class that gets a get out of jail free card (that never always worked, BTW.  And if you think so, you never played one.  Raise your hand if you died because a caster mob started casting before you FDed, even with AAs).

    The last time I was in the EQ forums over at SOE, there were 4-5 topics about how over-powered FD was.  Paladins has hate mail because there was an undead lull spell that they hadn't has since level 40 that they were going to get a fresh version of.  According to some, the world was going to end because Paladins were going to be able to pull when undead were involved.  Rangers were OP because of their solo ability with headshot.  Bards got a new Mez that lasted 4 seconds and this was to bring an end to enchanters.

    I'm sorry but people that primarily play Enchanters are not experts on Monks and Monks are not experts on Paladins, etc., etc.  And those that do this kind of playing have not played the class they are complaining about in any meaningful way because they would understand the trade offs if they had.

    I won't complain about your over-powered ability and demand nerfs if you don't complain about mine and demand nerfs.  Maybe, we just keep it like that this time and not let the nerd rage over other classes create another WOW clone this time.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at July 19, 2017 9:07 PM PDT
    • 1845 posts
    July 19, 2017 10:16 PM PDT

    FD was super over-powered in EQ2.  I played the game for many years and abused the mechanic to death.  It should have a counter just like everything else.  LoH might be a full heal but it definitely isn't a get out of jail free card.  Mobs don't just reset on a whim ... you still have to fight.  It has a long cooldown.  In EQ2, FD had a 99% success rate (when mastered) and a 10 second cooldown.  Single players could travel all the way through a raid zone that could otherwise detect any other class due to see-invis or see-stealth.  No "Group" could advance through that zone, but monks/bruisers could do it solo.  It was an absolute joke and unless someone played EQ2 I guess they can't relate to that experience.  I am not calling for FD to necessarily be nerfed but I am definitely sounding the alarm immediately that FD should not be as powerful a mechanic as it was in EQ2.  If it is, so be it.  I will roll a monk and enjoy the good life.

    • 296 posts
    July 19, 2017 11:07 PM PDT

    And Wizards can invis through areas and Rogues can superior invis and Rangers could run like hell and "cover tracks" and, and, and.  But there is always someone making out like only monks can do it.  And you point these facts out but it is "Well, that's different..."  But it isn't different --  not enough anyway, because they can "bypass" content too.  And there are trade off's.  I didn't play EQ2 for long, but I got to the end game.  I played a monk in EQ1 for 14 years.  That 1% was often at the worst time.  And I would often flop to some location only to find the rogue got there before me and I was much more likely to die on the way.  It was never this perfect content bypasser people make it out to be.  It was nice.  And I "flopped" around almost anywhere.  But I had an xp bill at the end of the day and I had to lie on the floor and wave at the other classes that could just walk with perma invis.  Of course, there were situations where I had it better than those guys with a see invis or undead around.  And don't even get me started on bards, running around at the speed of light while invis and mezzing anything that sees through it.  It took skill (at least before they added /twist or whatever the command was) but they couldn't really do much without a group, but they could get around and "bypass content" to their heart's content.

    And nearly every class had some area that they excelled in interms of content.  Rangers are still to this day the running joke that their feign death was better than a monks because it was a free trip to a bind point.  But with humaniod blue mobs and headshot, they could wipe out entire zones.  Pallidin's DPS was a regular joke and you'd often hear them whine about it, but give a pally a graveyard of undead...  Give a necro non-summoning named.  Give early bards a lot of running space and a ton of mobs and don't get in their way....  Most classes have some defining ability that is "OP" and once found gets "abused" to no end by those who play that class.  It is how it works.  But the grass is always greener...  I can go through even class in every game that I've ever played and frankly, you can too.  But it doesn't fight with the narative that some other class ability is Over-Powered, so we'll ignore those rather easy to observe facts.

    Bottomline is that it was never is not likely to be the big problem people make it out to be due some sort of penis envy they have for FD.  And it wasn't as over-powered as it is being made out to be.  In the end it for f VG to work out, but I grew tired of the class envy in forums probably about 10 years ago.  It started about 3 week into the beta of EQ from my memory and I'm sure earlier games had it.  90% of it is whining from other classes and has very little to do with actual balance.  The conversations go in circles because there is refusal to acknowledge any of the trade off's once someone has decided that something someone else can do is too powerful.

    • 1845 posts
    July 20, 2017 2:46 PM PDT
    Sorry but I am only talking about EQ2. It was stupid over powered in that game and that's the only game I have ever claimed it to be. Keep in mind that you also couldn't delevel in EQ2. No other class could navigate through various raid zones because all the mobs could see through invis or stealth. No class could bypass content like monks/bruisers, period. Not only that, but they were also amazing at soloing. It was easier and more efficient to farm as a solo monk that being in a group as one. That made it a flawed and anti social mechanic in my book and I saw it abused to the extreme. When I learned that it was an intended mechanic that wadnt going away, I rolled a bruiser and proceeded to solo farm rather than ever grouping on my other characters for farming purposes. It's a dangerous mechanic (for the game, not for the monk) if it works like it did in EQ2.
    • 296 posts
    July 20, 2017 7:48 PM PDT

    That wasn't the case in EQ1 as rogues had superior invis that only a few raid bosses could see through, bards and enchanters had their ways and ranger had their ways.  I didn't play EQ2 for very long but I didn't found FD time limited and annoying and you were still able to die.  I don't have any experience with the other classes but I find it hard to believe that only monks/bruisers could move around like that.  The likelihood is that other classes did have abilities that compared.  But I'd have to research that.  It WAS without a doubt the case in EQ1.  I can't believe wasn't the case in EQ2 and never addressed in all the years it has been out.

     

    Edit: Okay, a quick google found aseveral threads with people complaining about this.  Apparently, though, FD had a 10% chance of failing and once failed you had lowered avoidance.  So, if it failed, you had a high chance of dying.  Plenty of back and forth on that but long story short, even that game it wasn't the do what you want when you want ability and plenty of others explained how to do the same with other classes that has invis (basically, learn the see - invis and kill them when they can't be avoided).

    Nothing ever perfectly balanced in these games and the balancing act continues for the life time of the game, but I've never seen any of these "that ability is too over-powered and ruins the game" reactions to class abilities to be any where near as bad as the noisy one make it out to be.  And I know that to be the case with Feign Death.  Fortunately, devs are bring it to the game.  And I'm sure they've seen many the thousands of FD sucks threads that have occurred in the last 20 or so years and have some idea how they'll work with it.

    My 2 sents are that if it ain't broke, it ain't broke.


    This post was edited by DragonFist at July 20, 2017 8:09 PM PDT
    • 1845 posts
    July 21, 2017 8:41 AM PDT

    I never said anything about how it worked in EQ1 so none of that is really relevant to my point. And it definitely was not a 90% success rate. It was 96-97% (depending if you had expert or master) and sorry, but you are wrong if you think other classes could do what monks or bruisers could. I was specifically talking about raid zones. Several classes could invis or stealth through group content but only brawlers could travel from the beginning of a raid zone to the end. They could do it faster than a full raid team that was clearing the content! I just don't think it's fair that a single character could run through a raid zone to check on spawns whereas a single group with the best gear in the game couldn't even come close because of respawns and roamers. A monk could toss up Tsunami and literally run through 20 mobs without getting hit, FD, then get back up and fd every ten seconds to plop around the zone with almost no danger whatsoever. At the very least, the FD fail percentage should be adjusted to account for each mob rather than a chance to work overall against every mob following them.  Another idea is to make it so the reuse timer on the ability doesen't start until the monk gets back up.  That will prevent them from being able to continually skip through content with nothing more than a 10 second interval in between skip sessions.

    This is the ONLY ability I have a gripe about from that game and I played every single class. I understand that each class has their own strengths and weaknesses but NO single character should be able to bob and weave through a raid zone by themself, period. Rather than taking a full raid to check on spawns, which could take an hour, we would send our monk one way and the bruiser the other and know which spawns were up in the entire zone in 10 minutes. It absolutely gimped the content. Not only that, but their ability to outfarm full groups was just ridiculous. I dominated Karnors Castle and several other zones and boss rotations for a year plus on my bruiser. I am not saying this out of penis envy ... that is just an ignorant comment. If it is OP in Pantheon like EQ2 I Will just roll a monk and take advantage of it. But that's not healthy for the game. Again, all of my comments are talking about eq2 exclusively. I will test this mechanic and provide as much feedback as possible. Trust me ... if it can be abused I will have plenty examples of such that will be documented for the dev team to observe and decide how to respond.

     

    Please see this link:

    http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Feign_Death_V

    The expert version was easily crafted so virtually all monks had it.  The master version was just as common as any other master so most monks had it.  So that's basically 96% chance for anybody with 30g, and 97% for those who had the master version, which believe it or not was the majority.  Monks also had Tsunami which parried or riposted 100% of attacks for 15-20 seconds ... so if their ability ever did fail, they could just pop tsunami and still survive a train of mobs beating on them until FD came back up.  They also had heal, wards vs magical damage, they could cure themselves of any effect and use it while stunned/stifled, etc.  Any decent monk could train their way through ANY zone in the game without ever dying, even if their FD did fail.  It wasn't hard to do at all.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at July 21, 2017 9:05 AM PDT
    • 296 posts
    July 21, 2017 9:05 AM PDT

    I'm only going my limited experience in the game and what others in the game said:

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq2/index.php?threads/feign-death-as-super-invis.316612/page-5

    The game still exists and FD still exists and I haven't heard of it being heavily nerfed, so it couldn't have been that over powered.  Because the facts are that if it were as completely over-powered as you are making it out to be, it would have been nerfed.  SOE was never lacking in its use of the nerf bat.

    The bottom line is that is completely possible for a game to be balanced while having a fully functioning Feign Death in the game.  Just make sure other classes have abilities that balance it out.  But that being said, there will still be people, that no matter how much you point out those facts, will claim that the ability from another class is just TOO OP and must be nerfed or removed.  Frankly, I see that happening already and no one has even played their implementation.

    • 1845 posts
    July 21, 2017 9:51 AM PDT

    You should read that thread.  And this one:  http://archive.eq2wire.com/showthread.php?t=450440&page=2

    "Yes I know how to play a brawler. And yes FD can be used as a content bypasser.
    Explanations of brawlers using this mechanic to gank nameds repeatedly > quibbles about the RNG "

    "Being able to evac to a zone point was intended. Being able to bypass an entire zone's worth of content with little risk was not intended, as evidenced by the stealth/invis nerfs. FD seems to be that "1 in 10" method that got overlooked, hence the question."

    "Getting there by killing there would mean you are fighting your way THROUGH content as opposed to bypassing it.
    Everyone bypasses content in their own little ways all the time, but we are talking about a mechanic that allows brawlers to circumvent the time and risk of clearing the way to nameds, i.e. farming. SOE has made many changes to game mechanics that made for easy farming, but they seem to have "missed" FD."

    "Solo player ONLY going to a zone to farm keys for chests is the only person being affected by this change. If you believe flopping to chests is a playstyle, then you are sadly mistaken. In fact, FD should get a change that prevents those that use it from also gathering any sort of rewards by bypassing content intended for groups. Just like there are see invis mobs, there should be "unfooled" mobs that will wail on the FD person reguardless of how many times they FD."

    "And thats why they need to put the FD nerf back in.  I fully support this.

    For those that don't recall, it made FD a maintained effect that cancled when you stood up.  You refresh timer therefore didn't start until after you stood up and canceled the current FD.

    This placed a burdon on the FD player to actually survive in an area for x seconds before their ability refreshed.

    Of course, this was viewed completely unreasonable by the brawler community....  So we leave it as is and open up further abuse as with the case of these shards and the chests in MM."

    "Is it really SOE's intention that Feign Death allow characters to run through dungeons with See Invis/See Stealth mobs? Seems to give them a "super invis" skill which lets them go deep into the bowels solo farm nameds, etc. I have nothing against Feign Death, which is a very good skill, just that its re-use seems so low as to allow this behavior. Not only does this allow named farming such as in Sanctum, but I think it circumvents the see invis mobs the rest of us deal with. I'll be with a group in Sanctum working towards say the Oracle, and some monk/bruiser farmer will just run up right next to it, feign death all his adds, and then jump up and kill the named. Why make all the see invis changes to stop farming and allow this?"

    "I don't care one way or the other about FD, however you clearly didn't read the original post. The problem that the original poster stated is that FD based on it's current timers/sucess rate is that it allows people to circumvent see invis mobs which were put in specifically to stop people from being able to farm namers and avoid the need to kill other mobs along the way."

    "lol, its not a "player choice", its an exploit prevention measure. Your argument for it is like saying, cops shouldn't carry guns, cause its unfair to the thieves that don't carry them. This logic holds no water. An exploit prevention measure was put in game to bring an intended result: group reward for clearing appropriate content (not solo reward for use of an exploit)."

    "Using a ability thats been in the game since day one to an effect the Devs did not consider is not an exploit, it was just really bad game design. It's not the players fault the Devs were unable to figure this was going to happen, which is amazing since /feedback was sent about it in beta.  The fix to this is sloppy, and is just another example of how the Devs are never going to learn."

    "Care to explain how someone playing their class as designed is an exploit?  Karnor's Castle is designed for a group.  Players solo nameds in there all day, every day for masters and make hundreds of plat.  Crypt of Agony is designed for a group. Seballis is designed for a group.  Unrest is designed for a group.  Certain x2 epic mobs are designed for TWO groups and are solo'd.  PR and SoH is designed for FOUR groups yet is single and two grouped ..They are not exploits.  So a few players with brawlers are soloing key mobs.  And this presents a problem .... why?  Because they CHOOSE not to group?  What's that you said about logic again?"

    The above quote is an issue in and of itself, because of how the ability works, players chose never to group because it was easier to just solo farm.  That doesen't sound like a good mechanic for a group-centric game.  See how they mentioned Karnor's Castle at the beginning and how players solo names in there all day, making hundreds of plat?  Yep, I tried going there with a group few times and got fed up with having everything ganked by bruisers ... so then I did what was needed and rolled a bruiser and claimed the zone for myself.  I literally farmed that zone to death and no group would ever bother trying to compete because it was impossible.  I might see someone come in there for a quest mob now and then but they were in for a rude awakening if they thought they were going to kill one of MY fifteen bonus names that could be up.  What made them mine?  The ability to completely circumvent content and gank them from under the nose of other players, of course!  Was it right?  No ... but it was done to me, I complained, was told it was an intended mechanic, so I ended up safely farming tens of thousands of plat, at the expense of the zone being viable for anybody else.  So basically the different brawlers, rather than competing with eachother, would just pick their own zone to dominate.  It was insanity.

    It's the exact same stuff I have been saying and I haven't touched that game in probably 8 or 9 years.  Apparently there are tons of mobs in the game that can see through stealth or invis, but nothing that can "see through" FD.  So monks get to literally bypass an infinite amount of content and cherry pick names.  Like I said ... I don't care either way!  If they are the best farmers in the game that are designed in a way that screws other people over, people will play them that way.  I'm not calling for a nerf to FD in Pantheon because I haven't played it ... but I am definitely raising awareness on how the ability has been abused and exploited in the past, and am hoping that we can have an intelligent dialogue on how to address the issue before griefers start plaguing the community and screwing over full groups of players.  It was really bad in T8 as well where a brawler could take a full group to a zone, they would AFK at zone in, and the brawler could run around and loot chests and get everybody in the group their shards.  They ended up changing the zone as a whole, and tons of people complained ... here is a quote:  "So punish everyone because a few players might be able to FD their way to a free shard.  That's just [Removed for Content] stupid."  Yes, one ability from two classes caused expansion wide changes that affected everybody due to brawlers essentially using the ability in an exploitative way.

    I think the reuser timer shouldn't activate until the monk gets back up.  That allows them to use it as a pulling mechanic (which is what it was designed for, I thought) and not circumvent content.  Or, better yet, I think there should be a ratio of mobs that can detect FD.  I don't want to see the ability nerfed to oblivion ... it was a super fun spell and I enjoyed using it.  But the potential for people to play in ways that has masses of the community calling it an exploit ... we should consider why people are complaining so much and see what can be done to make it a fair ability.  I'm confident that VR will balance it in a way that prevents content circumvention.  I assure you that it will be thoroughly tested.  At the end of the day ... if it checks out as working as intended, and I feel it's powerful enough to safely circumvent content and cherry pick names ... I will roll one!  And when people complain, I'll defend it, accuse them of having penis envy, mention how all classes have an ability that is OP, etc, etc.  This isn't going to ruin my day or game either way, but I am going in with the mentality that I will be keeping an eye on this from the beginning.  If it's worthwhile, it will just be an additional tool in the toolbelt for me and anybody else who is mindful of how it works.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at July 21, 2017 10:21 AM PDT
    • 296 posts
    July 21, 2017 10:20 AM PDT

    Yeah, I did read it.  You are focuses on those that agree with you.  Skipping over the other relevant facts.  I wasn't trying to hide the fact that others have made the same, tired, arguments that you are making now.  It is pretty much my point that these accusations have been leveled against monks since the first day in EQ.  And yet the skill continued to be used with devs knowing what can be done with it in EQ2 and now in Pantheon.

    Like others before you, you fail to acknowledge that the use of it to move around might actually be something that devs are aware of and balance classes with.  The fact that other methods of achieving the same thing are less effective in some circumstances and FD is less effective in others does not seem to be an important point no matter how many times that it is pointed out.  It is mechanic.  It has existed since games have existed, frankly.  Some games make a game out of it (steath games).  I'm certain that Pantheon devs will put in means of challenge in regards to it.  Things like mobs that are less likely to fall for Feign Death.  Or mobs that can summon in choke points in dungeons that make so the flopper can't make progress when standing if they don't kill those mobs.  And so on and so on.  There is no valid reason to claim that the skill is over-powered.    Failure to keep it in mind during area design and failure to give similar means of movement to other classes (with their own trade offs) would be.

    But continuously brushing off the trade offs that DO exist in these games simply convinced anyone down the line in past games and doing so now isn't likely to result in the nerf either.

    I'm all for classes having proper balance and for intelligent area design that takes into account "flopping" and invis and superios invis and stealth and other agro dropping abilities being used to get past mobs.  Techniques already exist for it (Mobs with low timer, hard to resist summoning.  Mobs with See Invis,  Mobs that can recognize Life(spiritual energy) such as perhaps Gods and some forms of undead.)  But all these "fixes" such as "Every Mob on agro should get one free hit" or "FD should work if you weren't hit" or other changes to actual mechanic of the skill that make uselss for other, class defining purposes are not even negotiable in my book.  Might as well not even have the skill, which seems to be the likely reason to make such suggestions.  And as long as there are those that will get on those campaigns and willfully refuse to acknowledge the the existing tradeoffs, I'll keep pointing out he hypocracy of it.

    • 1845 posts
    July 21, 2017 10:26 AM PDT

    The quotes you mention as what people are calling for are not something I have ever said, personally.  Again, I am not trying to come off as someone who wants to just ruin the fun for monks.  I have monks in my guild that wouldn't be too happy about that!  I just want to see it balanced ... and it wasn't in EQ2.  So when testing opens up in Pantheon, I will attempt to recreate all of the crap I saw in EQ2 and then let the devs decide if it's okay.  I don't care what tradeoffs a class has ... no single character should be able to flop their way through an entire group zone, and especially not a RAID zone.  You have not responded to either of those points.  Should solo characters be able to out maneuver full groups and cherry pick names, at the expense of every group in the zone?  What about flop their way through a raid zone to check on names, faster than a full raid force could?  I don't think anybody in their right mind would call either of those things fair.

    What do you envision as the primary/secondary/tertiary purposes of FD?  If absolute content circumvention is one of them (meaning they can skip past mobs that see through stealth/invis), then I will argue for eternity that it should be nerfed.  As far as any other practical use of the ability ... I don't really care.  It reminds me of this one time when someone found a mob that does %HP damage.  They charmed it and ended up single grouping some of the hardest raid bosses in the game.  You don't fix the problem by removing charm ... you make it so that when you do charm something, it can't do %HP based damage to raid mobs.  That's all I'm asking for in regards to FD ... remove the "flopping" aspect from it and the rest is fine!  As far as me focusing on the comments that agree with me ... yeah, that was the point.  All of the non-brawler complaints don't just magically go away because brawlers insist that it's a critical aspect of their class.  It is what it is man, I'm pretty much done with this topic for now and I'll address it in testing.  There will be plenty of feedback on this mechanic from me, that much is a given.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at July 21, 2017 10:57 AM PDT
    • 1213 posts
    July 21, 2017 11:15 AM PDT

    Eh, it just wan't the problem it apparently was in EQ2 in EQ (at least through the first few expansions when I played). Yeah you could pretty much flop yourself wherever you wanted if you knew the zones but it didn't disrupt anything. Even at max level you couldn't just flop passed groups to make it to named mobs first  because the named mobs in 40+ areas almost always had a group and if it was open then no problem and they could try to farm...but they would often have a very rough time of it trying to solo even in a dungeon 10 levels below them and if they were up against a group they would not be able to out damage them. In a raid zone, what is one monk going to do by going off by himself? He can't claim a mob or solo a target so he could get to a spot and just lie there. They could camp mid levels dungeons and below, sure, but so could most classes. You can't just float between named mobs farming as you needed to keep a camp cleared since the named could spawn at any time, leaving the area opens the camp to a group to walk in (it wasn't uncommon for solo farmers to give up a camp to a group of level appropriate players anyhow). 

    • 296 posts
    July 21, 2017 12:12 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Eh, it just wan't the problem it apparently was in EQ2 in EQ (at least through the first few expansions when I played). Yeah you could pretty much flop yourself wherever you wanted if you knew the zones but it didn't disrupt anything. Even at max level you couldn't just flop passed groups to make it to named mobs first  because the named mobs in 40+ areas almost always had a group and if it was open then no problem and they could try to farm...but they would often have a very rough time of it trying to solo even in a dungeon 10 levels below them and if they were up against a group they would not be able to out damage them. In a raid zone, what is one monk going to do by going off by himself? He can't claim a mob or solo a target so he could get to a spot and just lie there. They could camp mid levels dungeons and below, sure, but so could most classes. You can't just float between named mobs farming as you needed to keep a camp cleared since the named could spawn at any time, leaving the area opens the camp to a group to walk in (it wasn't uncommon for solo farmers to give up a camp to a group of level appropriate players anyhow). 



    And, frankly, it wasn't in EQ2 either.  I played it for about a year and it wasn't the easy switch it is being made out to be there either.  I can't say, with the henchmen added to these games later, that Monks didn't become able to solo most stuff.  But Same could be said about any sort of tankish class.  Have a healer walking around healing you and you're golden.  But that shouldn't be an issue in Pantheon.  So, again, we come back to the trade-offs and there you go.  But it isn't just Feign Death.  Every class has a skill that gets huge amounts of hate on the forums of every class interdependent game I've ever played.  It is largely has lead to the heavy PvP centric games where nearly every class has self-heals, stuns, cc, dps and tanking skills that they can juggle as the case fits.  And the games are on-line single player games as a result.  But a game comes along and will have distict classes again.  I guarantee that they'll eventually be multiple threads like this one in every class' forum bemoaning the OP nature of said skill and how it needs nerfing.  If the devs listen to all that mess, we might as well buy matching tee-shirts now, cause we'll all be the same class with different looks in a few years.

    • 60 posts
    August 1, 2017 7:02 PM PDT

    I have read most of what people posted about FD, and the hate people seem to have for it.

    Please don't think FD should work like EQ2... EQ2 was an abomination to what EQ was.

    FD in EQ was a tool. It was not a get out of jail free card. It was a mob split, that sometimes required 3-4 monks timing everything right to get the mobs to split, and assuming it didn't fail the raid could kill it.

    Any spells cast at the monk before FD went off would ruin it and you would regain all hate everything had. In low lvl content yes I was simply an aggro reset, as it should be. But having played a Monk most of EQ. It was by no means a "haha you can't kill me" and I have spent countless hours laying there while my HP slowly regenerated.

    If they set up FD as it was in EQ it will be fair and balanced, and while the DPS on a monk was good the reason I, and many others, played the class was more for the challenge of pulling 1 mob from many, of breaking a camp and setting up a steady rotation of constant single pulls. And I hope that's what monks are in this game.

    And yes other classes could do that too, but that was the monk's bread and butter. Just like clerics should always have the biggest and most powerful heals. Monks should always be the best single pullers.

    Please don't hate on the FD. FD loves you.

    • 296 posts
    August 7, 2017 6:07 PM PDT

    Precisely, Nymphey!