Forums » The Monk

Feign Death

    • 7 posts
    May 10, 2017 11:54 PM PDT

    As i was watching the latest stream, it occured to me that someone who feigns his own death without taking a hit is as unbelievable/unimmersive as a rat creature dropping a longsword. I do realize that my comment on this, after the reveal of the monk class, is as timely as a christmasgift in summer, but i still wanted to post my opinion.

    If a monk could only succesfully FD after taking a hit it would seem more realistic, the ability would certainly be more dangerous but since this game is all about risk versus reward it seems appropriate to have a larger risk for a very powerfull ability in a group oriented game. You could even have the succesrate of FD depend on the hits/remaining hps of the monk.

    Just sharing some thoughts that popped up while watching the stream. Feel free to disagree

    Kub

    • 77 posts
    May 11, 2017 3:20 AM PDT

    I agree that FD should be realistic. What about increasing the probability NPC's ignore it if they do not hit the player... 

    • 1611 posts
    May 11, 2017 5:21 AM PDT

    I also believe that it should not be a blanket pass or fail.  It should be a check against each creature that has agro on him.  Any creatures who believe act normally, while those that don't continue attacking him.  Of course if any of them hit him, any within agro range would like start attacking again, since his cover is blown.

    This would probably require a change to the chance of success.  A higher chance would need to be given in order to make it usable against more than a few mobs.

    Another alternative would be, the more mobs that are agro, the less likely the monk is to succeed.

    • 4292 posts
    May 11, 2017 5:44 AM PDT

    I agree. We discussed this at length here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2475/my-xmas-wish-for-feign-death/view/page/1


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at May 11, 2017 5:45 AM PDT
    • 1137 posts
    May 11, 2017 6:19 AM PDT

    From here:

    Pyratt said: ... An FD mechanic that requires you to be damanged first!  Seems much more reasonable and adds an even greater risk vs/reward level to the monk.

    Agreed.

    "
    Personally? I hope feign death means that each monster on the feign death aggro list runs to the "body" and hits it once to make sure it's "dead" and such hits cannot be blocked, parried, absorbed, mitigated or in any way avoided, always hit, and always crit.   That means if you want to FD, that's fine, but you will still run the risk of dying, even to grey mobs.  It's not a 100% get-out-of-death-free card, and is less likely to be used for malicious training (without eating a death as the Monk).

    Overall, I'm pretty disappointed that single pulls are going to be in Pantheon at all, but it's their game and their money. :)
    "

    The trivialization that FD brings to group content is pretty significant.  I hope they revisit this design decision, but I suspect that ship has sailed, given they're designing an entire class around the mechanic.

    • 2 posts
    May 11, 2017 11:43 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    From here:

    Pyratt said: ... An FD mechanic that requires you to be damanged first!  Seems much more reasonable and adds an even greater risk vs/reward level to the monk.

    Agreed.

    "
    Personally? I hope feign death means that each monster on the feign death aggro list runs to the "body" and hits it once to make sure it's "dead" and such hits cannot be blocked, parried, absorbed, mitigated or in any way avoided, always hit, and always crit.   That means if you want to FD, that's fine, but you will still run the risk of dying, even to grey mobs.  It's not a 100% get-out-of-death-free card, and is less likely to be used for malicious training (without eating a death as the Monk).

    Overall, I'm pretty disappointed that single pulls are going to be in Pantheon at all, but it's their game and their money. :)"

    The trivialization that FD brings to group content is pretty significant.  I hope they revisit this design decision, but I suspect that ship has sailed, given they're designing an entire class around the mechanic.

     

    Have any of even played EQ back before it was ruined with mercs? Do you realize how difficult even blue mobs are and how hard they hit? This is now WoW, if every mob in a pack ran up and hit a monk (who wears cloth or leather btw) he would die every pull. You have to have a couple classes able to split groups of mobs (monk/enchanter) in a game or its a wipe fest.

    • 1611 posts
    May 11, 2017 11:54 AM PDT

    Tayne said:

    vjek said:

    From here:

    Pyratt said: ... An FD mechanic that requires you to be damanged first!  Seems much more reasonable and adds an even greater risk vs/reward level to the monk.

    Agreed.

    "
    Personally? I hope feign death means that each monster on the feign death aggro list runs to the "body" and hits it once to make sure it's "dead" and such hits cannot be blocked, parried, absorbed, mitigated or in any way avoided, always hit, and always crit.   That means if you want to FD, that's fine, but you will still run the risk of dying, even to grey mobs.  It's not a 100% get-out-of-death-free card, and is less likely to be used for malicious training (without eating a death as the Monk).

    Overall, I'm pretty disappointed that single pulls are going to be in Pantheon at all, but it's their game and their money. :)"

    The trivialization that FD brings to group content is pretty significant.  I hope they revisit this design decision, but I suspect that ship has sailed, given they're designing an entire class around the mechanic.

     

    Have any of even played EQ back before it was ruined with mercs? Do you realize how difficult even blue mobs are and how hard they hit? This is now WoW, if every mob in a pack ran up and hit a monk (who wears cloth or leather btw) he would die every pull. You have to have a couple classes able to split groups of mobs (monk/enchanter) in a game or its a wipe fest.

    Yeah, I was trying to figure this one out.  It sounds cool from a realism perspective, but it pretty much would kill the monk on a very large number of pulls, thus making the ability near useless.  Not just useless when pulling, but useless for avoiding death during wipes, or when just trying to get away.  We would have to change the name to "Feign Life."

    • 7 posts
    May 11, 2017 11:57 AM PDT

    Yes I did play EQ and i quit long before mercs showed up. 

    The idea is not to deprive the monk of any abilities, just to make them more realistic. A Pantheon monk seems to have some sort of tank quality in one or two abilties that could protect him from the first blow(s). That way he could make his run without dying and be able to perform a realistic FD to split mobs. But I dont agree on the idea that a group wouldn't be able to function without a monk!

    • 12 posts
    May 11, 2017 12:11 PM PDT

    This is a high Fantasy game, not a model of real life events.  If you want to play something realistic then all you have to do is walk outside your door.

    Let yourself get immersed by the high fantasy this game will provide; knowing that magic, sword/board mechanics and techniques unknown are in play.  

    Monk's FD has been a staple in EQ and has been fine tuned already, don't try to fix something if it doesn't need it or you may break it. Just my 2 cents.

    • 7 posts
    May 11, 2017 12:30 PM PDT

    novellerfane said:

    This is a high Fantasy game, not a model of real life events.  If you want to play something realistic then all you have to do is walk outside your door.

    Let yourself get immersed by the high fantasy this game will provide; knowing that magic, sword/board mechanics and techniques unknown are in play.  

    You can have realism in a fantasy game.

    I like my druid using nature based magic to root a mob, but i prefer my ranger to shoot a weighted arrow to knock a mob temporarily unconscious and i prefer my wizard to freeze a mob into place. Crowd control in a Fantasy game can be realistic without losing the fantasy-aspect.

     

     

    • 2 posts
    May 11, 2017 12:50 PM PDT

    Krovikan said:

    Yes I did play EQ and i quit long before mercs showed up. 

    The idea is not to deprive the monk of any abilities, just to make them more realistic. A Pantheon monk seems to have some sort of tank quality in one or two abilties that could protect him from the first blow(s). That way he could make his run without dying and be able to perform a realistic FD to split mobs. But I dont agree on the idea that a group wouldn't be able to function without a monk!

    Who said a group could not function without a monk? I hope you were not reffering to me as that is not what I said at all. I said a game needs a couple classes such as monk/enchanter for crowd control or its a wipe fest.

    • 76 posts
    May 12, 2017 4:36 AM PDT

    vjek said:

     

    Overall, I'm pretty disappointed that single pulls are going to be in Pantheon at all, but it's their game and their money. :)
    "

    The trivialization that FD brings to group content is pretty significant.  I hope they revisit this design decision, but I suspect that ship has sailed, given they're designing an entire class around the mechanic.

     

    How is single pulling different than Crowd control pulling in regards to group content's significane? One CC's before the pull and one does after. Either way, you are trying your best to focus your attention on one enemy. In a balanced system their should be pro's and con's to each style of group play. I play a puller in EQ, so to me there is more time and skill to pull 1 mob as there is to throw a rock at a pack and mez them. (i speak with my tongue firmly against my cheek)

    The balancing factor to an attempt at single pulling: you can fail, now you have a problem at the camp. We saw this in the video. Sometimes, he didnt split the camp, or he didnt get FD off in time/it failed. The group had to quickly adampt. Exactly what I hoped for, VR! 

    Let me say it this way: Good games present resistance and problem the player(s) must face. If there's only one way to tackle it, it doesnt become exciting. When you present many paths that approach problems differently you have a dynamic game that people will enjoy. This is why we have more than a warrior to tank or cleric to heal or wizard to cast spells. 


    This post was edited by Niloiv at May 12, 2017 4:37 AM PDT
    • 353 posts
    May 20, 2017 6:08 AM PDT

    More CC and less single pulls makes for a more entertaining game.

    If the best way to play is to safely pull 1 mob at a time that would get boring real quick.

    Get rid of FD pulling and add something better...

     

    Like a rogue that can toss a pebble to distract guards away.

     

    Monks that can nerve strike one mob and knock them out on pull.

     

    Pacify is totally fine and I'd like to see Chanters get this for humanoids and Druids get it for animals.

     

    Rangers could set a trap that snares and roots mobs as they come in.

     

    Turn pulling into a team effort instead of just having a pulling class... This also frees up Monks to fill a more interesting role.

     

     

    Thanks for reading,

    Kiz~

     

     

     

    • 31 posts
    May 25, 2017 3:11 AM PDT

    Angrykiz said:

    Turn pulling into a team effort instead of just having a pulling class... This also frees up Monks to fill a more interesting role.

    As a long time Monk-fan I tell you, that pulling is the interesting part playing a monk. 

    If I want to do DPS I will play a rogue or a ranger, if I want to tank I will play a warrior. But I want to be the puller, that's why I plan on playing a monk.

     I am not asking to make the monk the only viable option as a puller in the game but the changes some people here are asking for could make the monk as a puller obsolete.

    Getting hit just once before being able to FD could mean certain death at least at raids. Splitting mobs is hard and fun. Timing FD to get hit once so it does not automatically fail is not... at least not for me. But if this change will be implemented I vote for the mob instantly checking for groupmembers in the vicinity. Because, why shouldn't it?

    • 1455 posts
    May 25, 2017 1:29 PM PDT

    I'm for additional variables being added to feign death. It's more than just a realism or immersion issue. As is, it's a missed opportunity for gameplay, and almost infantile mechanically.

    I would recommend player health and timing after taking damage both be utilized to increase chance of successfully feigning. For each second that passes after being hit, the less bonus to feign success. Lower your health, greater bonus to success.

    Just activating the ability alone should often fail to convince an enemy, at or around your level, that you've actually died.

    This would make it considerably harder when dealing with big pulls with powerful mobs. That will mean more skill will need to be demonstrated, or perhaps more pullers will be necessary. There should be occasions where a single player with feign death alone is not enough to pull. An mmo isn't a one man show, and cooperative pulling, especialy on a raid, doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.


    This post was edited by Dullahan at May 25, 2017 1:36 PM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8551 posts
    June 2, 2017 6:52 PM PDT

    Folks, I have removed several posts as personal attacks will not be tolerated, neither will insults, there are much better ways to communicate than to do either of these things, continuing to insult or attack will result in further action, so please keep that in mind next time and take a breath before replying to someone over something you feel strongly about.

    • 7 posts
    June 5, 2017 3:04 PM PDT

    HaskarMadnome said:

    Angrykiz said:

    Turn pulling into a team effort instead of just having a pulling class... This also frees up Monks to fill a more interesting role.

    As a long time Monk-fan I tell you, that pulling is the interesting part playing a monk. 

    If I want to do DPS I will play a rogue or a ranger, if I want to tank I will play a warrior. But I want to be the puller, that's why I plan on playing a monk.

     I am not asking to make the monk the only viable option as a puller in the game but the changes some people here are asking for could make the monk as a puller obsolete.

    Getting hit just once before being able to FD could mean certain death at least at raids. Splitting mobs is hard and fun. Timing FD to get hit once so it does not automatically fail is not... at least not for me. But if this change will be implemented I vote for the mob instantly checking for groupmembers in the vicinity. Because, why shouldn't it?

     

    I totally agree with this. Pacification (the spell, not to be confused with mezzing) was not reliable and you really didnt know if it worked or not until you actually pulled a mob from the cluster.  If rangers trap was more effective and longer lasting, a pull method involving this could have been more viable.  I recall an old ranger discussion saying it would be game breaking, that was before HeadShot (I think that was the name.) AA in a later expansion. 

    The skill based FD had the same chance the spell based FD had to fail. FD was never 100% success.

    • 29 posts
    June 8, 2017 10:40 AM PDT

    Pulling is always a team effort, monk runs around trying to pull single, not always successful or trying to split a group, not always successful. Brings mobs to the group, tank, off tank, and crowd control has to do their job in that event. Mez, slow, weaken, etc etc.. It why I loved EQ PVE was hard and took skill.  Wow PVE is a joke compared to EQ.  I ran a heroic dungeon and had to change spec to heal.  The tank took off and walked through all the trash and was fighting the first boss with no heals.  A tank would not survive same level trash in EQ without some heals, slow, buffs.  Pre Mercs.  Most solo classes in EQ did so by kiting, druids, necro, bards,   You needed a snare, or slow and dots or aoe likely both because trash mobs could actually kill you if they were able to kit you.  Those damn cougars in East Commons would run up on you swipe, swipe, swipe dead.  Just surviving going from point A to point B was always a risk and you actually lost EXP when you died.  Dying Sucked!!  Just retrieving your corpse could cause you to die a few times and lose days worth of EXP.

    For those of you who never played earlier EQ you're in for a rude awakening, you will not be gathering a group of same level mobs and think you're going to kill them off and survive.  Not saying this is the new EQ although us old timers are hoping for that if the trash mobs hit like they did in EQ and you play like you do WoW, you're going to be dying a lot.  Good times.


    This post was edited by Albe at June 8, 2017 11:12 AM PDT
    • 1637 posts
    June 12, 2017 9:37 AM PDT

    Man, people hate FD. 

     

    Be careful what you wish for. 

    • 3106 posts
    June 13, 2017 4:56 PM PDT

    I don't mind Feign Death being used for pulling.  What annoys me is monks using it to completely bypass content and effectively be the best solo farmers in the game, and not because of their ability to solo, but their ability to trivialize content by resetting anything that chases them at will.  I've seen monks train to the end of raid zones by just spamming FD every time it comes up and resetting everything.  I never played EQ so can't really speak on how it worked in that game but it was super over-powered in EQ2.  At the same time, I don't necessarily mind monks being the best solo farmers in the game ... but also best pullers?  Also fill in as suitable DPS and off-tank?  If monks can just FD their way through a zone then I will 100% be rolling one to farm because they have always been the most efficient farmers in any game I have played.  I remember being in groups and losing to solo monks while competing for content.  While we are stuck clearing through everything they just run around completely worry-free and cherry pick the bosses.

    FD was not used as a pulling mechanic (except rarely) in EQ2.  It was used as a get out of jail free card (I think master quality was either 99 or 100% success rate, and cooldown was so low even if it failed you could just use it again in 8 seconds or whatever) when the raid was wiping or to run through group-oriented zones solo, and immune to peril.  It was specifically used to avoid trash and kill names.  If that's the plan for monks, it is what it is.  I'll roll one as an alt and enjoy the good life.  I did it as a bruiser in EQ2 because I got tired of competing with them.  I remember having a rotation down for Karnors Castle and being able to solo every single name in the entire zone with minimal competition.  People would try, get frustrated, and leave.  Been on both sides of the fence.  Annoying as hell having to compete with them, fun as hell playing as one and raking in the farm.  I think it would be fair that each mob chasing the monk has it's own chance to "resist" the FD.  So if you have a 90% success rate and 10 mobs are chasing you, odds are, 1 is going to continue beating on you.  I don't want to see it nerfed to oblivion but no solo player should be able to out-maneuver full groups in group-focused zones.  There should be random natural counters to it in the world and the cooldown should be tweaked.

    I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... I think these are some of the things that are important for the monk class.  Being able to navigate through zones and solo bosses was an awesome perk.  I just want there to be SOME danger involved.  There has to be a monkey wrench here or there that forces them to fight trash, or potentially bar them from advancing.  It worked on anything/everything in EQ2 including raid bosses.  As long as the risk vs reward is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with monks being able to roll through zones and cherry pick bosses.  I have done it myself and it was enjoyable.  It wasn't nearly as fun as having to solo as a paladin/ninja in FFXI though.  I had to load up on invis pots, deoderant, and sneak pots (depending on mobs detection method, sight/sound/smell) and had to cycle through all 3 of them in a zone.  If I fought something, I had to use everything in my kit to muster enough damage, avoidance, and healing to fight and kill stuff solo.  It felt like a really awesome balance and each fight was truly difficult.  If you messed up, it was over.  Those were good times.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 13, 2017 5:16 PM PDT
    • 1637 posts
    June 14, 2017 7:53 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I don't mind Feign Death being used for pulling.  What annoys me is monks using it to completely bypass content and effectively be the best solo farmers in the game, and not because of their ability to solo, but their ability to trivialize content by resetting anything that chases them at will.  I've seen monks train to the end of raid zones by just spamming FD every time it comes up and resetting everything.  I never played EQ so can't really speak on how it worked in that game but it was super over-powered in EQ2.  At the same time, I don't necessarily mind monks being the best solo farmers in the game ... but also best pullers?  Also fill in as suitable DPS and off-tank?  If monks can just FD their way through a zone then I will 100% be rolling one to farm because they have always been the most efficient farmers in any game I have played.  I remember being in groups and losing to solo monks while competing for content.  While we are stuck clearing through everything they just run around completely worry-free and cherry pick the bosses.

    FD was not used as a pulling mechanic (except rarely) in EQ2.  It was used as a get out of jail free card (I think master quality was either 99 or 100% success rate, and cooldown was so low even if it failed you could just use it again in 8 seconds or whatever) when the raid was wiping or to run through group-oriented zones solo, and immune to peril.  It was specifically used to avoid trash and kill names.  If that's the plan for monks, it is what it is.  I'll roll one as an alt and enjoy the good life.  I did it as a bruiser in EQ2 because I got tired of competing with them.  I remember having a rotation down for Karnors Castle and being able to solo every single name in the entire zone with minimal competition.  People would try, get frustrated, and leave.  Been on both sides of the fence.  Annoying as hell having to compete with them, fun as hell playing as one and raking in the farm.  I think it would be fair that each mob chasing the monk has it's own chance to "resist" the FD.  So if you have a 90% success rate and 10 mobs are chasing you, odds are, 1 is going to continue beating on you.  I don't want to see it nerfed to oblivion but no solo player should be able to out-maneuver full groups in group-focused zones.  There should be random natural counters to it in the world and the cooldown should be tweaked.

    I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... I think these are some of the things that are important for the monk class.  Being able to navigate through zones and solo bosses was an awesome perk.  I just want there to be SOME danger involved.  There has to be a monkey wrench here or there that forces them to fight trash, or potentially bar them from advancing.  It worked on anything/everything in EQ2 including raid bosses.  As long as the risk vs reward is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with monks being able to roll through zones and cherry pick bosses.  I have done it myself and it was enjoyable.  It wasn't nearly as fun as having to solo as a paladin/ninja in FFXI though.  I had to load up on invis pots, deoderant, and sneak pots (depending on mobs detection method, sight/sound/smell) and had to cycle through all 3 of them in a zone.  If I fought something, I had to use everything in my kit to muster enough damage, avoidance, and healing to fight and kill stuff solo.  It felt like a really awesome balance and each fight was truly difficult.  If you messed up, it was over.  Those were good times.

    I think you are crazy off base and making gross exaggerrations. 

    • 2413 posts
    June 14, 2017 9:30 AM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I don't mind Feign Death being used for pulling.  What annoys me is monks using it to completely bypass content and effectively be the best solo farmers in the game, and not because of their ability to solo, but their ability to trivialize content by resetting anything that chases them at will.  I've seen monks train to the end of raid zones by just spamming FD every time it comes up and resetting everything.  I never played EQ so can't really speak on how it worked in that game but it was super over-powered in EQ2.  At the same time, I don't necessarily mind monks being the best solo farmers in the game ... but also best pullers?  Also fill in as suitable DPS and off-tank?  If monks can just FD their way through a zone then I will 100% be rolling one to farm because they have always been the most efficient farmers in any game I have played.  I remember being in groups and losing to solo monks while competing for content.  While we are stuck clearing through everything they just run around completely worry-free and cherry pick the bosses.

     

    I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... I think these are some of the things that are important for the monk class.  Being able to navigate through zones and solo bosses was an awesome perk.  I just want there to be SOME danger involved.  There has to be a monkey wrench here or there that forces them to fight trash, or potentially bar them from advancing.  It worked on anything/everything in EQ2 including raid bosses.  As long as the risk vs reward is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with monks being able to roll through zones and cherry pick bosses.  I have done it myself and it was enjoyable.  It wasn't nearly as fun as having to solo as a paladin/ninja in FFXI though.  I had to load up on invis pots, deoderant, and sneak pots (depending on mobs detection method, sight/sound/smell) and had to cycle through all 3 of them in a zone.  If I fought something, I had to use everything in my kit to muster enough damage, avoidance, and healing to fight and kill stuff solo.  It felt like a really awesome balance and each fight was truly difficult.  If you messed up, it was over.  Those were good times.

     

    I think if it is done in the style of EQ then it should be fine. Yes it was mostly a "get out of jail (almost) free" card a lot of the time but it was more used for pulling and avoiding death. You could navigate dangerous zones with time and small handful of luck to be sure, but for the most part you couldn't do it nearly as well as any class with invisibility and some knowledge of the zone. Necromancers were the best soloers in EQ and also had feign death. I don't suspect monks will be the best solo in the game, but possibly the best of the melee classes except for maybe ranger kiting. At the higher/highest levels I don't imagine we will see anyone really able to solo much or run around dungeons to steal named mobs but it will likely happen in low-mid level areas from time to time and thats where server reputation hopefully comes in to stop people from trying to solo steal camps from lower level full groups. 

     

    Anyway, Feign Death was not fool proof and had two ways of failing. The most typical way is when you'd receive the message ' has fallen to the ground'. This signified that you had not feigned successfully, and the mob(s) treated you as a live enemy and carried on attacking. The other cause of feign death failing was originally thought of as a bug but turned out to be Verant's way of showing 'nothing is certain'. What happened is just before you'd go to feign death the mob launched an attack, whether through casting or melee, and as you feign the mob registered that you are dead, but it did not pull back on its swing or stop casting. The result of which is that it still hits you on the floor. Upon learning that even though are "dead" you do in fact take damage, they were smart enough to realize you are still alive and they would restart their attack. The only way around this is timing, you have to try time your feign just after the mobs finishes its attack. There is no you can skill raise which can affect this. So the more mobs you had training you the harder it was to feign successfully, and any caster mob could become a real terror. 

     

    There was also, in the case of Shadow Knights and Necromancers, the fact that they may not be able to cast the spell. This may be due to attacks interrupting your spell or through fizzling.

    • 3106 posts
    June 14, 2017 11:46 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    oneADseven said:

    I don't mind Feign Death being used for pulling.  What annoys me is monks using it to completely bypass content and effectively be the best solo farmers in the game, and not because of their ability to solo, but their ability to trivialize content by resetting anything that chases them at will.  I've seen monks train to the end of raid zones by just spamming FD every time it comes up and resetting everything.  I never played EQ so can't really speak on how it worked in that game but it was super over-powered in EQ2.  At the same time, I don't necessarily mind monks being the best solo farmers in the game ... but also best pullers?  Also fill in as suitable DPS and off-tank?  If monks can just FD their way through a zone then I will 100% be rolling one to farm because they have always been the most efficient farmers in any game I have played.  I remember being in groups and losing to solo monks while competing for content.  While we are stuck clearing through everything they just run around completely worry-free and cherry pick the bosses.

    FD was not used as a pulling mechanic (except rarely) in EQ2.  It was used as a get out of jail free card (I think master quality was either 99 or 100% success rate, and cooldown was so low even if it failed you could just use it again in 8 seconds or whatever) when the raid was wiping or to run through group-oriented zones solo, and immune to peril.  It was specifically used to avoid trash and kill names.  If that's the plan for monks, it is what it is.  I'll roll one as an alt and enjoy the good life.  I did it as a bruiser in EQ2 because I got tired of competing with them.  I remember having a rotation down for Karnors Castle and being able to solo every single name in the entire zone with minimal competition.  People would try, get frustrated, and leave.  Been on both sides of the fence.  Annoying as hell having to compete with them, fun as hell playing as one and raking in the farm.  I think it would be fair that each mob chasing the monk has it's own chance to "resist" the FD.  So if you have a 90% success rate and 10 mobs are chasing you, odds are, 1 is going to continue beating on you.  I don't want to see it nerfed to oblivion but no solo player should be able to out-maneuver full groups in group-focused zones.  There should be random natural counters to it in the world and the cooldown should be tweaked.

    I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... I think these are some of the things that are important for the monk class.  Being able to navigate through zones and solo bosses was an awesome perk.  I just want there to be SOME danger involved.  There has to be a monkey wrench here or there that forces them to fight trash, or potentially bar them from advancing.  It worked on anything/everything in EQ2 including raid bosses.  As long as the risk vs reward is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with monks being able to roll through zones and cherry pick bosses.  I have done it myself and it was enjoyable.  It wasn't nearly as fun as having to solo as a paladin/ninja in FFXI though.  I had to load up on invis pots, deoderant, and sneak pots (depending on mobs detection method, sight/sound/smell) and had to cycle through all 3 of them in a zone.  If I fought something, I had to use everything in my kit to muster enough damage, avoidance, and healing to fight and kill stuff solo.  It felt like a really awesome balance and each fight was truly difficult.  If you messed up, it was over.  Those were good times.

    I think you are crazy off base and making gross exaggerrations. 

    Could you elaborate on which part of what I said is crazy off-base or a gross exaggeration?  I only ask because the observation I shared was based entirely off of personal experience.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 14, 2017 3:52 PM PDT
    • 1637 posts
    June 20, 2017 8:38 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    Krixus said:

    oneADseven said:

    I don't mind Feign Death being used for pulling.  What annoys me is monks using it to completely bypass content and effectively be the best solo farmers in the game, and not because of their ability to solo, but their ability to trivialize content by resetting anything that chases them at will.  I've seen monks train to the end of raid zones by just spamming FD every time it comes up and resetting everything.  I never played EQ so can't really speak on how it worked in that game but it was super over-powered in EQ2.  At the same time, I don't necessarily mind monks being the best solo farmers in the game ... but also best pullers?  Also fill in as suitable DPS and off-tank?  If monks can just FD their way through a zone then I will 100% be rolling one to farm because they have always been the most efficient farmers in any game I have played.  I remember being in groups and losing to solo monks while competing for content.  While we are stuck clearing through everything they just run around completely worry-free and cherry pick the bosses.

    FD was not used as a pulling mechanic (except rarely) in EQ2.  It was used as a get out of jail free card (I think master quality was either 99 or 100% success rate, and cooldown was so low even if it failed you could just use it again in 8 seconds or whatever) when the raid was wiping or to run through group-oriented zones solo, and immune to peril.  It was specifically used to avoid trash and kill names.  If that's the plan for monks, it is what it is.  I'll roll one as an alt and enjoy the good life.  I did it as a bruiser in EQ2 because I got tired of competing with them.  I remember having a rotation down for Karnors Castle and being able to solo every single name in the entire zone with minimal competition.  People would try, get frustrated, and leave.  Been on both sides of the fence.  Annoying as hell having to compete with them, fun as hell playing as one and raking in the farm.  I think it would be fair that each mob chasing the monk has it's own chance to "resist" the FD.  So if you have a 90% success rate and 10 mobs are chasing you, odds are, 1 is going to continue beating on you.  I don't want to see it nerfed to oblivion but no solo player should be able to out-maneuver full groups in group-focused zones.  There should be random natural counters to it in the world and the cooldown should be tweaked.

    I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... I think these are some of the things that are important for the monk class.  Being able to navigate through zones and solo bosses was an awesome perk.  I just want there to be SOME danger involved.  There has to be a monkey wrench here or there that forces them to fight trash, or potentially bar them from advancing.  It worked on anything/everything in EQ2 including raid bosses.  As long as the risk vs reward is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with monks being able to roll through zones and cherry pick bosses.  I have done it myself and it was enjoyable.  It wasn't nearly as fun as having to solo as a paladin/ninja in FFXI though.  I had to load up on invis pots, deoderant, and sneak pots (depending on mobs detection method, sight/sound/smell) and had to cycle through all 3 of them in a zone.  If I fought something, I had to use everything in my kit to muster enough damage, avoidance, and healing to fight and kill stuff solo.  It felt like a really awesome balance and each fight was truly difficult.  If you messed up, it was over.  Those were good times.

    I think you are crazy off base and making gross exaggerrations. 

    Could you elaborate on which part of what I said is crazy off-base or a gross exaggeration?  I only ask because the observation I shared was based entirely off of personal experience.

     

    I already have, multiple times. You are making sweeping exaggerations. "completely bypass content". You mean like having SOW or INVIS or faction spells/songs and just running by mobs? Or like having ports that transfer toons across the world? Or by snaring something, or fearing it, or stunning it, or  dotting it or charming it? NONE of which a monk has the ability to do. You are picking and choosing without regard for the actual context and relational strength of other classes. Monks were among the very worst solo classes to level, they could not quest or gain level relevant loot on their own, but because you think they could farm better than other classes, which is straight up WRONG, you want FD nerfed? That's some ignant hater crap. Monks are among the very least "powerful" classes in the entire game, on their own. You have a very jealous and skewed opinion for some reason. I don't like it or think that it is reasonably based on fact. Monks were very good at killing LOW level content, relative to their level. But for getting rich or getting quality loot? That's abject nonsense. If you're picking a class for individual solo power, monk is no better than 2 other classes. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at June 20, 2017 10:19 PM PDT
    • 3106 posts
    June 22, 2017 7:04 AM PDT

    Krixus said:

    oneADseven said:

    Krixus said:

    oneADseven said:

    I don't mind Feign Death being used for pulling.  What annoys me is monks using it to completely bypass content and effectively be the best solo farmers in the game, and not because of their ability to solo, but their ability to trivialize content by resetting anything that chases them at will.  I've seen monks train to the end of raid zones by just spamming FD every time it comes up and resetting everything.  I never played EQ so can't really speak on how it worked in that game but it was super over-powered in EQ2.  At the same time, I don't necessarily mind monks being the best solo farmers in the game ... but also best pullers?  Also fill in as suitable DPS and off-tank?  If monks can just FD their way through a zone then I will 100% be rolling one to farm because they have always been the most efficient farmers in any game I have played.  I remember being in groups and losing to solo monks while competing for content.  While we are stuck clearing through everything they just run around completely worry-free and cherry pick the bosses.

    FD was not used as a pulling mechanic (except rarely) in EQ2.  It was used as a get out of jail free card (I think master quality was either 99 or 100% success rate, and cooldown was so low even if it failed you could just use it again in 8 seconds or whatever) when the raid was wiping or to run through group-oriented zones solo, and immune to peril.  It was specifically used to avoid trash and kill names.  If that's the plan for monks, it is what it is.  I'll roll one as an alt and enjoy the good life.  I did it as a bruiser in EQ2 because I got tired of competing with them.  I remember having a rotation down for Karnors Castle and being able to solo every single name in the entire zone with minimal competition.  People would try, get frustrated, and leave.  Been on both sides of the fence.  Annoying as hell having to compete with them, fun as hell playing as one and raking in the farm.  I think it would be fair that each mob chasing the monk has it's own chance to "resist" the FD.  So if you have a 90% success rate and 10 mobs are chasing you, odds are, 1 is going to continue beating on you.  I don't want to see it nerfed to oblivion but no solo player should be able to out-maneuver full groups in group-focused zones.  There should be random natural counters to it in the world and the cooldown should be tweaked.

    I don't want this to come off the wrong way ... I think these are some of the things that are important for the monk class.  Being able to navigate through zones and solo bosses was an awesome perk.  I just want there to be SOME danger involved.  There has to be a monkey wrench here or there that forces them to fight trash, or potentially bar them from advancing.  It worked on anything/everything in EQ2 including raid bosses.  As long as the risk vs reward is balanced, I'm perfectly fine with monks being able to roll through zones and cherry pick bosses.  I have done it myself and it was enjoyable.  It wasn't nearly as fun as having to solo as a paladin/ninja in FFXI though.  I had to load up on invis pots, deoderant, and sneak pots (depending on mobs detection method, sight/sound/smell) and had to cycle through all 3 of them in a zone.  If I fought something, I had to use everything in my kit to muster enough damage, avoidance, and healing to fight and kill stuff solo.  It felt like a really awesome balance and each fight was truly difficult.  If you messed up, it was over.  Those were good times.

    I think you are crazy off base and making gross exaggerrations. 

    Could you elaborate on which part of what I said is crazy off-base or a gross exaggeration?  I only ask because the observation I shared was based entirely off of personal experience.

     

    I already have, multiple times. You are making sweeping exaggerations. "completely bypass content". You mean like having SOW or INVIS or faction spells/songs and just running by mobs? Or like having ports that transfer toons across the world? Or by snaring something, or fearing it, or stunning it, or  dotting it or charming it? NONE of which a monk has the ability to do. You are picking and choosing without regard for the actual context and relational strength of other classes. Monks were among the very worst solo classes to level, they could not quest or gain level relevant loot on their own, but because you think they could farm better than other classes, which is straight up WRONG, you want FD nerfed? That's some ignant hater crap. Monks are among the very least "powerful" classes in the entire game, on their own. You have a very jealous and skewed opinion for some reason. I don't like it or think that it is reasonably based on fact. Monks were very good at killing LOW level content, relative to their level. But for getting rich or getting quality loot? That's abject nonsense. If you're picking a class for individual solo power, monk is no better than 2 other classes. 

    I'm not sure what game you are referencing ... but here:

     

    Bruiser farming Obelisk of Ahkzul (Dungeon with "Challenging" or higher con NPC's ... this is a group dungeon):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesMy9L9QSI

     

    Bruiser farming Cavern of the Afflicted (Another white-yellow con group dungeon getting annihilated by a solo bruiser):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7w-ymC_aPo

     

    Bruiser farming Crucible and Scion of Ice (More group dungeons getting swatted by a solo player)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7w-ymC_aPo

     

    I haven't even gotten to the raid zones yet.  Anyway, if you read my posts, you would see I was specifically referring to EQ2.  I played that game for many years and it was common knowledge that monks/bruisers could bypass content without ever being forced to fight or having a legitimate fear of death.  Unlike stealth or invis which had natural counters (some mobs could still detect through it, and once detected, you're forced to fight)  feign death allowed brawlers to literally run from the beginning of a RAID zone to the end SOLO.  They were the only class in the game that could do it.  As long as their ability with a 10 second cooldown and 99% success rate was up, they could bypass content at will.  We are clearly talking about two different games here ... so hold off on the "ignant hater crap" and consider the context before calling my opinion "jealous" or "skewed."

    SOW, fearing, stunning, dotting ... snaring?  What does this have to do with bypassing content?  That's just CC or movement speed.  None of it makes mobs suddenly stop caring about you on a whim.  You still have to kill encounters ... you still have to clear through trash ... you still have "risk" if something attacks you.  When charm breaks the mob actually turns on the caster to swat them down.  Enchanters were semi-effective at soloing but it was extremely dangerous.  Again, you still have to clear content to navigate through.  FD was a get out of jail free card with a 10 second delay, period, end of story dot dot dot.  Don't want to fight through 40 mobs between here and there?  Just sprint through and FD when needed ... stay down for 10 seconds, rinse and repeat.  Again ... this is all based on personal observation and experience.  I got tired of competing with solo monks/bruisers while trying to farm so I rolled one of my own.  I then proceeded to dominate the farming game with zero competition.  It was impossible for a group to compete ... while they are forced to clear trash, brawlers could just zip through and completely bypass content and go straight for bosses.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 22, 2017 8:53 AM PDT