I've come up with an example of something that we could see that I think could be cool/fun/dumb whatever lol.
Tuesday's 'raid night':
First phase: 4 groups have to collect zanzinite shards located in 2 different mountain regions. 2 groups head to each locale and farm the shards for an hour while fighting mobs.
2nd phase: Then the guild has to locate a key in an old castle ruins to enter the Warlords keep. All 4 groups come to the same zone and spread out in single groups clearing out mobs to reach nameds in search of the key. It can drop off any of 4 different moderately hard nameds and once looted it disappears after a single use.
3rd phase: The guild then uses the key to enter the keep and forms a raid to fight 4 raid bosses. Each boss holds materials for crafters to create armor pieces.
4th phase: The guild must clear out all 3 phases in a quick enough manner because the zanzinite shards will deteroriate if the guild takes too long. Once the guild defeats all 4 raid bosses and obtains the armor materials they then need to head to the keep's basement in order for the guild's crafters to use the Warlord's smithing set to create badass magical armor from the zanzinite shards and armor mats from the previous raid bosses. While crafting the rest of the guild has to keep the smithing area clear of mobs in order to not have any of the crafters disturbed during their process.
This is what I'm talking about when I say I'd like to see change in the raid scene. Whether this sounds dumb or stoopid is not the point, the point is that instead of a raid night consisting of just straight killing raid bosses why not change it up and require the night to consist of many different objectives. You still have fun, you still have LOTS of different things to do with LOTS of people, you still get to raid, you still get lots of badass loot not only from raid drops but from the moderate nameds as well as the crafted raid items. I don't want raiding to disappear, I want it to evolve.
Appreciate the follow up Noobie. At this point, I'm down for whatever. I agree with you that raiding can and should evolve in Pantheon. There are many mechanics from games of the past that can be vastly improved upon. Guilds shouldn't be able to blocks others from progression. If players participate in an "epic" adventure, it should feel epic in more ways than just loot. I would like to see major NPC storyline developments take place. Perhaps a king is killed, a village overrun, a forest burned down, a race vanquished (or perhaps turned into undead) ...
I would like to see some major dragon interaction, too. It was their world before ours ... I would like to see them coming out of their caves every now and then to wage war against all of the races that have been laying claim to their territory. I would like to see the dragons band together, at some point, after several of the lesser dragons are downed on a server.
I would like to see ongoing battles between different neutral factions where players have the option to choose which side they want to help. That decision could result in various quest lines opening up that are unique to that faction.
Would love to brainstorm some more but it's getting late for me and I have to cut this short. Thank you again for the follow up.
oneADseven said:If players participate in an "epic" adventure, it should feel epic in more ways than just loot. I would like to see major NPC storyline developments take place. Perhaps a king is killed, a village overrun, a forest burned down, a race vanquished (or perhaps turned into undead) ...
I would like to see some major dragon interaction, too. It was their world before ours ... I would like to see them coming out of their caves every now and then to wage war against all of the races that have been laying claim to their territory. I would like to see the dragons band together, at some point, after several of the lesser dragons are downed on a server.
I would like to see ongoing battles between different neutral factions where players have the option to choose which side they want to help. That decision could result in various quest lines opening up that are unique to that faction.
Would love to brainstorm some more but it's getting late for me and I have to cut this short. Thank you again for the follow up.
I would love to see guilds needing to work together/the server as a whole for epic quests/journeys. Something like needing many *different* guilds to work together toward unlocking/opening up more world or dungeons or story for everyone. Build community and teamwork server wide.
Talking about the endgame, my hopes are :
-Power of items/stats should not grow exponentially. No demigod who can solo old content while playing with one finger.
-Difficult pre-boss encounters ("trash" mobs), because you got to earn your way to the boss. Plane of Fear/Hate break-in and pulling were epic moments, more epic than the boss himself actually.
-Epic quests to be epic. No UI/hints/log, only research through the lore, months of player cooperation worldwide, sharing info (or not ! because competition or roleplay) like epics were in everquest.
-Lore. We need deep lore in endgame content. Lore is what makes a game interesting, and everlasting. It's not loots or gameplay, it's Lore !
i'd also like to see small item progression, especially with expansions. i think EQ had it right until pop - i do like alot that high end items were still good in the next expansion. beginning with pop it kinda got out of hand.
well i don't care about lore, i'm not going to read any of it.
lotro has achievements and titles. that's a reward that can be given for any content, including raids, that is motivating and does not result in any kind of real improvement.
oneADseven said: With Pantheon having such a heavy emphasis on group activity, has anybody considered the fact that having multiple groups work together is still consider grouping activity? It's a group of groups after all. If you don't enjoy that kind of gameplay, more power to you. Stick with single group endeavors. Why some folks have the desire to impose a buzz kill on other players that enjoy coordinating multiple groups of players working together is beyond me. If you read the major game tenets for Pantheon, there is a big emphasis on team work, sharing experiences with friends, and overcoming obstacles. It's been stated that the majority of the game will focus on grouping. Great! I consider raiding an additional layer of grouping because again, it's a group of groups. I think it would be cool if there was game play that encouraged mutiple groups to work together even if it isn't doesn't take place as a raid. Imagine a dungeon with 4 entrances that each require a single group to progress through in order to collect some sort of temporary key ... then they meet in the middle somewhere at which point they can form a raid and unlock something using all 4 keys together.
Look up the Titan raid in DDO. It required the raid to split up into 4 different groups and each groups proccess was blocked at times until another group cleared a certain area. Then all the groups arrived at the main area for the raid boss. It was a pretty involved raid zone, but one of the problems was many of the raid members would get bored having to wait until another group cleared their area to unlock forward progress for other groups.
Velrak said:oneADseven said: Snip
Look up the Titan raid in DDO. It required the raid to split up into 4 different groups and each groups proccess was blocked at times until another group cleared a certain area. Then all the groups arrived at the main area for the raid boss. It was a pretty involved raid zone, but one of the problems was many of the raid members would get bored having to wait until another group cleared their area to unlock forward progress for other groups.
I was thinking something more along the lines of each group being able to progress simultaneously with the goal of meeting up at a central location within the zone. If anybody has played FF3 on the SNES, the final mountain would be a good example of what I'm talking about. There were 3 separate groups who each had their own mini-boss to conquer before eventually meeting up to tag team the final boss. I would like to see "limited opportunities" as to where certain quest dialogues or access keys are only attainable under strict conditions that require multiple groups doing very specific tasks in different regions of the world or areas of a zone.
I would love to see a high difficulty raid zone that has 8-12 mini bosses that each drop their own key. After collecting each key, a raid would be able to force pop the main boss in that area. As far as the rest of the zone goes, I would like to see trash mobs that are very dangerous and have loads of HP. Getting two trash mobs at once could be a potential wipe unless the add was locked down by an off-tank pretty quickly. I would like to see a "raid zone loot table" where all mobs in the zone have a chance of dropping something from that table. For the 8-12 mini bosses, each mini-boss would have a corresponding trash mob. Every time a specific trash mob is killed, there would be a very small chance of spawning the mini boss version. Seeing as there are no instances, I would love to see a raid zone that a guild could spend an entire day or weekend farming. Rather than trying to camp a specific mob for hours on end, allow guilds to have an impact on spawning it.
On another note, I would like to double down on the fact that I truly want the end game to be as diverse as possible. I want raid progression to exist, but I don't want it to reign supreme as the ultimate sense of progression. To that end, I would suggest there being some sort of curse mechanic that is persistent in various raid zones. The effect could be mitigated by acquiring gear that has some sort of soul purifying essence attached to it. This would allow raiders to have a sense of progression that doesen't throw the rest of the game out of whack. I don't want to see single character demi-gods that can run around group dungeons by themselves and killing everything with ease. I would be fine with certain raid gear having effects that are only useful on raids or in limited areas. Bane enchantments are another way to accomplish that. Perhaps there is a high end raid zone with a ton of djinn/elemental mobs. Maybe a lot of the gear attainable from these zones can have offensive/defensive bonuses vs djinn/elemental mobs?
Angrykiz said:Raiding is what will get me to min max my character and pay for a sub long after I have hit max level.
If there's not enough of it to support a guild activity 2-3 nights a week I'll play to max level and then quit until more raids are made.
I can't see just playing group content for years on end.
True raid progression and extremely hard raid mobs that wipe out guilds are what I'm most interested in.
I think this is a niche that Pantheon should try to support although I feel like maybe I'm one of a dying breed of raiders.
Honestly Kilsin saying that they will raise the level cap as necessary is kind of a bummer to me as I would much rather see more horizontal progression versus just adding more levels.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
This.
I am very dismayed to see this 20-60-20. I think VR is making a huge mistake with this. Raiders play the most, pay the most and generally keep games alive.
Why are raids better than hard grouping content? Because your entire guild gets credit. Who cares if a single group in a guild can beat the hardest group content. What does that mean to the rest of the guild? I'm not saying there shouldnt be very hard group content but only 20% of the game dedicated to raiding is a huge fail. Getting 6 people to try a dungeon can be done 24/7 but finding 40 people to raid can only be done a few nights a week(in most guilds) making that final defeat of a raid boss that more enjoyable. Group content will be smashed in a matter of months simple from number of tries that can be done in a single week.
Im sure i'm wasting my time writing this as it looks like VR has already made their mind. I don't think im the only one who thinks like this though...
In fairness, even in the most raid centric games (WoW, FFXIV, etc.), raiding doesn't take up a significant portion of the game as a whole, quantitatively.
If 20% of the actual content of the entire game is raid content, that's actually a staggering amount of raid content. There are numerous ways to have solid non-raid progression as well. Examples would be LDoNs in EQ, or just the entirety of EQ's group content. Golden Efreeti Boots, zonewide drops in Sebilis, etc. are all groupable content that are best in slot for the era.
Our perspective of what non-raid content actually is has really skewed things. When you can solo 90% of the content it sounds super disappointing, but when you realize that interdependent (group, two group, etc.) content with meaningful progression will exist alongside raid content it kind of puts me at ease.
The worst thing for me in most games is okay, I'm raiding with the best guild on the server. What happens after we're done raiding? Everyone logs out until the next raid night. Super boring. I want to be able to do group content that actually matters, too.
Liav said:The worst thing for me in most games is okay, I'm raiding with the best guild on the server. What happens after we're done raiding? Everyone logs out until the next raid night. Super boring. I want to be able to do group content that actually matters, too.
This sums it up quite nicely.
Raid should never be the only factor of "endgame", and I do hope Pantheon will still have some horizontal progression when reaching the max level.
@Liav, I agree. You definitely need a lot of meaningful group content. And some raid content...
I think in part 2 of the live stream this week, they mentioned that stats have shown only 15% of players participate on raiding. So most of their resources will be spent on group content, and raid content isn't goint to be a priority (similar to solo content not being a priority). [This is my summarization. Sorry, if I'm miss-stating anything, as it has been a few days since I've watched the stream.]
Raiding, as something to look forward to, even if you never get to actually experience it, is still valuable. It gives meaning to trying to improve your character and do the harder group content, so that one day you'll have the stats to be able to raid -- if you want to. A lot of the things you get doing group content is used to help raiding.
I think it's important to realize that the raiding scene isn't a closed system. You can't just ignore them, and think that you'll only lose 10-15% of the population. Those 15% of players who raid, interact and bring a lot of value to the server as a whole. It's like the hardcore players saying, "we don't need casual players". That's not true either. You need everyone in the system for the gaming ecosystem to thrive!
Anyways, I know in the past the devs have emphasized how they will launch with raid content. And this blurb about raiding from the live stream probably isn't an accurate representation of their plans. But if I didn't already closely follow the development of the game, the statement would've given me pause.
>Those 15% of players who raid, interact and bring a lot of value to the server as a whole. It's like the hardcore players saying, "we don't need casual players". That's not true either. You need everyone in the system for the gaming ecosystem to thrive!<
Very much agreed - I am not a raider but not only do I think the game NEEDS the raiders knowing that raids are there if we want to do them encourages even the more casual player to care about gear a bit more. For example if I am in a guild with some people that raid I may not be on a raid team but I may want to be available if they can't get a full team one night and the call goes out for fill-ins.
Iksar said:I would love to see guilds needing to work together/the server as a whole for epic quests/journeys. Something like needing many *different* guilds to work together toward unlocking/opening up more world or dungeons or story for everyone. Build community and teamwork server wide.
... I like this.
Imagine if a new expansion was released, you buy it, but you can't actually get to until at least 3 guilds have to beat 3 raid encounters simultaneously to like, break a barrier or something, or whatever.
You can be assured that at least 3 guilds will be going nuts clawing at their screens trying to accomplish that.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if 3 guilds that might even be competitors, perhaps even outright hate one another, having to cooperate in unison, if even for a little bit?
And the memories. Nobody involved would ever forget it. Ever.
(you can also apply this sort of scenario across things less important, but important enough to do)
oneADseven said:Appreciate the follow up Noobie. At this point, I'm down for whatever. I agree with you that raiding can and should evolve in Pantheon. There are many mechanics from games of the past that can be vastly improved upon. Guilds shouldn't be able to blocks others from progression. If players participate in an "epic" adventure, it should feel epic in more ways than just loot. I would like to see major NPC storyline developments take place. Perhaps a king is killed, a village overrun, a forest burned down, a race vanquished (or perhaps turned into undead) ...
I appreciate it too Noobie,
Agree that raiding is something that needs to evolve in Pantheon,
Guilds shouldn't be able to block others from progression.
Everyone should be able to take the risks in order to get the rewards for the effort they put into it.
Actually believe the bigger group content is very important for how the community bonds and comes together in order to achieve a common,long-term,impactful goal
It could be so much more than endgame* if we'd stop looking at it that way.
Rather than a separate instanced playhouse*
Think about a turn of events in the developments taking place within each alignment with an amount of players of epic proportion being involved.
It would be about more than an epic encounter and fat loot at the end of an instance;it would be about a common destiny providing you with the right motives for what you do in any content: content becomes king.
So I'd agree with *I don't want raids to disappear,I want them to evolve*
They could be the driving engine for the community as a whole,to act for a common goal
And to find kindred soul
I'm not a person that cares about "end game" so long as there is plenty to keep me busy at game start..middle game and after I'll be playing. I can't sit still for the raiding game..don't have the patience or the need. :) That's not to say I haven't raided, I just hate the "template" of the week mindset, and the militaristic conformity it takes to raid. :P Also the quibbling over pixilated phat lewts. :P I just want to enjoy the world, explore, craft, and socialize :)
Vade said:Iksar said:I would love to see guilds needing to work together/the server as a whole for epic quests/journeys. Something like needing many *different* guilds to work together toward unlocking/opening up more world or dungeons or story for everyone. Build community and teamwork server wide.
... I like this.
Imagine if a new expansion was released, you buy it, but you can't actually get to until at least 3 guilds have to beat 3 raid encounters simultaneously to like, break a barrier or something, or whatever.
You can be assured that at least 3 guilds will be going nuts clawing at their screens trying to accomplish that.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if 3 guilds that might even be competitors, perhaps even outright hate one another, having to cooperate in unison, if even for a little bit?
And the memories. Nobody involved would ever forget it. Ever.
(you can also apply this sort of scenario across things less important, but important enough to do)
That's more or less what I was thinking.
Would be exciting if they had some massive raid requiring many guilds/players to work together, maybe an army attacks Thronefast. The individual player groups pick up the grunts and the guilds charge ahead and take the raid level leaders. If the server successfully takes them down within a certain amount of time the server gets access to "_" but if they fail then they have to rebuild parts of Thronefast by donating X of different crafting materials until they can unlock "_".
"Where were you stationed when the war came?"
CanadinaXegony said:I'm not a person that cares about "end game" so long as there is plenty to keep me busy at game start..middle game and after I'll be playing. I can't sit still for the raiding game..don't have the patience or the need. :) That's not to say I haven't raided, I just hate the "template" of the week mindset, and the militaristic conformity it takes to raid. :P Also the quibbling over pixilated phat lewts. :P I just want to enjoy the world, explore, craft, and socialize :)
A large Kingdom mission could have multiple ways to mobilize players during a month/week
Providing them with a choice for how they want to participate too
Take a kingdom mission where the player gets the chance to gain reputation with the alignment Elves belong to
By either helping to take care of an ancient magical tree
Or by defending it from attackers
Or cooking some power food for the warmounts of the alignment with the fruits of the tree (even crafters get to participate in the larger group content)
Iksar said:oneADseven said:If players participate in an "epic" adventure, it should feel epic in more ways than just loot. I would like to see major NPC storyline developments take place. Perhaps a king is killed, a village overrun, a forest burned down, a race vanquished (or perhaps turned into undead) ...
I would like to see some major dragon interaction, too. It was their world before ours ... I would like to see them coming out of their caves every now and then to wage war against all of the races that have been laying claim to their territory. I would like to see the dragons band together, at some point, after several of the lesser dragons are downed on a server.
I would like to see ongoing battles between different neutral factions where players have the option to choose which side they want to help. That decision could result in various quest lines opening up that are unique to that faction.
Would love to brainstorm some more but it's getting late for me and I have to cut this short. Thank you again for the follow up.
I would love to see guilds needing to work together/the server as a whole for epic quests/journeys. Something like needing many *different* guilds to work together toward unlocking/opening up more world or dungeons or story for everyone. Build community and teamwork server wide.
Reminds me of people on the server getting together to help rebuild the wizard spires in EQII or the Public quests that anyone could join in Warhammer. I'd be alright with that. I just am too much of a free spirit to knuckle down to regimented raiding sessions. Plus some of the attitudes encountered by certain raiders over the years, somehow elitism creeps in there, and if you don't march in lockstep, you are looked down upon. Thanks but no thanks, that's not what I pay for. :)
20%... that means if the game has 20 zones (excluding cities), 4 of them would be raid zones. that's actually alot. alot more than original EQ had. probably about the amount EQ had after introducing planes (hate/fear/sky). i assume they're not going to separate all zones like this into raid/non-raid, but if you want to imagine the amount of raid content that actually means, it's a good compare.
Assigning arbitrary percentages to things doesn't really matter, honestly.
Quality is better than quantity. If there's only one raid zone in the game but it has several encounters with progressive difficulty, that's probably less than 1% of the total content of the game and would still manage to be satisfying raid content on launch.
Having too much raid content just leads to oversaturation where a significant portion of it won't be bothered with because of loot table imbalance, etc. It's also pretty challenging to create the content in the first place, and I'd be afraid quality would suffer if there was too much.
If we can have an APW-like raid dungeon at launch, that'd be more than sufficient for several months of raiding (depending on difficulty), and that's discounting the time it takes to actually level to 50 to participate. Ideally there'd be a sprinkling of other raid bosses through the world as well, but I'm personally a fan of the progressive/winged dungeon style.
EQ launched with about 64 zones (probably 70+ if you count different city areas like freeport east/west/north etc) with only 2 raid zones and 3 straight raid bosses. Pretty much less than 5% of the content in the game, maybe even less than 1% all said and done if you include actual content in the rest of the world. I think if they hit even 10% for *launch* then they are in an amazing spot. I don't know where people got 20-60-20 since no one can find a source. But I think 80% group, 10% solo, 10% raid would be just fine.
Like all games, they can change focus due to popular demands, otherwise it goes a niche game with less then 1000 playing.
Grouping today, tomorrow grouping/raiding... Anyone can say its a grouping game for life, but things change as does the development teams.
Not sure the concerns here, things change all the time, you have to just be prepared for that change.
It is a wrong way of thinking x % content for crafters,x % for PVEers,x % for PVP,x % content for roleplayer,x % for groups,x % for raids/larger groups
The division into sharply contrasting groups is not a good thing for quality of the game.
This stereotypical thinking like catering 20-60-20 to player types does more harm than good.
Instead focus on quality while allowing everyone to find enjoyment in any of the content
We need interdependence between all types of players.
Like the example of crafters being able to contribute to kingdom mission as the example I mentioned before
I don't believe that we as customers should be prepared for change
If a customer comes to your restaurant because the dish is better as in some other restaurant,the same quality is expected on the second visit
The customer does not need to be prepared for change,if the restaurant stops delivering the delicious dish because they switched chefs
It is likely customers will leave.
That is the problem with focus due popular demands ;you please nobody in the end ,the game falls into obscurity.
It is ok for a game to be a nich game.I'm convinced they have to do things differently for lasting success
Going for popular demand is going for moderate quality that impresses nobody in the end
And that is how we've seen the MMO hopping phenomenon where few are able to settle with 1 game;they all are mediocre at best.
So lets drop the focus on loot tables,end the endgame raid mantra and go for quality content where interdependence is key