Archaen said:oneADseven said:... If you don't enjoy that kind of gameplay, more power to you. Stick with single group endeavors. Why some folks have the desire to impose a buzz kill on other players that enjoy coordinating multiple groups of players working together is beyond me. ...
... I think it would be cool if there was game play that encouraged mutiple groups to work together even if it isn't doesn't take place as a raid. Imagine a dungeon with 4 entrances that each require a single group to progress through in order to collect some sort of temporary key ... then they meet in the middle somewhere at which point they can form a raid and unlock something using all 4 keys together.
I think the concern with raiding is it typically becomes the focus of end-game. Not sure that anyone is calling for no raids. I certainly hope raiding is a signficant part of the game, but not to the detriment of smaller groups. From what Kilsin and the other devs have said, they're well aware of this concern and have plans to make it work.
As to your example, sounds cool, but it's essentially just a raid. Since raids aren't really for xp, 4 (hopefully more) individual groups having to work together is what a raid is all about. However, I do hope they add raids of this nature instead of the tank/spank/dodge stuff we so frequently see.
"I would really love to see raid bosses used sparingly in Pantheon."
"No big raid zone that houses 20 raid bosses like APW or like how WoW and Rift have a dozen zones filled with raid bosses."
I am sorry, but any suggestion to further limit what has already been classified as a limited element of gameplay in Pantheon isn't necessary, in my opinion. VR has already stated that raiding will only make up a small portion of their game. I will always promote the idea of there being as much raid content as possible as it appears that we already have an up-hill battle in that regard. APW was touted as one of the most successful raid zones of all time, in any game. I think it would be an absolute shame if a similar zone wasn't created for Pantheon. In fact, I would like to see multiple raiding zones similar to APW. Beyond that, I would also like to see a variety of over-world bosses that roam around in non-raid zones. I understand that raiders may only make up 10-20% of the total population but I think it's very important that there is enough content developed to keep that portion of the community satisfied.
One thing I do know is that Pantheon is in good hands. VR has an amazing team across the board and Joppa continues to impress in his creative role. I can only hope that VR is offering him non-stop overtime pay, and that he is in a position to take them up on it. We need every ounce of creative juice that he can muster. I love all of the new features that are being rolled out in Pantheon and sincerely hope that the raid scene is also considered as a factor in "The Pantheon Difference." We have nearly 20 years of experience to fall back on regarding what did or did not work when it comes to raiding in MMO's. I think Pantheon is in a wonderful position to capture the essence of raiding and evolve it into something great. There are so many negative pre-conceived notions that surround the raid scene due to bad mechanics from games of the past. Raiding needs an injection of lifeblood ... we should be excited about the potential of raiding, not concerned with it being an issue or problematic.
I think it would be in the best interest of our entire community if VR had a dedicated raid team. I understand that group content will make up the majority of the game, and that some folks may think that any/all raid content that is developed is taking away from that mentality. I do not share that sentiment at all. I would love to see an end-game comprised of many different avenues of gameplay, but raiding does indeed belong as one of them! The very thought of raiding not being seriously considered as a major element of overall gameplay in Pantheon makes me cringe. Again, I understand it's an up-hill battle in that regard. I understand that VR has stated, many times, that group content will be the primary focus. That's fine and dandy ... I will accept whatever percentage of raid content that I can get and really hope that I don't run out of stuff to do like I did with Vanguard.
If people want to raid, let them. Raiding does not interfere with others grouping. Keep in mind, raiders also group.
I am hopeful for a mix of gear options between raiding, crafting, questing and grouping. I plan to do all four.
Everyone has what they enjoy most. A solid game will give something for each type to do without harming the others.
Raiders and non-raiders can get along, team up, and do their own thing without harming each other.
Its about time we stop trying to break everyone up into dichotomies and just enjoy the game the way we like to, without wishing ill upon the opposite end of the spectrum. I hang out in many different chat channels. (Yeah, I am a no-life loser that spends all day chatting and reading about Pantheon. It's ok, my family and I are happy.) I see too much of the raiders hating on the casuals and the casuals hating on the raiders. There is no reason for it. We all can find our passion in Pantheon without taking away something from others. It's not a ZERO SUM game.
Beefcake said:I see too much of the raiders hating on the casuals and the casuals hating on the raiders. There is no reason for it. We all can find our passion in Pantheon without taking away something from others. It's not a ZERO SUM game.
I think this comes from the fact that (in general) raiders want all/most of the best loot to come from their preferred way of playing, often at the expense of others.
Traditionally, the best loot in the game has always come from raiding. There are some games that were able to balance it with group content better than others, particularly EQOA and FFXI. I would like to see the best loot come from a variety of gameplay styles, but raiding should definitely have it's place just as it always has. How do you interpret the following tenets?
An awareness that content is king.
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
Also, group content has almost always been a stepping stone to raiding when it comes to power progression. Unless someone is suggesting that raiding be a stepping stone to group content, I don't see a valid argument on why raid gear shouldn't be the best in the game. Progression is important, right? Is it possible to create a game where the end-game is truly considered both grouping and raiding? I think they can be blended, sure, but I see no possible way that the hardest content in the game will take the form of group content. In a world of risk vs reward, the more challenging something is, the better the reward should be. Is it possible for group content to be more challenging than raid content? I don't think so. I see zero chance of that happening as raiding offers a much broader range of challenges compared to grouping. There are more moving pieces/parts. There are more side objectives on any given fight, more things that can go wrong. It's more difficult to organize multiple groups than a single group.
This isn't to say that there can't be "some" group content that is more difficult than "some" raid content ... but if you are going to compare the absolute toughest of the tough, between groups and raids ... raiding endeavors trump grouping endeavors, period. If the risk vs reward in Pantheon is balanced in a way so that group content is truly more challenging than raid content, I would have zero issue with group content offering the best loot in the game. As long as risk vs reward is properly adhered to, everything should work itself out. Any attempt to circumvent this very important realization is watering down the inherent value of a true risk vs reward system. I can't wait to experience the most challenging group content in Pantheon. I am willing to bet, though, that all of the group content in the game will be cleared well in advance of all the raid content.
Again, though, I think it would be truly awesome if the end-game was comprised of many different aspects of gameplay. If someone wants to have as many situational BiS items as possible, it should require a blend of grouping, raiding, faction, crafting, questing, rites of passage, exploration, grinding, farming, purchasing, sharing, sacrificing, enchanting, progeny (master crafter stuff?), and luck. I don't think it should be possible for someone to have "the best gear in the game" exclusively from raiding. We should be prepared to travel far and wide, experiencing ALL of the end-game max level content that VR has cooked up for us. It just so happens that traditionally, raiding has been at the end of the spectrum. But that doesen't mean that someone shouldn't be able to get plenty of BiS stuff even if they never dabble with raiding. But if you want to have the best of the best, in every slot, then absolutely, yes, you should be required to raid. You can't complete a puzzle if you are missing any of the pieces ... raiding will always count as several pieces of the puzzle. Just how many pieces has yet to be determined and I look forward to seeing how it all balances out.
oneADseven said:Traditionally, the best loot in the game has always come from raiding. There are some games that were able to balance it with group content better than others, particularly EQOA and FFXI. I would like to see the best loot come from a variety of gameplay styles, but raiding should definitely have it's place just as it always has. How do you interpret the following tenets?
An awareness that content is king.
An understanding that a truly challenging game is truly rewarding.
An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward.
A sincere commitment to creating a world where a focus on cooperative play will attract those seeking a challenge.
An understanding that player involvement is required for progression. All actions (or lack thereof) should have consequences. Positive actions should be rewarded. Apathy or lack of action should not be rewarded with bonuses.
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige.
A belief that the greatest sense of accomplishment comes when it is shared - and earned.
Also, group content has almost always been a stepping stone to raiding when it comes to power progression. Unless someone is suggesting that raiding be a stepping stone to group content, I don't see a valid argument on why raid gear shouldn't be the best in the game. Progression is important, right? Is it possible to create a game where the end-game is truly considered both grouping and raiding? I think they can be blended, sure, but I see no possible way that the hardest content in the game will take the form of group content. In a world of risk vs reward, the more challenging something is, the better the reward should be. Is it possible for group content to be more challenging than raid content? I don't think so. I see zero chance of that happening as raiding offers a much broader range of challenges compared to grouping. There are more moving pieces/parts. There are more side objectives on any given fight, more things that can go wrong. It's more difficult to organize multiple groups than a single group.This isn't to say that there can't be "some" group content that is more difficult than "some" raid content ... but if you are going to compare the absolute toughest of the tough, between groups and raids ... raiding endeavors trump grouping endeavors, period. If the risk vs reward in Pantheon is balanced in a way so that group content is truly more challenging than raid content, I would have zero issue with group content offering the best loot in the game. As long as risk vs reward is properly adhered to, everything should work itself out. Any attempt to circumvent this very important realization is watering down the inherent value of a true risk vs reward system. I can't wait to experience the most challenging group content in Pantheon. I am willing to bet, though, that all of the group content in the game will be cleared well in advance of all the raid content being cleared.
Again, though, I think it would be truly awesome if the end-game was comprised of many different aspects of gameplay. If someone wants to have as many situational BiS items as possible, it should require a blend of grouping, raiding, faction, crafting, questing, rites of passage, exploration, grinding, farming, purchasing, sharing, sacrificing, enchanting, progeny (master crafter stuff?), and luck. I don't think it should be possible for someone to have "the best gear in the game" exclusively from raiding. We should be prepared to travel far and wide, experiencing ALL of the end-game max level content that VR has cooked up for us. It just so happens that traditionally, raiding has been at the end of the spectrum. But that doesen't mean that someone shouldn't be able to get plenty of BiS stuff even if they never dabble with raiding. But if you want to have the best of the best, in every slot, then absolutely, yes, you should be required to raid. You can't complete a puzzle if you are missing any of the pieces ... raiding will always count as several pieces of the puzzle. Just how many pieces has yet to be determined and I look forward to seeing how it all balances out.
Sadly, in many games, raiding is only more challenging due to the volume of people. In good games, there is group content that requires more strategy, timing, and solid movement than raids in most games. In some games, legendary group zones even require better gear than raiding.
It is DEFINITELY possible to make group content more challenging than raids.
Hopefully, VR will do that.
I enjoy raiding. Always have. There was a lot of times that raiding with a guild kept me playing Everquest. I would only log in to raid because I was already max level, plenty of AA's, and had to raid to get upgrades on gear. Sure I could roll an alt and start all over again, but it's nice being able to further your character more than what you can do with just a group of players.
I don't like 18-24 man raids. I think it's a waste. I like big raids. 90-100 people zerging Avatar of War, filling out 72 man raids consistently was hard. Getting them all on the same page was even harder. That was to me when EQ was at it's best and most memorable. There are a lot of people who eventually get tired of raiding and just want group content. There are people who never raid decide to try it and actually love it. I think the game is best served to offer multiple avenues. Like people mentioned above...why does it have to be either or? Just have both and those who want group only can group and those that want raid can still raid.
I think part of the problem with deciding this is people that only group see raid gear and think they need to have that raid gear too but just be able to obtain it by grouping. You can't have both. Raid gear should be the best gear available. Whether it needs to be intertwined with crafting or not is a different discussion entirely. But Vanguard's end game gearing was pretty neat, you raided to get access to the pantheon of the ancients then once you did you could do group trials for faction grinding and purchase the gear you needed. It also required crafting to make the items necessary to buy the gear. It used all facets beautifully I thought. And even the raids to get in there and advance dropped some really nice items that people could pick up along the way.
I know that without the end game raid scene a game will not make it. No matter how much they try and church up group content. There will always be that large vocal group that demands more content more mobs and you need subscriptions to make a game successful. Otherwise this game fizzles out and seizes to exist. As stated above raiding has become an intricate part of gaming. And now that it is I don't think a game can get away from it without going down in flames.
Beefcake said:oneADseven said:Snip
Sadly, in many games, raiding is only more challenging due to the volume of people. In good games, there is group content that requires more strategy, timing, and solid movement than raids in most games. In some games, legendary group zones even require better gear than raiding.
It is DEFINITELY possible to make group content more challenging than raids.
Hopefully, VR will do that.
If the development team wanted to purposely make group content harder than raid content, it is definitely possible. That said, wouldn't raiders have a natural advantage compared to non-raiders when it comes to completing this content? I would imagine the kind of gear that is acquired from raiding being very helpful in single group content, especially if it's truly the most difficult content in the game.
oneADseven said:-snip-
If the development team wanted to purposely make group content harder than raid content, it is definitely possible. That said, wouldn't raiders have a natural advantage compared to non-raiders when it comes to completing this content? I would imagine the kind of gear that is acquired from raiding being very helpful in single group content, especially if it's truly the most difficult content in the game.
That's assuming it's straight-up gear that determines how well you do the content. Based on what we've seen so far, this will not be the case.
Raids should not inherently be the most difficult content. They're difficult because of communication/group management and content. But smaller teams having to coordinate even better could easily be more difficult and more rewarding than raid content.
Honestly, it sounds like we're all asking for the same thing: Great raid content, great group content... let me decide where I want to spend my time.
Archaen said:oneADseven said:-snip-
If the development team wanted to purposely make group content harder than raid content, it is definitely possible. That said, wouldn't raiders have a natural advantage compared to non-raiders when it comes to completing this content? I would imagine the kind of gear that is acquired from raiding being very helpful in single group content, especially if it's truly the most difficult content in the game.
That's assuming it's straight-up gear that determines how well you do the content. Based on what we've seen so far, this will not be the case.
Based on what we've seen so far, I would argue heavily that better gear would make that level 30 dungeon much easier than it appeared to be on the stream. Gear will always play a factor in the ability to complete content.
I see a lot of wobble in your thoughts 187. You challenge the concept and logic that group content can be as rewarding/challenging/worthy of 'progression' simply because it has not been in many games (just about all) in the past. You want raid evolution, so isn't it evolution to make it part of the game, but not the terminal point of the game? If anything, that makes it more desirable becuase it's not forced on you for 99% of all the best gear to come from one simple equation: Bring more people, deal with organizing multi-group setups and schedules. That's the flavor of success. All else is a diversion while you wait for lockouts or respawns or whatever.
You also continually challenge the idea group content can't be more difficult than a raid on the whole. It doesn't have to be, it has to be as challenging for 6 people (assuming that's the end state of agroup) to perform a task for the same reward that 12, 24, 48, etc have to. If that means a fairly equal amount of danger, coordination, etc, then that has been met. There have been group dungeons that meet that design goal, and still you don't believe it can be done in a game touting group play as the social underpennings and focus of the game. Raid content, as I've asserted many times, doesn't have to be arbitrary. "Let's just put a few more raids in, there aren't enough... because raids." Personally, the hardest dungeons I've played and farmed were typically harder than the raids if only skill was taken into account. There was zero room for error with 5-6 people in a group. None. No slackers.
Then, to be magnanimous, you graciously accept that the developers may have the right of it and there should be many avenues to success and a more 'fluid' (my word) end game consisting of lots of activities focused around grouping and many other things. Which is it? Are you behind The Vision (tm) or do you just really want to eek out as much of a late/end game raid progression as you can because that's the play you like? I'm truly wondering. It's really binary. Either raiding is the end game, or it isn't. Either way raids will exist, but in one scenario, raiding is by default considered more rewarding because more people show up and group content is simply a warmup. In the other, you can respect group content as a worthy challenge and raiding as an occasional escalation of folks to add a more epic feel.
What if there was no loot in raiding zones - not even from bosses. Would people still raid?
If the answer to the question is that people would not raid, then I believe that the reasons some people raid is for the loot table - the carrot on the stick - the tangible item to behold.
However, if people would still do raiding content even if there wasn't loot then that strikes me as pure gold right there! The aspect of gameplay is what drives participation - loot is nice to have but not necessary in the grand scheme of playing.
I harken back to the old pen and paper days of D&D and then onto Wizardry. There was loot, sure, and it was always great to get something. But it never struck me as essential to playing. Playing a character, a class, coordinating for the encounter and succeeding was what made playing enjoyable.
It's most defnitely a mindset. Just wondering if that tangible item carrot-on-the-stick is the driving factor or not.
I certainly think it is. Because 99% of all classic MMOs had a reward structure based on raids alone, it's hard to imagine a game where raiding exists, but doesn't automatically mean a progression from grouping and superior use of your time. I think it's causing some serious mental anguish for those assuming old school means hardcore raiding.
I think we all sort of academically understand things are going to be different here, but until it's out and we sort of see it first hand, I think it's chafing people to think that "BiS" (something I hate even discussing, but it's the truth in the carrot as you stated) will not automatically be a raid item.
Also - I'm perfectly fine with some content being 'multi-group' without being 'raid' in the traditional sense. Organic, public, perception-based, or other ways to ask/prompt/even just show people something popped up and is worth mobbing up to kill for the sake of the game, not the sake of loot would be great. Something like Gorenaire in the Dreadlands being a nuisance, so while it's not amazing loot for those at the top of whatever progression there is, let's go drop her so she doesn't hurt the caravan routes that affect us all.
I really liked 187s earlier ideas about multi-group content having effects on the game. I just think it should be organic in the world, not a Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday night 3-4 hour affair of pushing progression.
I have definitely seen my fair share of extremely challenging group content, but it was few and far between. Raids on the other hand have offered a consistent level of challenge in almost every game I have played. I am acknowledging that yes, indeed, if the development team wants to purposely make group content harder than raid content, it would be possible. In the same token, that would mean that the group content would be considered the highest "tier" of progression. That said, where does raiding fall into the mix? If group content is designed as the hardest content in the game, wouldn't raiding be a stepping stone to that, seeing as it would be considered a lower tier? If something is considered the "hardest content in the game" shouldn't it require a character to fully progress the challenges before it in order to be properly prepared?
I am a big fan of extremely challenging group content. EQ2 delivered Nizara and Icy Dig. One thing I recall about those zones though was that the people fully outfitted in raid gear had a massive advantage compared to those who weren't. It was borderline impossible to clear those zones if you didn't have at least some raid gear. I am sticking to my guns. I believe in the vision that the end-game can comprise of many different avenues of gameplay, but that raiding will indeed be one of them. You mention that in your personal experience, the hardest group dungeons you have played were typically harder than raid content if only skill was taken into account. There was zero room for error with 5-6 people in a group. None. No slackers. I have seen that same level of ultra challenge but on a scale of 24 players. Zero room for error. Not a single mana % over or under on a single character in the raid or it was a total wipe. Not only no slackers, but no non-perfectionists.
I have seen multiple raids in multiple games that weren't completed during the expansion they were created. I have never seen that happen with group content. In fact, I don't recall a single group dungeon that wasn't completed within a couple weeks of it coming out. I will clarify again that end game is whatever a person makes of it. My version of end game is probably much different than what someone else would consider as their own. For me, it's conquering the most difficult challenges in the game. Whether that's grouping or raiding, I will always be looking to conquer the next big thing. If the game shapes out in a way that farming up raid gear is required to beat a group dungeon, so be it, that will be my end game.
Zain60 said:I certainly think it is. Because 99% of all classic MMOs had a reward structure based on raids alone, it's hard to imagine a game where raiding exists, but doesn't automatically mean a progression from grouping and superior use of your time. I think it's causing some serious mental anguish for those assuming old school means hardcore raiding.
I think we all sort of academically understand things are going to be different here, but until it's out and we sort of see it first hand, I think it's chafing people to think that "BiS" (something I hate even discussing, but it's the truth in the carrot as you stated) will not automatically be a raid item.
Also - I'm perfectly fine with some content being 'multi-group' without being 'raid' in the traditional sense. Organic, public, perception-based, or other ways to ask/prompt/even just show people something popped up and is worth mobbing up to kill for the sake of the game, not the sake of loot would be great. Something like Gorenaire in the Dreadlands being a nuisance, so while it's not amazing loot for those at the top of whatever progression there is, let's go drop her so she doesn't hurt the caravan routes that affect us all.
I really liked 187s earlier ideas about multi-group content having effects on the game. I just think it should be organic in the world, not a Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday night 3-4 hour affair of pushing progression.
Those ideas more or less revolved around killing contested content which is something I would consider purely organic in the world. You can't schedule killing contested content ... you kill it as soon as it's up or someone else will. Also, I think it would be perfectly fine if groups or multiple groups were able to make a similar impact in the world. Stuff like that wouldn't have to be exclusive to raiding. On an even larger scale, it could require the entire community. There are ways to get crafters, dungeon raiders, dragon slayers, ore miners, herb gatherers, diplomats, bankers, etc all together to work toward a common cause. Perhaps teleportation spires have some sort of maintenance requirement whereas players must keep it continually stocked with a certain resource in order for it to function? Perhaps there are certain outposts that are only opened up if X amount of Y faction is gained in Z zone. Perhaps the wares sold from merchants can fluctuate depending on various localized factors? Perhaps spell trainers are able to offer higher quality training if X amount of players complete their original training? Perhaps there will be a non KoS civilization that our characters can't understand/interact with until the community pulls together to solve the riddle of who they are, and how to communicate with them?
Understood, and to be super clear, I truly do not want to see a game that is purely max level raid only progression. If I appear to have taken that stance, I apologize, but that was never the intention. I have been reminiscing on a lot of past experiences in other games where raiding truly was the majority of end game. At the same time, though, I do have great memories where that wasn't always the case. FFXI, in particular, offered an amazing assortment of end-game flavors. The majority of the game was very challenging and there were plenty of ways to progress your character outside of raiding. EQ2, on the other hand, was basically the exact opposite. There were a few odds and ends pieces such as heritage quest rewards or over-powered legendary gear that were better than raid gear but it was few and far between. The group content in EQ2 was almost always trivial other than a couple dungeons (Nizara/Icy Dig/Runnyeye the Gathering, etc) once you were outfitted with raid gear. I don't want to see that, please, no!
I want the entire game to be challenging. When I leave town, toward whatever destination, I really hope there is some sort of danger that I'll see on the way. There should be a very real chance of me dying in the game while traversing through certain areas, especially while solo. I would love to see a game where people heavily involved in the raid scene still get to interact with parts of the non-raid players on the server. Again, that wasn't very possible in EQ2. It was super segregated. You might see someone in Qeynos or Freeport, or occassionally at a dungeon entrance (I would probably be passing through while on the way to kill a contested raid boss) but for the most part, there was a huge barrier.
I would like to enjoy all of the challenges from raiding and then still have plenty of group content in the game that might be a tad less difficult due to the stuff acquired from raiding. It should never be "easy" though. Having raid gear should not trivialize the group content. Having raid gear should be one outlet of many. I would be happy to see raid gear make up approximately 25% of the "situational BiS gear" but I can live with that number going up or down, either way. I do feel that there should be some epic rewards that are exclusive to raiding ... the same as there should be with quests, faction, dungeons, etc. Raiding is just a piece of the puzzle. If the entire game feels very challenging, I can settle for less raid content. I will always very thoroughly enjoy any/all group content that offers a great balance of risk vs reward. That's probably the single most important thing to me in the entire game.
Most guilds raid 3-4 nights a week cause they're not skilled enough to raid all content in one night. I can see top guilds go through current content in one evening or perhaps two depending on the number of raids. othrer guilds will take 4 nights a week for many weeks to kill one target once out of three times. I think there's room for everyone.
oneADseven said: With Pantheon having such a heavy emphasis on group activity, has anybody considered the fact that having multiple groups work together is still consider grouping activity? It's a group of groups after all. If you don't enjoy that kind of gameplay, more power to you. Stick with single group endeavors. Why some folks have the desire to impose a buzz kill on other players that enjoy coordinating multiple groups of players working together is beyond me. If you read the major game tenets for Pantheon, there is a big emphasis on team work, sharing experiences with friends, and overcoming obstacles. It's been stated that the majority of the game will focus on grouping. Great! I consider raiding an additional layer of grouping because again, it's a group of groups. I think it would be cool if there was game play that encouraged mutiple groups to work together even if it isn't doesn't take place as a raid. Imagine a dungeon with 4 entrances that each require a single group to progress through in order to collect some sort of temporary key ... then they meet in the middle somewhere at which point they can form a raid and unlock something using all 4 keys together.
Nobody is trying to impose a buzz kill on ya bro. I don't just want Pantheon to be a great MMO that harkens back to the roots of MMOs. I want it to be an MMO that challenges what we believe an MMO is and should be. I want it to be something new and fresh. I want it to push boundaries and not just be clone of all the other MMOs before it. I want it to create features we have not seen in MMOs and to create different angles on tried and true elements we are all familiar with. And whenever I speak on these forums I will try to challenge the devs and all of the backers here on the forums on how we think of these things. Whether you are open minded and can look at things in perspective or not is obviously entirely up to you.
Maybe saying I want raid bosses to be used sparingly was a bad choice of words but if you read the rest of my post you should be able to get the context from it which is that I still want raiding in the game. I'm just challenging everyone here to think of what else could be. Pretty much every MMO creates a raid scene/end game where you go from raid zone to raid zone and fight a dozen raid bosses 3+ nights a week. Most guilds set up a raid night by asking their guildies to put everything else on hold and dedicate the next 3-4 hours to raid. What I'm questioning and what I'm trying to challenge you all with is why does raiding have to be this way? And the answer is, it doesn't. If you like to raid like this that's great, I've had fun doing it too. But that doesn't mean there is no other way to do raids that you would enjoy. You wouldn't know it because most MMOs don't really try to change the mould for raiding. And I'm STOKED to hear Kilsin use those exact words.
edit. The italics section of your post...
This is what I mean. What if on a 'raid night' instead of dedicating the next 3 hours raiding a dozen bosses your guild partakes in multiple single group activities either in the same zone or maybe even spread out across the world. And you do this for an hour or two and then once you get all the neccessary keys and flags you then raid a few raid bosses like maybe 3. And this would fill out your 'raid night'. Instead of raiding a dozen bosses 3 nights a week your guild could potentially raid 3-5 bosses every night. But it wouldn't just be boss after boss full on raid force. It would mix single group content and raid content together.
Fluffy said:Raids could be so much more than instanced *funhouse*
seen in most of these games
Group content could mesh and merge into larger group content like what is suggested here (a more organic solution?)*
Not sure if I used this word in any of my previous posts trying to explain myself but 'organic' was the EXACT word I was thinking when I wrote my posts down. I agree that the raid 'funhouse' seems to contrived. I'd love to see raiding happen in a much more organic sense. Why do we have to dedicate an entire night to killing raid bosses. That seems so themepark to me. Throw these bosses in the game in a much more organic way where your raid night won't just consist of you killing raid boss after raid boss after raid boss.'Raid night' could consist of single group content, possibly some really challenging 1group content, and then killing a couple raid bosses. THEN, maybe you have to craft something deep in a dungeon while your group or groups fend off monsters in order to create an item you need for the next phase of your night.