Many MMOs today create an 'end-game' which tends to focus heavily on raiding. For many the game becomes about rushing to the end to partake in all of the raid activities. Giant zones filled to the brim with raid bosses. Creating an atmosphere where players have to hunker down with their guilds and dedicate 3-4 nights a week to go kill boss after boss after boss. With each xpac zone after zone is created filled with these bosses. Which is fun don't get me wrong. I loved raiding in Vanguard. LOVED IT! But does raiding HAVE to be this way? Do you prefer raiding to be this way where raiding is sort of similar to a funhouse of raid bosses? Or would you prefer a raiding atmosphere where the bosses fit into the world a bit more organically spread out across the map where you still get to raid and reap the rewards but without having to commit to a daily raid schedule?
I would really love to see raid bosses used sparingly in Pantheon. Think of VG without APW. Have a few overland raid bosses and then have a bunch of epic questlines with badass single group bosses and then a raid boss here and there to finish off the questlines. No big raid zone that houses 20 raid bosses like APW or like how WoW and Rift have a dozen zones filled with raid bosses. If we could give reason to WHY we engage raid bosses rather than just a funzone filled with them I think it would curb the entire raid scene end-game mantra. You wouldn't necessarily even have to set up a raid schedule for your guild because there would be no need to hammer out raid bosses on a nightly basis. As much as I loved raiding in VG, Pantheon could potentially create a different type of raiding atmosphere. Where emphasis is removed from rushing to end-game just to raid 4 nights out of the week and placed on single group content with epic questlines toward the end of the game. Which sounds sort of like what the devs want and right up PRFs alley.
I know this won't be popular with everyone because I know some will most likely love the raid scene where you kill raid boss after raid boss. I had a lot of fun doing it over the years in a few different MMOs so I know that feeling and I'm not even sure if I'd like a raid scene to NOT be this. But I would also like to see a change and/or the end of the 'end-game' as well as not having to commit to 3+ nights a week to a video game to simply enjoy raiding. Cheers!
edit.I know raiding has been discussed plenty of times but I haven't found anything discussing changing the raid scene by removing the trend of actual raid zones. Which is what this thread deals with.
@NoobieDoo
Somewhat agree with you. Not that I wouldnt want to see Raids, but as this is a group focussed game, I would like to see more emphasis on high end single group content. Not just group content, but hard, challenging group content that is every bit as much as hard and rewarding as Raids, same with crafting etc. Just a very mixed approach to what we consider endgame.
Not sure if you caught this little statement, but it's important and I think it applies well here...
From the FAQ:
(9.2) "...most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding..."
Pantheon has been designed this way from the start. Hopefully that eases some of your concerns, Noobie.
To me,raids,battlegrounds and endgame are byproducts of instanced games where it became a process to disparate players into smaller categories
In essence there is solo and group play in my opinion
The size content is designed around is all that is to it.
MMOs have systematically classified content designed for different group sizes into categories over the past decade,while people that like large and small group content should not be mutually exclusive.
Over the years players have adopted the identity *raider* because that is how all wow clones have adopted it and they don't know any different now.
In no way am I against content designed for larger group sizes.But I think the raid concept in a way has polarized the community
*either join the funhouse or join the boring nerds that prefer regular content and are not into all the 'hardcore stuff'*
So at the same time,I do believe we need an ending to endgame*
Pantheon should have content designed around larger groups,without the raid scene end-game mantra that has been adopted for longer than a decade now.
It has been poor design adopted for so long even the players have adopted it.
If this game is about community it might even be destructive to have content push players into separate opposing groups
I understand why people love epic large size group encounters
In one raid topic I suggested Dynasty missions that would be long period epic quests designed for larger groups(a whole alignement)
It gives this reason why we engage in such large group content activities,a common goal.
It removes the emphasis to rush to endgame raiding;the current events of the alignment become the main concern,and you are free to participate in it;don't need anyone's approval or permission.
So yea,I agree with NoobieDoo we need to remove the adopted raid scene.
Part of how I think it is achieved I just mentioned.
It pains me to see how people desire a decade of poor larger group design in MMOs (that is the raid scene) adopted.
Nephretiti said:Wasn't there a post somewhere that said something like 20% - 60% - 20% solo - group - raid? I seem to recall that... I could be mistaken!
Bazgrim said:Not sure if you caught this little statement, but it's important and I think it applies well here...
From the FAQ:
(9.2) "...most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding..."
Pantheon has been designed this way from the start. Hopefully that eases some of your concerns, Noobie.
Spot on man, the entire game is being created with this in mind and has from the start, raiding is no different.
I will always consider raiding end-game. Would love to see group content that is as challenging/rewarding as raiding but unfortunately that isn't something I have ever been able to experience. The end-game is whatever an individual person makes of it. For me, end-game is seeking out the most difficult challenges possible and then conquering them. End-game is "beating the boss" over and over and over again just like the majority of games I have played in my life. Most games have difficulty settings. For me, when it comes to playing an MMO, raiding is playing on the highest difficulty setting. In other ways, it's like opening up a secret level/map/mission ... bonus content, of sorts, after you beat the rest of the game.
Most importantly ... raiding has always been the backbone of every guild I have ever been a part of. Raiding attracts the kind of people that I enjoy socializing with. For me, raiding enables large-scale teamwork operations. It offers a sense of comradery that simply isn't possible with grouping. I like playing with other tanks. Some of my best friends over the years have been tanks. I like playing with several of my tank friends on a regular basis. That isn't something I can do with group content. I like spending the evening working with multiple groups of friends that pull together for a common cause. That's intensely social for me. That's fun ... that's end-game ... just for me, of course.
Kilson, I'm not sure if you've ever played EQ1 or not, but if not I'm sure you could ask Brad. The original EQ was a group focused game with very little raiding. The first expansion, Kunark, introduced quite a bit of raiding, but was still primarily a group focused game. Velious, the 2nd expansion, offered even more extensive raiding, still group focused game, but now closer to having raiding being on an equal importance. Luclin was a simialr expansion that probably made it about equal. And then Planes of Power really turned EQ into a raid oriented game. My question for you Kilson is which of those versions of EQ are you guys shooting for in terms of "feel" in relation to raiding for Pantheon. Putting it in this context would really help me understand what you're shooting for.
They are all different tiers, slowly moving away from group focused to raid focused.
EQ Original (90% group focused)
Kunark (75% group focused)
Velious (60% group focused)
Luclin (50% group focused)
Planes of Power (25% group focused)
Mathir said:Kilson, I'm not sure if you've ever played EQ1 or not, but if not I'm sure you could ask Brad. The original EQ was a group focused game with very little raiding. The first expansion, Kunark, introduced quite a bit of raiding, but was still primarily a group focused game. Velious, the 2nd expansion, offered even more extensive raiding, still group focused game, but now closer to having raiding being on an equal importance. Luclin was a simialr expansion that probably made it about equal. And then Planes of Power really turned EQ into a raid oriented game. My question for you Kilson is which of those versions of EQ are you guys shooting for in terms of "feel" in relation to raiding for Pantheon. Putting it in this context would really help me understand what you're shooting for.
They are all different tiers, slowly moving away from group focused to raid focused.
EQ Original (90% group focused)
Kunark (75% group focused)
Velious (60% group focused)
Luclin (50% group focused)
Planes of Power (25% group focused)
While I only played EQ for around 1 year due to being very active with sports at a semi-professional level back then and having a very poor PC, I did not raid in EQ, I have watched lots of those raids and heard a lot about them from the community, friends and the team, so I feel I have a good feel for them (I raided or many years in VG and was a guild leader/raid leader, so I am a raider at heart and am very familiar with raiding) but in Pantheon we are not basing our raiding on any other game, we want to break the mould and make the 1-50 experience king, raiding will be there for sure but as per our FAQ:
Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding.
We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.
First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. That is not the case. We want the game to be fun and adventurous, finding skills and items throughout your entire experience from low to max level. Lastly, we will be launching expansions frequently enough to keep ahead of most players and raising the level cap as necessary.
Raiding is what will get me to min max my character and pay for a sub long after I have hit max level.
If there's not enough of it to support a guild activity 2-3 nights a week I'll play to max level and then quit until more raids are made.
I can't see just playing group content for years on end.
True raid progression and extremely hard raid mobs that wipe out guilds are what I'm most interested in.
I think this is a niche that Pantheon should try to support although I feel like maybe I'm one of a dying breed of raiders.
Honestly Kilsin saying that they will raise the level cap as necessary is kind of a bummer to me as I would much rather see more horizontal progression versus just adding more levels.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
To me this revolves around two aspects:
1. Raiding should be about a different type of challenge, not necessarily the most difficult.
The general idea behind raiding is it's the most difficult content and therefore has the best gear and therefore pushes most people to want to do it. Doesn't have to be that way, it's just the way practically every game has done it for the past umpteen years. Ironically, it took a game like Destiny to show me you could have very difficult, fun, engaging content for groups that felt every bit as difficult and hardcore as raids of 40 people. It just felt different than when playing with a larger group. To me that's the key. Make raiding something different, not something necessary.
The backside of this argument is it's far more difficult to arrange the schedule of 40 people and manage them through an evening of play. I concede that wholly and leave it to the devs to create a way to make raiding worth the effort without making it feel like the natural end-game that gives the best loot.
2. Slow down the levelling to spread the server population out.
Much easier to dangle that progression carrot and keep ahead of the max-level curve when it takes a long time to get there. You want to keep people happy playing your game for longer? Make it take longer to "finish". This also plays into the non-instanced world. If you have this large bunch of players that all stay within relatively the same level range, then you either get a zone over/under populated with players. This is true at end-game as well.
One of the things Kilsin mentioned was very true in EQ but not so much in other games. In EQ you could always tell who paid for their character at higher level. Even though it had far fewer active skills than other games, it required much more know-how in playing said character. I can see how this longer "grind" would be seen as not so fun to those looking for a more "active" game. To me, EQ always felt like it required more strategy and the later games of today require more twitch. From what I've seen the strategy is coming back and I love to see it.
I'm usually not one to say "trust the devs." If you've read most of my posts you know that's true. However, one of the best aspects of the streams this past week is how easy it is to believe that you can. Prior to this week, I always found Kilsin's 'this isn't EQ or VG, we're making our own game" rather annoying. Like just answer the question already. After the streams, I see why he says that and what it means. I saw so many of the EQ/VG aspects that I wanted, but I also saw innovation and difference and uniqueness. So in the end, just "trust the devs".
I totally agree with the devs mentality on this, I want to have fun and memories of my leveling and progession and I want to make more then one character and have different adventures.
That said mmos since almost 20 years cater around the end game, expect that players will come to pantheon with that mindset and will try by any ways to rush the content and get max level. Hopefully the game will be hard enough to prevent that because in the end as much as you repeat and say it on these forums, people will try to do it and blame the game for not delivering end content.
If you want the game to succeed you need to keep that in mind, it's really important. Players these days get bored pretty quick when they reach the end point.
That 20-60-20 quote has me in the same boat as the raiders for one of the few times in my life (I have raided - been in raiding guilds, even - but always preferred groups to raids).
The only difference is polarity - I would like some of the group "60" to move to the left (solo) whereas they want some of it to move to the right (raids).
Actually I think the 20-60-20 quote may not be as relevant as some people think. The game as a whole may aim for 20-60-20 but will each phase of it? I think not. Thus the starter zones may be much more than 20% solo to let people get their feet wet and make friends, and maybe have no level 5 raids at all. Whereas at level cap there may be a lot more gouping and a lot less raiding than in some MMOs but I would guess that raiding may be over 20% and soloing may be less than 20% (alas).
Kilsin said:Mathir said:Kilson, I'm not sure if you've ever played EQ1 or not, but if not I'm sure you could ask Brad. The original EQ was a group focused game with very little raiding. The first expansion, Kunark, introduced quite a bit of raiding, but was still primarily a group focused game. Velious, the 2nd expansion, offered even more extensive raiding, still group focused game, but now closer to having raiding being on an equal importance. Luclin was a simialr expansion that probably made it about equal. And then Planes of Power really turned EQ into a raid oriented game. My question for you Kilson is which of those versions of EQ are you guys shooting for in terms of "feel" in relation to raiding for Pantheon. Putting it in this context would really help me understand what you're shooting for.
They are all different tiers, slowly moving away from group focused to raid focused.
EQ Original (90% group focused)
Kunark (75% group focused)
Velious (60% group focused)
Luclin (50% group focused)
Planes of Power (25% group focused)
While I only played EQ for around 1 year due to being very active with sports at a semi-professional level back then and having a very poor PC, I did not raid in EQ, I have watched lots of those raids and heard a lot about them from the community, friends and the team, so I feel I have a good feel for them (I raided or many years in VG and was a guild leader/raid leader, so I am a raider at heart and am very familiar with raiding) but in Pantheon we are not basing our raiding on any other game, we want to break the mould and make the 1-50 experience king, raiding will be there for sure but as per our FAQ:
- 9.1 Will you be able to raid in Pantheon?
Yes, there will be Raid content in Pantheon. That said, the majority of content is being designed for grouping, with the remainder for soloing or raiding.
- 9.2 What do you envision the ‘End Game’ scene to be like? Classic style, with inherently difficult raids? Or more contemporary with many different levels of difficulty? Do you guys plan on raiding at all?
We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.
First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. That is not the case. We want the game to be fun and adventurous, finding skills and items throughout your entire experience from low to max level. Lastly, we will be launching expansions frequently enough to keep ahead of most players and raising the level cap as necessary.
Thanks for the reply Kilsin! I'll infer from that response that you guys are aiming for somewhere between a classic and Kunark style game experience. I think most people would be fine with that as long as it tilts a little more towards Kunark (hopefully). The only thing that "end game" really represented to me was joining a large guild of people, almost a loose-knit family, and now instead of just progressing your character, it became about progressing the guild. I'm not sure how you really advance a guild and become a close knit bond without extensive raiding, so I am very interested to see what you folks have cooked up to solve that. I have no doubt you guys have the same long term goals as we potential players do, I think we'll all get there at some point. I do believe raiding and "end game" might end up being a bigger part of the pie than you guys might hope for at this point. But, I'm open minded. As long as you have something to do that allows guilds to compete and achieve together, that'll be enough. Personally, I don't want to just group forever though. At some point, I look forward to hitting the xp cap and starting the gear accumulation grind and the guild progression challenge.
Another thought with the alarmist disposition in mind;
The gang,brotherhood,clan etc you fight could have an awareness level linked to the alarmist disposition
The force used against a few intruders would be way less,compared to when the place gets invaded by a larger group of players
The type of mobs that are attacked will offer resistance and use force increasingly,accordingly when invaded
Once the resistance-against-invaders-stage becomes active,rare bosses for large group content will spawn
So any group area could evolve into a large group area(raid but don't like to call it raid,the tower shown in the last stream could evolve into a raid this way too)
Maybe this could even make kill stealing a thing of the past
As players would be happy to see more players participate in the fight,in order to increase pressure on a certain target group of mobs
To help see to it that the awareness and resistance levels reaches top tier
which transforms it into a large group area
Bazgrim said:Not sure if you caught this little statement, but it's important and I think it applies well here...
From the FAQ:
(9.2) "...most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding..."
Pantheon has been designed this way from the start. Hopefully that eases some of your concerns, Noobie.
I love this. I've always felt that in any game, there should be multiple ways to achieve an end result. If grouping is the centerpiece of the Pantheon experience, then I would think it follows that there will be ways to achieve raid-level accomplishments through grouping as well. At least I hope so.
To some degree, games have tried to do this in the past by offering rewards to those who "grind" through many, many solo or group quests to earn a type of currency to purchase items similar to raid level drops. They rationale being if you have to spend X hours doing X number of raids to finally get the drop you need, you should spend the same number of hours doing something that does not require a full raid, instead perhaps a group, to achieve the same result. And the easy way to do that is stuffing the game with repeatable quests. Effective in terms of achieving the goal, but certainly not the optional experience for the gamer.
In my opinion, the thing that these solutions ignore is that the journey shouldn't just be about the time spent on getting something. It should also be about the growth of your character, either in skills or reputation, or some other aspect that gives weight to the decision you make on how to accomplish a goal (get x piece of armor, etc.). For example, perhaps you earn a bit of "heroic" status every time you raid with a large group taking on very dangerous raid bosses. So you're not only putting yourself in a situation where you might get the item through typical dkp type loot distribution, but your character is also "changing" in the eyes of the world around him/her by becoming more "heroic". That new status perhaps allows you access to new vendors, or better prices, etc.. But, perhaps you earn other types of status or skills by choosing to embark on quests that get you to the same place. For example, you work up your faction with a group aligned with the boss mob by helping them with a large line of other group related content, and by earning this faction, you eventually have enough of their trust to ask them to persuade the boss (or his friends) to sell you the item, or reward it to you for doing great things for this group of people. Perhaps this gives you access to new vendors, or recipes, etc.
These types of choices are "juicy", and effect how your character is perceived in the world. This is something i have ALWAYS wanted to see in a game, and from what I've read here about Pantheon, I'm hopeful that they're heading down that path.
Angrykiz said:Raiding is what will get me to min max my character and pay for a sub long after I have hit max level.
If there's not enough of it to support a guild activity 2-3 nights a week I'll play to max level and then quit until more raids are made.
I can't see just playing group content for years on end.
True raid progression and extremely hard raid mobs that wipe out guilds are what I'm most interested in.
I think this is a niche that Pantheon should try to support although I feel like maybe I'm one of a dying breed of raiders.
Honestly Kilsin saying that they will raise the level cap as necessary is kind of a bummer to me as I would much rather see more horizontal progression versus just adding more levels.
Thanks for reading,
Kiz~
Most definitely, and I'm sure many others feel the same as you which is why I brought this up. Because there are some who don't have the time to raid like this. And then there are others like myself who either have the time to raid but would prefer more single group content and not have to dedicate so many nights to raiding or others who just wan't to see change.
I'm curious if raiding could be done in a different way, different than dedicating 3-4 hours a night and strictly killing as many raid targets you can, that players like yourself could enjoy.
Bazgrim said:Not sure if you caught this little statement, but it's important and I think it applies well here...
From the FAQ:
(9.2) "...most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding..."
Pantheon has been designed this way from the start. Hopefully that eases some of your concerns, Noobie.
This is what I was referring to when I said the idea I had "should be right up PRF's alley". Kiz's response though is why I brought this up. The point I'm trying to stress though is that even though raiding is going to be only a small portion of Pantheon it still could have those giant raid zones where you play whacka mole with raid bosses. As much as I loved raiding, getting together with dozens of guildmates and friends, working together to defeat bosses we've never beat before, getting all that magical badass loot, getting stuck on a boss for nights on end to finally beat him and the feeling that came with that, I would like to see a different approach to raiding where it isn't about dedicating 3 nights a week to strictly fighting raid boss after raid boss.
And the reason I bring this up is like I said, the number 20% keeps getting thrown around and seems like single group content will be king in PRF but this doesn't change the fact that 20% still could mean giant raid zones filled with raid bosses resulting in dedicating 3 nights a week to kill boss after boss. 20% doesn't automatically mean this can't happen. And I'm not concerned about it, if large raid zones are in PRF I will be raiding 3+ nights a week lol and love it. I bring this up because there are many who LOVE this type of thing. Others who don't have the time to raid on a dedicated schedule but would still love the great gear that comes from raiding. And others, like myself, who would just like to see a change in the raid scene and/or end-game scene. And it's good to hear the devs say that they have plans on breaking the mould that which is the raid scene.
oneADseven said:... If you don't enjoy that kind of gameplay, more power to you. Stick with single group endeavors. Why some folks have the desire to impose a buzz kill on other players that enjoy coordinating multiple groups of players working together is beyond me. ...
... I think it would be cool if there was game play that encouraged mutiple groups to work together even if it isn't doesn't take place as a raid. Imagine a dungeon with 4 entrances that each require a single group to progress through in order to collect some sort of temporary key ... then they meet in the middle somewhere at which point they can form a raid and unlock something using all 4 keys together.
I think the concern with raiding is it typically becomes the focus of end-game. Not sure that anyone is calling for no raids. I certainly hope raiding is a signficant part of the game, but not to the detriment of smaller groups. From what Kilsin and the other devs have said, they're well aware of this concern and have plans to make it work.
As to your example, sounds cool, but it's essentially just a raid. Since raids aren't really for xp, 4 (hopefully more) individual groups having to work together is what a raid is all about. However, I do hope they add raids of this nature instead of the tank/spank/dodge stuff we so frequently see.
I love the idea of having some really challenging group content to go along with challenging raid content at max level. Having both would be a huge advantage.
Most guilds raid 3 - 4 times a week and on the off days you'd want some group content to do and the sort of challenging group content I am talking about would be perfect for those days when you are not raiding. I like group content that forces everyone to play their classes really well. Perhaps you will wipe on it the first couple of times but then you learn the encounter and can get some really good rewards and XP for the amount of work you have put in. I'm hopeful that the developers won't forget high end group content which most people will be able to take part in even if they don't have the ability to raid on a regular basis which does take a lot more time to organise.
oneADseven said: Imagine a dungeon with 4 entrances that each require a single group to progress through in order to collect some sort of temporary key ... then they meet in the middle somewhere at which point they can form a raid and unlock something using all 4 keys together.
Lovely
Raids could be so much more than instanced *funhouse*
seen in most of these games
Group content could mesh and merge into larger group content like what is suggested here (a more organic solution?)
*
Dynamic NPC Encounter Groups
The world is not static and unchanging – every day is not ‘groundhog’ day.
Events occur that can completely change the population of a zone or the population of a group of NPCs within a zone (and the rarer the event, the rarer the rewards -
- many exotic items can only be obtained when one of these zone events occur). An example: after you kill some key mobs guarding a hill giant camp, this triggers a zone event that loads up an invading force of Storm Giants
who then proceed to attack the Hill Giant camp.
*
a raid
*a sudden assault or attack, as upon something to be seized or suppressed/ a sudden attack on the enemy, as by a small land force*
By definition what is mentioned in the dynamic NPC group encounters is a raid
Long epic quest chains that are rare events,with rare rewards.(such as gryphon pets)
The actual ingame events that are currently happening ,appear in the center of attention with this approach to large group content
All that might be needed,a different approach
With the right vision, larger group content could provide a surplus value to the overall quality time with the community.
A raiding atmosphere where everything connects more organically ,while dumping the entire end-game raid scene mantra at the same time
Edit: an attempt to fomulate things a little different so it might be easier to understand
oneADseven said: With Pantheon having such a heavy emphasis on group activity, has anybody considered the fact that having multiple groups work together is still consider grouping activity? It's a group of groups after all. If you don't enjoy that kind of gameplay, more power to you. Stick with single group endeavors. Why some folks have the desire to impose a buzz kill on other players that enjoy coordinating multiple groups of players working together is beyond me. If you read the major game tenets for Pantheon, there is a big emphasis on team work, sharing experiences with friends, and overcoming obstacles. It's been stated that the majority of the game will focus on grouping. Great! I consider raiding an additional layer of grouping because again, it's a group of groups. I think it would be cool if there was game play that encouraged mutiple groups to work together even if it isn't doesn't take place as a raid. Imagine a dungeon with 4 entrances that each require a single group to progress through in order to collect some sort of temporary key ... then they meet in the middle somewhere at which point they can form a raid and unlock something using all 4 keys together.
I used to think this was the case. When Pantheon released there tenets and features. I assumed group meant both single and multiple group content. But I think it was over at MMORPG.com that he had later clarified that he considered group content in the tenets and features to specifically mean single group content. This was later clarified even further with the quote people have been using for the focus on single grup content and that there would be a small amount of raid and solo content. So group content is apparently meaning single group, unless they specifically say multi-group or raid content as far as VR is concerned.
Not even against your idea necessarily, but thought it relevant.