Forums » The Warrior

Taunting/Agro Control

    • 18 posts
    April 30, 2017 11:35 AM PDT

    I have not seen this talked about yet so I am going to start a conversation about Taunting.  In my eyes you 3 types of way to get agro off of a caster/healer..

    1) A single target taunt that makes the mob stop what it is doing and turn and attack you.  Duration of how long that mob is on you is up for debate.

    2) Hate/Agreesion Table.  The highest player on the list keeps and get's agro,  Normally there is some type of Agro/Hate dump that can be done by DPS to a single target to make sure that the top of the table is held by a Tank.

    3) Multiple Target Taunt that does not reguire you to attack a single mob.  You can AOE and this becomes an instant taunt that will turn mobs.

     

    I personally like the single target taunt for Warriors.  Normally a Warrior will have duel wield so they will be doing damange on mobs and it would force us to attack multiple mobs at one time if we want to keep or pull more then one mob at a time.  If I just have to hit an AOE taunt, then stand there that isn't fun.  Make us work for our AOE groups.   However, I do like that one of Tank Types has an AOE taunt like the Dire Lord or the Paladin from Vanguard.  Big cool down, but something that can be used if all heck breaks loose.

    What do you guys like for Taunting and Agro Control?

     

     

    • 21 posts
    April 30, 2017 1:05 PM PDT
    Actually had a pretty good discussion on this topic here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/1636/new-concept-for-warriors/view/page/1 I think page 2 is where it really got into it
    • 18 posts
    May 1, 2017 4:23 PM PDT

    Thanks

    • 21 posts
    May 2, 2017 2:37 PM PDT

    No worries

    • 460 posts
    May 3, 2017 11:38 PM PDT

    Kecho said:

    If I just have to hit an AOE taunt, then stand there that isn't fun.  Make us work for our AOE groups. 

    Definitely a fan of this line!

    You may be also interested in putting your 2 cents in here re: the good and bad of AoE Taunt (and DPS)

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3132/keeping-aoe-dps-aoe-taunting-to-a-minimum

     

    • 2705 posts
    May 4, 2017 5:21 AM PDT

    This is the description of Taunt we have from Cohh's monk in the April stream:

    Taunt: "Taunt your target to attack you, generating increased threat for 3 seconds. [L1]"

    So it is single-target and over-time. It does not appear to automatically guarantee you to be at the top of the hate list. I suspect the amount of damage you deal within those three seconds will make a big difference as to how much threat you can generate. The taunt just amplifies it. I also suspect increased levels of Taunt will increase the amount of hate generated and possibly the duration.

    • 3 posts
    May 14, 2017 9:20 PM PDT

    warriors use DPS for AE aggro in Vanguard.

    • 14 posts
    June 8, 2017 3:41 PM PDT

    Lol... go watch that new Wonder Woman movie.

    Best. MT. Ever.

    'She's taking all the fire! ASSIST! ASSIST!'

    I'll take a Warrior Class just like that, thanks. Complete with the guys in the back wondering when the nerf is coming.

    And if she was any weaker.. her Leeroy Jenkins of No Man's Land would have been awesome.

     

     


    This post was edited by Quillim at June 8, 2017 3:44 PM PDT
    • 119 posts
    June 14, 2017 8:12 AM PDT

    I hope to see more positional MoB control. Give warriors the ability to harpoon a fleeing MoB to pull them back or deliver a kick to the knee to keep them from racing after the healer. I never understood the concept that yelling profanities at a giant rat would keep it attacking me instead of the wizard throwing fireballs at it.

    • 175 posts
    October 3, 2017 8:59 PM PDT

    Kecho said:

    I have not seen this talked about yet so I am going to start a conversation about Taunting.  In my eyes you 3 types of way to get agro off of a caster/healer..

    1) A single target taunt that makes the mob stop what it is doing and turn and attack you.  Duration of how long that mob is on you is up for debate.

    2) Hate/Agreesion Table.  The highest player on the list keeps and get's agro,  Normally there is some type of Agro/Hate dump that can be done by DPS to a single target to make sure that the top of the table is held by a Tank.

    3) Multiple Target Taunt that does not reguire you to attack a single mob.  You can AOE and this becomes an instant taunt that will turn mobs.

    I personally like the single target taunt for Warriors.  Normally a Warrior will have duel wield so they will be doing damange on mobs and it would force us to attack multiple mobs at one time if we want to keep or pull more then one mob at a time.  If I just have to hit an AOE taunt, then stand there that isn't fun.  Make us work for our AOE groups.   However, I do like that one of Tank Types has an AOE taunt like the Dire Lord or the Paladin from Vanguard.  Big cool down, but something that can be used if all heck breaks loose.

    What do you guys like for Taunting and Agro Control?

    I've always said since the early EQ days I could care less if I hit like a wet noodle so long as I can hold aggro and mitigate damage. That stands true today. I'm hoping that the warrior's aggro holding ability will in some ways be tied to their weapon choice. So for an example, say a sword and shield warrior along with taunts will also have the added bonus of being able to deliver a shield bash that may can interrupt casting and generate a bit more aggro. 

    In earlier EQ aggro became a kind of group responsibility as there was no AoE taunt for warriors, so it wasn't solely on the tank. Nuke happy wizards had to time their attacks or risk getting a facial realignment. :) But I've always viewed the AoE taunt as a long term taunt that comes sealed in a jar with a sign that reads, "Break Glass in Case of a Train".

    However, Vanguard offered some other options to help augment a warrior's tanking ability with both offensive and defensive targets and skills for each. There are a lot of good tanking abilities that have come out over the years that it would be nice to see in some form as the warrior that go beyond just taunting, but don't really enhance the damage of the warrior such as a long cooldown skill in LOTRO called Turn the Tables, which if stunned would allow the tank to reverse it (handy if a few mobs popped up and one stunned you before you could react)). From Vanguard you had skills like Protect, which would allow you to intercept an attack on your defensive target. There are a lot of useful skills that can be added without making them feel like just another caster.

    That being said, if all goes as we hope, the enchanter or other CC classes should be handling those adds as trying to tank multiples will probably end in a tragic (though sometimes comedic) disastrous end.

     :)

    • 279 posts
    October 14, 2017 2:14 PM PDT

    I would love a combination of EQ and WoW.  Taunt aggro for x seconds, but also puts you atop the aggro table.

     

    From the description of our taunt iteration... it looks pretty good!

    • 175 posts
    October 14, 2017 6:20 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    I would love a combination of EQ and WoW.  Taunt aggro for x seconds, but also puts you atop the aggro table.

     

    From the description of our taunt iteration... it looks pretty good!

    Tell you another skill that sometimes had hilarious consequence to help with aggro control. Rift's sabo build had a skill where you could put explosive charges on a mob and then toss a mark on your tank and then detonate and then tranfer the aggro. Now that was handy for pulling, but if the sabo forgot to mark the tank for transfer, well, hilarity ensued.

    • 279 posts
    October 14, 2017 10:48 PM PDT

    Kratuk said:

    Porygon said:

    I would love a combination of EQ and WoW.  Taunt aggro for x seconds, but also puts you atop the aggro table.

     

    From the description of our taunt iteration... it looks pretty good!

    Tell you another skill that sometimes had hilarious consequence to help with aggro control. Rift's sabo build had a skill where you could put explosive charges on a mob and then toss a mark on your tank and then detonate and then tranfer the aggro. Now that was handy for pulling, but if the sabo forgot to mark the tank for transfer, well, hilarity ensued.

     

    Wow hunter forgets to misdirect... ive done.. err seen that happen before.

    • 1213 posts
    October 19, 2017 11:23 AM PDT

    I'd love for there to be no AoE taunts, let's make this a group effort again. Maybe the warrior does pick up that add because there is no CC for it but it should often be a losing battle/race against time as the mobs hit hard enough that the healer can only really sustain healing against the damage of 1 mob. 

     

    Make tanks all about working to control aggro and not have it be nearly as braindead as it is in modern games. Make it not entirely uncommon for a tank to lose aggro but give them other tools for when that happens such as: the protect/cover ability to take a % of damage for an ally, a triggered ability with high threat that can be used only when another party member takes a critical hit or falls below 30-40% hp. Things of that nature. 

    • 279 posts
    October 19, 2017 6:09 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I'd love for there to be no AoE taunts, let's make this a group effort again. Maybe the warrior does pick up that add because there is no CC for it but it should often be a losing battle/race against time as the mobs hit hard enough that the healer can only really sustain healing against the damage of 1 mob. 

     

    Make tanks all about working to control aggro and not have it be nearly as braindead as it is in modern games. Make it not entirely uncommon for a tank to lose aggro but give them other tools for when that happens such as: the protect/cover ability to take a % of damage for an ally, a triggered ability with high threat that can be used only when another party member takes a critical hit or falls below 30-40% hp. Things of that nature. 

    I've seen people say this a few times,  I feel I understand what you want,  but making mobs hit super hard is only going to make the game miserable for other classes lol. 

    You didn't have alot of ae taunt abilities in classic eq, but you could tank 3 or 4 mobs in a well built group. 

    If the mobs are hitting so hard that you can only tank one,  that going to result in alot of dead healers and dps

    • 1213 posts
    October 19, 2017 8:25 PM PDT

    People will adjust, and I suspect that ties in to how they are pushing a "Quaternity" instead of the traditional "Holy Trinity." Making the CC role/classes just as important as Tank/Healer/DPS but otherwise keeping the challenge to the game, they don't want us safe and just chilling in a camp.

     

    Here are some examples from the May stream where they talk about it: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=40m42s

     

    And more specifically to the damage output of mobs: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=43m42s

    Wizard taking aggro: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=47m45s

    Explaination of wizard taking aggro and take on difficulty design: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=52m42s

    Example of how quickly things can go sour if your group isn't on top of things: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=1h1m9s

    And here too: https://youtu.be/uia9jADhav8?t=1h17m25s

     

     

     

    I know this is all subject to change but I hope they keep the design philosophy of making it hard, keeping it hard, then slightly tweaking based on how they think players might be able to overcome it. 

    • 1845 posts
    October 20, 2017 1:09 PM PDT

    I don't know sold I am on the idea of control being properly represented in the quaternity.  Is every group going to need an enchanter?  We have 1 out of 14 classes that is likely to be designated as control, but that role takes up 25% of the quaternity.  That will cause some pretty massive disparities in role availability.  Even if other classes can fill in with their secondary role being control, that could still lead to cookie cutter compositions.  You either bring an enchanter, or are forced to bring one of the other few classes that have limited CC.  It's possible that without an enchanter, you might have to bring multiple classes with control as their secondary role to make up the difference.  Kind of hard to speculate at this point but I wonder just how important the control sphere will be ... and how many classes can fulfill it.

    • 1213 posts
    October 20, 2017 1:22 PM PDT

    Yeah, I don't know how they are planning on making control an added main role...maybe they also are the only classes that will have mana & endurance regen buffs as well as the strongest hastes, slows, and other kinds of spells that manipulate/control a fight?  I figure it will end up being very nice to have, potentially maxing group efficiency/exp, but not a hard requirement ...but to be fair DPS isn't generally a hard requirement either as a group of four tanks and two healers could probably pull off most content. It's more just a safety/efficiency issue. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at October 20, 2017 1:22 PM PDT
    • 175 posts
    October 21, 2017 3:02 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    I don't know sold I am on the idea of control being properly represented in the quaternity.  Is every group going to need an enchanter?  We have 1 out of 14 classes that is likely to be designated as control, but that role takes up 25% of the quaternity.  That will cause some pretty massive disparities in role availability.  Even if other classes can fill in with their secondary role being control, that could still lead to cookie cutter compositions.  You either bring an enchanter, or are forced to bring one of the other few classes that have limited CC.  It's possible that without an enchanter, you might have to bring multiple classes with control as their secondary role to make up the difference.  Kind of hard to speculate at this point but I wonder just how important the control sphere will be ... and how many classes can fulfill it.

    I'm not sure if you played EverQuest or not, but the simple rule of thumb with a 6-player group was tank, healer, dps, CC, and fill the other 2 with whatever works. The benefit of having a 6 player group is that if you're careful you can get by without a solid CC class, though it does help a great deal. As for CC classes itself, more than the enchanter can do CC though not quite as effective. Any class with a snare, root or some sort of mez/stun can fill that void to some degree. Druids were handy in EQ for that as they could either root or snare kite adds if needed. Other classes could perform similar roles but you could also have a skilled puller that could avoid adds all together barring some great disaster. All of those things working in tandem made for plentiful options when grouping when it came to how to approach something.  It''s something that's been in murky waters over the last decade or so.


    This post was edited by Kratuk at October 21, 2017 3:04 PM PDT
    • 1213 posts
    October 22, 2017 2:31 PM PDT

    Yeah but other classes that dabble in CC aren't exactly CC classes and would still make this game be  "Trinity" based  instead of a "Quaternity." 

    • 279 posts
    October 22, 2017 6:17 PM PDT

    Kratuk said:

    oneADseven said:

    I don't know sold I am on the idea of control being properly represented in the quaternity.  Is every group going to need an enchanter?  We have 1 out of 14 classes that is likely to be designated as control, but that role takes up 25% of the quaternity.  That will cause some pretty massive disparities in role availability.  Even if other classes can fill in with their secondary role being control, that could still lead to cookie cutter compositions.  You either bring an enchanter, or are forced to bring one of the other few classes that have limited CC.  It's possible that without an enchanter, you might have to bring multiple classes with control as their secondary role to make up the difference.  Kind of hard to speculate at this point but I wonder just how important the control sphere will be ... and how many classes can fulfill it.

    I'm not sure if you played EverQuest or not, but the simple rule of thumb with a 6-player group was tank, healer, dps, CC, and fill the other 2 with whatever works. The benefit of having a 6 player group is that if you're careful you can get by without a solid CC class, though it does help a great deal. As for CC classes itself, more than the enchanter can do CC though not quite as effective. Any class with a snare, root or some sort of mez/stun can fill that void to some degree. Druids were handy in EQ for that as they could either root or snare kite adds if needed. Other classes could perform similar roles but you could also have a skilled puller that could avoid adds all together barring some great disaster. All of those things working in tandem made for plentiful options when grouping when it came to how to approach something.  It''s something that's been in murky waters over the last decade or so.

    I can honestly say that I never looked for a cc class when playing eq.  If you had a great puller (bard,  monk,  even sk or necro) you just pulled singles until the camp was broken then chain pulled.   As shaman slowing on incoming basically eliminated the need for cc on the accidental 2 pull.  Eq was more a game of pulling,  as opposed to ccing.

    • 28 posts
    November 6, 2017 3:23 PM PST

    Porygon said:

    I would love a combination of EQ and WoW.  Taunt aggro for x seconds, but also puts you atop the aggro table.

     

    From the description of our taunt iteration... it looks pretty good!

    its a very easy gameplay isn't it?

    no please not in this way taunt should be only a target lock for 3sec, just move you one position higher in aggro table.
    during the 3 seconds you have to increase your aggro asap. dd's have to learn their aggro management. and please no way for AoE taunts.

    • 25 posts
    November 8, 2017 4:32 AM PST

    I'm probably in the minority, but the only issue I ever had with how taunt worked in EQ was at low levels you couldn't taunt anything higher level than you. Which caused low level parties to always prefer knights for tanks. So Warriors had a harder time leveling. That and how often taunt would fail, even when the skill was maxed.

    But really neither of those is a big enough issue that I would be disappointed if they implemented the exact same taunt mechanism for Pantheon.