Forums » The Bard

Wild bard speculation after recent stream

    • 436 posts
    April 28, 2017 4:15 AM PDT

    No bard news yesterday (unless I missed it), not unexpected since the class is slotted for post release. Kilsin didn't even dis us like last time!

    It was fun watching Cohh FD split pull, Joppa buff/debuff, and Kils & Zynxs provide crowd control.  Amsai has often pointed out that it appears CC (and support) would be spread across all classes.  So the question arises - why bard?  Does a group centric game with clearly defined roles, spread / shared across many classes need a bard at all?  Is a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none worth the investment of dev time?

    My answer would be a resounding yes, as no other class LOOKS GOOD, while making the group look good.  Brad's previous work has always included unique roles for minstrels, time will tell if Pantheon follows suit.

    • 369 posts
    April 28, 2017 6:41 AM PDT

    I am sure they have something special up their sleeves for the Bard. I think thats also why they are doing the Bard post release. It's a class that, if done wrong, would be terrible, but if done right will be amazing. I think they want to get the game out there and the money flowing in from subs so they can become more secure in their future, then they will start the task of building the Bard correctly.

    I wouldn't be suprised if the Bard had a completely unique mechanic that will let them being better support than say a rogue for CC. I am betting on the Bard being one of the better implementations of the class in Pantheon.

    • 1019 posts
    April 28, 2017 12:05 PM PDT

    I don't think we're going to see a ton of classes with powerful Crowd Control, but I'm definitely not surprised that we have legitimate Crowd Control abilities on a class besides Enchanter or Bard.  I still think one of the priest classes will have some significant Crowd Control (probably Druid), but I don't think it's going to be a situation where any class can step into the Crowd Control role.  I'm sure the traditional bard would still fit nicely.

    • 369 posts
    April 28, 2017 12:24 PM PDT

    Shucklighter said:

    I don't think we're going to see a ton of classes with powerful Crowd Control, but I'm definitely not surprised that we have legitimate Crowd Control abilities on a class besides Enchanter or Bard.  I still think one of the priest classes will have some significant Crowd Control (probably Druid), but I don't think it's going to be a situation where any class can step into the Crowd Control role.  I'm sure the traditional bard would still fit nicely.

    In the stream the Wizard I believe was rooting, so yes i'm 100% positive CC will be on other classes for sure.

    • 2370 posts
    April 28, 2017 12:29 PM PDT

    Shucklighter said:

    I don't think we're going to see a ton of classes with powerful Crowd Control, but I'm definitely not surprised that we have legitimate Crowd Control abilities on a class besides Enchanter or Bard.  I still think one of the priest classes will have some significant Crowd Control (probably Druid), but I don't think it's going to be a situation where any class can step into the Crowd Control role.  I'm sure the traditional bard would still fit nicely.

    Agreed. If crowd control is too common, combat will quickly become too easy because more often than not, the mobs will just be standing around waiting to be hit. But it's good to have most classes have some sort of ability that can be reserved for emergencies. I expect Bard to be a viable crowd controller. But I think in a sense, a Bard's lack of uniqueness will be what makes it unique. Pretty much the true definition of "Support" - a bard can help fill in any gaps in the party. Aradune loves Bards so there will definitely be a pretty awesome bard class in Pantheon. But personally I don't expect to hear about it for a little while.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 28, 2017 12:31 PM PDT
    • 1019 posts
    April 28, 2017 1:29 PM PDT

    I'm not talking about roots and snares.  I'm talking about mezzes/sleeps.  Pretty much everyone had a root or a snare in EverQuest.  I understand that it's all CC, but I'm talking about completely taking a mob out of a fight.

    • 1963 posts
    April 28, 2017 1:36 PM PDT

    Yes as others have said we definitely still have room for Bard. As per usual, I still push more master support role than jack of all trades. Or maybe better wording is jack of all support. Always brings something to the table but not necessarily can do everything. Buffs, debuffs, pulling/kiting, CC, resource regeneration, out of combat utility and maybe a limited time (40 secs as an example) Iconic superbuff. DPS? meh, Tanking? NOPE, Healing? nope, not feeling it,


    This post was edited by Amsai at April 28, 2017 4:29 PM PDT
    • 1 posts
    April 29, 2017 10:24 AM PDT

    So I find it funny that no one has broght this up. I got to watch the stream later cuz I had to work when they where live but I noticed a few things about Aradune char. One he is wearing his iconic green bard color. Sec if you watch Cohh VoD. jusr after 37min 45 sec Aradune does an animation that looks just like the oldschool bard using a song with epic equiped where he raises them to his face and they stick right threw and he is playing a flute. Lastly at 47 min 50 sec when they are talking about group makeup and what classes they are, thet call Aradune a War/Wiz which to me sound alot like a bard. To me it sound alot like there holding off show caseing the class cuz there not done with it yet( animations and songs ), but it seams it is in the game in some way. Any thoughts about this?

     

     


    This post was edited by NovacainTV at April 29, 2017 10:25 AM PDT
    • 1963 posts
    April 29, 2017 10:43 AM PDT

    Well they want to have Bard in by Launch, but they just dont know if they will have the time/budget. That being said the fairly recent class/race chart and the accompanying info gave a lot of previously unknown Bard info. Some of which implies that they are at the very least keeping Bard in mind as to how it will work in the game and how it will interact with other classes. They might even already have a basic class design for it.

    • 677 posts
    April 30, 2017 10:34 PM PDT

    Few things of note...

    I would bet money that a lot of classes will have root which is the most basic form of crowd control there is. But in games such as EQ and VG root wasn't the greatest form of CC once you're in a full group and crap starts hitting the fan. So while a lot of classes might possibly have some form of CC like root it will most likely be very basic CC spells and probably for things like solo'n purposes or for last resort situations. There will still be the definitive CC classes that will be distinct from the others and hands down the better choice.

    Few reasons why I believe the bard will not make launch. Which I guess I'd be fine with I suppose lol. First, it gives the team time to really make the class shine. Once they release the core game they can really sit down and brainstorm what it is to be a bard in Pantheon. Given the extra time to create this amazing class will also help boost the expansion pack it is releaed in, will be a great selling point for it. The original 12 classes will set the standard for the core classes and what they represent. These Xpac classes have the opportunity to bring something wholly unique to the classes of PRF. They plan on bringing in the Necromancer down the road at some point which is another class they can really make shine if they put their minds to it. Personally, I'd love to see them take a bunch of the blood mage's abilities and incorporate them into the Necro. THAT would be friggin awesome, a healer of the dark arts who uses blood magic and summons the dead. I feel like they can really run wild with these Xpac classes. Nothing OP but just truely unique play styles that haven't been done either at all or too often.

    Finally, the last reason I think they may be taking their time with the bard is because of the VG Bard and the disaster of the song book's coding. At least this is what numerous ppl said about it. Many the butt of jokes and countless spaghetti references were made of it. Best if they don't travel down the road again.

    • 19 posts
    April 30, 2017 11:15 PM PDT

    NoobieDoo said:

    Finally, the last reason I think they may be taking their time with the bard is because of the VG Bard and the disaster of the song book's coding.

     

    But the bard was so powerful in VG. I can not imagine how they would implement a bard after launch due to tweaking all the classes. I don’t understand anything from coding, but isn’t the bard necessary for balancing, if he will have powerful songs like in VG?


    This post was edited by Zazazuu at May 1, 2017 6:41 AM PDT
    • 1963 posts
    May 1, 2017 9:27 AM PDT

    You can design with something like Bard in mind though. Its true that it isnt as effective as balancing with Bard actually in game. But they should be able to tweak it if they use other classes buffs and debuffs to keep in mind Bard. Plenty of MMOs have come out with new classes, and they ended up being just fine, so Im sure Pantheon can pull it off.

     

    @Noobie

    I like the angle for helping sell expansions, but I hope your wrong. I was under the impression that when they said Bard would be released shortly after release if it didnt make launch that it implied 3...... maybe 6 months. Ill be a bit crushed if I have to wait a year to a year and a half for a new expansion just to finally play it lol.

    • 2370 posts
    May 1, 2017 9:34 AM PDT

    Amsai said:

    You can design with something like Bard in mind though. Its true that it isnt as effective as balancing with Bard actually in game. But they should be able to tweak it if they use other classes buffs and debuffs to keep in mind Bard. Plenty of MMOs have come out with new classes, and they ended up being just fine, so Im sure Pantheon can pull it off.

    Agreed. I often see people using this argument, but I think it's just because people are so used to bards being powerful. It doesn't have to be that way though. Just because that's how it was in EQ and VG doesn't mean that's how it will be in Pantheon. Since they already know there will be a bard eventually, they can just use a little basic forward thinking to plan around it and make sure it fits nicely whenever it does happen. Bards are only imbalanced if they're designed as an afterthought.

    • 102 posts
    May 1, 2017 6:16 PM PDT

    I'm hoping with recent news that the game is 100% funded now that Bard is GOING to happen for launch. I hope.

    • 677 posts
    May 1, 2017 10:10 PM PDT

    Zazazuu said:

    NoobieDoo said:

    Finally, the last reason I think they may be taking their time with the bard is because of the VG Bard and the disaster of the song book's coding.

     

    But the bard was so powerful in VG. I can not imagine how they would implement a bard after launch due to tweaking all the classes. I don’t understand anything from coding, but isn’t the bard necessary for balancing, if he will have powerful songs like in VG?

    The Bard has been a part of the game it's entire development (in their minds), it's just not known when they can actually sit down and design it. Like some have stated all they have to do is do some forward thinking and they can easily future proof balancing issues for a late Bard launch. Also, many believe (know) that Brad has an affinity towards Bards and with his involvement with EQ and VG I'm sure he has a good sense of how the Bard will fit into Pantheon which should help them do any necessary forward thinking when it comes time.

    I don't know if the coding thing was true. I did hear it from a few different sources though but whatever. All I know is that once they raised the level cap from 50 to 55 everybody got new shiny spells but Bard's didn't get any new song components. What we got was 3 new abilities/spells outside of the song book. It's possible with them rushing to launch VG that they had to cram that coding in for the bard and why they may be wanting to take their time this time around. /shrugs

    • 677 posts
    May 1, 2017 10:16 PM PDT

    Amsai said:

    @Noobie

    I like the angle for helping sell expansions, but I hope your wrong. I was under the impression that when they said Bard would be released shortly after release if it didnt make launch that it implied 3...... maybe 6 months. Ill be a bit crushed if I have to wait a year to a year and a half for a new expansion just to finally play it lol.

    I do too bro lol. But I'm thinking 6 months is extremely wishful thinking. I look at it like this (and I'm sorry if I'm being the destroyer of bard dreams) the first 3-6 months after release they will not be designing much new content. I think they will be focusing on the launch with fixing bugs and maintaining the servers. Handling populations and just hunkering down and making sure the core game is stable before they start bringing in any new content. It's a small team so it's not like they can break a group off to focus on designing new content while the other group handles the bug fixing and maintenance.

    But trust me lol I hope I'm very wrong too. I'll say this, I hope they can get the bard in before launch. Because if they don't I don't see them working much on new content within those first 3-6 months. :(

    • 677 posts
    May 1, 2017 10:40 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Amsai said:

    You can design with something like Bard in mind though. Its true that it isnt as effective as balancing with Bard actually in game. But they should be able to tweak it if they use other classes buffs and debuffs to keep in mind Bard. Plenty of MMOs have come out with new classes, and they ended up being just fine, so Im sure Pantheon can pull it off.

    Agreed. I often see people using this argument, but I think it's just because people are so used to bards being powerful. It doesn't have to be that way though. Just because that's how it was in EQ and VG doesn't mean that's how it will be in Pantheon. Since they already know there will be a bard eventually, they can just use a little basic forward thinking to plan around it and make sure it fits nicely whenever it does happen. Bards are only imbalanced if they're designed as an afterthought.

    Not sure if I agree with this. I agree that the team has known they want Bards in the game since the beginning of development so they can easily forward think and create a nice pocket for Bards down the road. But I think they could get away without any forawrd thinking and not create any balance issues if they designed the Bard from scratch after the game launched.

    If you think about it, Bards don't really have any unique features specifically to their class. Pretty much everything they can do is found on other classes. The most unique thing they bring is their style of buffing but those are mostly just smaller versions of other classes buffs. And obviously this is explaining the bard in a very raw and simple/basic way. For CC you give them a restricted version of the Enchanters CC repertoire. For pulling you couple that CC with lull and runspeed. Bards have the least restrictions when it comes to buffing others so you take the other classes buffs, use them in a combat setting, tweak the encounter by adding to each of those buffs just enough to make a difference but not to simply destroy everything and that's what you give the Bard for their buffs. A basic example would be a group with a cleric has a HP buff of a 1000 are fighting a challenging monster, how much more of an HP buff could we give that group to make them feel considerably stronger but not trivialize the monster. This difference would be what the Bard gets for their HP song buff.

    I could be very wrong and yes completely starting from scratch after launch could be a disaster. I just feel like from EQ and VG Bards have played a similar role which allows their design the possibility to come later because they sort of bring all the classes together in a sense.

    • 677 posts
    May 1, 2017 10:52 PM PDT

    Dhampir said:

    I'm hoping with recent news that the game is 100% funded now that Bard is GOING to happen for launch. I hope.

    Just to clear up any misunderstanding I'm pretty sure the game is not 100% funded yet. They have received funds that completes their first stage of funding which helps to get a lot of things rolling but if I'm correct they still need to find more funding elsewhere to help grow the world for sure but also to possibly finish the game in a timely manner. If I'm correct and if they for some reason received absolutely zero money from this point on then they would possibly not finish the game in their intended time frame.

    I tried reading up what series A funding meant when they stated they completed their series A funding and there are a couple of stages that tend to go with startup companies and new IPs. So take this with a grain of salt because I could be wrong. I could have misunderstood them and possibly they are fully funded, but I honestly don't think they are. Or I could have even not correctly understood the literature I was reading on series A, B, C funding. Either way I hope this helps. Even if they aren't fully funded yet I believe that completing their series A will help them get to a place where they have a lot of the game finished which should easily help them find more funding. :D

    • 436 posts
    May 2, 2017 3:57 AM PDT

    NoobieDoo said => (and I'm sorry if I'm being the destroyer of bard dreams)

    Whoa, hold on there friend, Dream Crushing is Kilsin's job! (*grins*)

    Though I suspect you are correct.  I will switch to a bard main whenever they are released, but hope, like Amsai, that the wait is as short as possible.  Happy to volunteer time post-launch on a Test Server with Convo working on the bard class.

    • 2370 posts
    May 2, 2017 5:56 AM PDT

    NoobieDoo said:

    Bazgrim said:

    Amsai said:

    You can design with something like Bard in mind though. Its true that it isnt as effective as balancing with Bard actually in game. But they should be able to tweak it if they use other classes buffs and debuffs to keep in mind Bard. Plenty of MMOs have come out with new classes, and they ended up being just fine, so Im sure Pantheon can pull it off.

    Agreed. I often see people using this argument, but I think it's just because people are so used to bards being powerful. It doesn't have to be that way though. Just because that's how it was in EQ and VG doesn't mean that's how it will be in Pantheon. Since they already know there will be a bard eventually, they can just use a little basic forward thinking to plan around it and make sure it fits nicely whenever it does happen. Bards are only imbalanced if they're designed as an afterthought.

    Not sure if I agree with this. I agree that the team has known they want Bards in the game since the beginning of development so they can easily forward think and create a nice pocket for Bards down the road. But I think they could get away without any forawrd thinking and not create any balance issues if they designed the Bard from scratch after the game launched.

    If you think about it, Bards don't really have any unique features specifically to their class. Pretty much everything they can do is found on other classes. The most unique thing they bring is their style of buffing but those are mostly just smaller versions of other classes buffs. And obviously this is explaining the bard in a very raw and simple/basic way. For CC you give them a restricted version of the Enchanters CC repertoire. For pulling you couple that CC with lull and runspeed. Bards have the least restrictions when it comes to buffing others so you take the other classes buffs, use them in a combat setting, tweak the encounter by adding to each of those buffs just enough to make a difference but not to simply destroy everything and that's what you give the Bard for their buffs. A basic example would be a group with a cleric has a HP buff of a 1000 are fighting a challenging monster, how much more of an HP buff could we give that group to make them feel considerably stronger but not trivialize the monster. This difference would be what the Bard gets for their HP song buff.

    I could be very wrong and yes completely starting from scratch after launch could be a disaster. I just feel like from EQ and VG Bards have played a similar role which allows their design the possibility to come later because they sort of bring all the classes together in a sense.

    I agree. I think those are actually two different points. And it actually reinforcements my point that Bards don't HAVE to be overpowered. That's not a requirement lol. Bards are only OP in other games cause they were just poorly designed. Yes, they're only overpowered if you don't plan ahead. But that doesn't necessarily mean you have to plan ahead at all! Although it probably wouldn't hurt haha. It would make it easier in most cases. Yes, most if not all bard abilities can be found on other classes, but they key is to make sure they don't have access to so many abilities that it makes other classes obsolete. They can't be so good at everything that they don't need anyone else. But if you're any kind of a smart designer, you can definitely figure out how to make that possible.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at May 2, 2017 5:59 AM PDT
    • 1963 posts
    May 2, 2017 8:06 AM PDT

    Kumu said:

    NoobieDoo said => (and I'm sorry if I'm being the destroyer of bard dreams)

    Whoa, hold on there friend, Dream Crushing is Kilsin's job! (*grins*)

    Though I suspect you are correct.  I will switch to a bard main whenever they are released, but hope, like Amsai, that the wait is as short as possible.  Happy to volunteer time post-launch on a Test Server with Convo working on the bard class.

     

    Definitely Kumu! Dream Crushing is Kilsin's job!

     

    But on a serious note: Yes happy to help with Bard in whatever way I can, If possible.

    • 140 posts
    August 6, 2017 12:26 PM PDT

    The problems I see with adding Bard post-launch is the meta.

    What I mean by this is that the game right now seems to have four "roles": Tank/healer/dps/control *enemies

    What this means is that if the Bard isn't added at launch, "Support" won't be a supported (no pun intended) role in the game.  As such, post-launch Bards, unless VR is willing to add a role on the fly (which I would be cool with but most game devs would shy away from - for example, FF14 and WoW devs have both talked in the past about adding a dedicated Support role, but never managed to fit it into their games to date because the game design never supported it as a stand alone role, even though in Vanilla WoW it kind of was [Paladins/Shaman]), wouldn't work very well.  A post-launch Bard would just be a Rogue with less damage and some Enchanter abilities reworked as "songs" instead of "spells".  It would have the common root/snare CC that every class has, and then it would have weaker or altered versions of Enchanter Control abilities, possibly with different mechanics/durations (AOE vs single target, multiple copies of a "song" up whereas only one copy of the Enchanter "spell" can be in effect at a time, etc).

    This would make a Bard a Rogue/Enchanter hybrid dps/control, not a support specialist.  Adding in a healing song would make it a "jack of all trades", which would make it useless in groups (can do everything decently means not being able to do anything masterfully, which means not having a place in a class interdependency based group).

    .

    On the other hand, a pre-launch Bard changes things up considerably.

    For starters, there are now five dedicated "roles": Tank/Heals/DPS/Control/Support

    ...and the game can now be BUILT around these.  There is an archetype of each role - Tank=Warrior, Heal=Cleric, DPS=Wizard/Rogue, Control=Enchanter, Support=Bard.

    ...but, the thing is, while there is an archetype of each role, there are "hybrids" within the roles - a Crusader being a Tank with some healy abilities, a Shaman being a Heal/Control or possibly Heal/Support, and so on.  As such, a Bard might be better at Support than an Enchanter, but a Bard would also have Control abilities built in, and an Enchatner would likely have Support abilities built in.  So a Bard could sub in for an Enchanter or an Enchante sub in for a Bard, and maybe a Ranger or Druid or Shaman could sub in for a Bard in the Support role if a Bard wasn't available, just as a Wizard or Summoner might be able to sub in for the Control role if an Enchanter isn't available.

    This is because the roles existing at launch determing both the archetype of the role (iconic at the role) and the pool of abilities available to all the classe that lets other classes "sub in" for a role that is their secondary speciality - e.g. maybe a Wizard is primary DPS, but has a number of Control abilities they can use if an Enchanter or other CC class isn't available.

    .

    This may seem more esoteric of a discussion, but it's the reason I think the Bard class needs to make launch and the role system expanded to the full slate of five roles for launch.

    Because if it's not, and Bard is released after launch, and post-launch the devs don't want to add a fifth role (as it will mess with existing content and the overall class meta): The the Bard released at that time won't be a master Support class with subspecialization in Control.  It will be a Control or a DPS class that just has some differently named Enchanter abilities and maybe an AOE HoT and movement speed buff.

    ...while some people might be fine with that, that isn't what I think of a Bard as.  -shrug-

    • 1963 posts
    August 11, 2017 11:29 AM PDT
    I think it will be fine. That worry has more to do with philosophy of how VR sees Bard's role. Im more in favor of a dedicsted dedicated major non healer support. But they may want more of a jack of all trades. Which could still work I guess if they make it where Bards buffs stack with other buffs where In most cases that didnt work with other classes. But I cant say I wouldnt be slightly disappointed.

    I think Bard could fit in nicely with Enchanter. Where Enchanter could buff/debuff with major CC. They could make Bards opposite. And Healers could still be king of defensive buffs.
    • 830 posts
    September 23, 2017 6:22 PM PDT

    (Facetious, on)

    Sycophancy and bards.

    I think bards should be poor- almost incapable- solo classes and be absolutely dependent on at least being with another person. To the point where they are forced to RP a little in a sycophantic way. I am thinking of monty python and the holy grail and the the bard Sir Robin had with him. Working SO hard with the one to impress them in the hopes they will be remembered and invited again.

    keeping the chatter going, being silent when appropriate, bringing snacks as well as- essentially being the "social", in the social group and not annoying anyone, oh the fragile line. Cracking jokes , etc. Maybe the epic can be a jesters cap or something.

    muahahahaha

    (Bravely bold sir robin, brought forth from camelot, he was not afraid to die, oh brave sir robin, he was not in the leats bit sczred to be killed in nasty ways, and his limns all hacked and mangled,m brave sir robin. He was not in the leats bit scared to be mashed into a pulp, or to have his eyes gouged out, and his elbows broken,m to have his knee caps split and his body burned away...."

    Brave sir robin ran away, bravely ran away, away. When danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled...)

    • 436 posts
    September 24, 2017 4:45 AM PDT

    [fun fact: facetious is one of the very few words in English that has all five vowels in alphabetical order, making it a bard favorite]

    So bards should be making their groups look good by banging together coconut halves until the devs release mounts!

    Then again, if we are basing Pantheon troubadours on Monty Python, might I suggest Ogres consider an abstemious diet. Since "In the frozen land of Nador, they were forced to eat Robin’s minstrels…and there was much rejoicing" does not bode well for us (sycophants or not...).


    This post was edited by Kumu at September 24, 2017 11:47 AM PDT