Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Crafting vrs. PVE leveling

    • 6 posts
    April 18, 2017 7:14 PM PDT

    Will I have to be a high level adventurer to be a high level crafter?

    I ask this as Pantheon is built from the ground up to be more group orentated (PVE wise) so how are people that like to do some stuff on there own time going to be able to harvest and craft things inbetween their group adventures?

    When I level my crafting, will it be so tightly integrated that if you are not a high level adventurer, you will not be able to get past certain points in crafting?

    I dont think that I want my crafting to be completely seperate (XP) like in VG, but as I level my crafting, so should my PVE XP go up. As a matter of fact, anything that is done in game should add to your total experance in some shape or form.

    • 28 posts
    April 19, 2017 6:27 AM PDT

    At this point there hasn't been a whole lot of information on this but based on the little bit of information in the News Letter it sounds like the crafting and adventure xp will be separate.  Also with the materials being in areas that make sense instead of just random all over I would image that will allow for lower level adventurers to be higher level crafters.

     

    Also consider there's nothing to stop you from being in a guild with higher level adv toons that go out and get components to give to the guild crafters.

    • 1618 posts
    April 19, 2017 8:02 AM PDT

    Or, you can buy the materials from other players. 

    Or stalk a group of adventurers that are headed to where your mats are and hope they don't wipe. 


    This post was edited by Beefcake at April 19, 2017 8:04 AM PDT
    • 1584 posts
    April 19, 2017 8:28 AM PDT

    I believe the skill cap of your tradeskilling should increase while you lvl, for one it makes it to where you lvl yout alts, i want to know if i am let say getting a mastercraft plate armor from someone that they my lvl "if im max lvl", i don't see how a lvl 1 char would have the chance to do anything mastercraft that just doesn't make any sense to me.  I know this might not be liked by some people, but think about it how could a lvl 1 char know how to make anything mastercraft, when you know whatever it is he is fighting usually is wearing no armor, and if he's a "hard hitting mobs" becuase he has a weapon it is going to be "rusty" or "broken", he shouldn't have any idea of what it means or to know that it is even possible to make "mastercraft."

    • 422 posts
    April 19, 2017 9:11 AM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    I believe the skill cap of your tradeskilling should increase while you lvl, for one it makes it to where you lvl yout alts, i want to know if i am let say getting a mastercraft plate armor from someone that they my lvl "if im max lvl", i don't see how a lvl 1 char would have the chance to do anything mastercraft that just doesn't make any sense to me.  I know this might not be liked by some people, but think about it how could a lvl 1 char know how to make anything mastercraft, when you know whatever it is he is fighting usually is wearing no armor, and if he's a "hard hitting mobs" becuase he has a weapon it is going to be "rusty" or "broken", he shouldn't have any idea of what it means or to know that it is even possible to make "mastercraft."

    How does combat experience and blacksmithing experience have anything to do with one another? I can go out and learn to fight, become and experienced martial artist, and become a master of combat. This doesn't just make me a blacksmith. As such blacksmithing can be learned by anyone no matter if they ever used the armor or weaponry they are making. The two are completely seperated. Neither goes hand in hand with the other, skill or experience wise.

    Adventuring xp and crafting skill should be seperate. One should not require the other and one should not increase the other. Crafting doesn't make you a better warrior, and knowing how to use a sword doesn't mean you could make one.

    • 1584 posts
    April 19, 2017 9:56 AM PDT

    kellindil said:

    Riahuf22 said:

    I believe the skill cap of your tradeskilling should increase while you lvl, for one it makes it to where you lvl yout alts, i want to know if i am let say getting a mastercraft plate armor from someone that they my lvl "if im max lvl", i don't see how a lvl 1 char would have the chance to do anything mastercraft that just doesn't make any sense to me.  I know this might not be liked by some people, but think about it how could a lvl 1 char know how to make anything mastercraft, when you know whatever it is he is fighting usually is wearing no armor, and if he's a "hard hitting mobs" becuase he has a weapon it is going to be "rusty" or "broken", he shouldn't have any idea of what it means or to know that it is even possible to make "mastercraft."

    How does combat experience and blacksmithing experience have anything to do with one another? I can go out and learn to fight, become and experienced martial artist, and become a master of combat. This doesn't just make me a blacksmith. As such blacksmithing can be learned by anyone no matter if they ever used the armor or weaponry they are making. The two are completely seperated. Neither goes hand in hand with the other, skill or experience wise.

    Adventuring xp and crafting skill should be seperate. One should not require the other and one should not increase the other. Crafting doesn't make you a better warrior, and knowing how to use a sword doesn't mean you could make one.

    Becuase is makes since and i said how, a lvl 1 char should be bad at everything at the beginning and tradeskills isn't an exception, if a lvl 1 char can't be a master at combat skills why should they be at tradeskills? for one tradeskills in the long run is way more rewarding if you use them properly.  So yes, your character level should justify how high your TS can go, for one becuase the more you "experience the world" and also VR is trying to implement "Immersive World" so this also supports what i am saying as well. Also it will decrease inflation for a period of time and make the ones who actually max out there TS can actually pat themselves on the back instead of seeing a lvl 1 alt of someones being able to do exactly what he is doing.

    • 338 posts
    April 19, 2017 10:00 AM PDT

    It also prevents people from having a stable of level 1 max everything tradeskillers.

     

    Overall something like this is a good idea imo although I feel there may be better ways to gate tradeskilling.

     

     

    Kiz~

    • 1584 posts
    April 19, 2017 10:06 AM PDT

    Angrykiz said:

    It also prevents people from having a stable of level 1 max everything tradeskillers.

     

    Overall something like this is a good idea imo although I feel there may be better ways to gate tradeskilling.

     

     

    Kiz~

    Yes your right, and i hope they use this along with any other idea to prevent inflation, i mean i know eventually it's going to happen its almost unavoidable for the hardcore tradeskillers to stop it and i'm not trying to stop them at all i would just like to see them lvl up their alts to do it, and if someone brings up the progeny system i say if you used it than that character can max tradeskills at lvl 1 for the mere fact that hit max level previously and can no longer use the character that the once maxxed out.

    • 1618 posts
    April 19, 2017 11:28 AM PDT

    There are many aspects to the game. The great thing about these games is that you get to choose which aspects you want to experience. 

    If you want to only adventure and do no crafting,  you can.

    If you want to only craft and do no adventuring, you can.

    You do not have to do both.

    I am quite confident VR will not force you to do both.

    • 1584 posts
    April 19, 2017 11:48 AM PDT

    Than i would simply make it to where some of the hard to find materias to make special combines should be no drop/trade so the higher lvl'd/max lvl'd charcter can still amke something the lvl 1 charcter can not it is really only fair.

    • 422 posts
    April 19, 2017 12:03 PM PDT

    @Riahuff22 I still don't get why you insist on combining the two progression trees. It does not make sense from a real world sense. The game is built to simulate how something is actually accomplished in the real world, approximately. Its not a 100% real world simulation but it at least follows logic. A Soldier in the U.S Military might become an infintry soldier and spend his entire career on patrols and escorting convoy. He gains a lot of combat experience. Another might become a mechanic and spend his entire time working on vehicles. He would earn a lot of mechinical experience, but potentially little combat experience. When they both started out, they both most likely knew how to change a tire or spark plug and they both knew how to shoot a gun, but from there they went down different progression paths.

    Apply that here. A person that has lived 18 years (we assume most PCs in game would be adults of 18 or older maybe) who live in a medievil like time period might all know how to shoot a bow, use a sword, or generally fight to some degree. They are not trained, but they have a general idea. Those same people, who would most likely have had to do a lot for themselves might know how to repair a farming implament like a shovel or a hoe. It doesn't take a lot of skill but it wont be the best quality. These two people are both lvl 1. They both have the same potential and base knowledge. At that point they would choose a progression path. The fellow who goes adventuring becomes a better adventurer and fighter, while the blaksmith becomes a better smith. They both return after the same amount of time gaining experience in their chosen paths. The adventurer still doesn't know how to make plate armor, but could still probably fix that garden hoe. The blacksmith could make fantastical plate armor, but still doesn't really know how to use a sword very well.

    It just doesn't make sense to force one to be dependant on another.

    As beefcake said, VR will most likely seperate the two progression paths. Just sharing an opinion on the notion of combining the two paths.

    • 422 posts
    April 19, 2017 12:04 PM PDT

    Riahuf22 said:

    Than i would simply make it to where some of the hard to find materias to make special combines should be no drop/trade so the higher lvl'd/max lvl'd charcter can still amke something the lvl 1 charcter can not it is really only fair.

    Of course, and that would make perfect sense to me as well.

    • 105 posts
    April 19, 2017 2:25 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    There are many aspects to the game. The great thing about these games is that you get to choose which aspects you want to experience. 

    If you want to only adventure and do no crafting,  you can.

    If you want to only craft and do no adventuring, you can.

    You do not have to do both.

    I am quite confident VR will not force you to do both.



    This is correct. You'll progress in each sphere separately, but nothing's stopping you from doing all of them together should you like to. If you're a completionist gamer like me, you'll be engaging in Perception, Adventuring, and Crafting equally ;)

    As a pure crafter, you may want Adventuring friends to get to specific crafting stations in dangerous areas for specific recipes. However, the bulk of the system should be enjoyable from your outpost or city of choice (provided you have the faction to craft there in peace...).

    • 105 posts
    April 19, 2017 2:45 PM PDT

    Kini said:

    Will I have to be a high level adventurer to be a high level crafter?

    I ask this as Pantheon is built from the ground up to be more group orentated (PVE wise) so how are people that like to do some stuff on there own time going to be able to harvest and craft things inbetween their group adventures?

    When I level my crafting, will it be so tightly integrated that if you are not a high level adventurer, you will not be able to get past certain points in crafting?


    - No, you won't have to be a high level Adventurer. You may want to make friends with some though for the more exotic combines, either for ease of access to rare materials or access to crafting stations in dangerous areas (such as in a dungeon). You will however have a path to reach max level purely on your own. More details to come, but for now that's the short answer.

    Kini said:

    I dont think that I want my crafting to be completely seperate (XP) like in VG, but as I level my crafting, so should my PVE XP go up. As a matter of fact, anything that is done in game should add to your total experance in some shape or form.


    - That's an interesting idea. I feel something like that would probably be a better fit for a game where you're not constrained to a class or profession, and are able to more freeform your avatar's progress.

    • 1468 posts
    April 19, 2017 5:14 PM PDT

    Ceythos said:

    Kini said:

    Will I have to be a high level adventurer to be a high level crafter?

    I ask this as Pantheon is built from the ground up to be more group orentated (PVE wise) so how are people that like to do some stuff on there own time going to be able to harvest and craft things inbetween their group adventures?

    When I level my crafting, will it be so tightly integrated that if you are not a high level adventurer, you will not be able to get past certain points in crafting?


    - No, you won't have to be a high level Adventurer. You may want to make friends with some though for the more exotic combines, either for ease of access to rare materials or access to crafting stations in dangerous areas (such as in a dungeon). You will however have a path to reach max level purely on your own. More details to come, but for now that's the short answer.

    Kini said:

    I dont think that I want my crafting to be completely seperate (XP) like in VG, but as I level my crafting, so should my PVE XP go up. As a matter of fact, anything that is done in game should add to your total experance in some shape or form.


    - That's an interesting idea. I feel something like that would probably be a better fit for a game where you're not constrained to a class or profession, and are able to more freeform your avatar's progress.

    I'm excited to hear that you will be able to reach max crafting level on your own without needing other players to help you. That should mean that crafters can concentrate on their craft and then when they need to make a rare item they can ask people who enjoy killing to collect materials for them (for a price of course) so they can make their best items.

    I posted in a thread in this forum not so long ago talking about the same thing and I said that it would be good if crafters could level up on trash items and only when they need to make special player items would they require items from people who enjoy killing. That way crafters can spend time learning their craft and will still need to work with other people in order to make the best items that they can.

    • 13 posts
    February 14, 2018 3:37 PM PST

    if Crafting lvls are going to be seperate from PvE XP lvls they should also have a simular degree of difficulty.  You shouldn't be able craft to Max Lvl in a day or even 2 days.  Maybe even some quest/test to proceed from novice (low lvl) to crafter (mid lvl) then from crafter to master crafter (upper lvls) and a maybe even a EPIC like quest/test to get to the covetted Grandmaster lvls.


    This post was edited by Kweglar at February 14, 2018 3:38 PM PST
    • 16 posts
    February 15, 2018 12:48 PM PST

    Kweglar said:

    if Crafting lvls are going to be seperate from PvE XP lvls they should also have a simular degree of difficulty.  You shouldn't be able craft to Max Lvl in a day or even 2 days.  Maybe even some quest/test to proceed from novice (low lvl) to crafter (mid lvl) then from crafter to master crafter (upper lvls) and a maybe even a EPIC like quest/test to get to the covetted Grandmaster lvls.

     

    If it's at all reminiscent of VG, that's definitely not something you'll have to worry about. Heh. It was a long, time consuming process to keep ahead of the leveling curve as a crafter. If Visionary Realms is going to go through the effort of making the Crafting sphere separate and distinct you can bet it'll be just as much of a process to level it as it would be if it were Adventuring levels.

    • 1785 posts
    February 15, 2018 4:01 PM PST

    So, my thoughts (which I am regurgitating from other threads where we've touched on this subject):

    From  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7610/complexity-when-crafting

    So, what I would propose instead is this:
     
    - Novice crafters have a few, simple recipes that they can make.  These recipes are light on complexity and material requirements in order to help crafters get started.  However, they produce useful things that other players need, especially new adventurers, but even advanced adventures.  Example below.
    - Novice crafters can also choose to advance via work orders, at a noticeably (but not cripplingly) slower pace than they would through making finished items.  This provides an alternative progression path if economic conditions are unfavorable or if materials are simply unavailable.  Work orders may also provide different incentives, like faction gains or by leading to recipe unlocks, such that every crafter should *at least* view them as a secondary activity
    - As crafters progress, the complexity of the crafting process demanded by the recipes they're unlocking increases.  More stringent material requirements, subcomponent requirements, quality variations, and so on should all play a role.  Early on, the impact of that stuff should be minimized to keep a level playing field for new crafters - but, as skill increases, there should be more emphasis on this to provide additional areas for crafters to compete with each other.

    And then, I also had some thoughts here:  https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/7497/player-driven-crafting-board

    So to sum it up:  What Neph would do is make advancement tied to the variety of items you make rather than the quantity of them, make NPC turn ins far more meaningful and unique than just a repeatable grind button, insure that there's tons of item diversity within each "tier" of items so that new crafters can find a niche and have a chance to compete, and finally, insure that crafters can compete on location as well as on selection and price.  Doing this makes for a stronger, healthier crafting game, and an overall healthier economy.

    Definitely recommend ya'll check out those threads (and others) if you haven't already :)

    • 10 posts
    February 23, 2018 9:16 PM PST

    I think you should be fine.  I remember being a lower level crafter in EQ2 and going into high level areas to harvest nodes for resources.  I had an item that turned me into a rock or something so I could hide from monsters that got too close.  

    I also remember doing the same thing in Vanguard.  I only got up to level 30 or so adventure wise in vanguard, but I max leveled my crafting and my diplomacy because I was having more fun doing those.  I used to follow a group of high level players as they'd clear a cave or something, and I asked them if it was alright if I mined the ore in the cave as they killed the monsters that lived there and they were cool with it.   Also harvested trees and plants etc in their wake through outdoor areas.  You could go and harvest without needing someone to clear the area but it made it easier.  

    I'm sure there will be high end crafting components you will only be able to get by doing high end game content, so I think everyone will be happy.  The ones that want a level 1 with level 50 crafting, and the guys that want you to have to be level 50 adventurer to get the level 50 crafting rares.  

    • 9 posts
    April 28, 2018 9:12 AM PDT

    I would like to see a system where if I only want to craft with one of my people I don't have to hunt to get resources maybe I have to sneak into an area or find the back door to get to my resources or bribe an NPC to keep the mobs off me while I gather. Just because someday i just don't want to kill i want to create    

    • 31 posts
    April 30, 2018 7:05 AM PDT

    I think I would like to see harvestable nodes placed away from intended hunting areas (or dungeons). I hate having group members break away from combat to go harvest/gather something (or worse, fighting over gathering).

    • 35 posts
    April 30, 2018 12:34 PM PDT

    AggaSilverscale said:

    I think I would like to see harvestable nodes placed away from intended hunting areas (or dungeons). I hate having group members break away from combat to go harvest/gather something (or worse, fighting over gathering).

     

    but wouldn't you expect to see certain nodes in your adventure areas? if you're clearing a cave, you'd expect to see ore wouldn't you?

     

    I don't disagree that having people run off mid fight to farm a node is lame, but that's something you should probably handle within the group itself instead of completely just removing nodes from the area. at least imo.

    • 35 posts
    April 30, 2018 12:49 PM PDT

    I personally don't like the idea of linking adventure xp and crafting xp together. As kellindil was saying, they are unrelated and linking them together wouldn't make sense. I love to adventure and I love to craft, but I dont want to see the xp linked. They are two very different activities and I don't want to lose out on experiencing either one just to make it more convenient if others don't want to, or even can't spend time doing both. I'd take no issue with work orders that could be filled while out adventuring that would give me some xp in my craft, but only to a point. I don't really want to get xp in smithing because I collected 10 ore for an NPC. Maybe give me some bonus xp in mining upon turning in the ore, but not smithing xp. Of course, if I collected extra ore because I also had an order for 10 short swords I could potentially get a little bonus xp in both mining and smithing by turning in both work orders for ore & the crafted swords.

     

    I don't want it to be impossible to level my character and my crafting unless I'm spending 8 hours a day in game, but I also don't want it to be something I just have given to me when I truly didn't dedicate time to it. I'm not 18-25 any longer and I won't be able to play Pantheon as much as I played EQ for example, but I'm not willing to sacrifice the truly enjoyable experience in Pantheon that I am expecting. I've waited far too long for a game to excite me the way EQ did in the early years to sabotage it for a few conveniences.

    Just my thoughts.