Forums » The Paladin

Elves can't be Paladins?

    • 26 posts
    April 6, 2017 1:17 AM PDT

    In EQ Elves can be Paladins. In fact they were the poster Paladins for the game. How can you make a game that's honoring old EQ and not have Elves be able to role as Paladins? Paladins are severely limited in their race choices currently. Please don't let this be an unpopular class like it was in EQ.


    This post was edited by Draulius at April 6, 2017 4:35 AM PDT
    • 26 posts
    April 6, 2017 1:20 AM PDT

    Also I guess this would mean they could be Clerics too. Am I missing something in the lore here? Any GOOD (not neutral) aligned race should be able to play Paladin.

    • 77 posts
    April 6, 2017 3:30 AM PDT

    In my view, elves are frail, subtle beings, with an aversion for brute force and bloodbath. So it doesn't surprise me them not being able to perform melee classes based on brute force like paladins. Same goes for warrior or whatever melee class based on strengh.

     

    Cheers

    • 26 posts
    April 6, 2017 4:28 AM PDT

    Gideon said:

    In my view, elves are frail, subtle beings, with an aversion for brute force and bloodbath. So it doesn't surprise me them not being able to perform melee classes based on brute force like paladins. Same goes for warrior or whatever melee class based on strengh.

     

    Cheers

    You don't need to be very strong to use a blade more effectively. In fact Elves can use their speed and agility when fighting with weapons, which is just as effective if not more effective than raw strength alone. Realistically speaking anyway.

    Paladins avoid bloodshed whenever possible, but resort to it (usually regretfully) when they have no other choice or when some form of evil must be purged. They also use magic which Elves are often good at.


    This post was edited by Draulius at April 6, 2017 5:21 AM PDT
    • 184 posts
    April 6, 2017 6:15 AM PDT

    There is already a post on this topic. ;)

     

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5347/paladin-race-class-picture

    • 3210 posts
    April 6, 2017 7:41 AM PDT

    In short, yes, you are missing something from the lore lol. Forget what you know about EQ for a moment and look deeper into the original lore of Pantheon...

    From the Loremaster himself:

    "Another hot button issue was that of the lack of a Cleric or Paladin class available to our Elves. While the superficial answer of “think of them as wood elves, not high elves” makes sense to most veteran gamers, there is a deeper lore meaning behind that rationale. Justin explained that the races that were prone to produce Clerics and Paladins were ones that were deeply connected to their deities, and that relationship was one that was central to their daily lives. The Elves are a bit different in that regard.

    “While their pantheon is important to the Elves, their response to several tragic and divisive historical moments has superseded the way they see themselves. To a degree Elves have become more ideological than religious. While some races are separated into different factions based on which deity they worship, Elves are split between two extremes (Ashen and Ember) and the nominal middle called Lucent. Those division represent the way they think is best to protect and prosper their people. Is it interwoven with their worship? Yes. But faith isn’t the first-thought focus of their life. It’s fair to ask if that is an imbalance for them”

    It is also important to note that many of the lore based decisions on which race can be which class are also dictated to some degree by overall game representations and balance, and more importantly that just because something is currently so, doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t change in the future. Elves are a good example here, as while they currently don’t produce the pious classes, they may, through future events or interactions, develop a sect that takes up that mantle.

    We will have to keep a close watch on the lore to see what might develop in the future."

    Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/2017_march_loremaster/

    There was also a lot of discussion about it here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at April 6, 2017 7:46 AM PDT
    • 532 posts
    April 6, 2017 8:42 PM PDT

    Thanks Bazgrim, I was looking for that post :D


    This post was edited by Dreconic at April 6, 2017 8:45 PM PDT
    • 3210 posts
    April 7, 2017 2:28 AM PDT

    Dreconic said:

    Thanks Bazgrim, I was looking for that post :D

    My pleasure!

    • 457 posts
    April 17, 2017 3:45 PM PDT

    My Dwarven Paladin scoffs at the notion of a high-elf paladin! Muhahahahaha!!

    • 87 posts
    April 23, 2017 6:36 PM PDT

    Sounds good on lore paper and all... can we write in there just a little snippit or something nice about those elf paladins about how there was an ancient sect of pure and devourt line of elven people (elves) eradicating and riding evil from off the face of Terminus an elven race learned in the paths of chaotic good paladins or whatever were kept in tact through the ages or at very least about the only last suriving High-elf Paladin named Leowna in the world of Terminus? That would be fine I guess! The dwarfs have conspired aginst us I just know it! Dwarf if you stood but just a little higher I could alleviate this problem! Probably in league with those filthy mouth breathing Dire Lords that has already courrupted four races aready! So much evil to conquer already!

    • 1644 posts
    April 23, 2017 6:41 PM PDT

    Hey! Dwarves may be short conspirators, but dont let their mud taint the honorable heritage of Dire Lords.

    • 19 posts
    November 21, 2017 1:30 PM PST

    I was very disapointed to hear this. Loved roleplaying as a race that was more in tune with the magical side. The whole point of having elven paladins was that they are able to utilize their mass amounts of magic prowess to allow them just as much effectiveness in combat as their human or dwarven counterparts. Hope they change this restriction in the alpha.


    This post was edited by card at November 21, 2017 1:32 PM PST
    • 103 posts
    November 21, 2017 10:26 PM PST

    If I were to play a Paladin I would likely only do so as an Elf, as I  do not like playing either Humans or Dwarves. I understand it from a lore point of view - as Elves in Pantheon is to be considered more like Wood Elves than High Elves. Personally I think this makes them to similar to Halflings in Pantheon, but I guess that's a different discussion. Bottomline is, I think Terminus could do with another "advanced society" race, seeing as the majority is more tribal or primal in design.

    Especially if it would mean Elven Paladins.

    • 19 posts
    November 22, 2017 12:05 AM PST

    Menubrea said:

    If I were to play a Paladin I would likely only do so as an Elf, as I  do not like playing either Humans or Dwarves. I understand it from a lore point of view - as Elves in Pantheon is to be considered more like Wood Elves than High Elves. Personally I think this makes them to similar to Halflings in Pantheon, but I guess that's a different discussion. Bottomline is, I think Terminus could do with another "advanced society" race, seeing as the majority is more tribal or primal in design.

    Especially if it would mean Elven Paladins.

    Well put about the tribal nature of most races in this universe. And whos to say all elves are a specific way?

    • 61 posts
    December 5, 2017 8:55 PM PST

    Bring on the Halfling and Elf Paladins! More variety!!!!

    • 184 posts
    December 14, 2017 6:47 AM PST

    I still don't agree with the "lore excuse". Its poor game balance to put it mildly. It is the only class that suffers such a low number of playable races.

    • 19 posts
    December 23, 2017 2:14 PM PST

    I'm still blown away by the lack of race choice for Paladins thats happening in this game. Elves need to happen just because of the difference in role playing style to this role playing game.

    • 457 posts
    February 14, 2018 3:34 PM PST

    Okay, I understand that folks have brought EQ1 expectations to PROTF. Elves, in this game. are not (according to the lore) right for the paladin class. This is not EQ1 remade. It's an entire new game and world. However, if you can convince the devs before beta that elves should be allowed to be paladins and/or clerics, more power to ya!

    • 67 posts
    February 22, 2018 8:42 AM PST

    Reposting this in this thread for greater visibility.

    So I've seen people use this excerpt from the March 2017 newsletter to disprove Elf Paladins.

    Another hot button issue was that of the lack of a Cleric or Paladin class available to our Elves. While the superficial answer of “think of them as wood elves, not high elves” makes sense to most veteran gamers, there is a deeper lore meaning behind that rationale. Justin explained that the races that were prone to produce Clerics and Paladins were ones that were deeply connected to their deities, and that relationship was one that was central to their daily lives. The Elves are a bit different in that regard.

    “While their pantheon is important to the Elves, their response to several tragic and divisive historical moments has superseded the way they see themselves. To a degree Elves have become more ideological than religious. While some races are separated into different factions based on which deity they worship, Elves are split between two extremes (Ashen and Ember) and the nominal middle called Lucent. Those division represent the way they think is best to protect and prosper their people. Is it interwoven with their worship? Yes. But faith isn’t the first-thought focus of their life. It’s fair to ask if that is an imbalance for them”

    It is also important to note that many of the lore based decisions on which race can be which class are also dictated to some degree by overall game representations and balance, and more importantly that just because something is currently so, doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t change in the future. Elves are a good example here, as while they currently don’t produce the pious classes, they may, through future events or interactions, develop a sect that takes up that mantle.

    This, in my opinion, is a mistake. This excerpt, instead, should be used to prove why Elves should be Paladins. Here's what we know about Paladins.

    Once a Cleric, the Paladin has a call transcending the customs of the Cleric Order. Led by her convictions, she sets off to carry out her own righteous judgment.

    You getting what I'm talking about? Clerics are an artifact of the Elven past. Before they came to Terminus, they were a quite pious race, getting gifts directly from their gods Aellos and Dythiir. So they had a previous Clerical tradition. Both the Ashen and the Ember are obsessed with the Elven past for similar reasons, with drastically different interpretations. This makes them natural practitioners of Shamanism due to their focus on their ancestry. Who's to say that this enormous cultural gulf between them did not have a response? The Elves do not put their Gods in the forefront of their minds, true, but neither do Paladins. Paladins are driven by their personal call, their mission, and pursue it with a zeal that allow them to access Clerical magic despite no longer placing their God as their highest priority.

    The Lucent Elves are caught between these idealogical extremes, and what little we know about them speaks to me by describing moderates that simply care less for the question. Why can there be no extremist Lucent Elves? Some of those Lucent Elves, back when there was still Elf Clerics, took on the mission to keep their fractured race together despite their differences. The strongest and most influential Lucent Elves that act as a balancing force between the Ashen and Ember. Those Elves, former Clerics of the Elven Pantheon, abandoned those strictures in service to this goal, and this order of Elven Paladins could have existed for as long as the Ember had sprung from the Ashen. The Order of the Lucent Tree are the root that keeps these two branches of elves from severing and dying in this unpleasant and harsh world.

    Elf Paladins VR. It makes sense. Paladins really should have a third race, and there's plenty of reasons why you can give it to Elves without also giving them Clerics.

    • 1560 posts
    February 22, 2018 2:06 PM PST

    That's a huge reach to assume Elves ever had clerics. Just because they have a pantheon of gods and at some point had direct interaction with them doesn't imply they had clerics. It's far more likely that their gods imparted unto the Elves the ways of Druidry and Shamanism, especially given their love/reverence of nature. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 22, 2018 2:06 PM PST
    • 101 posts
    February 23, 2018 12:59 PM PST

    I'm starting to lose faith in the official site's accuracy.  Especially with the class descriptions.  Every time I see someone quote the Paladin description of "Once a Cleric, the Paladin has a call transcending the customs of the Cleric Order. Led by her convictions, she sets off to carry out her own righteous judgment." I feel like VR actually doesn't give a care about that description.  Because Dark Myr are clerics that can't be paladins... and even the Paladin description says that they set off to carry out 'their' own righteous judgments...  So it never occurred to this "hateful" species that wield divine power that they can use a weapon too?  I think they should just get rid of using lore as the justification of race/class restrictions and just say they are doing it to add another dynamic to game balancing/unbalancing.  Its just upsetting most of us that are trying to piece together some kind of information using (very incomplete) information that has been presented to us from years ago on the "official site" and hasn't been updated since...  Quite literally the description of one of the two most important aspects of people playing the game is grossly incomplete... the class (the vehicle used to actually access the game) description.  You can't start building game balance without even knowing what you want your players to even be capable of doing.  There should be at least ONE person working on this... people don't even know wtf roles will be available for the classes, so everyone is just speculating and theorycrafting.  At least identify roles... get some forward progression; change the class descriptions to match the races available or get rid of the misleading descriptions until it is flushed out.  #jaded sorry for the rant   :(  

    • 1560 posts
    February 23, 2018 4:57 PM PST

    Darch said:

    I'm starting to lose faith in the official site's accuracy.  Especially with the class descriptions.  Every time I see someone quote the Paladin description of "Once a Cleric, the Paladin has a call transcending the customs of the Cleric Order. Led by her convictions, she sets off to carry out her own righteous judgment." I feel like VR actually doesn't give a care about that description.  Because Dark Myr are clerics that can't be paladins... and even the Paladin description says that they set off to carry out 'their' own righteous judgments...  So it never occurred to this "hateful" species that wield divine power that they can use a weapon too?  

    I think the below could explain the Myr stuff. Fact is people are expecting too much lore/information right now as the game is still over a year away from release. We don't really nedd all the class/race lore at this stage, sure it would be nice to have and fun to play around with but it will all come in time. 

    Iksar said:

    Darchias said:

    Well, an important distinction is that Paladins are not just hybrid Clerics/Warriors: They are former clerics that devote the zeal they used to show their deity to a more mortal cause. The Dark Myr culture may revere those clerics to such a degree that Dark Myr Paladins are simply anamatha: No Cleric would dream of leaving the order for any reason, for the cause of their race and their deities tenants are so aligned no cause could transcend the Order.

    With the Paladin flavor as it is (as far as I know) there really isn't much room for another race to be Paladin. The requirement to be a former cleric would have to be lifted to have any non-Cleric race become one. I made my argument for Elf Paladins above, but like I mentioned there, the Cleric requirement for entry kind of puts the kibosh on it.

    That's how I see it. Dark Myr might just be so dedicated to Syronai that for one to assume they could use her gifts to take judgement into their own hands would be heresy of the highest order and an afront to the memory of her and her sacrifice. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at February 23, 2018 4:57 PM PST