Forums » The Wizard

Burst Vs Sustained DPS - Options

    • 26 posts
    April 5, 2017 7:00 AM PDT

    First some quick background and topic clarity.

    I thought classic EQ Wizards great up until Kurnak at which point they transitioned into what was in my opinion a sub-par class.  No doubt things changed with later expansions, but I never got beyond Velious.  Without an extended rant the core in my view is burst Vs sustained damage capability.  As mob HP gets higher the effectiveness of burst dps is deminished and sustained dps become far more appealing.

    Please don't get me wrong, I feel Wizards should be burst oriented and weak with sustained dps - it is all a matter of degree.  One of the reasons, I believe, Wizard burst dps did not scale in Kurnak in line with Mob HP evenly was this could easily make Wizards far too overpowered.  

    Topic idea: Separate spell lines / tools focused on burst and sustained respectively.

    I think a line of spells that are very very mana efficient - on long cool downs - would serve to anchor our sustained dps level.  We would be able to float at 90% mana and use these to contribute dps at our mana regen rate at an appropriate level without draining our mana reserve and comproming what I see as our core role: An emergancy tactical dps dump for the team.  We could then use our traditional mana hungry spells to burn when needed, depleating our resources appropriately.

    There are other options - perhaps a way to buff other party memebers to improve their damage, maybe with element specific weapon buffs?  This also serves to keep us humble solo and avoid risk of becoming overpowered.

    Of course, class design for Pantheon may vary greatly from classic EQ and there may be no issues.

    I am a very social player by nature, and love grouping / camping with folks.  I was saddened back in the day that my favourate class was not desirable for the social camping scene beyond a certain point and would love to avoid a repeat.

    What ideas do you have in regard to sustained Vs burst damage options, or group contribution while social camping?

     

    • 70 posts
    April 5, 2017 8:48 AM PDT

    I have also mained a wizard/sorcerer in most games I've played, and I agree that the developers should by all means avoid a class being sidelined for whatever reason, be it sub-par performance for its typical role, becoming unnecessary due to the ability to bypass mechanics (e.g. boss "burns") or other.

    With regard to DPS sustainability, I'm hoping every class played correctly will be able to obtain roughly the same numbers over the course of a fight, even if the tools to get there are different from class to class. But I also wouldn't like a class to become so dependent on consumables such as mana pots that every raid becomes a huge gold sink - unless other classes get the same treatment, of course ;)

    • 26 posts
    April 5, 2017 9:02 AM PDT

    Mana pots! *shudder*

    I hope Pantheon doesn't have them!

    • 10 posts
    April 17, 2017 10:49 PM PDT

    I like the way DDO handled this, and it was rather simple but elegant. Ranged weapon attacks.

     

    Why not just give wizards staffs/wands the ability to do damage in an "auto attack" manner. This both gives them sustained dps (albiet i would assume less than melee, at the benfit of range) and burst dps for when they are actually casting spells (i would assume casting would delay staff attacks).

    You could just tailor the range and root breaking ability of these weapons so as not to become lumi staffs (eq ref).

    • 683 posts
    April 18, 2017 10:50 AM PDT

    I'd prefer it to be in the hands of the player by making use of the living codex to tailor their spells to how they want to play. If you want to make your spells massive damage but with long cast time/cooldown/or high mana cost then it should be an option, and it should be just as efficient as throwing out however many fast casting low damage spells that can be cast in the same time. 

     

    Some people like pressing buttons all the time, others like myself are more content just dropping occasional big bombs and being able to see a sizeable chunk of mob HP drop off. 

    • 26 posts
    April 20, 2017 11:59 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Some people like pressing buttons all the time, others like myself are more content just dropping occasional big bombs and being able to see a sizeable chunk of mob HP drop off. 


    Yes, me too.  I liked the traditional Wizard playstyle, and would like to see that maintained.

    The only concern I have is the risk of being sidelined in the social camping scene if the class is considered to contribute less.  Time will tell.  

    The dev team have acknowledged this concern, which is fantastic, and I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with.


    This post was edited by Rykath at April 20, 2017 12:00 PM PDT
    • 320 posts
    April 20, 2017 2:52 PM PDT

    I also like my Wizard to be a bit traditional. I do like many of the Ideas in Syntro's Post "Masters of time and space" in this section of the forum. 

    I always wished my Wizard had a Slider that could be used to adjust the power and Mana usage of the spells I was casting. I slide my slider to 50%, and everything cast would use half the Mana , Cause Half the Aggro, and Cause half the damage. It would be adjustable from 25% to Full Power. That could solve some of the lacking finesse in Wizard casting. After all a Wizard is a Master of Casting Spells and throttling the power would be a simple thing.

    This Idea would allow a Wizard to play as a steady damage dealer with lower output if needed: or as the very Important Role of Insurance Policy, when things go bad and real power has to be brought into play for a short time.

     


    This post was edited by Skycaster at April 20, 2017 2:53 PM PDT
    • 394 posts
    April 20, 2017 5:42 PM PDT

    Skycaster said:

    I also like my Wizard to be a bit traditional. I do like many of the Ideas in Syntro's Post "Masters of time and space" in this section of the forum. 

    I always wished my Wizard had a Slider that could be used to adjust the power and Mana usage of the spells I was casting. I slide my slider to 50%, and everything cast would use half the Mana , Cause Half the Aggro, and Cause half the damage. It would be adjustable from 25% to Full Power. That could solve some of the lacking finesse in Wizard casting. After all a Wizard is a Master of Casting Spells and throttling the power would be a simple thing.

    This Idea would allow a Wizard to play as a steady damage dealer with lower output if needed: or as the very Important Role of Insurance Policy, when things go bad and real power has to be brought into play for a short time.

     

    Thats a cool idea with the ability to change the damage / mana / cast time of a spell on the fly.. maybe this could be as simple as pressing the spell again during the cast time to end the spell and drop the bomb at that point with the reduced mana cost and damage.

    This would also be a really useful tool for enchanters who want to do a short Mez and dont want to burn a big chunk of mana using mez at full power.

    • 13 posts
    April 30, 2017 11:24 AM PDT

    Camping groups need wizzards in my opinion.  Reason for this is AOE!!  Kill mobs quicker means more loot and more xp.   I actually like High Outputs, but make sure the cool downs are set right.  If you play a wizzard you want to see the BOOM.  Like a Rogue wants to see high numbers on backstab.  It's why you play the class, but with that comes discipline.  You boom to fast and well your taking a sand nap or getting up close and personable with the tile on the floor.  I believe in Games to many people want to sit and just continuely cast on mobs in dungeons.  if you go back to old school, then how many times where the casters casting one spell and then sitting?  This happened alot in Dungeon camps because you had to conserve your mana for that one pull that was coming.  So you didn't continuely cast or you would be OOM.  A good Caster knows not to use all the mana on one mob and then sit, you need to conserve use it when you have to.  When the mob turns and starts running, Kill it NOW!!  The other thing to remember is that you can use the lower level spells at high levels.  They will do less damange, but you wont' be taking dirt naps.  It's tactics know when to use your spells, not just sit there and hit your big boom spells.

    • 12 posts
    May 5, 2017 6:36 PM PDT

    if i read it correctly , they have a true aggro system in this game , if the wizard is bursty it will be hell for tanks , i dont mind 2~3 burst damage skills hidden behind critical or RNG algrothims , but 100% burst skills will be really bad with the current game design.

    i understand that we all like to see massive numbers even if it burns our mana bars or globes hehe , but again with the aggro system that i wish they perfect it , if you start casting powerful bursty spell id expect to have the monsters attention while u are casting it .


    This post was edited by xannanna at May 5, 2017 6:36 PM PDT
    • 240 posts
    May 10, 2017 8:51 AM PDT

    Rykath said:

    First some quick background and topic clarity.

    I thought classic EQ Wizards great up until Kurnak at which point they transitioned into what was in my opinion a sub-par class.  No doubt things changed with later expansions, but I never got beyond Velious.  Without an extended rant the core in my view is burst Vs sustained damage capability.  As mob HP gets higher the effectiveness of burst dps is deminished and sustained dps become far more appealing.

    Please don't get me wrong, I feel Wizards should be burst oriented and weak with sustained dps - it is all a matter of degree.  One of the reasons, I believe, Wizard burst dps did not scale in Kurnak in line with Mob HP evenly was this could easily make Wizards far too overpowered.  

    /snip

    Love your ideas about creating abilities for sustained dps while allowing for burst dps to still occur.  However, I want to emphasis how the wizard in EQ1 changed through the expansions and greatly effected their role in the game.  

    In vanilla, they were great to have in groups.  Damage potential to HP on mobs was pretty well balanced.  Kunark rolls out, and mob HP makes a sizable jump, although commensurate changes were not made to wizard damage or innate mana regen.  The class turned into a one-trick-pony burst machine, able to dump it's mana bar in a very very short amount of time and still lay down some nice damage.  This came at a cost of sustained dps.  The result of this expansion was immediately evident.  Wizards were generally last to be picked for exp groups because they couldnt keep up with other classes mob after mob after mob, and you had wizards meditating through multiple fights before engaging again.  However, they were in high demand for raids for burn phases of fights.  This issue wasnt properly addressed until PoP with a line of fast casting, low damage, low mana spells, but at that point the stigma was almost too much to overcome.  Wizards did not regain "viable" status in the communities eyes until Dragons of Norrath.  Wizards werent alone in this either - your average necro was also last to be picked for groups because their class mechanics didnt support a fast-pulling, fast-killing exp group.

    Making sure the wizard is viable and desired in group and raid content is of paramount importance.  We should be professional damage despensers of the highest order, and have tools at our disposal that support both burst and sustained damage, at the cost of mana efficiency.   Sustained dps abilities that are mana efficient, and burst abilities that put up insane numbers, but cost us our mana bar with a lenthy recovery.

     

    • 15 posts
    May 19, 2017 10:30 PM PDT

    I feel that Magician was the key reason why Wizard had its terrible days grouping. Summoner shouldn't have large burst damage in this game so as to keep Wizard unique. I played both of them for a long time and liked both of them, but I always felt ashamed to play my Wizard in groups with all the downtime and lack of very long distance (300 vs the normal 200) ranged (I like sitting on top of hills and using the magnification spells while lightning boltin').

    Summoner should be able to stack sustained damage from multiple sources like before. I'd think of it more like burning a house...you create the flames and spend a lesser amount of mana sustaining it until the whole structure is engulfed in it. The Wizard spends all of his/her mana in order to just destroy the thing it wants to destroy, and they would have the spells needed to destroy anything if they know what to cast. Necromancer on the other hand was like an inverse Wizard that needed large hp-pool mobs to make full use of their DoTs. I guess the question here is "What mobs need Wizards?"

    Wizards should tank caster mobs to offset their huge weakness to physical damage as the other INT casters can deal with melee. Wizards should be encouraged to wear resist gear more than any other class. Caster mobs do heavy damage and no tank wants to swap their equipment every single time one comes out. Wizard's burst damage works wonders against those mobs in normal group settings.

    I do not know how burst AOE can work if the group isn't focused on tanking multiple mobs. The disinterest in AOE, now that I remember was the main reason why I felt disappointed in my Wizard and always felt like those spells were mostly useless. Wizards should be trying to hit as many mobs with one spell as possible, and luckily it's not early 2000s and we can have smaller, swarm-type mobs for that purpose. Expert Wizards should know how to AOE without, well...dying. Before playing EQ I played Magic: The Gathering and loved the massive damage spells that wiped entire boards of creatures...Wizard was sort of like that when I was peacefully dying in Blackburrow, but large hp-pools and conservative D&D design decisions....didn't sustain that feeling.

    Truth is the question is simple to answer...just get a small damage, mana-efficient, larger cooldown spell, and a mana-inefficient super-burn spell with a short cooldown...however, I would personally like to combine spells so that damage gets stronger or has some wild effects like modern EQ tried to do (and kinda failed). I don't think AOE spells need that same complication. I considered Wizard having minor short-duration DoTs, but I feel Summoner is better with short duration DoTs with things like walls of fire and floors covered in spiky things. Wizard should be the class people ask for to "RAIN LIGHTNING on my ENEMIES!"

    • 320 posts
    May 20, 2017 8:10 AM PDT

    Interesting thread today on the EQ1 official forums regarding magicians/wizards, purely providing opinions about how they're perceived in 'classic' EQ. (and discussion about burst vs. sustained DPS)

    • 26 posts
    May 20, 2017 8:50 PM PDT

    Thanks for linking that thread Vjek.  It does a good job of explaining my concern.

    Here's hoping Pantheon will be different.