I'd like to see illusions have impact especially from an environmental aspect.
An example is druid wolf form. A shaggy dog will be hot in the desert, but at home in freezing climates.
Myr should grant EB. Troll some increased STR...
Air elemental should increase dodge, but decrease resistance to wind or force attacks.
In short, I'd really like to see illusions be far more robust over all. Illusions in EQ, for example, are not very interesting. Some are fun for a bit, but a slightly better vision is often not worth the effort. 1 regen per tick is nice, but not worth being too ugly for words. :p
I guess it might depend on whether we are talking about illusions (visual & audio only) or something more akin to polymorph effects with real physical changes.
I guess you want polymorph style effects - I think they would be cool also - but should be rarer than just the illusionary type effects as they are more powerful.
I'd like to see both as distinct types =)
Regardless of class, illusions are still not the same as transformations. So it doesn't make sense to actually take on any traits of your illusion. An illusion just makes it so that others perceive you to be something that you are not. But nothing physically changes about you. With a transformation, you actually become a different being. A druid's wolf form is more than just an illusion, it is a transformation. So it may make sense to have some other environmental effects in that case. But you need to specify what you're talking about. Who other than an Enchanter would be able to take on the form of a troll or myr? As Rykath said, I think Pantheon should have both. In fact, I expect it to. But it's important to differentiate the two as they have distinct meanings and implications. Forms should be affected by climate and other factors. Illusions should not.
I would prefer to see only faction changes for an illusion. For a spell that allowed me to take on another form (wolf,bear,etc...) I would love to see environmental impacts. Floors not being slippery to some, walls being easier to climb in others, and huge benefits to being an underwater creature in an underwater environment.
Completely agree with most eveyrone here. Illusions are spells that trick the mind into believing something that is false. Transformations are spells that allow you to take on the form of another being.
Illusions should do nothing more than change your outward appearance, and thus changing how NPCs view you (faction impact) while Transformations should allow you to take on every aspect and trait of that being. Transformation spells should be much more powerful in that they grant special attributes, but they should be fewer and far between I think. Whats the point in building in racial differences if there are Transformation spells that negate the penalties and boons to race selection?
I don't think the distinction is realistic, because:
a. it's all magic anyway. It's not like you're putting on an ogre costume, you're using magic to transform yourself in appearance.
b. in wolf form, the druid still has all the abilities of a druid. If a druid were really turning into a wolf, or a shaman really into a bear, they would not be able to speak or work intricate finger spells... so how can we say that they should take on 'being a wolf' but still argue that they should be able to use their spells or other things still?
Amris said:I don't think the distinction is realistic, because:
a. it's all magic anyway. It's not like you're putting on an ogre costume, you're using magic to transform yourself in appearance.
b. in wolf form, the druid still has all the abilities of a druid. If a druid were really turning into a wolf, or a shaman really into a bear, they would not be able to speak or work intricate finger spells... so how can we say that they should take on 'being a wolf' but still argue that they should be able to use their spells or other things still?
I can understand why it's hard to believe a wolf can cast spells, if I remember right in DnD a druid could not cast spells while shapeshifted at least until level 18 when they could perform verbal and somatic spells but not those with material components.
BUT as stated above, an illusion is nothing more than a deceptive appearance. It's a fake, it's all in the name. It's like a Jedi mind trick on those around you so they perceive you as something you aren't, and since you aren't a Myr or Ogre you wouldn't get water breathing or Ogre strength.
Amris said:I don't think the distinction is realistic, because:
a. it's all magic anyway. It's not like you're putting on an ogre costume, you're using magic to transform yourself in appearance.
b. in wolf form, the druid still has all the abilities of a druid. If a druid were really turning into a wolf, or a shaman really into a bear, they would not be able to speak or work intricate finger spells... so how can we say that they should take on 'being a wolf' but still argue that they should be able to use their spells or other things still?
A) Illustions are not transofrmations. You are not changing your body. You are casting a spell that creates an aura of sorts that affects the perception of others. Its a trick of the mind, not a transofrmation.
B) You are right in that I believe druids should be limited in what they can do in wolf form. I think any transofrmation spell should come with some penalty. If you are in wolf form you shouldn't be able to use some spells. Though, to assume spells require hand motions is a bit wrong I think. It really depends on the world. There are plenty of fantasy worlds where magic does not require hand motions. In many even though most casters use hand motions it isn't required and is more to help the caster "visualize" the magic. Magic has no rules when it comes to this sort of thing.
An illusion doesn't effect the physical body, transformations do. Illusions are cheap trickery, transformations change your entire body on a molecular level. One should be low cost and easy to use, the other should be high cost and high risk and hard to use. Now if they want all spells like this to be transformations, then I think they need to be of a higher cost. Again it negate a LOT of the pros and cons of race selection.
For those that play D&D or Pathfinder, I wouldn't dismiss illusions as mere gimmicks. They have real effects in those games.
For example, Shadow Evocation can be used to cast an illusionary fireball. If the person successfully disbelieves the illusion, they still take 20% damage. Shadow Evocation can also be used to cast Daylight, and everyone would be able to see using it. Shadow Conjuration lets you summon a creature using an illusion, once again if it is disbelieved it's only 20% it's normal strength. Shadow Walk is an illusion that allows multiple people to effectively teleport with a single spell.
I think in various fantasy worlds, there is plenty of precedence for illusion spells having real effects.
Honestly for me it all depends on what specifically we're talking. If we're talking item clickies and things then I'd side strongly on the "It should only be an apperance item" because otherwise it impacts gameplay and potentially class balance. If its a character spell or ability then I'd easily be game for them also gaining abilities that make sense with their class. For example druids in EQ1 got a number of benefits from their various wolf forms but they were all abilities they had other spells that could provide (SoW for example). The same with enchanter illusions in EQ1, they had some that did things including faction but those addon abilities were all pretty much already in their spell list, including faction modifying spells. That said, I'd love to see illusions used in a number of ways, such as maybe an illusion buff that makes the buff holders target always be marked for other to see for a visual main assist instead of having that just be an innate gameplay feature. I think things like that would be a great way to add utility to some classes since its easily a quality of life ability but something you could easily do without.
kelenin said:For those that play D&D or Pathfinder, I wouldn't dismiss illusions as mere gimmicks. They have real effects in those games.
For example, Shadow Evocation can be used to cast an illusionary fireball. If the person successfully disbelieves the illusion, they still take 20% damage. Shadow Evocation can also be used to cast Daylight, and everyone would be able to see using it. Shadow Conjuration lets you summon a creature using an illusion, once again if it is disbelieved it's only 20% it's normal strength. Shadow Walk is an illusion that allows multiple people to effectively teleport with a single spell.
I think in various fantasy worlds, there is plenty of precedence for illusion spells having real effects.
Eh, that's not the best example IMHO. Shadow spells are under the illusion type of spells but only the spell the target sees is an illusion and what they are actually doing is causing psychic pain/damage to the target, the closest typing from DnD Illusions for this would be Glamers.
The shadow spells really feel like they just didn't know where else to put them.
Iksar said:kelenin said:For those that play D&D or Pathfinder, I wouldn't dismiss illusions as mere gimmicks. They have real effects in those games.
For example, Shadow Evocation can be used to cast an illusionary fireball. If the person successfully disbelieves the illusion, they still take 20% damage. Shadow Evocation can also be used to cast Daylight, and everyone would be able to see using it. Shadow Conjuration lets you summon a creature using an illusion, once again if it is disbelieved it's only 20% it's normal strength. Shadow Walk is an illusion that allows multiple people to effectively teleport with a single spell.
I think in various fantasy worlds, there is plenty of precedence for illusion spells having real effects.
Eh, that's not the best example IMHO. Shadow spells are under the illusion type of spells but only the spell the target sees is an illusion and what they are actually doing is causing psychic pain/damage to the target, the closest typing from DnD Illusions for this would be Glamers.
The shadow spells really feel like they just didn't know where else to put them.
Actually, every one of those spells I mentioned draw from the plane of shadow to add substance to each spell cast. But each of them is still considered an illusion. My point is just because it's called an illusion, it doesn't mean it can do nothing but fool people into believing something. The spells can have substantive effects and still be called illusions.
In EQ2, there were 2 enchanters types. Illusionist and Coercer. Illusionists had one of the best buffs in the game "Illusory Arm" that increased your chance to double attack for both melee and ranged. This ability was extremely powerful, especially on rangers. I see no issue with allowing illusions to have some sort of meaningful impact. Let's say a necromancer, for example, can cast an illusionary ghost on an NPC that causes fear. A rogue could cast an illusion of himself that can help with threat level management as it can confuse an NPC. A monk can cast an illusion of himself that allows him to avoid a melee attack. Enchanters could cast a spell on their group that creates an illusion of each member of the party that can either cause damage or increase/decrease threat.
I agree that illusions and transformations are two totally different things but I wouldn't write off illusions as something that could only impact faction. I think we just need to distinguish spells that have "illusionary properties" from racial illusion spells. For racial illusion spells, I think those should be limited to faction change only and that enchanters should be the only class that can cast them. If you have a few illusion flasks in your bag from your pledge tier, those should be the only illusions you ever get. When I played EQOA, I remember enchanters having really awesome pets. They could cast illusions on their pet to change what they looked like, change their size, etc. They could also cast an illusion spell on themself that could provide some interesting looks. Every class should have a few things that are unique ... for me, the racial illusion spell line belongs to enchanters. If other classes get something with illusionary properties, that's okay, and it's perfectly reasonable that they can have a "real" impact.
I would prefer those spells be something other than illusion/illusory class of spells. Illusions/Illusory things cannot hurt you (save for you falling into a pit or something where you though there was a floor). If there were an "Illusory Arm" spell in this then if anything it should be something you throw onto a tank for him to draw more aggro as the mob thinks he is a bigger threat and hitting him more than he really is. Just call it something else.
Iksar said:I would prefer those spells be something other than illusion/illusory class of spells. Illusions/Illusory things cannot hurt you (save for you falling into a pit or something where you though there was a floor). If there were an "Illusory Arm" spell in this then if anything it should be something you throw onto a tank for him to draw more aggro as the mob thinks he is a bigger threat and hitting him more than he really is. Just call it something else.
It is what it is ... I'm just pointing out that there is indeed merit to the notion of illusory spells offering more than just an illusion. Considering that EQ2 actually had a class called illusionist, they are the first thing I think of when it comes to casting illusory spells, and I remember the majority of them being super effective. At the end of the day it's up to VR to decide if they want to draw the line on something like this but from my personal perspective, having seen illusory spells used to great effect in the past, I see no issue with someone entertaining the kind of ideas that I have seen on this thread.
Amris said:Nanfoodle said:I think illusions should only change factions much like EQ1. I think they should just be illusions.
Some illusions in EQ did more than that. Wolf form does more than that for druids throughout all EQ. Air ele form gave levitate. Iksar gave regen.
Exception not the rule just like EQ1. VR wants to add some minor depth to a few of them that's fine. If it becomes a major thing for all illusions that would change the Enchanter to much. I know my says means little but this is not what I would want to see for this class.
Nanfoodle said:Exception not the rule just like EQ1. VR wants to add some minor depth to a few of them that's fine. If it becomes a major thing for all illusions that would change the Enchanter to much. I know my says means little but this is not what I would want to see for this class.
I don't follow this logic. Instead of having to get armor for that environment, the enchanter has to get a spell for it. I don't see a lot of difference between that and a warrior having to get resist gear.
Amris said:Nanfoodle said:Exception not the rule just like EQ1. VR wants to add some minor depth to a few of them that's fine. If it becomes a major thing for all illusions that would change the Enchanter to much. I know my says means little but this is not what I would want to see for this class.
I don't follow this logic. Instead of having to get armor for that environment, the enchanter has to get a spell for it. I don't see a lot of difference between that and a warrior having to get resist gear.
You say that like it's a small thing and it's just to OP. How do you balance a class that gets dozens of self buffs that cover so many areas? No thanks.