Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Counterspells and activatable Ripostes/Parries.

    • 338 posts
    March 4, 2017 4:55 AM PST
    I really enjoyed counter abilities in Vanguard.

    It felt really good to counter a big spell or perfectly time a block.

    This adds another level of paying attention to the mobs and their attack/spell animations.

    These type of abilities should be on medium recast timers so they can't be used to completely shut down a mobs damage.

    Abilities like this really add depth to the combat by layering on things for the people who are paying attention to take advantage of.


    If you played Vanguard did you use these type of abilities ? Would you like to see stuff like this in Pantheon ?


    Thanks in advance,
    Kiz~
    • 107 posts
    March 4, 2017 7:10 AM PST

    I certainly hope so too Kiz. Definitely made tanking more fun on mobs like Fengrot and whatever the one with the adds that would one shot ya.....my memory fails me.  Damn I miss raiding.

    • 432 posts
    March 4, 2017 7:33 AM PST

    I definitely look forward to seeing the 'kit' the developers plan to give tanks. Currently on World of Warcraft I play a Dwarf Monk as a tank. The reason why I don't play other tank classes is because they lack the great number of 'reactive' abilities that monks have. I enjoy meaningful choices (and having them) on what I want to do in any situation.

    Counter abilities or parry/dodge abilities are just some of the reactive 'twitchy' things I enjoy to play. While this is not a TAC MMO (True Action Combat) that does not mean it cannot have an active combat that pulls you in and makes you pay attention. 

     

    -Todd

     

    • 5 posts
    March 4, 2017 2:06 PM PST

    I don't mind counter abilities.

    But speaking of Vanguard/Fengrot, his Bonecrush used to kill me a lot when I was tanking him.
    Later I learned that you can see a certain icon on top of him when he is "casting" the ability, BUT only if your graphics settings are high enough.

    How well you perforn with counter abilities should obviously NOT dependend on your graphics settings...


    This post was edited by tunk at March 4, 2017 2:30 PM PST
    • 107 posts
    March 4, 2017 3:02 PM PST

    Not that it matters anymore, but I think I can remember being able to tell by his animations as well. But mainly I could tell due to our casters squawking about it in vent.

    • 9115 posts
    March 4, 2017 4:05 PM PST

    Filzin said:

    Not that it matters anymore, but I think I can remember being able to tell by his animations as well. But mainly I could tell due to our casters squawking about it in vent.

    Haha, that is exactly how we used to call it too, symbol overhead and casters screaming something or a dead tank :D

    • 243 posts
    March 4, 2017 5:01 PM PST

    I think these are a good idea Angry, and also could also apply to the healing classes, especially animations from the mob where you get a clue when a large damage ability is about to be used so you can be ready with a shield spell or a larger heal.  It would give healers something else to watch besides hitpoint bars, and involve them more in a fight.

    • 1584 posts
    March 4, 2017 6:28 PM PST

    I would love to see something like this, it would be a lot of fun seeing where you obviously have your normal, rotatinal abilities and than have the random reactive abilities to keep you on your toes and make sure you get them to become used, id say at least for tanks these abilities should also cuase extra threat as well so they know that parry/block is an important stat to acquire not just becuase it midigates dmg.  I know if it were real life and some blocked/parry my attack and gave me a swift uppercut or whatever i'd be extremely upset lol.

    • 107 posts
    March 5, 2017 6:14 AM PST

    I am not a fan of games that require quick reflexes and a great connection to be great at. I prefer a game to reward planning, situational awareness and properly timed ability use. I only ever seriously played EQ and Vanguard, briefly trying a few others, but nothing held me. I loved EQ, but when vanguard closed down, I went back to try it and was fairly disappointed in tanking after having experienced it in vg. Vg had more than just keeping your aggro rotation going. The well timed use of an invul, a 25% damage mitigation, a force block or forced taunt could make or break an encounter. Of course, hate generation and damage mitigation will always be king (so I hope for good balance), but I hope pantheon builds on what I think Vanguard really shined at.

     

    Kiz, great topic by the way. Really on point about reactives and what they added.

    • 187 posts
    March 5, 2017 6:23 AM PST

    I don't want this. One of the things about the older games that was enjoyable was that I didn't  HAVE to twitch game. I played a bard, and yes, that is twitch gaming. It required supreme focus at almost all times, and one second of loss of concentration could kill you.

     

    Other times, I could be on my cleric in a standard grinding group and I could actually TALK in the group sometimes. Like with words.

     

    I personally cannot reconcile this sort of thing with "not twitch gaming". I will be very disappointed if this is in the game, because being able to sometimes have moments of "lull" when I could safely say something in group without fear of needing to be free to use an ability is something that isn't optional for me unless I CHOSE that class that day. This is another thing that forces you to be in voice chat. Because you HAVE to keep your chatbar clear or you end up with something like this.....

     

    "Let's see if we can go t11111118888881111111... god damn it, my chat bar was open!"

     

    Really does nothing happy for me. :p

     

    And yes, in groups where we pushed the envelope a lot, my friends got used to seeing me going, "Let's see" "if we can" "go to X camp" "and get some" "ubergearZ". However, I was able to anticipate well enough in advance that I didn't have to panic and push the ENTER key. I could see the need coming without it being a sudden panic of "chirping in vent". It came up and I would anticipate it due to what was happening environmentally (oh look, I see the monk's health falling, press ENTER), not OMG OMG .0001 second to hit hotkey 1 OMG OMG!


    This post was edited by Amris at March 5, 2017 6:27 AM PST
    • 432 posts
    March 5, 2017 8:03 PM PST

    With all things balance. 

    I don't want to spend my time looking at my hot-bar instead of the game. But I don't want to spend my time waiting a million years to press a button. 

     

    These guys have been around the block a few times with MMO design. They got this.

     

    -Todd

    • 18 posts
    March 6, 2017 12:47 PM PST

    In theory these are great and work really well for creating engaging gameplay in single player games, particularly offline games.

    Personally I am not a huge fan of baked in mechanics that a fail point if someone has a higher ping/ more lag than another. Let's face it, the internet is far from perfect. Games Netcode can't fix that for everyone. Having abilities that require a short window of timing are not fun, they are a tedious choke point that leads to really sucking the fun out of an online game.

    • 173 posts
    March 6, 2017 12:59 PM PST

    I'm all for this.  It was great in Vanguard.  Not only were there the visual ques, but if i remember correctly there was an audible one as well.  It was also balanced so that missing it wasn't the end of the world nor was hitting it off the charts powerful.

     

    I have faith that if implemented VR will do a good job at making it work in a manner most fun for the vast majority.  Alas nothing will please all of the people all of the time.


    This post was edited by Holdolin at March 6, 2017 1:00 PM PST
    • 2886 posts
    March 7, 2017 6:59 AM PST

    Filzin said:

    I am not a fan of games that require quick reflexes and a great connection to be great at. I prefer a game to reward planning, situational awareness and properly timed ability use.

    How is that different? haha I would say counter abilities just require proper timing.

    Having to react to what your opponent is doing does not necessarily mean the game has an action combat system. It does not automatically make the game "twitch." Pantheon will never be a twitch game simply because it has an auto-attack system. Having buttons to press at certain times while you are auto attacking is crucial to keeping combat from getting boring.

    To the OP, counterplay is absolutely fundamental to having an engaging, deep, and rewarding combat system. I fully expect it to be a way to keep combat interesting.

    Furthermore: We know that VR is already thinking along these lines. From the FAQ: "With Pantheon, combat will still be action-packed and require close attention, using tactics, as well as reacting to what mobs and other players may be doing. In fact, so much will be going on that you will not want to have to worry about whether you are swinging your sword or not -- you will be casting spells, assuming stances, countering or deflecting your opponent’s moves and spells, and more." "The player will have enough time to react to what the NPC is doing (counterspell, deflect, move out of the way, etc.). Combat is more involved and the player will need to pay attention, but it is not ‘twitch’ in the way a first-person shooter is."

    I think a good way to have the both of best worlds is to have pre-emptive abilities. A very basic example would be "Block the next incoming melee attack." Rather than having to time it down to the millisecond, you now have a window of probably a few seconds. You can't be as slow as a snail, but it's a little more forgiving and it still requires the knowledge and strategy to think about which attack is coming next and whether or not it would be most efficient to block it.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at March 7, 2017 10:48 AM PST
    • 338 posts
    March 8, 2017 9:52 AM PST

    Wow that was a hell of a quote Baz...

     

    Exactly what I have been hoping for.

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~

    • 483 posts
    March 8, 2017 11:29 AM PST

    +1 for reactive combat that requires you to pay attention to the mobs animation, spell cast, stances, etc.

    Just don't make it a quick reflex type of thing, and for the love of god make it noticeable in the ingame world (the animations) and sound queues, not trough debuffs and UI.

     

    Edit: and maybe make it a increased chance to block or parry, to keep the rpg vibe.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at March 8, 2017 11:31 AM PST
    • 2886 posts
    March 8, 2017 11:30 AM PST

    Angrykiz said:

    Wow that was a hell of a quote Baz...

     

    Exactly what I have been hoping for.

     

    Thanks,

    Kiz~

    Glad to help clear things up.

    • 1434 posts
    March 8, 2017 2:21 PM PST

    I too hope to see these in Pantheon.

    There's a difference between twitch gameplay requiring a fraction of a second reaction with player movement and the need to aim, and abilities that require you to basically pay attention during combat. An animation or trigger that gives you a few seconds to respond should not require excessive twitch ability or an amazing high speed connection to the internet.

    Big +1 from me.

    • 29 posts
    March 28, 2017 9:08 AM PDT

    Counterspelling rocked. It gives classes another purpose to take them into groups besides DPS. Similar like Rangers in Vanguard had a short cooldown ability to take away Mobs buffs ( deadly ones which kills people if not countered or lets mobs HPs etc ). I remember the Griffon Quest Fungus mob wasnt possible to kill without a class that could remove the Buff on him.

     

    Also I like having to pay attention and then be fast to klick or group wipes. Im still playing a Game and not 100 years old. Hard content should require quick reflexes. And this doesnt only count for counterspelling / removing buffs. Hard hitting adds should be mezzed quick etc.