Forums » The Paladin

Paladin Race/Class Picture

    • 11 posts
    December 15, 2018 4:39 PM PST

    I like race restrictions.   If I want to play a paladin then I will pick one of the races that can be them.  If I wanna play a dark elf then I'll pick from the classes a dark elf can be.   And I think lore is the best reason for those restrictions.   If your race is pretty much evil POS, you don't get to be a paladin.  But you can be a dark knight (or some equilvalnt).  

    • 594 posts
    December 17, 2018 8:20 AM PST

    Thothmose said:

    I like race restrictions.   If I want to play a paladin then I will pick one of the races that can be them.  If I wanna play a dark elf then I'll pick from the classes a dark elf can be.   And I think lore is the best reason for those restrictions.   If your race is pretty much evil POS, you don't get to be a paladin.  But you can be a dark knight (or some equilvalnt).  

    So by your reasoning, if a race is good they are not allowed to be an evil class?  If a race can be a Paladin, they can't be a Dire Lord or Necromancer?
    What if a race is allowed to be a wizard, but not a summoner or enchanter, or if a race is allowed to be a druid but not a ranger, or if a race can be a cleric and a fighter, but not a Paladin... how does that tie into your reasoning of alignment dictating job choice?  Humans can't be both police and criminals/ Doctors and Murderers.  

    A character's race shouldn't determine their job - the reasoning for the class/race exclusions is for balancing of class populations.  Anyone can easily argue any other reason (especially Lore and alignment).

    • 95 posts
    December 17, 2018 9:15 AM PST

    Darch said:

    Thothmose said:

    I like race restrictions.   If I want to play a paladin then I will pick one of the races that can be them.  If I wanna play a dark elf then I'll pick from the classes a dark elf can be.   And I think lore is the best reason for those restrictions.   If your race is pretty much evil POS, you don't get to be a paladin.  But you can be a dark knight (or some equilvalnt).  

    So by your reasoning, if a race is good they are not allowed to be an evil class?  If a race can be a Paladin, they can't be a Dire Lord or Necromancer?
    What if a race is allowed to be a wizard, but not a summoner or enchanter, or if a race is allowed to be a druid but not a ranger, or if a race can be a cleric and a fighter, but not a Paladin... how does that tie into your reasoning of alignment dictating job choice?  Humans can't be both police and criminals/ Doctors and Murderers.  

    A character's race shouldn't determine their job - the reasoning for the class/race exclusions is for balancing of class populations.  Anyone can easily argue any other reason (especially Lore and alignment).

     I think race restriction is also needed some races just fit classes better due to their surroundings,gods, and lore. Like it does not make sense for a Dark Myr to be a ranger who can summon bears and panthers since they live underwater but they could be a druid because that just involves nature as a whole which is everywhere. Same with paladin, the whole reason they became paladins is because of a strong hate and need for vengence against the undead so its not 100% certain but I bet there will be a strong undead presence around the humans/dwarves that is attacking their settlements. Another good example if you look at the races that can not be bard gnomes which are a ball of energy, ogres and skars none of these races would make good singers/ instrument players if you think of what they are.

    Knowing the team there is for sure reasons why certain races can be certain classes its not just a balance thing if you read even the little bit of information about classes,races, and the world now you can reason why certain races can't be certain classes.


    This post was edited by Damacon at December 17, 2018 9:19 AM PST
    • 594 posts
    December 17, 2018 1:19 PM PST

    Damacon said:

     I think race restriction is also needed some races just fit classes better due to their surroundings,gods, and lore. Like it does not make sense for a Dark Myr to be a ranger who can summon bears and panthers since they live underwater but they could be a druid because that just involves nature as a whole which is everywhere. Same with paladin, the whole reason they became paladins is because of a strong hate and need for vengence against the undead so its not 100% certain but I bet there will be a strong undead presence around the humans/dwarves that is attacking their settlements. Another good example if you look at the races that can not be bard gnomes which are a ball of energy, ogres and skars none of these races would make good singers/ instrument players if you think of what they are.

    Knowing the team there is for sure reasons why certain races can be certain classes its not just a balance thing if you read even the little bit of information about classes,races, and the world now you can reason why certain races can't be certain classes.

    Further bolstering my opinion of how trying to use game lore will backfire, here are your arguments contested by your own logic:
    1. You say it make sense that a Dark Myr shouldn't be a Ranger because the ranger uses land animals... except that Masae's gift (the Druid's primary skill) is a Fox... and a Halfling god that Dark Myr and Ogres get...
        Add:  How hard would it be to make the Dark Myr Ranger's animal's aquatic predators, like an aligator, snake, Osprey... some Terminus specific sea animals...
    2. There will likely be more undead outside of the human and dwarf starting areas than in those areas as shown in a lot of the trailers and some of the streams.
    3. Your 3rd point was an argument that dwarves are better singers than Ogres and I don't know where you got that from

    I still say the race/class restrictions are simply for balancing - I personally don't care about that, I just get tired of hearing people trying to justify it using Lore.


    This post was edited by Darch at December 17, 2018 1:25 PM PST
    • 95 posts
    December 17, 2018 1:35 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Further bolstering my opinion of how trying to use game lore will backfire, here are your arguments contested by your own logic:
    1. You say it make sense that a Dark Myr shouldn't be a Ranger because the ranger uses land animals... except that Masae's gift (the Druid's primary skill) is a Fox... and a Halfling god that Dark Myr and Ogres get...
    2. There will likely be more undead outside of the human and dwarf starting areas than in those areas as shown in a lot of the trailers and some of the streams.
    3. Your 3rd point was an argument that dwarves are better singers than Ogres and I don't know where you got that from

    I still say the race/class restrictions are simply for balancing - I personally don't care about that, I just get tired of hearing people trying to justify it using Lore.

     You are right on the druid part I forgot about the fox companion so they probably should remove druid from Dark Myr unless they plan on changing the companion. There may be undead in other places, but I think it will be a big part of the story around those two race and I bet we will see a raid zonesomewhere around there with undead. The 3rd one is the most wrong you have obviously never watched snow white haha, singing actually fits the usual discription the jolly drunk dwarves you usually hear about. Plus I could not imagine giant ogre or a kill happy skar strumming a lute to help their allies through song.

     In a lot of sense you are right that is balance but I refuse to believe that no actual thought was put into what races can be what classes or else the classes themselves will be pretty dang boring. I do feel like human is the cop out race its just a  race needed for balance but most of the other races I feel will have a strong sense of why they have the classes they do. I think the whole reason you would have mutiple starting zones is to have a sense of a home and if that home does not reflect what you are then it is pointless to have.


    This post was edited by Damacon at December 17, 2018 1:38 PM PST
    • 2353 posts
    December 18, 2018 4:41 PM PST

    Masae isn't a god. 

    • 594 posts
    December 19, 2018 6:53 AM PST

    Iksar said:

    Masae isn't a god. 

    Arguing semantics...  A being granting a spiritual caster their abilities in most games can safely be referred to as a god or diety and people will know what they are speaking about.  The point that was being made was that Masae the Halfling "Ward" is not a Dark Myr, Ogre or even an Elf, Human or Archai and Foxes aren't aquatic animals.

    • 245 posts
    December 19, 2018 8:22 AM PST

    Damacon said:

    Darch said:

    Thothmose said:

    I like race restrictions.   If I want to play a paladin then I will pick one of the races that can be them.  If I wanna play a dark elf then I'll pick from the classes a dark elf can be.   And I think lore is the best reason for those restrictions.   If your race is pretty much evil POS, you don't get to be a paladin.  But you can be a dark knight (or some equilvalnt).  

    So by your reasoning, if a race is good they are not allowed to be an evil class?  If a race can be a Paladin, they can't be a Dire Lord or Necromancer?
    What if a race is allowed to be a wizard, but not a summoner or enchanter, or if a race is allowed to be a druid but not a ranger, or if a race can be a cleric and a fighter, but not a Paladin... how does that tie into your reasoning of alignment dictating job choice?  Humans can't be both police and criminals/ Doctors and Murderers.  

    A character's race shouldn't determine their job - the reasoning for the class/race exclusions is for balancing of class populations.  Anyone can easily argue any other reason (especially Lore and alignment).

     I think race restriction is also needed some races just fit classes better due to their surroundings,gods, and lore. Like it does not make sense for a Dark Myr to be a ranger who can summon bears and panthers since they live underwater but they could be a druid because that just involves nature as a whole which is everywhere. Same with paladin, the whole reason they became paladins is because of a strong hate and need for vengence against the undead so its not 100% certain but I bet there will be a strong undead presence around the humans/dwarves that is attacking their settlements. Another good example if you look at the races that can not be bard gnomes which are a ball of energy, ogres and skars none of these races would make good singers/ instrument players if you think of what they are.

    Knowing the team there is for sure reasons why certain races can be certain classes its not just a balance thing if you read even the little bit of information about classes,races, and the world now you can reason why certain races can't be certain classes.

     

     Just a point of clarification:

      The dark myr were sea creatures from another world altogether. When they came to terminus the sea's were posionous to them thus their god gave up her godhood to give them legs and lungs and then her people she loved so killed her for the insult :-(

     But they have been living on the land like all the other races for approximiately 537 years at the start of the game.

    • 95 posts
    December 19, 2018 10:37 AM PST

    DracoKalen said:

      Just a point of clarification:

      The dark myr were sea creatures from another world altogether. When they came to terminus the sea's were posionous to them thus their god gave up her godhood to give them legs and lungs and then her people she loved so killed her for the insult :-(

     But they have been living on the land like all the other races for approximiately 537 years at the start of the game.

     

    I didn't read everything about the Dark Myr, now they sound like any other race which make me a bit sad. I was imagining them living underwater in like a gulf area where their newbie life would take place maybe even longer since they are such a xenophobic race and then there real adventure begins when they finally step on land it would of been so unique!


    This post was edited by Damacon at December 19, 2018 10:41 AM PST
    • 2353 posts
    December 20, 2018 4:42 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Arguing semantics...  A being granting a spiritual caster their abilities in most games can safely be referred to as a god or diety and people will know what they are speaking about.  The point that was being made was that Masae the Halfling "Ward" is not a Dark Myr, Ogre or even an Elf, Human or Archai and Foxes aren't aquatic animals.

    I mean Masae isn't granting them their abilities or at all responsible for their ability to cast in general, they just share a manifestation of their companion with those who follow the same path (druid) around the world. For all we know Masae does it for their own benefit since they might be able to tap into each manifestation that exists, creating a massive network of information allowing them to keep tabs on what is going on around the world.

     

    When you take a step back for a second you see many classes have pretty much the same issue of "How does each class of each race have the exact same abilities/spells down to the names themselves as every other race?" Some of the more notable and specifc spells currently known:

     

    Cleric: Light of Murik, Olamai's Blessing, Eko's Purifying Bolt, Reckon's Shield, Reithal's Luminous Shield (This one seems more questionable than perhaps all the others (including druid) since cleric bind themselves to the ancient tomes of their order, so all their divine powers should be coming from their own very different pantheons/deities)

    Shaman: Hand of Aivelu, Fang of Harune, and to an extent: Shackle of the Dust Eater, Skymane's Momento, Mark of the Fireclaw

    Enchanter: Lyrith’s Embellishment/Grace, Enshire’s Faint Whisper, Squee’s Mimicry, Malison’s Crushing Grip, Eyumai’s Dulling, Ghaven’s Wild Display

    Ranger: Ladwen's Whisper, Kaylen's Command

    Wizard: Ckru-Venoth’s Fiery Winds, Veyrule’s Icy Blade

    • 18 posts
    December 25, 2018 4:16 AM PST

    Well looking as how the Paladin is described under classes it seems odd that any race who is able to be a cleric can't be a paladin, also I know it's the achetype but on the class page it says pretty much nothing in the decription about them being "good" to qoute

    Once a Cleric themselves, the Paladin has felt a call that transcends the rigid customs of the Cleric Order. Led by their convictions, the Paladins set off on their own to carry out their righteous judgment as they see fit.

    So you also got Hymn of Justice which could be argued, well of course they are good! It's justice! Well justice tend to be subjective as pedantic as that is.

    I feel Paladins are more akin to how they were in WoW with the whole Scarlet Crusade deal, you had Paladins who did what could be considered actual evil stuff, but they were convinced they were in the pursuit of justice. Now do I think every race should be able to have a Paladin? No, I just think it makes more sense for any race who can be clerics to be able to be paladins as they practically seem to be clerics who decided to pick up weapons training.

    So regarding the whole hatred of undead part. Well that seems pretty easy, who don't? No really? The Dwarves can't be necromancers, but the humans can, so we got a 50/50 split between the two "Paladin Races" but Dwarves also don't seem to enjoy a lot of magic in general, although I suppose that is a whole other can of worms, that I'm not really interested or massively invested in.

    From what I understood from an earlier post as well the "alignment system" is also more fluent, you aren't locked in good vs evil vs neutral but depending on your choices you may be able to turn one way or another, could be wrong about that, but if I'm right, I do think it's fair to keep that in mind before we write off the idea of the Dark Myr paladin.

    Lastly, as a somewhat personal opinion I do think it's kind of a shame that Paladin is only given to the most generic races, it's a class I enjoy and with how VR seems to experiment with more unique races, it would be a shame to end up with the same roster of 5 humans or whatever.

    Ultimately, it's VR's game, however I also think it's good to come with constructive feedback and voice opinions in a civil manner.

    XXX

    • 11 posts
    December 26, 2018 4:11 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Thothmose said:

    I like race restrictions.   If I want to play a paladin then I will pick one of the races that can be them.  If I wanna play a dark elf then I'll pick from the classes a dark elf can be.   And I think lore is the best reason for those restrictions.   If your race is pretty much evil POS, you don't get to be a paladin.  But you can be a dark knight (or some equilvalnt).  

    So by your reasoning, if a race is good they are not allowed to be an evil class?  If a race can be a Paladin, they can't be a Dire Lord or Necromancer?



    That seems absolutly resonable.  I would expect that there would be generic jobs that would be pretty much univerasally accessable to any race, baring extreem examples.  Things like a warrior, rogue, wizard.  Maybe ranger.   Some of the more specilized classes I could see less race options.    Or do like some games and have sub-races that have different class options.  

    But as I said before, I don't really care either way. If I want to play a restricted class, I'll pick a race that has access to it.   If playing a specific races is more important to me than the class, I'll play the race and pick from the avaliable classes.

    • 1112 posts
    February 9, 2019 4:47 AM PST

    What races could they be I mean I am looking at all the possibilities and none of them fit, and just wanting to be a Dark Myrs Paladin doesn't actually mean that Dark Myrs should be Paladins which is basically all I'm hearing, it doesn't really matter if you are that strong in wanting to be a paladin than pick it within the races the devs have allowed us to become paladins, if you want to play a certain race than pick one of the classes that can be that race, it's really that simple.


    This post was edited by Riahuf22 at February 9, 2019 4:48 AM PST
    • 2 posts
    April 27, 2019 1:10 AM PDT

    I feel like Elves or Halflings could definitely be paladins, but I personally was hoping they'd have a High Elf race that's a little more noble and could be paladins.  Little late for that though!  But heck, even cleric is limited to only three races.  That seems like an odder choice than limiting paladin to two.


    This post was edited by Nihelus at April 27, 2019 1:11 AM PDT
    • 10 posts
    May 3, 2019 1:34 PM PDT

    I seriously hope this decision is re-thought. Paladin (at this time) is the only class with only 2 races. I Belive this will lead to them being sorely underplayed. It is my intention to play a Paladin, but I am interested in neither Dwarves nor Humans.

    • 12 posts
    May 17, 2019 9:03 PM PDT

    I think it would be cool if the Dark Myr had a quest that allowed them to become paladins. Based on lore they'd be labeled a heretic and the player would have to deal with faction reprecussions based on this decision. This would allow players access to another race, could keep the prevalence Myr paladins rare depending on quest difficulty, and still be consistent with lore.


    This post was edited by sidis at May 17, 2019 9:04 PM PDT
    • 4 posts
    July 23, 2019 6:20 AM PDT

    Still not impressed with Race Restriction, I just don't see lore helping gameplay regarding this Class. Restricting us to two races left will have limited racialial abilities hurts the class and I believe game play. Also the fact that loot will rot in dungeons is correct (bind on pick-up) it most certainly will because the class is gonna be under played do to your restrictions. Oh well, Dire Lord here I come...

    • 594 posts
    July 24, 2019 7:15 AM PDT

    Amped said:

    I seriously hope this decision is re-thought. Paladin (at this time) is the only class with only 2 races. I Belive this will lead to them being sorely underplayed. It is my intention to play a Paladin, but I am interested in neither Dwarves nor Humans.

    I think this is intentional - same with giving the Dire Lord chain armor.  If the DL could wear full plate, or if the Paladin could be a race other than the two least popular races, fewer people that want to fill the role of tank would play a warrior and instead choose DL or Pal... making the warrior underplayed - and it sounds like the devs want the warrior to be THE tank of tanks.

    I don't think they will be "underplayed" as much as "not overplayed" as they would likely be any other way (same as the DL).

    • 1557 posts
    July 24, 2019 11:26 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    Amped said:

    I seriously hope this decision is re-thought. Paladin (at this time) is the only class with only 2 races. I Belive this will lead to them being sorely underplayed. It is my intention to play a Paladin, but I am interested in neither Dwarves nor Humans.

    I think this is intentional - same with giving the Dire Lord chain armor.  If the DL could wear full plate, or if the Paladin could be a race other than the two least popular races, fewer people that want to fill the role of tank would play a warrior and instead choose DL or Pal... making the warrior underplayed - and it sounds like the devs want the warrior to be THE tank of tanks.

    I don't think they will be "underplayed" as much as "not overplayed" as they would likely be any other way (same as the DL).

     

    It's just lore tied and not designed as an "Everything must by happy" game.

     

    Thinking everything is a political choice really gets down to obtaining the answer you want first.

     

    Honestly race has little in common with popularity, that's a myth, in EQ druids were not much played until people discovered kiting and it became flooded with new druids from everywhere, and people kept their toon because they had a large variety of play including movement speed, kiting (quad), healing/offhealing and teleports. Comfortable and less technical classes are allways more popular because they are more accessible for the same results (or better), not the race/class matrix.

    • 2353 posts
    July 24, 2019 3:10 PM PDT

    Humans are (in just about every single MMO) the MOST played race, often the second most isn't even close. 

    • 1573 posts
    July 24, 2019 9:19 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

     

    Honestly race has little in common with popularity, that's a myth, in EQ druids were not much played until people discovered kiting and it became flooded with new druids from everywhere, and people kept their toon because they had a large variety of play including movement speed, kiting (quad), healing/offhealing and teleports. Comfortable and less technical classes are allways more popular because they are more accessible for the same results (or better), not the race/class matrix.

    Except that race/class restrictions are 100% a tool used by game designers to manipulate the class demographics. It is a primary function of the system in the first place. 

    • 1557 posts
    July 25, 2019 2:24 AM PDT

    Keno Monster said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

     

    Honestly race has little in common with popularity, that's a myth, in EQ druids were not much played until people discovered kiting and it became flooded with new druids from everywhere, and people kept their toon because they had a large variety of play including movement speed, kiting (quad), healing/offhealing and teleports. Comfortable and less technical classes are allways more popular because they are more accessible for the same results (or better), not the race/class matrix.

    Except that race/class restrictions are 100% a tool used by game designers to manipulate the class demographics. It is a primary function of the system in the first place. 

     

    Then they better find a better 100% tool, because Rogue in Wow is accessible to a large panel of races since creation, and remained amongst the least played class. Other examples can be found easily throught games. The rare flake will be overplayed if it's an easy class that works fine with little reflexion.

    • 594 posts
    July 26, 2019 6:17 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Keno Monster said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

     

    Honestly race has little in common with popularity, that's a myth, in EQ druids were not much played until people discovered kiting and it became flooded with new druids from everywhere, and people kept their toon because they had a large variety of play including movement speed, kiting (quad), healing/offhealing and teleports. Comfortable and less technical classes are allways more popular because they are more accessible for the same results (or better), not the race/class matrix.

    Except that race/class restrictions are 100% a tool used by game designers to manipulate the class demographics. It is a primary function of the system in the first place. 

     

    Then they better find a better 100% tool, because Rogue in Wow is accessible to a large panel of races since creation, and remained amongst the least played class. Other examples can be found easily throught games. The rare flake will be overplayed if it's an easy class that works fine with little reflexion.

    This is a poor example Mauv, because the rogue was originally overplayed (due to the number of races available) it wasn't until later years that the devs severely hampered rogues in PvP (by adding diminishing returns - because they were so over played) and then allowing non-DPS classes to perform just as much DPS as the rogue, that it became less and less popular.  Blizzard did this with many classes many times throughout the history of WoW - this is where the phenomenon of FotM wheel (Flavor of the Month) originated and became a money generating tool thta Blizzard used to change race/class demographics, further prolonging player subscription - mathematically figured to be done just when player interest was dipping in certain aspects of the game.

    Race/Class matrix has everything to do with class balance/representation of neccessary roles (Warrior, Enchanter, and likely all healer roles will be needed).  Enchanter will be played regardless of race, and they need the warrior to be chosen "at least" close to as much Paladin and DL.

    Just my opinion having been actually involved in game development...

    • 594 posts
    July 26, 2019 6:29 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Humans are (in just about every single MMO) the MOST played race, often the second most isn't even close. 

    This is only the case in MMOs where the other options are monstrous or otherwise deformed races (to include short or big noses (Dwarf/Halfling).  This is never the case when there are other races that are more asthetically pleasing (Typically Elves or proportinate (not tolken) halflings).  In the rare case that cosmetics are not a reason for race choice in an MMO then available abilities (read: class) influences the player's choices -

    In summary, if human is a more popularly played race in any game, it is because the devs designed it that way due to other options available... the way it is set up now, humans will be the most popular race in PRotF because the devs have allowed them to be every race... likely because they want the highest population of players around the highly detailed Thronefast.

    • 1557 posts
    July 26, 2019 7:47 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    This is a poor example Mauv, because the rogue was originally overplayed (due to the number of races available) it wasn't until later years that the devs severely hampered rogues in PvP (by adding diminishing returns - because they were so over played) and then allowing non-DPS classes to perform just as much DPS as the rogue, that it became less and less popular.  Blizzard did this with many classes many times throughout the history of WoW - this is where the phenomenon of FotM wheel (Flavor of the Month) originated and became a money generating tool thta Blizzard used to change race/class demographics, further prolonging player subscription - mathematically figured to be done just when player interest was dipping in certain aspects of the game.

    Race/Class matrix has everything to do with class balance/representation of neccessary roles (Warrior, Enchanter, and likely all healer roles will be needed).  Enchanter will be played regardless of race, and they need the warrior to be chosen "at least" close to as much Paladin and DL.

    Just my opinion having been actually involved in game development...

     

    Of course it's not a poor example. You proved again in your own answer that the class race matrix is not representative of the popularity, that rogues were overplayed when over the top (Before normalization, with resilience and the removal of the "stunlock combo" of 10s withouth DR that sufficed to kill players in classic).

    Now they are underplayed because they have "nothing" usefull beside beeing a DPS class, no utility, no displacement, and since the world is easy even ungeared beeing stealthy adds nothing to the balance. Despite beeing still accessible to a large array of classes, they are now underplayed since Wotlk at least.

    You can try to control the flux of players by avaliability (even if for most, class > race), but in the end it's what you give to classes that will make them over or underplayed. Just like druids in EQ were.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at July 26, 2019 7:47 AM PDT