Forums » Pantheon Classes

Pullers!

    • 6 posts
    January 20, 2017 10:19 PM PST
    Pulling was far and away my favorite role in a group in eq1. I see monks and maybe dire lords could be fd pullers (gross speculation) since bard won't be in the first iteration of the game, will there be other core pull classes?
    • 2542 posts
    January 21, 2017 1:47 AM PST

    I imagine ranger will be pretty great at pulling as well. 

    • 185 posts
    January 21, 2017 3:33 AM PST

    I fondly remember my pulling days in muramite Proving Grounds and Riftseeker's Sanctum.  It was so much fun to be a bard. 

    Honestly, I really hated the idea of "feign death" pulling.  It's just so ridiculous to think an intelligent monster is going to stop chasing you if you play dead....it's even more ridiculous to think he'll keep doing it the second, third, fourth, fiftt, etc. time.

     

    • 1852 posts
    • 6 posts
    January 21, 2017 3:56 PM PST

    Maybe rangers will get a distracting shot lull or monks/rog will get a throw rock distraction


    This post was edited by Kilsin at January 23, 2017 4:48 PM PST
    • 131 posts
    January 22, 2017 3:59 PM PST

    I forgot what thread it was in, but somewhere the topic of "intended" and "unintended" behaviors was discussed, and FD pulling was one of those things that wasn't designed as such. FD splitting and single pulling was something that emerged from players figuring out the mechanics of the skill and how to take advantage of it. I believe the tenets of the game going back to the necessity to successfully CC mobs leads us to believe that FD splitting and single pulling isn't what they are going for. I certainly could be wrong, but I think we're going to be looking at multi-pull mobs with the expectation that a group be able to successfully CC the adds (mez, root, off-tank, etc)

     

    *edit* >> Ranger FD pulling was great... of course Rangers could only use their FD one time, then they needed a rez ;)


    This post was edited by Quintra at January 22, 2017 4:00 PM PST
    • 1237 posts
    January 23, 2017 9:47 AM PST

    It's an interesting conundrum.  What emergent play style will the developers support?

    AOE stun+damage groups.

    AOE CC groups.

    FD/Split pulling.

     

    AOE stun+AOE damage groups produce the highest reward for the highest risk.  Part of the tenets sure, but absolutely impacts all other groups & players in an area, negatively.  Causes massive social problems in-game.  But my oh my how the experience does flow.  Will be possible in pantheon if any mobs of any level are stunnable, and if one or more class gets one or more AOE stuns, and any class gets AOE attacks.

    Linked pulls & AOE CC groups are typical.  Normal, if you will, and what's been demonstrated so far.  Pull 5.  CC 5. Focus kill one at a time.  To some, incredibly boring, but safe, and makes CC a requirement, not an option.   Limits playstyles to content that can be mez'd.  If resists for yellow-red are too high, or if some targets are simply not CC'able (immune to snare, immune to root, immune to mez, immune to stun, summon) then that content is far less desirable for groups that want this play style.

    FD/Split pulling.  As mentioned, definitely not something that was intended, but now a normal part of EQ1, especially on some raid targets and chain pulling groups.  I hope feign death means that each monster on the feign death aggro list runs to the "body" and hits it once to make sure it's "dead" and such hits cannot be blocked, parried, absorbed, mitigated or in any way avoided, always hit, and always crit.   That means if you want to FD, that's fine, but you will still run the risk of dying, even to grey mobs.  It's not a 100% get-out-of-death-free card.  That should, if done correctly, prevent this from becoming a typical "pulling" behavior in Pantheon.

    ...

    Personally?  I'd prefer to see a luring, distracting, tempting mechanic rather than FD/Split pulling.  Why?  Because if designed and implemented correctly, any player could do it, and it adds fun, challenge, and innovation to the game.

    • 6 posts
    January 23, 2017 10:00 AM PST

    I imagine the devs understand the value of splitting but will probably implement it in an intentional way

    I also think that all forms will see their place, cc groups and single down will be a way as would split pulling mostly because when executed correctly both require coordination and teamwork which are the building blocks of why people enjoy grouping, I think marauding will reveal its self to be more rewarding as well since (I think I read) they intend each zone to be able to accommodate 100 people they will probably be massive


    This post was edited by Kilsin at January 23, 2017 4:49 PM PST
    • 177 posts
    January 24, 2017 9:42 AM PST

    vjek said:

    ...

    Personally?  I'd prefer to see a luring, distracting, tempting mechanic rather than FD/Split pulling.  Why?  Because if designed and implemented correctly, any player could do it, and it adds fun, challenge, and innovation to the game.

    Enjoyed your post, but do not agree with this specifically. Giving classes their own unique abilities that aren't available to other classes is highly necessary in a game that wants to encourage grouping. The greatest thing about EQ as far as pulling was concerned was not that several classes could do it. It was that there were distinct ways of pulling and each had their risks and rewards. Additionally, the way the class pulled really fit with the asthetic of the class... monks would FD-pull, druids would root, enchanters would lull/mez, warriors would just pull the whole damn camp (along with the second camp if available :D).

    Would really hate to see generic abilities given to all classes. I'm not even a fan of giving the same set of abilities to each role. For instance, in WoW they give tanks the same set of "tanking" abilities regardless of your class. I undestand why, I just don't agree with it and it really makes the classes feel generic. EQ2 did the same thing. Personally, I would like to see a class given abilities that fit its description/lore and let the player figure out how to best use them.

     

    • 6 posts
    January 24, 2017 9:53 AM PST
    I don't think he meant to give generic abilities. I think he only finds fd to be clunky and reliant on bugging mobs pathing which can be seen as immersion breaking.

    I think a distracting shot for rangers that dizzies "lulls" a mob to pull the mobs next to it alone or a skill where a rog single pulls with a skill that makes a stationary mobs come single to "check out that noise" or maybe a fire lord can instill an aoe petrify that works like harmony did to allow a single pull.

    This is all uncreative but I will miss manipulating assist agro lull and high sun on my bard and I hope that there will be a class that can specialize in pulling as a form of cc

    • 1237 posts
    January 24, 2017 10:03 AM PST

    FD pulling was not an intended mechanic.  CC'ing isn't the same as pulling imo, so I was doing my best to stay on topic with the thread. however..

    All players can do tradeskills.
    All players can do damage, no matter how little.
    All players can swim, climb on walls, and possibly more.
    So, those "generic abilities" at least, have been given to all classes in Pantheon, so far.

    "being an FD puller" is not a role defined as part of the Quaternary (Tank, DPS, Healer, CC).  You might try to argue it's kind of like CC, but it's not really, because the intent of FD pulling is specifically to avoid having to CC at all.  The ideal FD pull brings a single.  Or at the very least, less than a full group, room, or intended encounter.  Clerics, Bards and Paladins could pacify, too.
    Giving everyone the ability to create a crude sling/slingshot via tradeskills that creates a distracting noise that might halt a patroller for a few seconds is not removing a class role.

    It's just adding a benefit to tradeskills.

    My impression to date is that pulling in the EQ1 sense will not be possible in Pantheon outside of targets that would normally be single anyway, if they were away from social aggro range. 
    Or put another way, it seems there will be hard linked encounters, and you will never be able to break them up.  You want to fight 1 of those 5?  Nope, you fight all 5 or none.  If one is aggro, they all are, unless mez'd, rooted, or otherwise directly interacted with.

    In short, I hope VR does everything in their power to prevent FD pulling or anything remotely like it, and sticks with focusing on tradeskills and the Quaternary roles.  But, if they put it in, oh well, I guess trivialized content will be the order of the day, again.

    • 6 posts
    January 24, 2017 10:15 AM PST
    I have to respectfully disagree. Pulling is just front end cc (cc being crowd control which would be synonymous with npc manipulation) and as such part of your quartnary. A perfect chain and maintenance of it (to me) can feel like music. Without creative pulling we will see enchanters as mandatory unless they come up with some other form of mezzing which is just as trivializing. I'll agree that monk fd pulling isn't particularly elegant but bard pulling and similar elements are quite exciting when played on the edge
    • 4 posts
    February 7, 2017 7:23 PM PST

    I tend to agree with the above that pulling is a form of front end CC, even if all you're doing with a pull is moving an encounter from a place that's dangerous to one that isn't or how control how much social aggro you cause.  The 'best' thing I think, if you think monk pulling was a problem because only monks did it, would be for multiple character classes to be able to split pull things, like rogues with deception, rangers with special archery shots, or wizards by teleporting an enemy target away from its friends.

    • 39 posts
    February 8, 2017 2:20 AM PST

    Goin back to EQ1, it was the monks role to keep mobs coming at a steady flow to the group to keep the action rolling and prevent repops. It was also his responsibility to not wipe the group and keep things within the groups work level. If mobs are linked that would suck IMHO because I have seen and done some amazing pulls in the past that makes the group say " holy #|~+* that rocked"

     

    That being said, I'm sure with the experience that is creating this game, I'm sure they've thought this through (hope so anyway!!) and will make a best judgement call. I for one am all for splitting, to me it adds another piece that takes skill (an art) to do. Each class has an art / skill they need to master to be successful, monk = pulling = dps....to me that's his role.

     

    Just my two copper!!

     

    Ogee

    • 1825 posts
    February 8, 2017 6:17 PM PST

    And because we know next to nothing at all about the the abilities of all the classes, nearly nothing about spells lines as well there can be no agreement whatsoever on this thread.

    To say that FD pulling isn't crowd control is, well, totally wrong.  The FD puller is controlling which mobs make it back to the group through use of class abilities and game mechanics.  It is no different than a caster using a lull or other spell to minimize or eliminate aggro-chaining.

    There will be emergent gameplay, and yes, everyone will first try out what they knew from EQ1 and other games even if the fundamentals of the spells or abilities are not exactly the same.  People will experiment until they find a solution that is to their benefit.  We will all be surprised what the players will come up with.

    And just because you give someone an ability does not mean they will ever truly understand all the mechanics around it so they can truly master the application of the ability.

    • 105 posts
    March 3, 2017 8:11 AM PST

    vjek said:

     

    "being an FD puller" is not a role defined as part of the Quaternary (Tank, DPS, Healer, CC).  You might try to argue it's kind of like CC, but it's not really, because the intent of FD pulling is specifically to avoid having to CC at all.  

     

    If FD pulling isn't a form of crowd control, because you avoid having a crowd, what would you call Lull, or Harmony? Are they, too, not a form of crowd control? It's simply a matter of controlling that crowd before bringing it to your group, as opposed to bringing the crowd to the group and then controlling it.

    • 73 posts
    March 8, 2017 8:01 PM PST

    vjek said:

    FD pulling was not an intended mechanic.  CC'ing isn't the same as pulling imo, so I was doing my best to stay on topic with the thread. however..

    All players can do tradeskills.
    All players can do damage, no matter how little.
    All players can swim, climb on walls, and possibly more.
    So, those "generic abilities" at least, have been given to all classes in Pantheon, so far.

    "being an FD puller" is not a role defined as part of the Quaternary (Tank, DPS, Healer, CC).  You might try to argue it's kind of like CC, but it's not really, because the intent of FD pulling is specifically to avoid having to CC at all.  The ideal FD pull brings a single.  Or at the very least, less than a full group, room, or intended encounter.  Clerics, Bards and Paladins could pacify, too.
    Giving everyone the ability to create a crude sling/slingshot via tradeskills that creates a distracting noise that might halt a patroller for a few seconds is not removing a class role.

    It's just adding a benefit to tradeskills.

    My impression to date is that pulling in the EQ1 sense will not be possible in Pantheon outside of targets that would normally be single anyway, if they were away from social aggro range. 
    Or put another way, it seems there will be hard linked encounters, and you will never be able to break them up.  You want to fight 1 of those 5?  Nope, you fight all 5 or none.  If one is aggro, they all are, unless mez'd, rooted, or otherwise directly interacted with.

    In short, I hope VR does everything in their power to prevent FD pulling or anything remotely like it, and sticks with focusing on tradeskills and the Quaternary roles.  But, if they put it in, oh well, I guess trivialized content will be the order of the day, again.

     

     

    CC isnt the same as pulling? I beg to disagree! Clearly you've never played a monk!

     

    You are in essence deciding what roles a monk is going to do and frankly that is rather rude of you. I am kinda glad that the devs have decided otherwise.

     

    From dev interview:

    http://pantheonriseofthefallen.gamepedia.com/Gamepedia_Developer_Interview

     

    Salim Grant Said;

     

    "a Froglok's about to cast Ice Comet and I can use my stun to stop him or an Enchanter has the ability to do an AE mez and then single target mez or lull. We want to bring that back. The notion of pulling a mob – you know, Feign Death – pulling things like that. Those things are some of the coolest things about EverQuest and those things are gone.

     

    From the FAQ:

    1.2.1 So then tell us more about the concept of ‘pulling’ and ‘crowd control’?

    In many cases, we want to bring back the gameplay of pulling and splitting packs of mobs. To facilitate this, players will need tools that make this possible. These tools will come in the form of spells and abilities that allow you to ‘lull’ or ‘pacify’ the mob. In cases where you must deal with more than one mob some classes will have the ability to cast spells like ‘root’, ‘snare’, ‘mesmerize’, etc.

     

    If you think FD splitting is just a matter of hitting a button, i suggest you go give it a try on Everquest and come back once you've experience it. Pulling involve knowing about pathing, about your mobs that you are pulling (are they gona cast on you while you FD? and break your FD?) If anything FD pulling is somewhat more complex than your normal CC. As an enchanter, it's pretty simple. I mezz things and i have to make sure i mezz before the spell end again! It doesnt mean it is easy but you have a lot less to deal with then if you are fd pulling.

     

    Funny you say: I hope they stick to Quarternary roles and you include CC in that role. Yet you dont want FD pulling... Seems to me like you are jaded against FD pulling. I mean CC is ok, but not monk CC? So is it more of a case that you dont want monk pulling/fd pulling but you're ok with Enchanter CC or similar?... hmm yeah.... ok 

     

     

    So thank you for suggesting what we as monk can or cant do but it isnt the case and i respectfully am not sorry to burst your bubble!