I'm actually somewhat worried after reading more responses from Kilsan the last few days that the devs are either listening to much to such a minor group of people who think it would be fun to have a game that makes you play blinded folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth or some of them really think some of these bad ideas really are good ideas, even in this type of game. I digress though since alpha and beta both haven't happened which I would assume will open the doors to iron out some of this stuff and players being able to have a hands on experience.
Eliseus said:I'm actually somewhat worried after reading more responses from Kilsan the last few days that the devs are either listening to much to such a minor group of people who think it would be fun to have a game that makes you play blinded folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth or some of them really think some of these bad ideas really are good ideas, even in this type of game. I digress though since alpha and beta both haven't happened which I would assume will open the doors to iron out some of this stuff and players being able to have a hands on experience.
I'm not sure I'm following you.
Can you give an example?
Eliseus said:I'm actually somewhat worried after reading more responses from Kilsan the last few days that the devs are either listening to much to such a minor group of people who think it would be fun to have a game that makes you play blinded folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth or some of them really think some of these bad ideas really are good ideas, even in this type of game. I digress though since alpha and beta both haven't happened which I would assume will open the doors to iron out some of this stuff and players being able to have a hands on experience.
Eliseus, I appreciate your concern, but remember that Brad has been through this before and has the main idea of how the processes of the game will be. It never, ever hurts for people to brainstorm, even if some ideas are far-fetched, ridiculous or even impossible. If someone suggests we have hoverboards in the game, and 25 people all have a good time by going along with the idea and say how they would use their hoverboards, it doesn't mean we really want hoverboards in the game. It's just a fun bit of killing time while we're waiting to see what's really in the game. And even if the original suggestion for hoverboards was completely serious, the devs aren't going to blindly look at that conversation and go, "Wow, look at all the positive support! We need hoverboards!" (Or whatever far-fetched idea someone may have.) Remember to allow everyone here to have their ideas and opinions, even if they're bad ones. I trust that VR won't stray from their vision of the game, but I'm hoping they may find one or two diamonds in the rough that they didn't think about with all the conversations.
Eliseus said (taken way WAY out of context):
play blind-folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth
I understand your concern, but your hilarious hyperbole has taken my hippocampus hostage.
You made my day.
A very good reminder. I personally haven't seen a whole lot of people threatening to not play the game if they don't get their way - I think we have an awesome community, but there is definitely a ton of differing/strong opinions. And that's a good thing, but it is crucial to remain open-minded. A lot of good ideas get shut down too quickly simply because it's not what others are used to. Keeping emotions and nostalgia(!) out of it is always a good thing. Fortunately, VR is in a unique position to be able to stand strong under pressure. They made it very clear from Day 1 that they were not trying to make a game that is all things to all people. So if someone says they're gonna go play some other game if Pantheon does not have a certain feature, I would probably respond with, "be my guest." Pantheon has already received enough positive feedback from the streams and such that they have literally no reason to buckle or stray from their foundation and tenets. This type of open development/crowdfunding is relatively uncharted territory in the game development world. It has some cons, for example, people getting restless and infighting as a result of boredom. But that's human nature and in the end, it's relatively harmless. Overall, I'd say VR is absolutely doing it right. I have never seen a game company so dedicated to quality.
Eliseus said:I'm actually somewhat worried after reading more responses from Kilsan the last few days that the devs are either listening to much to such a minor group of people who think it would be fun to have a game that makes you play blinded folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth or some of them really think some of these bad ideas really are good ideas, even in this type of game. I digress though since alpha and beta both haven't happened which I would assume will open the doors to iron out some of this stuff and players being able to have a hands on experience.
I'm also curious what exactly this means.
Eliseus said:I'm actually somewhat worried after reading more responses from Kilsan the last few days that the devs are either listening to much to such a minor group of people who think it would be fun to have a game that makes you play blinded folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth or some of them really think some of these bad ideas really are good ideas, even in this type of game. I digress though since alpha and beta both haven't happened which I would assume will open the doors to iron out some of this stuff and players being able to have a hands on experience.
Why would you be worried? I haven't budged on the team's position to follow our vision and tenets, it never changes, only you folks make assumptions and get worried over nothing when you read someone else's opinion, ours never changes ;)
Portalgun said:Kilsin, you are awesome.
Never leave VRI please?
I agree! He does a fantastic job keeping things in perspective!!
Lghtngfan, excellent story/post. It was humbling to read. I am sure it cooled off more than one hot head. (including myself)
For myself, I am glad for people's ideas and criticisms. They help me (and hopefully Pantheon in this case) become stronger. I think that many people are passionate about the game, and are putting more into this forum than they even realize or intended. Of the people that have said things like: "If I can't have a dragon shaped helmet, I am out of there" or "It's pink bank slots for me, or I quit", I think many of them are just passisonate. They really want this game to go well. For many, this is their first time actually writing their ideas about a video game in a forum where the devs actually pay attention. They are excited!
Have hope. Of those people, how many do you really think will quit? My guess, not too many. There will be some. As Gnog stated above, there are a number of truly hot button issues out there. I don't doubt that a few of them will actually be game-breakers. That said, take what these people say with a grain of salt. No one has quit the game, until they actually do. Lol, and if it's anything like EQ, I will quit six times and keep coming back anyway.
Thanks for the write Lghtngfan! It was a breath of fresh air.
RumorHasit said:Portalgun said:Kilsin, you are awesome.
Never leave VRI please?
I agree! He does a fantastic job keeping things in perspective!!
Agreed, he has a very tough job but he does it better than anyone I've seen. And I've seen a lot.
Sadly, a lot of people just assume that bad things that they are used to happening in past games will also happen in this game. They let their fears and emotions influence the way they interpret things they read, and can eventually develop some extremely unrealistic perceptions, just to try to confirm their suspicions. Fortunately, from an objective standpoint, it's clear that VR is unwavering.
The thing about Pantheon is that we already saw the core combat of the game. There's no way VR would scratch it all and swap it with something completely different. So, for me I'm ALREADY sold. Would I ask/speak about what I'd like to see to make pantheon perfect for ME? yes, I'm not going to bullshit anyone. These things stirs discussion and is always positive. Though I trust the team in VR in everything and honestly I haven't heard a single word that makes me disappointed. I almost always agree with their answerss and wave my fist screaming YES! I know I'm going to enjoy Pantheon just like I knew I was going to enjoy Hex: Shards of Fate when I backed it up because they showed me the basic mechanics of the game and since I'm a big fan of MTG I KNEW I was going to love Hex (and I DID, playing it DAILY since its alpha). This is going to be the same for Pantheon, there are no surprisies.
VR are not creating a dream or a "fantasy" or a vision that no body tried before and throw random words and hopefully we go wild with our imagination like No Man's Sky. VR are creating a game where most of the mechanics and design philosophies were proven to work. There's not "Is this going to work?" kind of hesitation. We all know what's going on and we all agree that it's ABOUT FREAKING TIME. :)
Saying this I also know Pantheon is going to throw its own unique and new mechanics and expand upon what worked before which is GREAT. Things like the Atmosphere, Perception System and Climbing. These things are great and I can't wait to see more of it.
Eliseus said:I'm actually somewhat worried after reading more responses from Kilsan the last few days that the devs are either listening to much to such a minor group of people who think it would be fun to have a game that makes you play blinded folded with only half a keyboard and 1 speaker while giving birth or some of them really think some of these bad ideas really are good ideas, even in this type of game. I digress though since alpha and beta both haven't happened which I would assume will open the doors to iron out some of this stuff and players being able to have a hands on experience.
Holy cow..what game was that? I wanna play it! :D (kidding)
Thanks again everyone for the kind words. One of the worst fears we as people have to deal with is the fear of the unknown. It panicks us more than anything because our minds can play horrible tricks on us thinking of the worst possible outcomes. Those same minds can imagine the best possible outcomes too. Like Kilsin said, just because a community manager or a dev has a bit of fun and participates in a thread about having motorcycle shops in Pantheon*, it doesn't mean that there are going to be motorcycle shops in Pantheon.
It also dawned on me that I didn't give an example of one of the unreasonable things some of the more vocal players of SCL did to cause the downfall of the company. I'm giving this as an example because it's something I can easily equate to Pantheon. We already know bards are not going to be available at launch for Pantheon. VR is a small team and they had to make a choice of which classes they could reasonably expect to have ready for a launch and still have a solid balance of classes to make the game playable.
N-Space did the same thing when SCL launched when it came to the mobs that players could populate their dungeons with. They were a very small team, and they had to pick and choose which mobs they would create to start. One of the mobs they left out to start were trolls. To some people, this was the worst crime against D&D humanity that could have ever been concocted. "It's not D&D if it doesn't have trolls!!"
Now granted, trolls are a major enemy in D&D. However, they're not the only one. And, it's not like N-Space said the game would never have trolls. They just had to concentrate on the mobs they needed for the game's first campaign, have those mobs available for the dungeon creator, and then get to working on other mobs for the next game update. But this wasn't good enough for some people. They thought the game was ruined because they didn't have trolls. I tried to reason with one of these people on the boards:
"How can it be D&D if it doesn't have trolls?"
"Can't you make a dungeon crawl that doesn't have trolls?"
"NO! My story is based around trolls."
"Can't you use a different mob and label them as a troll?"
"NO! I have to have real trolls! It's not the same!"
"When you play pen-and-paper D&D in your living room, you don't have 'real trolls' either. It's all your imagination. Can't you just imagine a different mob as trolls?"
"It's not D&D if it doesn't have trolls!"
If this was just an internal conversation on the boards, it would have been fine. The problem was these few people who were this unreasonable went to other gaming forums, such as Steam, and told everyone that the game was't really D&D. As I said, all it takes is for a couple of people to blow something out of proportion, and it can ruin it for everyone.
Again, I'm really glad everyone is willing to at least try to have an open mind about Pantheon and the way it's being developed. That's all I ask.
* -- Not an actual thread
You make me appreciate getting older and caring less and less about what the trolls, the selfish, or the confrontational types have to say in their posts.
I've probably seen all of the same sorts of whining, demands, and general ridiculousness you speak of, Lghtngfan, but I simply cannot bring myself to care about them, and certainly not any imagined repercussions their opinions might have on the game that the rest of us patient, hopeful, open minded, content fans are waiting for with vibrant anticipation. Their juvenile mutterings go in one ear and out the other. Some might even get a chuckle if they try to tow a line. But overall, I think the vast majority of the generation that cut thier teeth on EQ and aren't so full of themselves as to threaten dev teams with 50 dollars, are above these petty malformations.
A shame with N-space and all, but that story sounded like an exception to the rule. Besides, worry is a misuse of our imaginations.
@Lghtngfan
I can appreciate the sentiment of this post, but I feel there may be some misconceptions within it. In your post you seem to be drawing the conclusion that the events taking place here on the boards are similar to a previous forums and therefore could suffer the same fate for the company.
You state “But then as the timelines stretched and people were left wanting more, the complaints started.” And then go on to state “But what started the ultimate downfall of the game and N-Space itself was the unrealistic expectations from some D&D fans”. I feel your under the assumption that the fans are what caused the downfall of the company “N-Space”.
You seem to be implying that the fans are responsible for the outcome of this company believing as you stated “But in the world of the Internet, it only takes one lone voice to start a rumor, then a panic, then a witch-hunt, ending in the deafinging silence of an empty space.”
I disagree completely with this view.
The consumers are never responsible for the outcome of any company, it is the company's responsibility to understand the desires of their target audience. The company in question “N-Space”, by your own words failed to deliver on their deadlines leaving their customers unhappy, that eventually lead to the failure of the company, not a result of “rumors” that in this day an age are quickly debunked Via the Internet.
The Internet may have the capacity to spread rumors faster than before, but lets not forget that people today are not reliant on the local grapevine either, and any concerns the consumers have can be addressed immediately though the forums or social media if the company so chooses.
Id also like to point out that while a negative atmosphere can have an impact on the company's image, the reverse of “white knighting” is equally true, because when a developer(in this case) only hears positive things about their creations because their fans can see no wrong, they don’t make adjustments based on feedback, since they really didn't get any.
I think its important for both parties, fans and developers to find a middle ground, and this starts by first having a place of discussion and just as importantly, proper management from the developers or customer representatives. Proper management means not throwing up a forums as a sinkhole for complaints, but constant attention to the concerns of the fans, while directing discussion on topics of importance for the company.
Ive spent a lot of time with my own creations, Writing stories, Drawing, and producing videos for my channel, so I can tell you that its very easy for a creator to get trapped by the vision inside their head, that they fail to see it from another perspective. It’s imperative that we give honest feedback to the developers if we expect to help them create the best game the can. The developers must have that feedback unfiltered by our feelings towards them or the game, and we should trust that the can filter out the ideas or opinions that do not support their vision.
In your post you mention fans who state they wont play if this or that feature is in the game or not. I feel its important to give developers that information, provided its not emotionally charged. I personally would find it very difficult to play pantheon if they decided to allow players to join multiple guilds the way ESO did because I feel if goes against what I believe to be the focus of pantheon, a group centric game.