Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Favourite Way to Acquire Spells/Abilities?

    • 219 posts
    January 16, 2017 1:59 PM PST

    Shucklighter said:

    I also agree with UnknownQuantity and think it's appealing to have spells be expensive so that you often have to choose only some of the spells that you are eligible for as you level.

     

    They would have to add in a mechanic to raise spell prices based on inflation. The Pantheon economy would negate the spell price over time if it remained static.

    • 284 posts
    January 16, 2017 2:23 PM PST

    Two ways stand out to me from FFXI that I challenge the Pantheon devs to surpass. 

    The first is how Summoners earned their summons. Know here that all summoner skills were orders you gave pets, and each pet had their own skills. When you unlocked the job all you had was Carbuncle, a servicable but otherwise pretty weak summon. The other summons were obtained from beating them one vs one at level 20 (with much higher level group fights), and a few were obtained at max level. Since you could job change, you could fight all the higher level summons and be a stone cold badass from level 1, or you could level summoner and earn them. Missing the endgame summons was not a huge deal until you got to endgame, but if you had them especially early it was a huge achievement. It helped that each summon was an actual character, not like "Earth Spirit" or whatever.

    The second is Blue Magic, which I actually imagine is a basis for how some skills will be obtained in Pantheon already. Anyone who has played an FF game knows that Blue Magic spells are actually monster skills that you must see or be hit with to learn. Take a look at this monstrosity: The Blue Magic Hunting Grounds. It's beautiful, and when I finally resub to FFXI to catch the final story missions I plan to hunt them all because it was fun and each spell presented a unique challenge.

     

    • 138 posts
    January 16, 2017 2:42 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    There is a nice mix here and most of you agree with a good mix of many options, on Facebook a tonne of people want a mix except are bitterly against having it auto update! :D

    . This is probably the category I am in... I like a good mix and prefer it not to auto update... 

    • 234 posts
    January 16, 2017 4:05 PM PST

    Mixed as stated above. I do not believe Auto Updated spells belong in an RPG myself.

    EQ did it pretty well IMO but could be improved upon. 

    I liked how EQ didn't just reveal what spells you got immediatly. Before the WIKIs made it easy, it left a bit of mystery in the world, the thought that there might be some other spell I wasn't aware of may be waiting to be found, lingered in the back of my mind as I played.  

    The EQ system could be expanded on so that the player would be prompted to visit their trainer/spell vendor and get all the basic ones for their level but while there, additional information might come to light which would lead to them to explore elsewhere and discover more. 

    EG:
    Your trainer tells you, "Hey there [Player Name], I see you bought the spell of Levitation. I heard about a similar spell recently, have you heard about the spell called [Dead Man Floating]?"
    /Say What about Dead Man Floating?

    Your tainer responds, "Well, [Player Name], rumor has it that this spell will allow the caster to levitate for a very long time, it's also rumored that several [other affects] may be granted."
    /Say What other affects? 

    Your trainer continues, "According to a trader I know from [Neriak], some of the Necromancers from that area appeared to see my friend as he traveled under a cloack of Invisibility.  It's rumored that this spell may have [other beneficial qualities] to it yet undiscovered."

    /Say Where is Neriak?
    Your tainer replies, "Well if you just take that there boat and pass through Freeport and continue to the North a bit you should stumble across it."

    /Say what other beneficial qualities?
    Your trainer replies, "I'm not really sure, its just a rumor, if your really interested you may want to seek out [Xelha Nevagon] in Freeport, she may have more information."

    /Say I wish to find Xelha Nevagon
    Your trainer says, "Then take this pendandt and give it to her so she will know that I have sent you.  May your quest for knowledge be succesful."

    So you get the idea, they should be discoverable.  Some more easily discovered than others, perhaps some as pure easter eggs that could potentially go undiscovered for years.

    I do want to see spell scrolls that you can cary around and trade or save for later to scribe in the field.

    My 2cp

    -Az

     

     

    • 7 posts
    January 16, 2017 4:06 PM PST
    I remember working so hard to get the money to upgrade my spells it felt like an achievement when I finally dinged and could use the scrolls I saved in my bags
    • 780 posts
    January 16, 2017 4:14 PM PST

    Pyde said:

    Shucklighter said:

    I also agree with UnknownQuantity and think it's appealing to have spells be expensive so that you often have to choose only some of the spells that you are eligible for as you level.

     

    They would have to add in a mechanic to raise spell prices based on inflation. The Pantheon economy would negate the spell price over time if it remained static.

     

    I agree that it wouldn't be sustainable, but at least set it up so that true newbies can experience it that way for the first circle or two.

    • 151 posts
    January 16, 2017 4:45 PM PST

    I would love a mix of trainers and having to go out in the world to find them in various ways and any other method.
    What I am less a fan of is having "ranks" of spells like Frostbolt (Rank 1), Frostbolt (Rank 2), Frostbolt (Rank 10), that you learn on different levels.

    • 2419 posts
    January 16, 2017 4:57 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    What is your favourite way to acquire spells and abilities? Is it via a trainer, out in the world, mob drops, automatically updated spell book, crafted or some other way?

    As it has been stated many times here, varied methods is best.  Some vendor, some quested, some dropped.  It should not just be that low level spells are on vendors, then higher level spells are either quested or dropped.  It should vary throughout all levels.

    What I never want to see is what we saw in EQ1 Gates of Discord onward, that being different qualities (ranks) of a spell.  That was the one of the stupidest design decisions by SoE because what it did was not just encourage farming, but now requiring it.  Why?  Because having the Rank III verions of spells did make a difference when facing content.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at January 16, 2017 4:58 PM PST
    • 1281 posts
    January 16, 2017 5:08 PM PST

    I like a few different types of abilities. 1) Innate type abilities that do not require training, e.g. Dark Vision. 2) Skills that require purchase/training e.g. weapons and defensive skills, some of which are only available from rare or hard to find NPCs, 3) Spells/Skills that come in scroll/book format that you consume or turn in to lear an ability.

    • 58 posts
    January 16, 2017 7:16 PM PST
    Honestly I'd like to see the mundane spells the generic spells be available from local Township Mages or clerics. But if you want to take a spell and research it comparing with other spells seek out other clerics and Mages from other towns they might have a different version of the spell you have already learn that gives out a bit different effects and as you learn more and more you could develope your own version of the spell where you could get the best attributes from the other spells to make it your own.

    Of course there should be other ways to learn if your perception skill is strong you could identify spells from npcs and as you fight the same type of npc over and over example a shaman orc is casting a specific spell that no one knows but as you keep fighting the same type of orc shaman you could slowly learn this spell if you are a shaman.
    • 1399 posts
    January 16, 2017 8:28 PM PST

    Definitely a mix,

    Some bought, Some quested, Some we need to travel across the world to other noob areas to obtain, some drop, some multiple ways to on get the same spell. I would really like to see Research brought back for some as well.

    I would like to see some avalable from multiple sources, like our main spells could

    1) the spell itself random drop from a raid boss (if you were a raider) or

    2) It could be Researched with a rare drop rune from a named mob(if you choose to camp) or

    3) ultra rare drop from any random noobie mob creating a reason to go back to noob areas and dumpster dive for that one noob that dident know what he had. (Would have to be so rare it would not be worth the high level camping the noob zone)

    THIS is what I'm talking about when I say I hope Pantheon is about building our Charrictor, not playing Barbi and Ken dress up.... more than goofy transformer gear, obtaining our spells and abilities should be a bigger part of it than our britches or new shoes (don't tell my wife i said that about new shoes!).  You want to slow people down from leveling?

    Nobody's going to be rushing to lvl30, if they dont yet have there main lvl25 spells.

     

    • 58 posts
    January 16, 2017 8:49 PM PST

    Beginner Tier = Trainer/Merchant

    Middle Tier = Craftable/Drops

    Expert Tier = Craftable - Rare Harvest/Mob/Chest Drop/Quest

    I like the above. I'm good with harder methods for some gear.  Locking out the skill/spell altogether behind  lengthy camping of named or grinding of areas hoping for that rare drop is silly.  I liked the way EQ2 did at launch I had to work for the rare harvestibles or instance drops to get squared away for raids.  This also lets those of a more casual persuasion see meaningful power gains even if they can't play as much.

     

    My two cents

    • 93 posts
    January 16, 2017 9:04 PM PST

    I agree with the sentiment in having a mix of ways to acquire new abilities/spells.  I do like Dalinsia's idea about ancient magic, great idea.  Just adds richness and depth to the world and would really connect the character with the world.

    I think trainers should be the main go to for obtaining the new spells when you progress to your next level of expertise.  Mob drops, research, craftin, exploration etc could be all included.

    It could be that trainers will give you all spells so that even if you're not a 'raider' you can still get that spell but the raider could end up obtaining an artifact or some object that upgrades a spell due to conquering harder content.  I know with saying this some will think that it is unfair and that versions of a spell should not be locked behind raid content, at least that is an opinion I've seen in other more solo friendly mmos.  For the more solo inclined players (I know Pantheon is group centric :-P ) then there could be another path for them to do extensive research to gain the same tier of spell.

    Options and variety, but not at the detriment of diluting content.

    Lastly, no to auto update.

    *salute*

    Edit:  Just a thought regarding the progeny system, perhaps if you retire a character one of the benefits for your new character would be an enhancement to a certain school of spells that gets stronger as you level.

    ~~~ <()> ~~~
    Valor and virtue ride with me, my blade defends the helpless,
    my might upholds the weak, my words speak only truth,
    my wrath undoes the wicked!
    <~ Vaultarn Stormborn ~>




    This post was edited by Vaultarn at January 16, 2017 9:06 PM PST
    • 8 posts
    January 16, 2017 9:24 PM PST

    I feel as though the skills you learn as you level up should only be the "basic" skills. You know, skills that would help you just enough to get by. For more effective and involved skills, I feel more work and effort should be required.... weather it be from quest rewards or completing certain achievements.

    I don't think putting trainers around the world would be much of a challenge. Soon enough, people will note their locations, that information will spread and the novelty will disappear rather quickly. The only way I can think of to add SOME fun to this idea is to make these trainers not static and change their whereabouts quite often and in a random way. Perhaps you can read about all of these trainers somewhere in a book that can be found.  This book could gives hints as to the types of locations these NPCs like to train in. For example, perhaps in this book, or "tome", one trainer is described as an individual who constantly strives to further strengthen him or herself in the rockiest of terrains. As a result, the player could search any areas within Terminus that contain very rocky terrain. Multiple areas with rocky terrain will exist in Terminus I am sure, so this would give the player incentive to explore all the rocky areas for this trainer. After every 24 hours or what have you, the trainer could either remain, or change locations. Again, I am certain that even if these trainers were given multiple locations and paths, they would eventually all be noted down and shared. It does, however, add more depth to the idea and may be interesting to see how and if it works.

    One method I found quite interesting is from a suggestion I found earlier, and that is to learn certain abilities from monsters/enemies by physical contact. To expand on this idea, what if a player had a new skill cast on them from an enemy and then got a prompt stating something like "You gain more insight on the 'X' ability used on you".  This ability could have to be used on you a certain amount of times before you could eventually obtain the skill itself.

    I do not like the idea of skills dropping from monsters, no matter how epic the monster is. I do, however, like the idea of having PIECES of skills dropped from monsters so that you could craft and complete the skill yourself. Simply dropping the skill, ready to go, can deprive the player of a sense of joy and accomplishment that could otherwise be gained from discovering all the required "scrolls" or "tome pages" necessary to eventually craft and learn the skill themselves. My belief is that if there is any way to enhance a player's sense of accomplishment, it should at least be explored and tested. Let's say there is an ability called "Heavy Lifting" you can only learn from monsters, which could increase your ability to carry more weight in your inventory for a certain amount of time. The "tome pages" of this skill could only be found on monsters that are heavy-set, bulky, and muscular. The odds of these pages dropping would of course be very very low, but these odds could be increased significantly on bosses, much like the boss shown at the end of the December livestream. If you eventually gain duplicate pages, you could trade with other players who have the pieces you need.

    Looking forward to see what other suggestions folks bring forward :)

    • 780 posts
    January 17, 2017 5:23 AM PST

    I think Dangoss has some good ideas in the post above.  Maybe you could have it so some rare spells and abilities are learned from rare spawn trainers spread throughout the world.  Definitely appeals to my desire to camp things, but I guess this idea won't appeal to many.  Haha.  I also think the idea of having skills and abilities be discovered by seeing NPCs use them is intriguing.

    • 4 posts
    January 17, 2017 8:52 AM PST

    Store-bought spells can be a lower variety of the ones you quest for. Everyone can get a low level nuke, but to be l33t, you need to do the quest and nuke like a pro.

    Back in the old, old EQ, trolls could not even understand dark elves. They had to group and practice. It was fun learning new languages. I believe spells are too easy to get. I also believe that the majority of spells should not be too hard to get either. It is crazy to have to be 50 to get a level 35 spell. There is also a factor of using the spell. If your divination is 1 and you are trying to use a high level group invis spell, it should nearly always fizzle until your Div is higher. Also, if your Div is maxed out, a low level invis spell should never fizzle. (same with crafting). 

    So to answer the question, I like the idea of questing for spells, but you should be able to complete the quest before you are the level to use it. That way, when you are with a group and you level, you can already have the spell on you. It is a work of character development. If you don't work on it, all you get are the lower store bought spells.

     

    • 8 posts
    January 17, 2017 1:56 PM PST

    High level/unique abilities i would like to find written down on scrolls or books found on tables/bookshelves in the darkest deepest dungeons

    • 1399 posts
    January 17, 2017 2:43 PM PST

    brewmaj said:

    Store-bought spells can be a lower variety of the ones you quest for. Everyone can get a low level nuke, but to be l33t, you need to do the quest and nuke like a pro.

    Back in the old, old EQ, trolls could not even understand dark elves. They had to group and practice. It was fun learning new languages. I believe spells are too easy to get. I also believe that the majority of spells should not be too hard to get either. It is crazy to have to be 50 to get a level 35 spell. There is also a factor of using the spell. If your divination is 1 and you are trying to use a high level group invis spell, it should nearly always fizzle until your Div is higher. Also, if your Div is maxed out, a low level invis spell should never fizzle. (same with crafting). 

    So to answer the question, I like the idea of questing for spells, but you should be able to complete the quest before you are the level to use it. That way, when you are with a group and you level, you can already have the spell on you. It is a work of character development. If you don't work on it, all you get are the lower store bought spells.

     

    This is a game planed for groups. If you try to solo, you probably will need to be 15 levels higher. What is crazy would be to reduce it to a solo effort in a group game.

    • 432 posts
    January 17, 2017 3:49 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    What is your favourite way to acquire spells and abilities? Is it via a trainer, out in the world, mob drops, automatically updated spell book, crafted or some other way?

     

    When I pick up a fighting game I know there are combo's and hidden exploits and things to 'learn'. Each character has a meta-game to them (a way you play)

    I naturally have fun learning things by myself through experimentation or massive repetition with slight variance. A system which can reward that style would be fun. But to be honest, the quickest way to learn something is to be taught by somebody else and then practice till its 'perfect'. Or watch somebody perform and try to emulate.

     

    I know that doesn't perfectly translate over but I wanted to see if perhaps that might spark some conversation. Though at this late in development I think being less wishy-washy about what I want is better. That being said if I had to pick I would pick 3 at once.

     

    1) Automatic updating spell book

    2) Out in the world

    3) Mob drops

     

    I picked three because I think all three of these entertwine to make a GREAT leveling experience for any class. If each class has a very few number of spells which will naturally appear as you progress that will enable you to continue on to be useful as a tank, damage dealer, CC, or healer. But in order for you to become even better you will have to explore the world to discover hidden places that may be guarded by dangerous foes or maybe out in the open but hard to aquire through climbing or difficult climate. And of course ... big scary mobs that you need your group to help you defeat. 

     

    So to be a little more clear

     

    Automatic updating spell book would only update with very few spells (i'm talking 2 or 3). Let leveling 'mean' something with an aquisition of something strong, but players should know only through exploration and defeating challenges with your friends will you unlock your true potential.

     

    Example: 

    The Cleric gets to lvl 12 and gains the spells 'Greater Heal' & 'Greater Smite'. This will enable the healer to continue to be a decent healer and also defeat monsters. The spells that the Cleric is missing out on are as follows.

    Regeneration - Heal over Time

    Spirit of The Guardian - An HP buff

    Lights Vengeance - Short duration self-buff which allows priest to heal their friendly target as they attack their enemy target with melee attacks

    Sundering Light - Group heal who's epicenter is a targeted enemy which receives a DoT.

     

    There is a big difference in the effectiveness of a 'worldly' cleric vs one who does not explore. I would also be ok if there were upgrade scrolls as well.

     

    Scroll of Regeneration: Your regeneration spell lasts 6 seconds longer

    Scroll of Greater Smite: Reduce the mana cost of Greater Smite by 20 mana

    Scroll of Greater Heal: refunds 50% of the mana cost of Greater Heal when you heal a target at or below 50% health.

     

    Ok, thats enough idea's from me.

     

    -Todd

     


    This post was edited by tehtawd at January 17, 2017 3:53 PM PST
    • 144 posts
    January 17, 2017 4:01 PM PST

    Merchants at lower levels worked nice imo.

    Mid to higher could be mob drops and research as well as some "difficult to get to vendors", like the Ocean of Tears vendor in EQ that sells mage spells that can only be bought there, or researched. Would be really cool if research also used player crafted things.

    End game could be a mix of all, mob drops, raid drops, researched, crafted, quest rewards, the sky is the limit

    Would like to see lots of quests for spells though later in the game, always enjoyed that as opposed to "oh look, we killed a mob and this hit the ground" or "oh, brb hitting spell merchants"

     

    • 220 posts
    January 17, 2017 4:38 PM PST

    Starter skills- trainer

    Second teir skills- quested, crafted

    Third teir skills- Absorbed from fallen bosses

    Fourth teir skills- Discovered on new continents!

    Fifth teir skills- PK Kilsin on a PVE server

    Sixth teir skills- PK Lord British "while he's in GM mode"

    Seventh teir skills - become ascended into your races pantheon as a new god!

       


    This post was edited by Larr at January 17, 2017 4:39 PM PST
    • 172 posts
    January 17, 2017 4:43 PM PST

    I like the idea of trainers at the start.  It will help new players.  It make one feel like they are a 'newb' in the world, which they are.  And it will 'get the game going'.

    Over time, the trainee should start to match the trainers.  The trainers will have less and less to offer.  When the charater is level 25, the trainer may only provide a single spell of the 9 spells that are available.  By level 30, you will be the hero, having out done even your trainers.  In fact, make the trainers say it to the player.

    Later spells should come from a variety of areas, but my favorites are (in this order):  1)  Quested  2)  Faction related  3)  Crafted***  4)  Mob drops

    *** Crafted should be able to be done by anyone.  You would just need the proper training and skills.

    Please, no automatic updates.

    Lastly, I loved the spell cricles in the original EQ.  Although the spread in levels between them should be determined by the total number of levels that Pantheon chooses to go with.


    This post was edited by JDNight at January 17, 2017 4:48 PM PST
    • 234 posts
    January 17, 2017 5:05 PM PST

    JDNight said:

    Lastly, I loved the spell cricles in the original EQ.  Although how spread apart they are should be determined by the total number of levels that Pantheon chooses to go with.

    If by circles you mean the spread in levels between new spells?

    I remember being very happy when I got to 50 that every level after that I would have something to look forward too. 

    On the other hand it was really that long haul between new spells that would drive me to go out and get XP.  I appreciated the fact that I had to make due with what I had and learn to use it effectivly to reach the next tier.

    So I'm split on how often an upgrade should be given.

    BUT

    And this is a bit off topic but more from an integration with other systems point of view.

    Since it appears that the community, myself included, would appreciate a longer journey but we don't want to nessessarily turn it into a grind fest then how can we make it so that the journey is indeed epic while not making it feel as grindy?

    I recall somehwere reading about how EQ originally only had the yellow bar to show XP, but to the players it felt intollerable as it never appeared any progress was bing made.  Much like watching grass grow. So they added the blue bar that would then incrment fully for each segment of the yellow bar and suddenly players felt better about it even though it was still just as much XP to grind out. Basically modify the perception of the player through more active change in the UI but maintain the same result.

    So from a spell distribtuion perspective, it might be interesting to take a similar approach.

    Instead of distributing a block of spells every 4 or 5 levels, spread those out over the 4 or 5 levels and even 1/2 or 1/4 lvl incrments until the block of spells for that tier has been unlocked for the player. Thus constantly rewarding the player who will have something nice to look forward to more often but the end result is the same, you are no more powerful when you reach lvl 5 than you would have been if all the spells had been given to you only after reaching lvl 5.

    Then longer leveling times wouldn't feel as grindy since you actually get new stuff to try out all the time.

    Perhaps, just as spells became more powerful as you leveled EQ, take that into the negative direction as well.  The spell is level 5 but you can learn it at level 3 so its -2 to effectivness and as you head towards lvl 10 it increases by +1 per level.  Thus simulating the effects of learning something new and becoming proficient at it.

    Just a thought.

    -Az

     


    This post was edited by azaya at January 17, 2017 5:17 PM PST
    • 180 posts
    January 17, 2017 7:03 PM PST

    Put me in for liking a variety of ways to obtain spells. Perhaps your first spells are all purchased but I would like to see the more class defining spells, even at the lower levels either crafted, or quested or dropped off a lower level boss.


    This post was edited by Thanakos at January 17, 2017 7:04 PM PST
    • 85 posts
    January 17, 2017 7:07 PM PST

    VG is a good example. Early days you get them at trainers. I think on my sorc lvl 20 you started getting learned spells from attacking mobs, or mob drops and trainers (Goes on till lvl 50). Then when lvl 55 hit the spells were more of a crafter made item (addition to other materials required). SO safe to say.. Spells from mobs kills, fighting a mob, mob drops, trainers and crafted. Just mix them up im ok with wat ever...