Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What changes players from blasting to max level at launch?

    • 521 posts
    January 17, 2017 11:58 PM PST

    Id like leveling to be slow enough that I can actually enjoy running a dungeon more than once before surpassing the level range of the dungeon. I find that most of the content is useless due to the speed of leveling. I would even go as far as to say id like to see the XP gains hidden (meaning not showing in the combat log) or even delayed for a time to discourage meta gaming.

    • 156 posts
    January 18, 2017 3:16 AM PST

    Liav said:

    The idea of it taking several days to make one level playing 8 hours a day makes me physically ill.

    Didn't play any MUDs I take it? Some took an average gamer 1-2 years to reach cap and powergamers 6 months. Level 1-5 maybe saw you get a level a day, but the exponential xp requirements soon saw you taking days and then weeks to get a level. Death also meant losing all accumalted xp and a level that you had to grind out again.

    Ah, the good old days.

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2017 3:34 AM PST

    Quintra said:

    Sorry if this has already been asked, i didnt read through every single post, but are hell levels planned to be a thing at this time, or no? or still up in the air?

    It is unlikely as that was a bug in the code for leveling in EQ.

    • 1303 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:56 AM PST

    Liav said:

    The idea of it taking several days to make one level playing 8 hours a day makes me physically ill.

    I can understand wanting to make things slower than contemporary MMOs, but one level every several days? We're talking about a thousandfold increase. I can't even imagine the demoralization of grinding for 8 straight hours to get 30% of a level.

    Imagine the feelings of probably better than 80% of the playerbase then. When after 1 month they start seeing the incessant spam on the game forums about how some small minority found a bug in an end-game raid and the devs are "too lazy" or "too incompetent" to fix it. And then listening to a year's worth of bitching about the fact that there's not enough content, and "when will they ever get around to a new expansion?". 

    While I wont claim it makes me physically ill (because frankly l couldnt care less about the situation you've jammed yourself into) it's just unproductive, selfish and unjust chaffe that everyone else has to put up with. 

    • 44 posts
    January 18, 2017 6:29 AM PST

    I think it's inevitable that no matter what the devs do, there will be some people that will powerlevel to max level very quickly. Sure, it might not happen in days, but unless the XP curve is just ridiculous, I'd be surprised if there aren't max level people within the first month.

    There are several reasons why I think this is the case. First, it isn't 1999 anymore. Presumably nearly everyone who plays this game will be an MMO veteran. People will figure out the best ways to maximize XP gain. This will only be made easier by the ease of access to information on fan sites, wikis, etc. Furthermore, with a likely long pre-release period where people will be able to play the game, people will already be experts to some degree on where to go. Finally, you'll probably see a lot more boxing than you did in 1999. That is certainly one downside with having a game with slower paced combat, you will probably see a lot more two and three boxing than you do in games with more action-oriented combat.

    I'm not saying this will be the norm, but I think it is bound to happen.

    • 151 posts
    January 18, 2017 7:00 AM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    Liav said:

    The idea of it taking several days to make one level playing 8 hours a day makes me physically ill.

    I can understand wanting to make things slower than contemporary MMOs, but one level every several days? We're talking about a thousandfold increase. I can't even imagine the demoralization of grinding for 8 straight hours to get 30% of a level.

    Imagine the feelings of probably better than 80% of the playerbase then. When after 1 month they start seeing the incessant spam on the game forums about how some small minority found a bug in an end-game raid and the devs are "too lazy" or "too incompetent" to fix it. And then listening to a year's worth of bitching about the fact that there's not enough content, and "when will they ever get around to a new expansion?". 

    While I wont claim it makes me physically ill (because frankly l couldnt care less about the situation you've jammed yourself into) it's just unproductive, selfish and unjust chaffe that everyone else has to put up with. 

     

    This. My biggest reason for wanting to see a slower leveling pace. The guys that rush to the end are usuallt the most vocal and will be the first to exhaust existing content and then start making noise for more. In my opinion as a game gets more expansions it begins to degrade. More is not better for me. So I would like to see the creep toward expansions to be slow. If people are already asking for one 4 months into the game it doesn't bode well for the long term. If Pantheon is as good as I hope I want to ride it as long as I can. I am not looking for a 2 or 3 year run, I want more.

    • 60 posts
    January 18, 2017 7:00 AM PST

    snrub said:

    I think it's inevitable that no matter what the devs do, there will be some people that will powerlevel to max level very quickly. Sure, it might not happen in days, but unless the XP curve is just ridiculous, I'd be surprised if there aren't max level people within the first month.

    There are several reasons why I think this is the case. First, it isn't 1999 anymore. Presumably nearly everyone who plays this game will be an MMO veteran. People will figure out the best ways to maximize XP gain. This will only be made easier by the ease of access to information on fan sites, wikis, etc. Furthermore, with a likely long pre-release period where people will be able to play the game, people will already be experts to some degree on where to go. Finally, you'll probably see a lot more boxing than you did in 1999. That is certainly one downside with having a game with slower paced combat, you will probably see a lot more two and three boxing than you do in games with more action-oriented combat.

    I'm not saying this will be the norm, but I think it is bound to happen.

    Well on the P99 shards it still takes people about a month or 2 to hit cap while also playing like 10 hours a day and they have access to loads of guides from fansites, so it is possible to make it challenging and take a long time nowadays. 

    • 14 posts
    January 18, 2017 7:27 AM PST

    I agree with Hemlock. It would be great to not outlevel dungeons as you are doing them. Awesome point!

     


    This post was edited by brun at January 18, 2017 7:29 AM PST
    • 60 posts
    January 18, 2017 7:51 AM PST

    brun said:

    I agree with Hemlock. It would be great to not outlevel dungeons as you are doing them. Awesome point!

     

    On the latest stream they were in a dungeon(the one with multiple floors, I forgot what they called it) and said that there is multiple different level of mobs in different parts of the dungeon. For example If I recall right they said in that particular dungeon there is some parts that are for level 30ish but some parts are made for when you get level 45-50.

    • 1303 posts
    January 18, 2017 8:21 AM PST

    Dullahan said:

    Just think about it this way. In virtually every other mmo, the only thing standing between a player and their treasures, new abilities, and access to further experience, is levels. According to what we know about Pantheon, the world itself stands in your way. Levels alone won't necessarily allow you to survive a harsh climate, enter an area or dungeon, or even give your new abilities (or, in some cases, the proper mana to use them).

    Just looking down the list of their plans for the game and the world, I see a long list of ways they can soft gate content. Whether or not that will be the case remains to be seen, but it seems to me that people are going to be in for a big surprise if they think progression in Pantheon is going to follow the traditional level to X, move to zone Y formula until max level.

    That's an excellent point. If every tier of progression had increasingly harsh climates/atmospheres, just getting a couple more levels doesnt make it possible to proceed. Skills development, spell (and perhaps tiers of spell) advancement and gear would also become a factor. So while you might be able to blast thru some levels, it doesnt mean you could move to the areas that would allow you to get more levels if you hadnt yet advanced your skills and gear as well. That could include quests that take notable time to work thru to obtain the skills/spells/gear. 

    • 1778 posts
    January 18, 2017 8:24 AM PST
    I just wanted to add that while I can't speak for everyone, Im not as worried about slowing others progress as much as making the leveling process a bit more involved and with some actual challenge. Not as concerned with leveling speed or forcing power players to take 1 year to level. And I think the way FFXIV first had it with the xp fatigue was crap (I was there at the time). However I am in favor of some challenge to the process such as needing to be geared properly, no PLing(which I know is gonna be a thing despite how I feel), skilling up, having to quest for iconic or class defining spells and abilities. And of course I'm a big fan of the Rights of Passage system. But again to make it more challenging than easy mode just level it up. Not to specifically stop progress.
    • 169 posts
    January 18, 2017 9:08 AM PST

    I believe that people overreact to slow leveling sometimes. You are always making progress even if you aren't dinging unless you are dying a lot. I don't know if many people have played the Elder Scrolls Online, but the leveling in that game feels pretty slow to me after level 10. That doesn't detract from the experience of playing the game. It can even make the game more enjoyable to play because you have time to experience a lot of different content for a particular level range.

    • 19 posts
    January 18, 2017 9:24 AM PST

    Feyshtey said:

    Jasper said:

    Lets keep the discussion on the topic and friendly.  Try not to derail this into a "You did this, You didn't do this" argument please.

    I  agree about the friendly part. But exagerating past experiences and using it as a basis for an argument thats on topic should be pointed out. I also tend to be highly skeptical of 1month to hit cap at the relase of original EQ. And 20 years of EQ is all but a impossible, since it would mean he was playing EQ almost 3 years before release. Arguments delivered with highly unlikely and/or flat out false foundations should not be considered valid, and for all others in the discussion that dont know better should be told so. 



    He was stating it took him 1 month to hit cap on Phini, not original EQ.  The 20 years of experience obviously has to be an exageration.
    The point of my post is not to turn this into a flame war and be respectful.  Attacking others isn't the way to get a point across.  :)

    • 200 posts
    January 18, 2017 9:59 AM PST

    Interwebs are truth always!

    Why do we need to control other's advancement?  If you play the game you should be rewarded, why should someone get a benefit from NOT playing the game, while those who play the game get diminishing returns?  The idea of bonus exp and/or Diminishing experience for kill amounts (negative bonus exp) would more than likely encourage me NOT to login and play until I could maximize my exp gain...and will create a hollow feeling that someone may not have had to grind/play as long as me to get to the same place if I chose to blast thru content and eat the exp redux b/c I truly enjoyed the game.

    Other random thoughts that came up when reading this thread:

    1. I'd like to hope that levels are slow enough for me to fully understand the benefits granted by each level spells, abilities, gear and that there is a real benefit to each class doing this.  I've played MMO's that by the time I integrate the new ability/spell into my line up it is obsoleted

    2. Crafting my own gear via tradeskills I've just not bothered because by the time you sit down and make it and equip it..you have passed it's usefulness for your main character and it becomes alt/twinking gear.

    3. If there is a mechanism in the game that makes it worth not grinding to max level immediately, then folks will possibly slow down the race to be the uberest maxed level they can be. If there isn't, folks will rush to max level and then go back and grind the attributes or benefits offered as the Min/Max approach to your character. Guessing what is there right now will most likely degrade to the afore mentioned "You did this, You didn't do this".

     

     


    This post was edited by Warben at January 18, 2017 10:21 AM PST
    • 3016 posts
    January 18, 2017 10:12 AM PST

    Umbra said:

    Liav said:

    The idea of it taking several days to make one level playing 8 hours a day makes me physically ill.

    Didn't play any MUDs I take it? Some took an average gamer 1-2 years to reach cap and powergamers 6 months. Level 1-5 maybe saw you get a level a day, but the exponential xp requirements soon saw you taking days and then weeks to get a level. Death also meant losing all accumalted xp and a level that you had to grind out again.

    Ah, the good old days.

     

    I remember this..but hope that VR "tempers" this in a way that will be enjoyable for all..and how we get there is by feedback at testing time, looking forward to it. :)

    • 60 posts
    January 18, 2017 10:51 AM PST

    Warben said:

    3. If there is a mechanism in the game that makes it worth not grinding to max level immediately, then folks will possibly slow down the race to be the uberest maxed level they can be. If there isn't, folks will rush to max level and then go back and grind the attributes or benefits offered as the Min/Max approach to your character. Guessing what is there right now will most likely degrade to the afore mentioned "You did this, You didn't do this".

    The only way I think this would work is if they made it so certain drops are only available to be dropped if your within a certain level range and are not tradeable. They would have to be something that is also going to be very useful even at cap. I don't think this would be a good idea though because then the drop rate would have to be reasonable and would therefore make the item seem less exciting once obtained. 

    They also couldn't do it with quests since they are using a perception type of system that even players that are not rushing could even miss out on which would frustrate a lot of people.

    • 2138 posts
    January 18, 2017 1:56 PM PST

    This thread is a fun read!-emergent forum play, lol.

    Of course I want to be first, but I learned I may not be. Good friends in group may have moved on rapidly and so I had to find others, and I did and we stayed together for many levels.

    It happens, Alts were desired and they moved on, heh- it was uncomfortable- a "what do i do now?" kind of thing, so I had to make friends again and I did. It took a while but this new group also wanted to do some raiding so we had to meet more people who were interested, reqruitment consisted of shouting for people to help with epics for one, stranger. The same people started showing up and asked for help with their epics and from their, maybe a raid. We were not top of the server, but we were there and learned from all those that went before us. Some would even join just to lead and re-experience the event which we thought was an honor to have them along. sure, some left as if we were a learning ground- but many stayed.   

    There were no jeers, it was fun and may years after the content was "old".

    Also I like seeing higher level players and their fancy stuff.

    • 15 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:18 PM PST

    I don't think artificially ehempering one's leveling speed is desirable, or even a good idea. casual players make a game live, but hardcore ones make it known. My guild and I are planning on going for world and server firsts but we also welcome casuals and I think both type of gameplay are desirable for a healty game environment and community.

     

    Now having said that, I still hope getting to max level will take more than a week or even a couple weeks. I would be sorely disappointed if it took less than a month of hardcore borderline no life leveling/grinding to reach max level.

    As many said here, it's hardcore, high level, progression and achievement focused players that drive casuals to play just that bit more, put on that little bit of extra effort to clear that dungeon, get that shiny piece of loot. Having them in the game in no way hurts the community, it just makes for something casual players can look up and look forward to in their own time and at their own pace.

    • 393 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:23 PM PST

    The thing I don't understand about arguing against speed levelers is, why does someone elses experience affect anothers to such a degree that something must be done about it when that experience is only realized by the individual going through it? Being one of the few 'peacocks' is not a shared or mutual experience IMO.

    I have myself tried to speed level on release of WoW, and GW2. And despite taking about 2 weeks vacation in both cases, I came up rather short compared to those who maintained the lead. In the end, on both accounts, entropy occured as the rest of the playing field caught up to the 'end game' and at that point it became the raiding race for top spot. I realized in both accounts that I missed not just an enormous amount of content (which I later had to go through alone) but I also forfeit tremendous experiences. I attended some high level raiding far in advance of most and the experiences were mostly bereft of interest and enjoyment. But I mostly raided with groups in the lower-middle field and relished in the rich experience it offered in comparisson.

    The realization, at least for me, was eventually finding far more satisfaction in taking the time to be present and participate in the amazing content the designers and developers had spent countless hours and effort in creating.

    Just my experience. But in those more 'relaxed' and shared moments, very much more meaningful and enjoyable.

    So, of course, when a game like Pantheon comes around where it's core concept focuses discreetly on the mutual and shared experience of gameplay well....

    ...at least I know this game is not intended to be race to the end.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by OakKnower at January 18, 2017 4:24 PM PST
    • 1434 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:33 PM PST

    OakKnower said:

    The thing I don't understand about arguing against speed levelers is, why does someone elses experience affect anothers to such a degree that something must be done about it when that experience is only realized by the individual going through it? Being one of the few 'peacocks' is not a shared or mutual experience IMO.

    That's the wrong question. It's not people speeding through content that is the issue, but the game allowing it. If people are able to just speed through, that impacts everyone because it means the game I'm hoping to play long term, with all of it's mysteries and challenges, really isn't going to be that mysterious, that challenging, or that long-term.

    It's a valid concern.

    • 60 posts
    January 18, 2017 4:51 PM PST

    Just because us speed levelers/raiders enjoy trying to be first does not mean we don't care about how long it takes us. We want it to also be challenging and take time...I mean sure it won't take us anywhere near as long as casual players to hit cap or down a raid boss but we still want some sort of challenge/time. That's why I mentioned that if it takes me 3 weeks to hit cap I would be generally happy with that. I would prefer it to be longer but I understand that if it takes a hardcore player 3 months then it will take a casual player over a year and people would most likely complain.

    Someone mentioned above a very good point that is so true in the 17 years I have been playing mmo's. Casual players make a game live but the hardcore ones make it known. The hardcore crowd is just as important for the life span of a game as the casuals.

    • 393 posts
    January 18, 2017 5:22 PM PST

    Dullahan said:

    OakKnower said:

    The thing I don't understand about arguing against speed levelers is, why does someone elses experience affect anothers to such a degree that something must be done about it when that experience is only realized by the individual going through it? Being one of the few 'peacocks' is not a shared or mutual experience IMO.

    That's the wrong question. It's not people speeding through content that is the issue, but the game allowing it. If people are able to just speed through, that impacts everyone because it means the game I'm hoping to play long term, with all of it's mysteries and challenges, really isn't going to be that mysterious, that challenging, or that long-term.

    It's a valid concern.

    I hear what you are saying Dullahan. And I don't disagree with you in the least. I am assuming that the conent that exists is rich, dense, and engaging. My point is that despite those qualities there will be people who will forgo that material (as much as is neccessary) to be the first (or one of the first) to claim an otherwise unofficial and generally regardless assertion of being the first to max level.

    I do hope that the conent will be worth many days well spent for most of us. For me personally, it will be the measuring stick by which I decide the game is worthy of years or months of time spent playing.

    I'm just not sure how to prohibit someone from leveling as fast a they possibly can and not create conflict from that end (key word is prohibit in an active sense). Creating material such that it is not punitive but rather convincing it's player base to stay engaged appropriately in that content that the idea of getting to max level as quickly as possible no longer a challenge is the true challenge.

    Did that make sense?

    I really liked EVE online in that sense. There was no max level to drive a person to feel they needed to be the first.

    • 393 posts
    January 18, 2017 5:33 PM PST

    Stephen said:

    Just because us speed levelers/raiders enjoy trying to be first does not mean we don't care about how long it takes us. We want it to also be challenging and take time...I mean sure it won't take us anywhere near as long as casual players to hit cap or down a raid boss but we still want some sort of challenge/time. That's why I mentioned that if it takes me 3 weeks to hit cap I would be generally happy with that. I would prefer it to be longer but I understand that if it takes a hardcore player 3 months then it will take a casual player over a year and people would most likely complain.

    Someone mentioned above a very good point that is so true in the 17 years I have been playing mmo's. Casual players make a game live but the hardcore ones make it known. The hardcore crowd is just as important for the life span of a game as the casuals.

    Oh, I hope it takes far longer than that my friend. If it takes you 3 weeks to hit cap then the gross remainder of the player base will likewise easily reach cap in 2-3 months. Definately not long enough unless they already have expansions ready to release by 6 months and I seriously doubt that will be the case.

    There is absolutely nothing wrong in having game with content that will take months and months to reach cap. And given enough content, years to master most of it. If one is only concerned with reaching max level in a few weeks then I feel kind of sorry for them. There may not be anything significant sitting at max level and realizing you still hae so much content to work through in other areas of the game. Especially if those other areas require months of dedicated work.

    I would be so disappointed in such a position.

    • 3237 posts
    January 18, 2017 5:42 PM PST

    OakKnower said:

    Dullahan said:

    OakKnower said:

    The thing I don't understand about arguing against speed levelers is, why does someone elses experience affect anothers to such a degree that something must be done about it when that experience is only realized by the individual going through it? Being one of the few 'peacocks' is not a shared or mutual experience IMO.

    That's the wrong question. It's not people speeding through content that is the issue, but the game allowing it. If people are able to just speed through, that impacts everyone because it means the game I'm hoping to play long term, with all of it's mysteries and challenges, really isn't going to be that mysterious, that challenging, or that long-term.

    It's a valid concern.

    I hear what you are saying Dullahan. And I don't disagree with you in the least. I am assuming that the conent that exists is rich, dense, and engaging. My point is that despite those qualities there will be people who will forgo that material (as much as is neccessary) to be the first (or one of the first) to claim an otherwise unofficial and generally regardless assertion of being the first to max level.

    I do hope that the conent will be worth many days well spent for most of us. For me personally, it will be the measuring stick by which I decide the game is worthy of years or months of time spent playing.

    I'm just not sure how to prohibit someone from leveling as fast a they possibly can and not create conflict from that end (key word is prohibit in an active sense). Creating material such that it is not punitive but rather convincing it's player base to stay engaged appropriately in that content that the idea of getting to max level as quickly as possible no longer a challenge is the true challenge.

    Did that make sense?

    I really liked EVE online in that sense. There was no max level to drive a person to feel they needed to be the first.

     

    I'm fairly positive that there will be people rushing to level cap on every single server.  I don't see anyway round this.  The thrill of competition is always going to be a factor when you get a massive amount of people playing a video game together.  While some people prefer the social aspect of MMO's, many others prefer the challenge, and most people will assume that end-game content is going to be the most challenging.  I think there should be a lot of emphasis on making the entire game challenging.  I want there to be mini epic quests around level 35 that are a real PITA to get done.  Combine things like this with tons of optional advancement opportunities that can make a character more "dynamic" and people will realize that getting to level 50 isn't quite the same accomplishment as being a well-versed dynamic level 50.

    I have mentioned in various other posts that I think an AA system at launch would be a great way to keep players engaged with current tier content much much longer.  You can't grind the AA's out, rather, you can only earn XP toward AA points by visiting new locations, completing quests, or for the first time you kill a unique named mob.  This ensures the idea that players have no choice but to experience as much content as possible in order to unlock the true potential of their characters.  The interesting dynamic here is that when it comes to the final leg of the AA tree, players might actively seek out other classes to help THEM with THEIR unique quests.  I can see it now ... a dire lord asking in community chat if there are any enchanters working on an enchanter specific timeline.  The direlord is actively seeking out enchanters to help THEM on THEIR quest because they are a means to an end for him being able to kill the unique named from those quests or be able to travel to a unique location.  The enchanter wins because he's getting help without having to beg, and the direlord wins because he's experiencing content that he otherwise would not have been able to.  It's a double whammy and both parties win.

    • 521 posts
    January 18, 2017 5:49 PM PST

    Id be fine with a XP cap for a certain time period, week, month ect to insure the games longevity by not allowing players to max level in 30 days or even 6 months, and maybe any XP earned post cap could go towards some other advancement, maybe some gold, or a small percentage banked for another character or something. I’d rather it took 2 or 3 years before anyone “could” Max out on levels, and give plenty of time to enjoy the content produced while allowing time for the development of new content that isn't rushed.