The only way to "maybe" stop people from blasting through to max level is to give them an incentive not to. Maybe have something in the game be optional but time based. For instance you get some benefit from staying in a level for an extended time. Maybe there is a skill, ability or something like that that is not required for anything in the game but is very useful to someone in the endgame. It's something that the high end raider is going to want. Make it so that skill does not progress unless you are in a level that ends in 0 like 10, 20, 30 ext. Now make it so that it does not go up until you have been in that level for a few days, a few weeks, whatever. Add on to it you can only gain so many points in skill up per level that skill can be gained.
This will slow down the leveling curve for the hardcore types because they will need to have the best of everything. No one is forced to do it, people can just blast through the game but will find themselves at the endgame full capable or playing and being good but missing a little something. Just make the little something a thing that is useful and great to have but not a requirement to play.
And just to cover all of the people that would balk at having any content out of reach for the powerleveled uber raider max level god characters have the skill, ability in question available to max level characters but have the time it takes to aquire it increased to several months, maybe a year. So thye can still get it but its far better to actually do it the first time around.
I think this could work.
I will look at this from a statistical POV.
========== ANALYSIS: Lev 1-50 based on Infinum of 1 month =======================
Assumptions:
1. A = Casual = 10 Hrs/week, efficiency* 50%
B = Regular = 20 Hrs/week, efficiency* 60%
X = Rusher = 80 Hrs/Week, efficiency* 70%
These Definitions/assumptions are based on :
'Rusher' player = an experienced player, driven to get to end-game
at the maximum pace possible.
'Regular' player = a semi-experienced player with enough time to put
into playing, moderately focused on levelling.
'casual' player = based on either a newer player or more experiewnced
one who prefers to round out their character at
the expense of levelling quickly.
2. 'EXP per level'/'EXP per mob' scale in line with EQ1 (vanilla, no hell lvls)
3. A 'Rusher' will get to MAX level in 32 days, at an average of 8 hrs/day.
* Efficiency ratings are given to represent focus on objectives. In all liklihood
these are overly optimistic for Regular and Casuals. A Better estimate for the
mean efficiency for these categories would increase time-to-level by:
+15% to +25% time taken for Category B (Regular), and
+40% to +60% time taken for Category A (Casual)
BELOW is a Table showing how the others will progress compared to the 'Rusher'
+------------+------------------------------------------+
| | Time for each player type to make level |
| Level Made | X (Rusher) | B (Regular) | A (Casual) |
+------------+-------------+-------------+--------------+
| 5 | 2 days | 7 days | 16 days |
| 10 | 5 days | 16 days | 38 days |
| 15 | 8 days | | |
| 20 | 11 days | 5 weeks | 12 weeks |
| 25 | | | |
| 30 | 17 days | 7 weeks | 18 weeks |
| 35 | | | |
| 40 | 24 days | 10 weeks | 6 months |
| 45 | | | |
| 50 | 32 days | 16 weeks | 9 months |
+------------+-------------+-------------+--------------+
CAVEATS :
The data above is an estimate for scaled time to level based on the three
assumptions given. However, the variable efficiency factor to be applied
adds a significant margin for error. Thus, the data above can only be used
to generate a broad base-line comparison of player-type.
========== ANALYSIS END ========================================================
Thus, based on the 'one month to MAX level' for the top elite rushers, this trickles down to 9-12 months to max level for even casuals. It seems reasonable, therefore, to look at slower progression in this case, perhaps even slowing by a factor of 2x. I would not think 2 months to max level would be offputting for these elite levellers, and the commensurate max level time of 7-9 months for 'Regulars' and 18-27 months for 'Casuals' not terrible. Personally, I would prefer a 3x or even 4x factor, but I am likely in a minority there :)
I would rather see a "diminshing return" on XP gained for certain things. Let's say that you COULD just stay in one spot slaying kobalds for days on end. I would like to see the XP gain for killing them drop lower and lower. Say as an example, 100 XP for the first one, then 99, then 98 etc. Eventually you get no XP for grinding them. This would seem to make some sense to me as there is only so many things you are going to learn by killing the same mobs over and over.
I would also like to see diminishing returns over time. What this means is that there is only so much XP you can gain over a specific amount of time. So if you cross a specific threshold in XP gain you will no longer gain any XP for grinding mobs. I would say to let them gain Quest XP and Pereception gain etc., but drop the MobKills XP until the threshhold passes.
I like the post above mine, nice tables etx.
My "diminishing returns" idea would actually blow that apart. By adding this type of scaling to the guesstemations, you can control the rate at which the "rushers" level up. This might turn some folks off (the rushers) but in the long run I think it would make for a better community.
Nephretiti said:I would rather see a "diminshing return" on XP gained for certain things. Let's say that you COULD just stay in one spot slaying kobalds for days on end. I would like to see the XP gain for killing them drop lower and lower. Say as an example, 100 XP for the first one, then 99, then 98 etc. Eventually you get no XP for grinding them. This would seem to make some sense to me as there is only so many things you are going to learn by killing the same mobs over and over.
I would also like to see diminishing returns over time. What this means is that there is only so much XP you can gain over a specific amount of time. So if you cross a specific threshold in XP gain you will no longer gain any XP for grinding mobs. I would say to let them gain Quest XP and Pereception gain etc., but drop the MobKills XP until the threshhold passes.
I can deal with diminishing returns in an area or type of mob, which forces me to explore different areas, but not time. I pay my fee, I should not get punished for having more time to play the game.
Communities are founded by people that play a lot. Don't limit their time in game or make their time trivial. That only hurts communities by telling people they have to go play another game for a while, then come back.
Evoras said:I will look at this from a statistical POV.
========== ANALYSIS: Lev 1-50 based on Infinum of 1 month =======================
Assumptions:
1. A = Casual = 10 Hrs/week, efficiency* 50%
B = Regular = 20 Hrs/week, efficiency* 60%
X = Rusher = 80 Hrs/Week, efficiency* 70%These Definitions/assumptions are based on :
'Rusher' player = an experienced player, driven to get to end-game
at the maximum pace possible.
'Regular' player = a semi-experienced player with enough time to put
into playing, moderately focused on levelling.
'casual' player = based on either a newer player or more experiewnced
one who prefers to round out their character at
the expense of levelling quickly.2. 'EXP per level'/'EXP per mob' scale in line with EQ1 (vanilla, no hell lvls)
3. A 'Rusher' will get to MAX level in 32 days, at an average of 8 hrs/day.
* Efficiency ratings are given to represent focus on objectives. In all liklihood
these are overly optimistic for Regular and Casuals. A Better estimate for the
mean efficiency for these categories would increase time-to-level by:
+15% to +25% time taken for Category B (Regular), and
+40% to +60% time taken for Category A (Casual)BELOW is a Table showing how the others will progress compared to the 'Rusher'
+------------+------------------------------------------+
| | Time for each player type to make level |
| Level Made | X (Rusher) | B (Regular) | A (Casual) |
+------------+-------------+-------------+--------------+
| 5 | 2 days | 7 days | 16 days |
| 10 | 5 days | 16 days | 38 days |
| 15 | 8 days | | |
| 20 | 11 days | 5 weeks | 12 weeks |
| 25 | | | |
| 30 | 17 days | 7 weeks | 18 weeks |
| 35 | | | |
| 40 | 24 days | 10 weeks | 6 months |
| 45 | | | |
| 50 | 32 days | 16 weeks | 9 months |
+------------+-------------+-------------+--------------+CAVEATS :
The data above is an estimate for scaled time to level based on the three
assumptions given. However, the variable efficiency factor to be applied
adds a significant margin for error. Thus, the data above can only be used
to generate a broad base-line comparison of player-type.========== ANALYSIS END ========================================================
Thus, based on the 'one month to MAX level' for the top elite rushers, this trickles down to 9-12 months to max level for even casuals. It seems reasonable, therefore, to look at slower progression in this case, perhaps even slowing by a factor of 2x. I would not think 2 months to max level would be offputting for these elite levellers, and the commensurate max level time of 7-9 months for 'Regulars' and 18-27 months for 'Casuals' not terrible. Personally, I would prefer a 3x or even 4x factor, but I am likely in a minority there :)
This made me chuckle a little more than I should have but very insightful indeed :).
Right but diminishing returns would only restrict XP gain from grinding over a period of time. You would still be able to gain XP through questing, you would still be able to level up your Perectpion, you could still gain XP for Tradeskills etc. It would really only affect those who rush through levels by grinding through mobs for days. We all know there have been examples of folks whole launch with the game and then have teams of folks grind through mobs so that they hit max level in 3 days. I would like to see a cure for that. Diminishing returns would do that.
I actually beleive that there may already be enough mechanics in the game that if you take the time to level all of them up with your current level you may very well never hit that dimishing returns/time level. Diminshing Returns over time is basically saying "you gained the max amount of XP for killing mobs today - go do some tradeskills, go learn some lore (my favorite), go do some questing, go do something else besides rushing to the end-game level.
I don't think EXP for killing a mob should ever be zero (while non-trivial = grey),
but simply link these reductions to 'achievements'.
Achievement
Met an Orc (kill 1 Orc) = get 200% exp for first 5 kills each
Chaser of Orcs (kill 5) = after 5 reduce exp to 100%
Basher of Orcs (kill 50) = after 50 reduce exp to 90%
Orc Culler (kill 100) = after 100 reduce exp to 80%
Orc Killer (kill 500) = after 500 reduce exp to 70%
Orc Battler (kill 1000) = after 1000 reduce exp to 60%
Orc Slayer (Kill 5000) = after 5000 reduce exp to 50%
Orc Nemesis (get 'Slayer' for 5 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 25%
Orc Bane (get 'Slayer' for all 10 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 10%
So killing more and more of the same type of mob leads to diminishing returns.
It does give shiny achievement badges though!, perhaps?
Nephretiti said:Right but diminishing returns would only restrict XP gain from grinding over a period of time. You would still be able to gain XP through questing, you would still be able to level up your Perectpion, you could still gain XP for Tradeskills etc. It would really only affect those who rush through levels by grinding through mobs for days. We all know there have been examples of folks whole launch with the game and then have teams of folks grind through mobs so that they hit max level in 3 days. I would like to see a cure for that. Diminishing returns would do that.
I actually beleive that there may already be enough mechanics in the game that if you take the time to level all of them up with your current level you may very well never hit that dimishing returns/time level. Diminshing Returns over time is basically saying "you gained the max amount of XP for killing mobs today - go do some tradeskills, go learn some lore (my favorite), go do some questing, go do something else besides rushing to the end-game level.
That seems to defeat the idea of an open world, player choice, and different play styles. Not everyone enjoys quests, crafting, or other parts of the game. Some just like to grind and hang out with friends. You are telling them to either get no XP from grinding, which makes it meaningless, or go do a part of the game they do not enjoy. That will chase people off.
People put their time and money into the game to enjoy it, not to be forced to earn nothing or go do something they don't enjoy. It's not a job, it's a game.
I'm not sure diminishing returns would work. For instance if the group that formed to powerlevel learned they couldn't get to max level fastest by camping the same spot then they would just move around constantly while killing mobs. The only thing that would encourage is to move around.
Nephretiti said:Oh, I agree - it isn't a job - it IS a game. So go enjoy the different aspects of the game and have some fun. Mindlessly grinding one mob for hours on end is far closer to a job than a game.
OR, VR can create a wonderful world and let the players decide how they want to participate in it.
Thallium said:...
What I would personally like to see is a LONG journey to cap that is FUN and not a grind - I think they could achieve this by making it so you can't just sit in one dungeon for huge level blocks. For example you can sit in castle mistmoore from 20-40 without ever leaving, they need to avoid this like the plague if they want slow the game down and still make it fun. They can have a large level spread in dungeons but I think optimally you should only be able to stay somewhere for about 5 levels, then move on and maybe come back later to do another 5 level block once you're a higher level/more progressed....
One of the best things about EQ was the melding of high and low level mobs and areas in a zone. As you work your way up the level ladder continuing with this mentality, you're going to find areas where the gradient is going to level out.
Thallium said:...Having to travel around and see more of the world and experience different zones/mobs is what makes grinding experience fun. If you make it optimal to sit in one place for 50 hours people will do it, myself included, and i'd rather not have that be the fastest way to cap....
In the end it is play preference, but the underlying cause is game content. The game has failed its missive if it doesn't create content that makes you more excited to explore than stick in a Mistmoore situation for 20 levels. From what I have come to understand about the team and what they want to do however, I doubt it will be worth your while to sit in a Mistmoore.
-W
UnknownQuantity said:I'm not sure diminishing returns would work. For instance if the group that formed to powerlevel learned they couldn't get to max level fastest by camping the same spot then they would just move around constantly while killing mobs. The only thing that would encourage is to move around.
You were mixing the two forms I listed. I would like to see both forms added to tell the truth but I am probably far outvoted in this regard. There should be a limit on a specif mob type. There should also be a limit to the amount of Xp gain/time in total. So you could get diminishing returns for kill kobalds to the point where you no longer gain XP for killing them , but you can still get loot etc. At the same time the amount of XP gain from killing mobs is tracked over any specific amount of time. This would recall ALL xp gain from killing mobs. And once a specific throeshold is reached, you will no longer receive XP gains for killing ANY mobs until the xp gain/time reduces itself for the next time interval tracked. Naturally there should be some exceptions. First time kills (or perhaps the first X number of kills) for specific mobs etc. There really enough variables in a system like this that you could build almost anything. Variables like "how much time per tracked interval"? 10 minutes? An hour? A day? All of those but at different reductions per level of interval? This is more to get us thinking at the possibility of what can be restricted than an actuall numbers type of things.
In another time I actually tracked analytics for an MMO. I had reports generated to me to track XP gain/time for the top gainers in a 24 hour period. I would then track everything done by those players over the past 24 hours to determine HOW they made these gains. Sometimes it was someone just grinding away on specific mobs. I would then examine those mobs to determine if there was an error in the amount of XP awarded for those mobs. It was almost always correct. But sometimes it wasn't. Someone would find a mob that was accidently awarding 10x the amount it was supposed to award. I would then notify the DevTeam and a fix would be done.
I also did this for a number of other mechanics in-game. Coin game/time etc. Depending on how robust the database is, you would be suprised to at what can be tracked etc.
Seriously, it was mostly math. I enjoyed it alot.
I wont be blasting my way to max level.. originally I didn't; but my friend did and encouraged to get behind it... so I started doing that in mmo's. Then later on I realised that the journey is half the fun because the game became hallow/unmeaningful. So nahh I'll sit back n enjoy the game this time around.. the memories/good times are what important.. not being percieved "good/hardcore/elite". People like to climb to the top to feel better about themselves or feel exclusive; but in reality even if you do climb to the top it's fundamentality boring anyway as you've done everything there is todo. Soaking up the atomosphere/adventure is what's key.
Best way to slow it is todo what Brad's already doing.. horizontal focus.
Dhampir said:Combine this with the fact that the leveling pace is going to be much slower than other games. I'm talking after a week or so, you may be level 10 or 15. After three or four months, in your 30s, maybe 40s and after about 5 months or so, hitting max level. This is what I expect at least - as a player who plans to play 4-8 hours a day. Its going to take a lot of time for people to get there and also a lot of time for large enough groups of people to get there to accomplish this content, let alone find it.
Dear lord I think a lot of people are in for a rude awakening. 5 months to hit cap? Find that very highly unlikely and if that is the case it will gut the playerbase within a month of release. 5 months of playing 4 hours a day equals out to over 600 hours of leveling. Considering that most of the playerbase will not play 4 hours a day you are talking over a year for most to hit lvl cap. That's incredibly wishful thinking at best. A more realistic number to look for would be about 250 hours. Which means a little over 2 months playing 4 hours a day and even that is a stretch.
@OP - Nothing is going to stop people powering through to end game then going back to farm everything up. It's what I will do as will quite a few others. But the experience overall is very different. If they follow the same track from EQ you can expect some of the mid range gear to still be some of the best pre raid. This game will be very different from most modern games as it breaks the mold set now a days.
Whatever they do, I hope they do not decrease the leveling time after the game has been launched.
They did this in Vanguard for some reason. A few months after launch, they made leveling faster, which:
1) punished/duped all of the players who had leveled already
2) caused more players to reach end-game faster and since there was no end-game content they got bored and quit.
I will be grinding to max level as fast as possible. It's a part of my DNA. I have always played like this and it resulted in my guild being the first to down content on our server. When you have the first tank on server to max level, it just makes sense that you're going to start downing content faster. I understand there will be a "dynamic" player that is more well rounded and better equipped to beat content, and that's all fine and dandy. Once I'm max level, I'll go back and cherry pick what "dynamic" features I want to add to my character based on how effectively they will boost my raiding capabilities. Some people don't play like this because it seems like a "job" and that's your preference. For me personally this playstyle has gotten me and my guilds into every single expansion beta of every game we ever played. We had our guild mates featured on the cover of EQOA Frontiers Expansion game cover. We even had a dev in our guild in EQOA ... his name was Tompo. He didn't log in much because he was busy doing dev stuff all the time, and obviously he never actually played the game with us. But we had a contact if things in the game weren't working properly. I remember Toxxulia not spawning on our server for over 6 weeks. When he finally logged in one day we informed him of this and voila ... Toxxulia was up on our server.
There will always be competition for downing end-game bosses. I don't think removing that is going to make for a better game. The better option is to have enough end-game content available (please make it hard and scaling even harder, and hardest) so the rushers have something to do. For someone like me, the grind doesen't even begin until you reach max level. I think getting a character to max level should only be half the battle, if that. It should take even longer to get them raid-ready and that would consist of further progressing their gear, spells, quests, languages, etc. And it's not just about "beating" the game ... the first people to max level usually have an advantage with setting the in-game economy. This is what always interested me the most. There is no better time to "get rich" in an MMO than right after it's launched. By being the among the first to access content, you more or less get to establish the going rate on crafting materials, loot, etc. We know how expensive it can be to min/max your characters and that's just one of the many reasons people will ALWAYS rush to max level. Instead of trying to change that ... focus on encouraging them to go back and complete other content, or make the progeny system truly worthwhile. I for one can't wait to see how VR pulls this off. At the end of the day though, people will rush that too. I know I will if the "boost" is worthwhile.
It is true you get advantage and prestige for getting to max level quickly, but at what cost? Did you get to enjoy the content while leveling up? I know for me personally I can start to feel sick and unhealthy if I play the game too that extent. I once stayed awake for over a day to get the jboots during a special event that was supposed to be the only way to get these boots and would end in a after a short period of time. I was fairly exhausted after this and slept for a few days. It was a fun experience, but not a healthy one. I also put in way to much time/hours solo grinding and didn't feel great. I often wish I hadn't put in so much time trying to be the best or find the best combination, stuck to one class, and liesurely played through the game so that I could enjoy the content a bit more. I don't think it the drive to get to find the best class and get to max quickly is something that I had initially. It is something that grew in me over time. I never did find the drive to raid a lot though. I guess to each their own.
UnknownQuantity said:It is true you get advantage and prestige for getting to max level quickly, but at what cost? Did you get to enjoy the content while leveling up? I know for me personally I can start to feel sick and unhealthy if I play the game too that extent. I once stayed awake for over a day to get the jboots during a special event that was supposed to be the only way to get these boots and would end in a after a short period of time. I was fairly exhausted after this and slept for a few days. It was a fun experience, but not a healthy one. I also put in way to much time/hours solo grinding and didn't feel great. I often wish I hadn't put in so much time trying to be the best or find the best combination, stuck to one class, and liesurely played through the game so that I could enjoy the content a bit more. I don't think it the drive to get to find the best class and get to max quickly is something that I had initially. It is something that grew in me over time. I never did find the drive to raid a lot though. I guess to each their own.
I know what you mean about playing too much making you feel terrible. It's difficult for me to strike a balance between playing a game and everything else in my life. I think it's part of my personality to want to focus on one thing at a time. So if I'm playing an MMO, that's all I want to do.
In EQ, when I returned to play on the progression servers several times, it pretty much always went like... I play the game hardcore for a month or two and reached max level and started raiding. Realized I was addicted and it was consuming all of my free time/energy. Quit playing completely in order to come back to reality.
Repeating that cycle in Pantheon is always a fear in the back of my head. Hopefully, I can commit to a healthy balance and be able to play casually long term.
I will be enjoying the content of the game while lvl'ing up "blasting" I guess. I'll be a "no lifer" that will kill rats, bats, and orcs til I figure out it's time to inspect some dungeons. I'll learn all about the dungeon because I love exploring and killing the boss several times to make sure (we) have exhausted all the loot then move on, but I guess that's missing out on content. I like to know I have all the gear so I can effectively progress at any angle given to me. I don't think of myself as an "end game racer" but rather someone who enjoys exploring. (it sounds like a lot of you have different names for a player like me.) If I go mountain hiking; I never think to myself how cool it would be to take x days to the top. I want to be safe and take my time, yet I want to see the sunset when I get there. I hope I can go to town at lvl 25 without being in a forum about how I play my game while asking where the bank is. If I want to explore and find loot at the same time, please forgive me as a lvl or 2 might also happen while this progression thing we are all talking about may happen upon me. Maybe I have an idea of what I want and how the mechanics might be, or I'll figure it out and see it goes at another angle, but I will figure it out. It doesn't matter how I play my game; people will find something about me. Just because we can't lvl together doesnt mean I'm a bad guy. I may be the person who goes to town and give AOE buffs to everyone. I hope I'm not frowned upon for my speedy lving no lifer tactics. Regardless of how each of us play, It doesnt mean I've blasted content, have no life, or missing out on content. It may takes me a few days before I change my chat window and text color the way I like, but that's ok with me. I'll give you a /wave if I see you and pop a rezz if needed. Oh, it might have a stronger rezz than the one you're used to. I'm sure cherry picking disagreements won't be too harsh on someone like me.
As an admitted casual player who will play the game for as long as it is enjoyable regardless of my progression - I am still fully aware of differing styles of gameplay. I was introduced to EQ way back at the tail end of beta and testing out archery and water in Innothule Swamp.
All that aside - after having read through all of the contents on this subject I find myself not asking the question "what changes players from blasting to max level at launch?" but rather asking, "what makes the game enjoyable to have someone pay a subscription to keep playing once they have raced to and reached max level?"
Since at max level one can argue the only content that can be consumed for any sort of enjoyment is vastly diminshed (max level content only) and thus ripe for boredom from repeatability. Seems to me a one month subscription is all one can expect from someone who races to max level. Suppose double that time to two months to do the exact same thing over and over. Now what? Create an alt and do it again. Now we're at four months? Then what happens? Another alt? Leave the game until another expansion comes along?
So, as a casual player who may even be a regular player for small stints at a time can someone help me see how those that race to max level also do not leave the game but continue to pay the subscription same as others pay who have not reched max level? I'm not asking regarding players who race to reach max level and then leave the game; there will be casual players and regular players that will also leave the game - I'm not asking about those folks. I'm asking regarding players who race to reach max level and continue to support the game via ongoing subsciptions.
I'm never going to be one of those players. I don't even know anyone who is one of those players. As a member of the community who has a pretty strong pulse on what some of the players who will gravitate towards this game will be like, I really would like to know about other members of the community (whom I will be playing alongside with, albeit for only very short stints) for which I simply do not know. It's just such a foreign concept to me. What is it that keeps thise kinds of players interested?
Wellspring said:UnknownQuantity said:It is true you get advantage and prestige for getting to max level quickly, but at what cost? Did you get to enjoy the content while leveling up? I know for me personally I can start to feel sick and unhealthy if I play the game too that extent. I once stayed awake for over a day to get the jboots during a special event that was supposed to be the only way to get these boots and would end in a after a short period of time. I was fairly exhausted after this and slept for a few days. It was a fun experience, but not a healthy one. I also put in way to much time/hours solo grinding and didn't feel great. I often wish I hadn't put in so much time trying to be the best or find the best combination, stuck to one class, and liesurely played through the game so that I could enjoy the content a bit more. I don't think it the drive to get to find the best class and get to max quickly is something that I had initially. It is something that grew in me over time. I never did find the drive to raid a lot though. I guess to each their own.
I know what you mean about playing too much making you feel terrible. It's difficult for me to strike a balance between playing a game and everything else in my life. I think it's part of my personality to want to focus on one thing at a time. So if I'm playing an MMO, that's all I want to do.
In EQ, when I returned to play on the progression servers several times, it pretty much always went like... I play the game hardcore for a month or two and reached max level and started raiding. Realized I was addicted and it was consuming all of my free time/energy. Quit playing completely in order to come back to reality.
Repeating that cycle in Pantheon is always a fear in the back of my head. Hopefully, I can commit to a healthy balance and be able to play casually long term.
Very true.
I'm going to try and find a healthy balance this time as well.
Stephen said:... I don't really understand how they will stop the "incentive" of players from wanting to get max level fast and firing through the epic quest or raids available.
It's a challenging topic because any attempt to discuss innovative mechanics in this area is soundly defeated by the community defending denizens. It's already started with PRF, as it did/has with PFO and SOTA as well as others that have launched back to 1996. Once people get a preconceived notion in their head about how the game should be, any other ideas are dismissed or contradicted and logical deconstruction isn't even considered.
My point? Whatever incentives are offered by non-denizens won't be seriously considered at this point. The videos and dev posts to date have already culled out all that innovative thinking. Public perception is: reach max level, raid for no-trade. No matter what the web site says, no matter what the actual design goals are, that's public perception, wrong or right.
My experience recently with EQ1 TLP, as a monk: Leveling in a group was extremely fast. To the point where I was outleveling all my skills. I couldn't use my skills often enough to get enough skill checks for them to be capped out. Now, obviously, if the skill-up check curve had been adjusted this wouldn't be an issue, but evidently it hasn't been. Hence, you can get caught well behind the skill cap. But if you never solo (which you really shouldn't, given the XP bonus for grouping) then does it matter? I'm sure opinions will vary.
Here's a quick example:
It is technically possible to optionally and dynamically adjust all encounters to the level of a group. If a group of players wanted to stay in an area, to say, oh I don't know, collect colored mana widgets for Environmental Attunement? The group leader could optionally click a checkbox that says "Dynamic Challenge" which means as soon as you engage an encounter, no matter what your level, either you or the encounter are adjusted down or up to ensure you are challenged and gain experience. Via such a mechanic, players could adventure anywhere at their level or lower and still obtain a reward for their risk, as per the tenets.
All the responses from the entrenched close-minded community will be negative to such an idea, because in their minds, such a thing can't possibly be good for two reasons. 1) they've never seen it before, so it must be bad and/or 2) it's "just like" some other terribly implemented system that is the only thing they can think that's close, so it must be bad. The consideration that there is potential for innovative, fun, and challenging game play with such an idea is never considered.
There are a wide variety of techniques, mechanics, and systems that can encourage players to stay at a given level. A very simple one is the ability to turn off XP gain. What, you say? Why would such a feature ever be in a game? Well, for exactly this reason.. you can choose to NOT "blast to max level" and stay at whatever level you want. There's no indication Pantheon will have such an option, but it is a solution some players would use. Cue the denizens that will say "that's a bad idea because..."
Personally, I hope class-specific, unique and valuable skills & spells require Environmental Attunement to certain environments like Scorching, Pressure, and Freezing and more to reach perception points. However, if that's what it takes, then leveling simply becomes "do this quest here" which drives everyone into a bottleneck for one encounter. Hopefully VR has considered this, and for any Environmental Attunement objective, there will be at least three places in the world, for a given tier (10 level range) where that objective can be reached. Otherwise, it's going to be the Najena Jboots all over again.
Evoras said:I don't think EXP for killing a mob should ever be zero (while non-trivial = grey),
but simply link these reductions to 'achievements'.Achievement
Met an Orc (kill 1 Orc) = get 200% exp for first 5 kills each
Chaser of Orcs (kill 5) = after 5 reduce exp to 100%
Basher of Orcs (kill 50) = after 50 reduce exp to 90%
Orc Culler (kill 100) = after 100 reduce exp to 80%
Orc Killer (kill 500) = after 500 reduce exp to 70%
Orc Battler (kill 1000) = after 1000 reduce exp to 60%
Orc Slayer (Kill 5000) = after 5000 reduce exp to 50%
Orc Nemesis (get 'Slayer' for 5 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 25%
Orc Bane (get 'Slayer' for all 10 Clans of Orcs) = after reduce exp to 10%So killing more and more of the same type of mob leads to diminishing returns.
It does give shiny achievement badges though!, perhaps?
This is a horrible idea. Why would you get reduced experience for killing too many of something? It's going to take us millions of kills to hit cap so all this would do is drastically increase that number. There won't be enough different 'types' of mobs to continuously swap between them to keep the xp gains relevant. And even if there was, when you sit at cap for months, maybe even years, before an expansion drops you would be effectively hurting yourself leveling in the future.
muscoby said:As an admitted casual player who will play the game for as long as it is enjoyable regardless of my progression - I am still fully aware of differing styles of gameplay. I was introduced to EQ way back at the tail end of beta and testing out archery and water in Innothule Swamp.
All that aside - after having read through all of the contents on this subject I find myself not asking the question "what changes players from blasting to max level at launch?" but rather asking, "what makes the game enjoyable to have someone pay a subscription to keep playing once they have raced to and reached max level?"
Since at max level one can argue the only content that can be consumed for any sort of enjoyment is vastly diminshed (max level content only) and thus ripe for boredom from repeatability. Seems to me a one month subscription is all one can expect from someone who races to max level. Suppose double that time to two months to do the exact same thing over and over. Now what? Create an alt and do it again. Now we're at four months? Then what happens? Another alt? Leave the game until another expansion comes along?
So, as a casual player who may even be a regular player for small stints at a time can someone help me see how those that race to max level also do not leave the game but continue to pay the subscription same as others pay who have not reched max level? I'm not asking regarding players who race to reach max level and then leave the game; there will be casual players and regular players that will also leave the game - I'm not asking about those folks. I'm asking regarding players who race to reach max level and continue to support the game via ongoing subsciptions.
I'm never going to be one of those players. I don't even know anyone who is one of those players. As a member of the community who has a pretty strong pulse on what some of the players who will gravitate towards this game will be like, I really would like to know about other members of the community (whom I will be playing alongside with, albeit for only very short stints) for which I simply do not know. It's just such a foreign concept to me. What is it that keeps thise kinds of players interested?
The people who rush don't simply quit after beating the bosses a few times. The idea is to put them on farm status as fast as possible so that you can gear your entire guild collectively. So the key is to have as much end-game content as possible. I'm perfectly fine farming the same zones for 6 months with the idea that a harder zone will then be possible due to gear progression.