First of all i would like to say I LOVE the way this game is being designed and can't wait for it's release and this is in no way bashing the game. I have read through loads of topics tonight and searched about this and most people are saying stuff like "this isn't a game where you get to 50 and grind raids for the best gear". Well...how else would you get the best gear in the game without being max level and doing the post-level content? I mean maybe i'm missing something that was mentioned but is the best gear going to be available at level 30 or something to stop this? I don't really understand how they will stop the "incentive" of players from wanting to get max level fast and firing through the epic quest or raids available.
EDIT - Since this thread has got kind of popular I just want to say my title and what I said originally might be misunderstood. I am one of those players that always rush to max level and compete for world firsts/server firsts so I of course don't want them to stop people from doing it, because it is fun for us that enjoy it. But what I do want them to do is make it so if i'm playing 18 hours a day at launch that it will still take me 3-4 weeks to hit cap. I would actually want it to be longer but I understand that a lot of casual players would take years to hit cap and that is something they probably don't want so 3-4 weeks playing 18 hours a day seems reasonable to me. I'm just sick of playing mmo's in the past decade and hitting cap in 3 days...even though that is my own fault, it's still not fun or gives me a feeling of achievement. Even though it takes only a few days in most mmo's to hit cap playing a lot nowadays...that's still only like 2-3 weeks for a casual player which is still pitiful in my eyes. I guess we will have to wait and see around beta if it will take as much time as they say it will but I have heard too many stories from mmo devs in the past decade saying the same thing only for none of it to be truthful.
What will be available is the best item for this particular slot for this particular level. It will be up to you to not only find it but determine if it is the best item for you for that level for the content you are confronting. Remember the developers have said time and time again that gear will be situational. What is best for one area or one type of content will not be the best somewhere else. Your spear may be great against an armored orc but will be useless against that skeleton. That cold resist gear will not protect you in the depths of a volcano dungeon.
But what will stop players blasting to max level? Nothing. Some, like me, will do it regardless. It is what I enjoy doing. It is how I enjoy playing.
Presumably, because much of your character's progression takes place before max level. Unlike games where all your abilities are handing to you, and you have a very finite number of items to upgrade, your advancement in Pantheon is much broader.
For instance, the need for situational gear means more than one set of equipment is necessary for optimum performance. If you want to enter certain climates, you will need items for it. Similarly, you will need relics for unlocking colored mana. Again, presumably, not all of those items will be easily replaceable at max level. Like your class abilities, you will want to obtain them as you level up.
It's possible, and I would hope this is the case, that without progressing your character outwardly, it will become very hard - if not impossible - to progress upwardly.
I think the common thought is that with old school mmorpg like EQ, the leveling process was a very long and slow process. You couldn't log in and sprint to max level in a week or 2. Since leveling was so very slow, you didn't really focus on end game because it always felt so far away. Todays game you get an upgraded drop and you outlevel that gear in a few hours so it not worth even caring about it until end game. In old EQ, you got upgraded low level gear and you had it for days/weeks depending on how much you played.
There will still be end game racers, no way around that, but for the <40+ hr per week gamer, many of us are hoping for that slow leveling curve that makes end game feel distant enough that we won't be chasing it but enjoying the journey instead.
What people mean by this is that this game is going to be designed in a way that the game doesn't tell you what is max level content or not. No one will simply know anything. There won't be any guides. There won't be any quests leading you from one area to another. It is literally going to take months and months for people to figure out where everything is.
Combine this with the fact that the leveling pace is going to be much slower than other games. I'm talking after a week or so, you may be level 10 or 15. After three or four months, in your 30s, maybe 40s and after about 5 months or so, hitting max level. This is what I expect at least - as a player who plans to play 4-8 hours a day. Its going to take a lot of time for people to get there and also a lot of time for large enough groups of people to get there to accomplish this content, let alone find it.
And none of this 'best' gear is going to be easy to get. Its going to take raids and will NOT be instanced. A lot of items will be found by smaller groups and sold or used on the spot. So a lot of gameplay - at least from what I experienced in Everquest at max level was grouping and camping named mobs to sell a specific item they dropped or farming a certain mob that drops a high amount of gold to buy items I needed and hanging out with friends.
Well I doubt it will be fast to max level. But in answer to your question, Nothing. You are either about the Journey or not. So while it might take a while anyone that plans to go to max level ASAP so they can do endgame will do just that. If gear cant be crafted or cant be traded or bought, then that might force folks to do the low and mid tear dungeons and raids to gear up for the high level ones. But since that is not the case, Im not sure you can stop it.
@Dhampir
It's going to take people months to find out that level 50 is the release level cap? Lol, no. Your expectations for how long it's going to take are very unreasonable. I expect level capped players inside of a month, unless we're going full-Korea levels of grinding.
Believe it or not, the past two decades of experience with MMOs a lot of us have will be pretty applicable to Pantheon. It isn't such a different beast.
While Dullahan has a point of horizontal progression, I somehow doubt there won't be at least one relatively speedy route to cap.
Liav said:@Dhampir
It's going to take people months to find out that level 50 is the release level cap? Lol, no. Your expectations for how long it's going to take are very unreasonable. I expect level capped players inside of a month, unless we're going full-Korea levels of grinding.
Believe it or not, the past two decades of experience with MMOs a lot of us have will be pretty applicable to Pantheon. It isn't such a different beast.
While Dullahan has a point of horizontal progression, I somehow doubt there won't be at least one relatively speedy route to cap.
This. There will be people who no life the beta and plan the route to max level before launch. I doubt it will take 5 months playing 8 hours a day like it was back in classic EQ. Not because it will be easier but because mmo's are not new like they were for a lot of people back in 2000 and the mmo players nowadays have a much more focused and planned approach pre-launch than they did back in the day.
The different gear for different zones is something I forgot about aswell so thanks for the people bringing that up. That is a good point.
Btw I should of mentioned in my post but I have been following Pantheon for a couple years and only just started posting today so I'm not completely clueless about most things, I just wanted people to voice there opinions on what they think will happen. Regardless it doesn't matter to me if people decide to rush or take their time, to each their own I say.
Liav said:@Dhampir
It's going to take people months to find out that level 50 is the release level cap? Lol, no. Your expectations for how long it's going to take are very unreasonable. I expect level capped players inside of a month, unless we're going full-Korea levels of grinding.
Believe it or not, the past two decades of experience with MMOs a lot of us have will be pretty applicable to Pantheon. It isn't such a different beast.
While Dullahan has a point of horizontal progression, I somehow doubt there won't be at least one relatively speedy route to cap.
If I see people at max level inside a month I'll probably ditch this game. Because at that point this game is just as meaningless as the rest. I remember playing EQ - and having people TELL ME where the best places to go to group were and whatnot and it STILL took me months to reach 60 in Kunark/velious days. Hell I spent almost a solid month grinding between levels 30 and 35.
On the Time locked server Phinigel I was playing a bard and managed to reach early 40s after about a month and the exp rates are roughly four times faster than the original launch version of EQ with hell levels cut out entirely. So my assessment of how long it will take to level - if they go with established EQ-style rates is pretty dang accurate.
Its also something I really, really want.
Dhampir said:If I see people at max level inside a month I'll probably ditch this game. Because at that point this game is just as meaningless as the rest. I remember playing EQ - and having people TELL ME where the best places to go to group were and whatnot and it STILL took me months to reach 60 in Kunark/velious days. Hell I spent almost a solid month grinding between levels 30 and 35.
On the Time locked server Phinigel I was playing a bard and managed to reach early 40s after about a month and the exp rates are roughly four times faster than the original launch version of EQ with hell levels cut out entirely. So my assessment of how long it will take to level - if they go with established EQ-style rates is pretty dang accurate.
Its also something I really, really want.
I leveled both a Rogue and a Monk to 60 in less than a month starting fresh in Kunark. If the rates were 25% as fast as that, I could still probably have leveled one character to 60 in the same time if I gave it all of my focus instead of splitting it up between two characters.
I feel bad for you that other players consuming content faster than you would cause you to just up and quit the game. Taking a month to hit the 40s on Phinigel is pretty slow by my standards.
Don't take offense to anything I said here, because it's not intended that way. I just think your expectations are a little off.
If I see people at max level inside a month I'll probably ditch this game. Because at that point this game is just as meaningless as the rest. I remember playing EQ - and having people TELL ME where the best places to go to group were and whatnot and it STILL took me months to reach 60 in Kunark/velious days. Hell I spent almost a solid month grinding between levels 30 and 35.
On the Time locked server Phinigel I was playing a bard and managed to reach early 40s after about a month and the exp rates are roughly four times faster than the original launch version of EQ with hell levels cut out entirely. So my assessment of how long it will take to level - if they go with established EQ-style rates is pretty dang accurate.
Its also something I really, really want.
This is something different but I remember them mentioning in the december stream that the grind to not become hostile to a certain race won't be as harsh as it was in classic EQ. They said it will still be hard but not take as long as 5 months like it did in classic EQ. Going by this statement then it makes me think that the leveling will also not be as brutally long(nothing has been said, just my speculation and something for people to consider thinking about aswell).
Liav said:Dhampir said:If I see people at max level inside a month I'll probably ditch this game. Because at that point this game is just as meaningless as the rest. I remember playing EQ - and having people TELL ME where the best places to go to group were and whatnot and it STILL took me months to reach 60 in Kunark/velious days. Hell I spent almost a solid month grinding between levels 30 and 35.
On the Time locked server Phinigel I was playing a bard and managed to reach early 40s after about a month and the exp rates are roughly four times faster than the original launch version of EQ with hell levels cut out entirely. So my assessment of how long it will take to level - if they go with established EQ-style rates is pretty dang accurate.
Its also something I really, really want.
I leveled both a Rogue and a Monk to 60 in less than a month starting fresh in Kunark. If the rates were 25% as fast as that, I could still probably have leveled one character to 60 in the same time if I gave it all of my focus instead of splitting it up between two characters.
I feel bad for you that other players consuming content faster than you would cause you to just up and quit the game. Taking a month to hit the 40s on Phinigel is pretty slow by my standards.
Don't take offense to anything I said here, because it's not intended that way. I just think your expectations are a little off.
Sorry that I want the game to actually have meaning and feel realistic in terms of progress. If I blow through the entire game in a month - as I have every single MMO since Everquest - I'm going to lose interest extremely quickly. I'm not basing this off OTHER people hitting max level fast. I'm the type to focus on one game and play it exclusively. I'm usually among the first on a server to hit cap, and I lose interest fairly quickly after since modern MMOs aren't designed with staying power.
This game needs to be slower. It needs to put on the brakes and make you think about things before you do them. It needs to make people feel like they are part of the world. If the game is too fast, then players will feel like they have to be fast as well. Which causes the 'OMG RUSH RUSH RUSH' mentality most MMO gamers have in this day and age.
I guess what I'm saying is I need this game to be slow so I can feel like I don't have to rush. If the exp is slow enough where I can look at my friends list and think, "Hey. I can take today off from grinding and focus on selling or camping a mob for a drop I want and I won't fall behind at all." THAT is why I loved Everquest. I could make a decision like that and not have my friends blow through 2-3 levels and leave me in the dust.
All I'm saying is - it needs to be slow enough where the average player will not cap out in a single month. Hardcore players who have no job/play almost 20 hours a day - I'd say hitting cap after a couple months would be fine with me.
Dhampir said:Sorry that I want the game to actually have meaning and feel realistic in terms of progress. If I blow through the entire game in a month - as I have every single MMO since Everquest - I'm going to lose interest extremely quickly. I'm not basing this off OTHER people hitting max level fast. I'm the type to focus on one game and play it exclusively. I'm usually among the first on a server to hit cap, and I lose interest fairly quickly after since modern MMOs aren't designed with staying power.
Realistic progress sounds terrible. We'd be jiggling around in our mother's wombs for 9 months post-launch.
Except maybe Skar. I bet they lay eggs.
Even so, if it took you a month to hit early 40s on Phinigel I somehow doubt that you're among the first on a server to hit cap, unless that's just an outlier.
If you expect the top 1% of Pantheon's population to adhere to the expectations set forth by the average player, you're going to have a bad time.
Dhampir said:This game needs to be slower. It needs to put on the brakes and make you think about things before you do them. It needs to make people feel like they are part of the world. If the game is too fast, then players will feel like they have to be fast as well. Which causes the 'OMG RUSH RUSH RUSH' mentality most MMO gamers have in this day and age.
Taking a month for the top 1% of players to hit the first level cap is pretty slow, compared to the <24 hours it takes in most new games.
Dhampir said:I guess what I'm saying is I need this game to be slow so I can feel like I don't have to rush. If the exp is slow enough where I can look at my friends list and think, "Hey. I can take today off from grinding and focus on selling or camping a mob for a drop I want and I won't fall behind at all." THAT is why I loved Everquest. I could make a decision like that and not have my friends blow through 2-3 levels and leave me in the dust.
Your definition of slow is just removed from reality unless you want to play a Korean grind simulator.
If a modern MMO player teleported back in time to 1999 and played EQ from day 1, they would be max level in a month. No questions asked.
You're severely, severely understating the effects of how gaming mentality and experience has changed in the past two decades. We are not the same people we were. We're not naive.
Dhampir said:All I'm saying is - it needs to be slow enough where the average player will not cap out in a single month. Hardcore players who have no job/play almost 20 hours a day - I'd say hitting cap after a couple months would be fine with me.
I'm not talking about average players, so that's good.
You've simultaneously claimed that you're "among the first to hit the level cap in games", that "hardcore players who hit the level cap in a couple months are fine", and that "leveling too fast kills interest" for you. I'm sorry to say, but there's some mutual exclusivity here.
I guess this really depends on what is more powerful, levels or gear? I agree with dullahan in that from what I've seen so far, my guess is that if you blow through content just for the sake of getting to cap without really hitting dungeons and what not, that content is going to end up being extremely difficult. We'll see though. I'm happy either way. To each their own.
Nothing will stop people from flying to the end immediately, nor should there be. If that's what people want to do, let them. They will miss out on the enjoyment of the content. But, they pay for their sub and get what they want out of it.
My enjoyment is not dependent on their success being slower. I can enjoy my game without worrying that someone got to 50 faster.
Personally, I paid for the whole game. I expect to experience as much of it as I can. Even if I rush on one character, I can still create alts and enjoy what I missed at a slower rate. Best if both worlds.
brun said:I guess this really depends on what is more powerful, levels or gear? I agree with dullahan in that from what I've seen so far, my guess is that if you blow through content just for the sake of getting to cap without really hitting dungeons and what not, that content is going to end up being extremely difficult. We'll see though. I'm happy either way. To each their own.
Going back and doing that retroactively seems like a more effective use of time. You'll level faster, and higher levels will trivialize the acquisition of the earlier game things required for endgame. It's a win-win.
If they make it impossible to backtrack while simultaneously making the early-game stuff mandatory, then I have some bad news for the future of Pantheon. Fortunately, I doubt the devs are that shortsighted.
This thread has been reopened, please remain on topic and refrain from drifting into the power levelling discussion, as we already have two threads on that topic that can be found by using the search function.
Currently it is not *that* time consuming to hit cap on p1999 if you just follow the best / most popular route and have enough time to sit down for some long play sessions you can easily cap in a month. Once Alpha + Beta are done in Pantheon there will be a best route and depending on how they structure the game I would be very suprised if it took more than a month.
What I would personally like to see is a LONG journey to cap that is FUN and not a grind - I think they could achieve this by making it so you can't just sit in one dungeon for huge level blocks. For example you can sit in castle mistmoore from 20-40 without ever leaving, they need to avoid this like the plague if they want slow the game down and still make it fun. They can have a large level spread in dungeons but I think optimally you should only be able to stay somewhere for about 5 levels, then move on and maybe come back later to do another 5 level block once you're a higher level/more progressed. Having to travel around and see more of the world and experience different zones/mobs is what makes grinding experience fun. If you make it optimal to sit in one place for 50 hours people will do it, myself included, and i'd rather not have that be the fastest way to cap.
I'm excited to see how they impliment their horizontal progression and all this stuff about needing certain items to progress. I hope it delivers because it sounds great and could be a good solution to slowing the journey down without making it boring.
There was something I read brad say on mmorpg forums about maybe implementing a system where you needed to complete certain tasks in order to get past a certain level at various stages. This is something that would definitely stop hardcore people from reaching cap in under a week from the sounds of how it would work. I personally don't mind if certain players blast through the leveling content to cap really fast, if that is what makes them happy then it's fine by me but it is interesting to gain insight to how other people in the community feel about it.
Personally I will most likely be one of those no lifers that will do this mainly because I always strive to be one of the first to complete certain content and stay on top to be one of the best geared players on the server, it's what I enjoy doing and part of my competetive nature I suppose. But I also do want it to take a lot of time aswell though which I understand is hard to do nowadays for players like me but I hope it takes me atleast 300-400 hours even when trying really hard to go fast.
Edit - Just want to point out that the system Brad had talked about on the mmorpg forums is not set in stone and is something they "might" test in alpha/beta but is unsure since it restricts a players freedom to a certain extent which he isn't keen on doing unless it works well.
Even if there was a task to make you unable to advance past a certain stage, some players would blast through it in short order compared to others. The only real bottleneck that is impossible to overcome through effort would be a purely time based one, and I really don't want to see that.
Liav said:Even if there was a task to make you unable to advance past a certain stage, some players would blast through it in short order compared to others. The only real bottleneck that is impossible to overcome through effort would be a purely time based one, and I really don't want to see that.
This is true but to a certain extent the time will be increased naturally by making us have to do certain tasks in order to continue with the level grind which in turn adds more time onto reaching max cap.
Doesnt really matter what they do as others have said. I woud be very surprised if it took hardcore players a month. The first group to max will be accnt sharers on 12 hour rotations. Second group will be scheduled statics. This is what I do and almost all games in the past 7-8 years we could usually max with one or two hour naps and a few 40 hour binges. If it takes a month for us most payers will fall into the 8-12 month range or longer.
A lot of it depends on weather you were grouping and where you were grouping. The people who leveled up fast were usually grouping and often were killing difficult mobs in dungeons where they mobs gave more experience. If you soloed for large parts of the game it could take a while even with a good soloing class. Kill rate was quite a bit slower. As a Necromancer I didn't get to max level until PoP and I had started playing the game near the start of it. Much of that is because I ended up trying almost every class in the game to see what I liked.
You can not stop people from racing to end game. But by providing interesting content with desired rewards, you lessen the desire or need to reach end game just to have fun.
Many games today have very little point to the lower levels, they are nothing but an "extended" training period. The levels don't matter the items don't matter, the groups and relationships along the way don't matter.
Pantheon, will be slower progression, with zones/locations of interest, where most players will want to experience the area and the mobs. The slower pace builds relationships, and in turn those relationships and groups help the time pass without feeling like you need to rush. Friendships are started and group plans often become more about "What can we do fun tonight" and less about "How man we max our xp tonight".
For some, it will be a major change in attitude, and for others it will feel like home.
Games were always about social interaction going back to ancient times, and Pantheon will try to continue that.