Forums » Pantheon Classes

Magic vs Mundane classes

    • 2752 posts
    June 5, 2017 11:35 AM PDT

    I'd argue that removes options from the game honestly. We already have pure magic classes and hybrid magic/physical classes (Dire Lord, Paladin, and presumeably Ranger) so removing the "mundane" physical only options for players (Warrior, Rogue, Monk) would be more limiting than it would be adding diversity. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at June 5, 2017 11:35 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 5, 2017 5:32 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Youmu said:

    A non-magical warrior does NOT work out in a world filled with magical spellslingers in a sensical way. But something can be "magic" whithout looking like MAGIC, if you get what I mean. Go watch the movie Troy and remember that Achilles is effectively a next to immortal magic super human, but he doesn't look like it, he looks like a Warrior. Mundane is what the shopkeeper and farmer is, not the dragon-slaying badass which cleaves skulls of giants with a single blow.

    //Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie

    Well, I only used the term "mundane" as the OP defined it, basically a warrior without spell-casting abilities.

    I have no issue with Lore defining a warrior as powered by magic. Excuse me for the genre-crossing, but for me it's similar to Batman v. other Super-powered characters. Batman may not have easily visible super powers, such as flight, lasers out of his eyes, etc., but he is clearly still super-powered. His powers are his mind, skills, and equipment. He does quite well for himself in a world of visible super powers. 

    I view the warrior in the same way. They are the Batman of fantasy. The warrior class doesn't need to go around casting spells.  THEIR TOUGHNESS, EQUIPMENT, AND SKILL ARE THEIR MAGIC.

    So, I agree with your Achilles analogy. Call that magic, if you wish. But, I believe the OP was specifically refering to the actual casting of spells for warriors, which I am against, since we already have two other caster warriors. I think their should be an option for a non-caster warrior, which is what I believe the current system supplies.

    I haven't read the posts after this yet and will have to go back and catch up.

    BUT.

    In my mind now warriors need a utility belt and some batarangs.

    • 432 posts
    June 5, 2017 10:28 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    I'd argue that removes options from the game honestly. We already have pure magic classes and hybrid magic/physical classes (Dire Lord, Paladin, and presumeably Ranger) so removing the "mundane" physical only options for players (Warrior, Rogue, Monk) would be more limiting than it would be adding diversity. 

     

    Is it so hard to imagine Rogues making a pact with the night and the essence of shadows to fuel their stealthy ambitions? Or Monks wielding their spiritual essence as an unseen weapon which may turn any ordinary unarmed strike into something which carries the force of a battering ram? Is it so hard to imagine Warriors … able to grasp at a well of emotions and their powerful fighting spirit to be able to bend the odds in their favor by shaping reality in some small way, for just an instant, to do something unique that no other class can do.

    I started this topic to get people to think and perhaps loosen their grip on old tropes. If you can’t understand that physical has limits and magic has none, then I don’t know what to say. That has been one of the core concerns about this topic. Bringing up how easy it is to kill a caster in a mundane way doesn’t satisfy the fact that Magic is fathomless, endless, and everywhere and muscles and endurance only go so far.

    Just for the record, Monks to me are not mundane. Because of their Chi, Chakra, spiritual energy, they get to surpass the ‘normal’ and enter into the ‘fantastic’. I can’t wait to know more about their off-tank spec.

     

    -Todd

    • 2752 posts
    June 6, 2017 10:35 AM PDT

    I realize they COULD possibly do that and some could learn some kind of magic or whatever, but I am arguing that by forcing the physical classes into incorporating magic means those who prefer to eschew magic have no options in this game. 

     

    I mean it's also possible that magic isn't some force just anyone can tap into, maybe you are born with it or you aren't. Those who weren't become physical classes and those that are magically inclined become casters. 

     

    I get that magic has nearly infinite possibilites on paper, but what's the point of having any melee/physical classes at all if magic is all powerful and a better option? 

     

    I want to play physical, non-magic, classes. I like the idea of a warrior who has lived his entire life with a sword in hand and isn't impressed by magic. 

     

    Mages wield godly power, and are inherently frightening, but when it comes down to it, they bleed just like the rest of us. They tend not to see single warriors as a threat, and can be taken a back when they can push through pain and other barriers. You are comparing someone who can instantly get anything they could ever wish for with the flick of a wrist to someone who has fought tooth and nail for everything in their lives. There's so much more depth to their strength, and if you explore that, I feel like you'll find exactly what you're looking for to level the playing field. 


    This post was edited by Iksar at June 6, 2017 10:40 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 6, 2017 3:49 PM PDT

    tehtawd said:

    Iksar said:

    I'd argue that removes options from the game honestly. We already have pure magic classes and hybrid magic/physical classes (Dire Lord, Paladin, and presumeably Ranger) so removing the "mundane" physical only options for players (Warrior, Rogue, Monk) would be more limiting than it would be adding diversity. 

     

    Is it so hard to imagine Rogues making a pact with the night and the essence of shadows to fuel their stealthy ambitions? Or Monks wielding their spiritual essence as an unseen weapon which may turn any ordinary unarmed strike into something which carries the force of a battering ram? Is it so hard to imagine Warriors … able to grasp at a well of emotions and their powerful fighting spirit to be able to bend the odds in their favor by shaping reality in some small way, for just an instant, to do something unique that no other class can do.

    I started this topic to get people to think and perhaps loosen their grip on old tropes. If you can’t understand that physical has limits and magic has none, then I don’t know what to say. That has been one of the core concerns about this topic. Bringing up how easy it is to kill a caster in a mundane way doesn’t satisfy the fact that Magic is fathomless, endless, and everywhere and muscles and endurance only go so far.

    Just for the record, Monks to me are not mundane. Because of their Chi, Chakra, spiritual energy, they get to surpass the ‘normal’ and enter into the ‘fantastic’. I can’t wait to know more about their off-tank spec.

     

    -Todd

    Who says physical has limits? This is a fantasy world not bound by the constraints of reality. 

    Magic is fathomless but the caster themselves? They are not.

    The limitations of the physical disciplines could even have aspects of them that are supernatural, like your Chi example. However that aspect of the art is still learned through practice and rigorous physical and mental discipline. With a very heavy grounding in the physical aspect, it's not magic when a martial artist shatters a series of bricks.

    A fantasy world allows for the suspension of disbelief and it's entirely possible the mundane classes could do things one might call superhuman without magic.

    Hell if we compare ourselves to Olympic athletes the feats they accomplish almost seem magical (well at least in comparison to what I can do I don't know about ya'll) but they are not.

     Furthermore there are enough historical recounting of warriors and warrior monks doing feats of strength and willpower that most would define as impossible.

    So yes I think a warrior in the game could tap into something to gain power momentarily, but it wouldn't be magic.


    This post was edited by Sunmistress at June 6, 2017 3:52 PM PDT
    • 432 posts
    June 7, 2017 7:05 AM PDT

    Sunmistress said:

    tehtawd said:

    Iksar said:

    I'd argue that removes options from the game honestly. We already have pure magic classes and hybrid magic/physical classes (Dire Lord, Paladin, and presumeably Ranger) so removing the "mundane" physical only options for players (Warrior, Rogue, Monk) would be more limiting than it would be adding diversity. 

     

    Is it so hard to imagine Rogues making a pact with the night and the essence of shadows to fuel their stealthy ambitions? Or Monks wielding their spiritual essence as an unseen weapon which may turn any ordinary unarmed strike into something which carries the force of a battering ram? Is it so hard to imagine Warriors … able to grasp at a well of emotions and their powerful fighting spirit to be able to bend the odds in their favor by shaping reality in some small way, for just an instant, to do something unique that no other class can do.

    I started this topic to get people to think and perhaps loosen their grip on old tropes. If you can’t understand that physical has limits and magic has none, then I don’t know what to say. That has been one of the core concerns about this topic. Bringing up how easy it is to kill a caster in a mundane way doesn’t satisfy the fact that Magic is fathomless, endless, and everywhere and muscles and endurance only go so far.

    Just for the record, Monks to me are not mundane. Because of their Chi, Chakra, spiritual energy, they get to surpass the ‘normal’ and enter into the ‘fantastic’. I can’t wait to know more about their off-tank spec.

     

    -Todd

    Who says physical has limits? This is a fantasy world not bound by the constraints of reality. 

    Magic is fathomless but the caster themselves? They are not.

    The limitations of the physical disciplines could even have aspects of them that are supernatural, like your Chi example. However that aspect of the art is still learned through practice and rigorous physical and mental discipline. With a very heavy grounding in the physical aspect, it's not magic when a martial artist shatters a series of bricks.

    A fantasy world allows for the suspension of disbelief and it's entirely possible the mundane classes could do things one might call superhuman without magic.

    Hell if we compare ourselves to Olympic athletes the feats they accomplish almost seem magical (well at least in comparison to what I can do I don't know about ya'll) but they are not.

     Furthermore there are enough historical recounting of warriors and warrior monks doing feats of strength and willpower that most would define as impossible.

    So yes I think a warrior in the game could tap into something to gain power momentarily, but it wouldn't be magic.

    im sending this via mobile so i appologize in advance. Would rather use a computer.

     

    Holding onto an underdog mentality is what i have done for years, I dont do it anymore for this specific topic. I almost feel like im looking in the mirror at a past self with some of the responses ive read. I am understanding what it is you both are saying, but what I feel you are sharing is just assumption and hope. (maybe im doing the same?)

     

    No I am quite sure Physical has limits. Physical is rooted in reality while magic is not. And I agree there are superhuman feats which I have read and known about in our reality, but will we use those as the basis and starting point of our warriors? I doubt we will be seeing warriors cut projectiles in half or cutting fireballs in half, Monks touching somebody with an open palm and having them catch on fire or anything like that. 

     

    This again is all opinion. The developers have maybe already made their choice to abandon certain classes to a mundain existence arguing the same points as ive read here. Just know when the story gets told of Gods and Magic, sadly those who are without get left behind in the large scheme of things.

     

    Im truly sorry anyone feels attacked. But i know what that feels like when somebody pokes at something you love. Just know I am in the same boat after years of seeing Magic get a spotlight in the majority of movies, stories and games ive played. Its refreshing when the swordsman has their own unique magic unlike any other which contends and can overcome traditional magic.

     

    Hey. Has anyone watched the new King Arthur movie? I loved it!! I feel bad theres only one excalibur though.

     

     

     

    -Todd


    This post was edited by tehtawd at June 7, 2017 7:47 AM PDT
    • 279 posts
    June 7, 2017 8:17 AM PDT

    It's a fantasy world, nothing is grounded in reality. If we are going to use realism to critique mechanics, a real sword fight looks absolutely nothing like MMORPG combat or movies for that matter. 

    Also it looked warriors had a mana bar to me in the stream (I thought?) So this whole conversation could be moot.

    And the superhuman feats from reality should be the bare minimum jumping off point IMO.

    • 3237 posts
    June 7, 2017 6:17 PM PDT
    I would really like to see a "Martial" specialization for Warriors. Martial Warrior was a class in D&D and it definitely sounds like something I would want to play. It basically plays out like a Warrior/Monk hybrid. This would allow warriors the ability to harness the power of Chi or Chakra to bend the rules of physics. If you look at how the warrior is described on the class page, it basically screams a "Martial" specialization to me. Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your input. As someone who has mained a warrior in every MMO I have ever played (except FFXI) I agree that our class can use some extra flavor. Having a martial specialization would allow that, while still keeping the traditional warrior "feel" in tact.
    • 432 posts
    June 9, 2017 7:41 AM PDT

    It would be so cool to see Warriors able to put an elemental aura on their weapon. Im thinking like fire sword, lightning sword, ice sword. It even sounds fun to think about how they have to get that. They dont know the spells already, they have to dungeon crawl in the desert to get fire sword or whatever.

     

    -mobile.

     

    -Todd