Hi all,
Posting this in general because I feel it is not meant for just one class, or many classes, but more it’s a discussion on western vs eastern design and philosophies. If I am mistaken feel free to move this.
The reason I will not be playing a warrior for this game is due to a western style of design which still prevails over eastern design. Western themed warriors are mostly mundane and lack the aptitude that Crusaders and Direlords (and to some extent Rangers) have to using the forces of war in fantasy games: Magic.
Now I have read the developers say they plan on warriors utilizing magic, or using magic. But to what extent I don’t know and I am highly skeptical about the application. So far Bethesda’s ‘elder scrolls online’ does a good job with their ‘magic inside the melee’. This topic may seem harsh, but, I have seen western games do so badly in ‘bringing the magic into the melee’ that I would rather err on the side of caution here and just let loose the flood.
The western style would see us celebrate the weak, make excuses for the magical inept, and in the end have a class which neither has equivalent particle effects nor animations like other classes in the game. I am simply sick of ‘non-magic’ classes getting any kind of a class role in a ‘world of magic’. In a world of magic, those who cannot use magic simply are the grunts, the merchants, and the peasants.
WARRIOR
The Warrior seemingly defies limits of physical strength, ability and resilience. However, not content with fortitude alone, he also refines his mind, becoming a master strategist in battle.
I have heard people say Warriors use better armor than other classes. That they have magical enchantments on their armor and shields. That their gear is enchanted so heavily they can perform those ‘supernatural’ feats (I mean … otherwise it’s impossible, right?) and catch up to the magic wielding classes to stand toe to toe with them.
I have also heard it said a Warrior is always tactically superior to others. As though combat is something foreign to a monk or rogue.
Both of these things I have heard seem senseless to me. The armor one person wears can be worn by another. The weapons one person wields can be wielded by another. In order to engage in a fight and live to tell the tale is for you to be stronger and smarter than your opponent. This isn’t ‘warrior specific’ this is for any class and any race.
Warriors don’t need to ‘seem’ to be stronger, they just need to ‘be’ stronger.
When one calls upon magic to assist them, they defy laws of nature and physical strength. There is no 3rd party to reflect upon an event and say it ‘seemed’ they were stronger than a normal man. No, when magic is used it simply happened.
Request: Let warriors tap into magical forces like other classes. And let them tap into these forces ‘at will’. Let magic be an extension of their ability. Those mundane people in the world are merely just beginning their journey to becoming a ‘true warrior’. A journey which ends with them wielding of the essence of spirit and magic.
Let’s talk about developer budget a second.
One of the worst offenders of Magic Vs Mundane is Final Fantasy 1. A load of programing (money) and a hunk of the budget for Final Fantasy 1 went into spell design and spell effects. Classes like Cleric, Red Mage, and Black Mage got to use these spells and see their amazing particle effects (and they were BEAUTIFUL for the time). Having a ‘fighter’ in the group you did not get anything but a melee attack which was a shared animation for every single class. See the issue?
Where are the melee attacks that required just as much time and money? They don’t exist. Why is that? Call it what it is, structural prejudice and bad tradition.
Why would anyone want to play a class which simply has not had as much focus, care, and attention (budget) put into it?
When I play my Dwarf Crusader and use an ability which shows me doing the same melee strike as the warrior but mine has a cloud of gold splash out from the impact, and the warrior gets NOTHING for theirs, I will simply remember this thread I made.
This, like other posts, is an opinion based on my personal observations. I have come to these conclusions through my observations. While I doubt this opinion will change, it is possible I am wrong and I will be playing a warrior at launch (Yay!). I am opening up this topic for others to explain how they feel about Warriors and magic, for others to explain what it is they hope to get from warriors, and a place where developers can weigh in on their design for the class in terms of how magic affects their core.
The usual disclosure: Participaters in this discussion: let’s try to keep the flames down. It is ok to be passionate, just refrain from name-calling and insults.
Thank you,
-Todd
This is a topic which I think covers many aspects so forgive me if this will seem a bit wildly spread out on my part.
In the case of “non-magic” classes getting roles in a magical world I think is very misunderstood. As I see it the physical classes such as Warriors and Rogues are viewed as “non-magical” but they are not the same as “normal” people of the world. They posses powers beyond that capable of the normal populous. Instead of thinking of magic as flashy spell effects, I would instead think of it like Star Wars. It is The Force, you have the magical classes being all Palpatine and going electro-hands unlimited power on people and then you have the non-magical classes which uses this force in more subtle ways to do things like super-jump and whatnot, it is both magic but manifests itself differently, one is that of outer-strength, hurling fire ,and the other inner.
“The Warrior seemingly defies limits of physical strength, ability and resilience. However, not content with fortitude alone, he also refines his mind, becoming a master strategist in battle.” - VR description
I think this is a pretty good example of the way I described it above.
tehtawd said:
“The weapons one person wields can be wielded by another. In order to engage in a fight and live to tell the tale is for you to be stronger and smarter than your opponent. This isn’t ‘warrior specific’ this is for any class and any race. “
This specific passage you wrote I want to comment on specifically. Yes, weapons can be wielded by another, and yes anyone can try and be stronger and smarter than ones opponent, but the thing is that being good at those takes time, you don't just pick up a sword and become good at it, just like you don't just cast fireballs. It requires study and training. It is not “Warrior are the only ones that can do this” but more “You choose to become good with swords, that makes you a Warrior” kind of thing. Anyone possesses the capability to do magic, but how you magic and if you even choose to do it is what the difference is.
Though I do WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree on that melee classes (and ranged using bows and similar) need more animation love, having more diverse animation depending on your class would be desirable.
To try and summarize what MY opinion is and what I am trying to say.
Not “magic vs mundane”, but “Inner-magic vs Outer-magic”
The Classes is how one expresses this “magic”
More love to physical classes.
Id prefer to keep magical abilities away from non-magical classes. Take the druid and the ranger for example, both nature related classes but the ranger isn't magical. Id expect some sorta of tracking ability for both classes, but for the ranger I would think his skill would be in his experience at reading the details in the forest/ground, but a druid could simply cast a spell to show it.
“You choose to become good with swords, that makes you a Warrior” kind of thing.
Thanks for joining the conversation Youmu.
The quote above is touching on something I've heard so I wanted to touch base with it.
Some say when you choose to study the way of the sword it takes up all of your time and so there is no time for magic and this is the reason why you have a 'need' for the magic-less warrior to exist. The usefullness of a person who is a 'master' at something like swordsmanship is easily debatable. And there is a clear answer.
A mundane weapon master has limits. Magic has none.
This is one of the core reasons why people fall in love with magic. Magic is something you can't measure. It's something that can surprise you with its power and its diversity has no end. It is literally a fathomless power our creative minds can get lost in. The 'scale' of magic is increadible and i'm sorry to say, a weapon master, not wielding magic in any way, cannot hope to compete with that.
I firmly believe that every class is destined to fight in combat. And I also believe anyone who has trained in combat or martial arts knows you get trained hard in situations where the odds are not in your favor (in What-if situations). Think of the Enchanter or Shaman class not only learning to use magic, but learning to defend themselves up close and personal with people who may or may not use magic and learn to defeat those tactics in the way enchanters or shamans do. This kind of combat requires peak physical condition and a 'know-how' of armor, weapons and strategy.
If your Wizard is only a wizard so they can stay in a tower all day and study arcane, I doubt they will be any use on the battlefield. I would choose the wizard who became a wizard so they can FIGHT with magic. Their purpose of learning is to protect their allies and defeat their enemies no matter the terrain no matter how many come at them.
Personal story time. This really doesn't add to the conversation at all, but i'll put it out anyway.
In World of Warcraft I played a 'Warrior' for approximately 10 years. These last two years I have switched to 'Monk'. Monks can tank, and have that well of mysterious and magical power called Chi or Chakra. The Warrior had skills that pulled thunder from the sky, lifted them up when they shouted, shockwaves that uprooted the ground. The company 'Blizzard' never once told their players where all of that magical power came from. And when you see Warriors represented in their cinematics they merely are normal soldiers and never portray any of those 'magical looking' abilities. Sure, the game is made fun by those abilities for warriors, but when it comes to imagining books or a full length featured film, you will NOT see any of those abilities, because they are impossible for the 'western' themed warrior. This to me is a tragedy. I was yanked around for years believing the warrior had spells and was so much more than just a soldier. Charging faster than an arrow, leaping and uprooting the ground, calling down lightningbolts, shattering the unbreakable shields paladins and mages created ... its the stuff of legends! But the reality was these were 'balance' changes. Things for players to play a game. Nothing more.
This destroyed my immersion completely.
You see I want something more than the soldier. I want that fighter, that warrior to reach out and grasp something deeper than just a weapon or a tactic. Something they can reach out to which has no limits, that will surprise me with its endless potential and know the only limit is my characters relationship and knowledge with that force.
Youmu, you hit it right on the head when you talked about 'The Force'. Good post.
-Todd
There are already plenty of magic using options. Why not just play one of those?
Not every class needs magic. By making all the tank classes or all the DPS classes use magic, the people who prefer non-magic are screwed out of a choice. It would be great to have a non-magic healer, but no one wants to wait a week or two to be healed.
Some people just like "mundane" classes. Some don't. Let choices exist.
Agree with Beefcake. The premise of the OP is kind of ridiculous. Magic-using types getting stabbed in the back with nothing but a simple dagger is a very historic part of the genre. Seems silly to me that non-magic using classes would be useless next to magis-using unless the devs are just incompetent.
Hi Beefcake and Liav,
I will be fine with there being mundane classes because I have the option of picking Crusader and Dire Lord. I understand some people enjoy the non-magic users, nothing wrong with that. I am merely bringing a perspective to the table. Considering the scope and magnitude of magic within a fantasy world like this, does it make sense that any class be mundane? I don't think so. It makes more sense to me that all classes use magic abilities.
-Todd
I think the big difference here is that those soldiers you talk about are warriors but they are not Warriors, with capital W badassery, the very generic term of warrior/fighter that RPGs' use makes this kind of problem. When you think of someone like Varian Wrynn from WoW you do get something more than just "another soldier".
I think a problem with magic and how it is many time depicted in fantasy in general is that it is this thing with no rules, a Deus Ex Machina that apparently only works or is used when the story says it will and then you need to find some bullshit reason for them to not have used it before.
And to turn it the other way around a bit. Think if the Warrioe or Rogue class not only could fight expertly in melee but also learning to use "magic". The thing is, if they learned magic they would no longer be Warriors or Rogues, neither would the Enchanter feel like an enchanter if he was sporting plate armour and a poleaxe. This is why I dearly hope VR comes with some sound lore reasons why something like this wouldn't happen, why would a Wizard not use plate(Given they are not able to, like traditionally)?
And I imagine that the Wizards WE play are not the same as other Wizards. Where other Wizards sit in their tower and study the arcane or whatever heresy, we the players are not the same, we have chosen to fight for one reason or the other and therefore made our magic suit that task.
And I would look at the physical classes less as "mundane weapons masters" and more like a Jedi. Now I hope this would also be better communicated as I feel these kind of "magical" powers which physical classes posses are many times kind of hidden, needing to be read between the lines, which is why the more conventional magical classes with flashy effects and the word MAGIC printed on their foreheads and everywhere else is easier to make out and therefore love.
tehtawd said:Hi Beefcake and Liav,
I will be fine with there being mundane classes because I have the option of picking Crusader and Dire Lord. I understand some people enjoy the non-magic users, nothing wrong with that. I am merely bringing a perspective to the table. Considering the scope and magnitude of magic within a fantasy world like this, does it make sense that any class be mundane? I don't think so. It makes more sense to me that all classes use magic abilities.
-Todd
How much sense it makes is entirely up to the discretion of the developers and the way the lore of the game is written.
If those who become Warriors are simply those who are born incapable of using magic and thus train specifically to become purely physically powerful beasts, then yeah, it makes plenty of sense.
If those who become Rogues are those who passed up magical knowledge to instead learn to make poisons and be highly agile, lightning fast acrobatic fights, then yeah, it makes plenty of sense.
Magic doesn't necessarily mean that you become a god who can single handedly destroy any opposition unless the lore specifically supports that. Magic users come with their own disadvantages, and in these games it usually means a lack of physical prowess in favor of mental prowess. Within the lore I'd say there's plenty of room for either.
I would personally be disappointed if every class had to have some form of magic because it'd feel like homogenization to an extent, even if it was small.
Edit: Damnit Youmu, you beat me to it.
Also lets have a silly "thought experiment" where I'll try to use some semblence of logic to solve this magic. Talking mostly about magic in games.
Lets take one of the most iconic abilities of magic casters, the fireball.
You throw a fireball at a Warrior and he loses HP, now imagine what that actually means.
You just spewed FIRE, like a flamethrower onto a person, and they didn't die!
What could this mean? Some conclusions which I find plausible.
A) Warriors are not any normal person and exceed that of any regular mortal.
B) Magic plain sucks at actually damagin stuff.
And to tell the truth, I would say B is the more likely answer most of the time, for you are throwing those fireballs or whatever on all sorts of mundane crap like regular bandits and rabbits. Meaning magic kind of sucks at fighting. Compare a fireball like that to teleporting across the world, and you see what it means to actually be a wizard I think.
Taking it back to old D&D, Wizards were not fighters, they were not there to kill stuff. They were the one trick solution to REALLY hard tasks.
BUT, I find option A much more appealing. Having someone so awesome that they can just shower in flames and come out unscathed and charging at you is much cooler.
When you think of someone like Varian Wrynn from WoW you do get something more than just "another soldier".
I wouldn't have picked any warrior from WoW, even Varian is mundane just like any other soldier (Boy do they make him look good though). WoW's cinematics, movies and books never portray the abilities the in-game warriors have. Their warriors are magic-less things. Which is fine if thats what you want. I personally don't like it, and this entire thread is to push a conversation up to find out how much magic we will see with classes that are in western cultures more traditionally non-magical.
Hey guys, I'm pretty passionate about this, so I appologize if its upsetting. I hope you don't get too angry with me for expressing how I feel here. I'm not trying to attack anyone. I know some of you may be attached to the traditions i'm bringing up, but I am certainly not and want to talk about alternatives and re-visit why things are the way they are. The more we talk about it, the more we get to think about it. Does it really make sense to have non-magical classes exist in a game where Magic is one of the fundamental forces at work? If Magic is everywhere and so fundamental, how easy is it to use? When you make a character ... are you not making a character to eventually become one of the paragons of your race? If this is the case, wouldn't magic play an important role?
Seems simple to me to incorporate magic into every class in some way. Just how much does depend upon the developers.
And I would look at the physical classes less as "mundane weapons masters" and more like a Jedi.
I would LOVE to play a Jedi like class. I like where your frame of mind is in terms of those classes. We will have to see if the VR devs make classes which have enough of that mystical power so they feel that way.
Magic users come with their own disadvantages, and in these games it usually means a lack of physical prowess in favor of mental prowess. Within the lore I'd say there's plenty of room for either.
I'd like to challenge that trope. I did competative gaming back in 2006 and have always had an interest in the competative gamer scene. These players have very sharp minds and reaction time. Now here is the funny thing. Players who spent some of their time excercising, eating right, and staying fit, from a medical point of view, have higher mental function and therefore are better gamers. Translating over to this discussion I would say that somebody who is at peak physical condition is better suited to learning and using magic effectively than somebody who does not care about their health.
Thanks for the responses.
-Todd
I've not read any of the WoW litterature, but I can't imagine how one would mention these kind of things in a good way through text in a story, but stuff like the epic sagas of the viking poems and Illiad comes to mind when describing a Warrior. These mythically strong and skilled fighters with no fear ready to slay any opponent. I mostly used WoW as an example for you mentioned it but something like Hercules or Achilles probably fits better.
The trope of Magic users lacking in physical health is something I don't especially like (though I've seen this explained by making magic basically drain your physical life). "Mens sana in corpore sano", Healthy mind in a healthy body and I have to agree, but there is nothing stopping the Warrior from doing the same really, and if magic is only for the selected few I would imagine others, more mundane folks would had figured stuff out to fight against it.
tehtawd said:Does it really make sense to have non-magical classes exist in a game where Magic is one of the fundamental forces at work? If Magic is everywhere and so fundamental, how easy is it to use? When you make a character ... are you not making a character to eventually become one of the paragons of your race? If this is the case, wouldn't magic play an important role?
Seems simple to me to incorporate magic into every class in some way. Just how much does depend upon the developers.
-Todd
Your claim that it doesn't make sense to have non-magical classes when magic is fundamental, does not hold with me.
For example, Forgotten Realms from RA Salvatore (Dungeons and Dragons). It's pretty traditional, magic-filled world. Yet, two of his main characters are quintessential warriors and not magical, Wulfgar the Barbarian and Bruenor BattleHammer. They do quite well in a magical world.
They may wield magical items, but are otherwise "mundane".
There is plenty of room for non-magical warriors in fantasy.
Not too mention that I am all for variety of playstyles. If you want Arcane magic added to a warrior, you have the Dire Lord. If you want Divine Magic added to a warrior, you have the Paladin. The warrior provides a choice outside of magic for those that want it.
Although I will not play a non-magical tank, I will definitely argue for others the ability to make that choice.
Well Beefcake, I think you can't deny that D&D is a terrible example as the world of D&D makes little to no sense with magic imo. Magic in that world is just used stupidly. Think of having a way to instantly send a message to your army with no messanger required or to teleport forces, the power of magic and its influence on logistics and tactics is something rarely explored and where it would be a HUGE factor.
A non-magical warrior does NOT work out in a world filled with magical spellslingers in a sensical way. But something can be "magic" whithout looking like MAGIC, if you get what I mean. Go watch the movie Troy and remember that Achilles is effectively a next to immortal magic super human, but he doesn't look like it, he looks like a Warrior. Mundane is what the shopkeeper and farmer is, not the dragon-slaying badass which cleaves skulls of giants with a single blow.
Youmu said:A non-magical warrior does NOT work out in a world filled with magical spellslingers in a sensical way. But something can be "magic" whithout looking like MAGIC, if you get what I mean. Go watch the movie Troy and remember that Achilles is effectively a next to immortal magic super human, but he doesn't look like it, he looks like a Warrior. Mundane is what the shopkeeper and farmer is, not the dragon-slaying badass which cleaves skulls of giants with a single blow.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie
Well, I only used the term "mundane" as the OP defined it, basically a warrior without spell-casting abilities.
I have no issue with Lore defining a warrior as powered by magic. Excuse me for the genre-crossing, but for me it's similar to Batman v. other Super-powered characters. Batman may not have easily visible super powers, such as flight, lasers out of his eyes, etc., but he is clearly still super-powered. His powers are his mind, skills, and equipment. He does quite well for himself in a world of visible super powers.
I view the warrior in the same way. They are the Batman of fantasy. The warrior class doesn't need to go around casting spells. THEIR TOUGHNESS, EQUIPMENT, AND SKILL ARE THEIR MAGIC.
So, I agree with your Achilles analogy. Call that magic, if you wish. But, I believe the OP was specifically refering to the actual casting of spells for warriors, which I am against, since we already have two other caster warriors. I think their should be an option for a non-caster warrior, which is what I believe the current system supplies.
I agree totally Beefcake. Not everyone needs to cast stuff but I do think there is room for improvement when it comes to effects and animation for such classes. For here I am, a Warrior trained and dedicated my life to the art of combat and the weapons used in it, and the way I swing and use my weapons is not in any way more refined, technical or skillful from when an Enchanter swings their weapon, it is a little dissapointing, if I play a martial class, it should feel like it imo. Casters get more love in the visual department, no doubt about it and it shouldn't have to be like that, hell I even made an entire post about resources for melee.
I just realized this might have been better done as a request for a new class. I mean in the interest of preserving the current strategy it makes sense. Thanks for the responses guys.
Youmu, I am very impressed with your responses. Namely because I have only had bad experiences from people in Voices of Terminus. Its nice to read well articulated thoughts without a toxic touch. Thanks.
-Todd
I think this might had fit better in the general "Pantheon Classes" category but I think it would get less attention and as it is here now, what the heck just go for it.
Thank you, I try to keep myself to some kind of "philosophical" standard or whatever. Sad to hear you've had such experiences with the guild but I think the forums overall (the internet really) have a slight "touch" of toxicity and elitism of some sort going on, but that is just the way things are.
I don't think a class needs magical abilities to be fun. One of my favorite classes in EQ was the Monk which had no magic at all.
I do like magic hybrids like ShadowKnight/Ranger/Paladin though.
But I want Pantheon to stick to Western designs which are usually based in D&D roots.
Neither do I but the line of what is magic/super power/enhanced properties lies are usually very small in fantasy. Take the Witcher series as an example, Geralt (not including signs) is not really magically looking, but the way he fights and moves is extrodinary and flashy, it is "magical", but not in the way a Mage is magcal.
Arcane, Nature caster, Divine spellcasting is all essentially Magic, and so is the extreme streanght of a Warrior or the speed of the Rogue, they are fantastical. I don't want a Monk casting an Ice Nova, but I want them to be fantasticall and magical in their own way.
Youmu said:Thank you, I try to keep myself to some kind of "philosophical" standard or whatever. Sad to hear you've had such experiences with the guild but I think the forums overall (the internet really) have a slight "touch" of toxicity and elitism of some sort going on, but that is just the way things are.
//Voices of Terminus' Youmu/Svartie
Stay the way you are friend. This wasn't forum activity but from a video titled: 'Pantheon Rise of the Fallen Voices of Terminus Show #3 The Cleric'
Working with people all my life I know how communications throught distance and with any amount of anonymity has a much higher chance of 'drama'. I think when we keep that risk in mind it helps us behave better. Age you would think is a big contributor towards 'negative behavior on the internet', but in this case it was someone my senior. Just goes to show you anyone can fall down. I think its how often you fall down and what you do to get back up that determin your moral stature.
Something to say on topic.
Please be careful with the homonization discussion popping up. This is asthetics we are talking about, not changing gameplay. The races are all different and wonderful, I want the same for the classes. Each class fulfilling a unique role and also having unique spell effects or animations. This helps my imersion greately. I am not suggesting warrior be a carbon copy of a wizard but casting 'shoot sword'. Wasn't that a Guild Wars 2 class? hehe..
-Todd
I think I know what you are talking about and can say there have been changes.
Ye, I too came in from the belief we were strictly speaking from a lore and visuals perspective. But as much as people seem to like to bash on GW2 (And everything that is not EQ, EQ2 or Vanguard. Cmon ppl, be open) they had some damn cool class concepts imo and I think conceptuallly from the Guild Wars series a lot can be learned, some pretty unique stuff.
So visually speaking I want better and specially tailored animations for the physical classes and I want lore reasons explaining stuff like why a Summoner would no wear plate or how a Warrior can in any way measure up to a Wizard or Crusader in power, Good, thought out lore reasons please.
This has been moved to "Pantheon Classes" as it directly relates to classes and is better suited there as it is a specific subforum for all class discussions.
This is also highly opinion based, so please keep that in mind when discussing the points for and against, no one can be right or wrong here as it is very much a personal preference but by all means enjoy the discussion. ;)
My take on why warriors and other non-magical classes work and thrive in a magical world is because magic is...hard. Someone who devotes himself to physical prowess, strength, dexterity, and agility can definitely excel vs magic/casters because (in most fantasy universes I have seen) casting isn't like "The Force" from Star Wars. It takes time to cast spells, often involving words that must be spoken, gestures done, reagents prepared, and/or sigils to be drawn. On top of that, magic can be stopped. A bolt of fire or ice can be blocked by a shield, entangling roots can be chopped, etc. Then you can take into account magically imbued weapons and armor employed by those otherwise devoid of magic, which furthers their abilities towards the magically inclined.
A wizard casting a spell can be stopped before he manages to get it off, 3+ seconds casting can be a lifetime. A warrior throwing an axe or charging the wizard, anything could happen. Basically, anything can happen, anyone can succeed. Sure you could get ambushed by a wizard who precast or is out of range but that same wizard could just as easily get surprised by a dagger wielding rogue or a warrior hiding behind a rock, or an arrow through the trees.
Iksar said:My take on why warriors and other non-magical classes work and thrive in a magical world is because magic is...hard. Someone who devotes himself to physical prowess, strength, dexterity, and agility can definitely excel vs magic/casters because (in most fantasy universes I have seen) casting isn't like "The Force" from Star Wars. It takes time to cast spells, often involving words that must be spoken, gestures done, reagents prepared, and/or sigils to be drawn. On top of that, magic can be stopped. A bolt of fire or ice can be blocked by a shield, entangling roots can be chopped, etc. Then you can take into account magically imbued weapons and armor employed by those otherwise devoid of magic, which furthers their abilities towards the magically inclined.
A wizard casting a spell can be stopped before he manages to get it off, 3+ seconds casting can be a lifetime. A warrior throwing an axe or charging the wizard, anything could happen. Basically, anything can happen, anyone can succeed. Sure you could get ambushed by a wizard who precast or is out of range but that same wizard could just as easily get surprised by a dagger wielding rogue or a warrior hiding behind a rock, or an arrow through the trees.
Some of the discussion here seems to be about how a mundane class can still win against a magic using class. And while that is ok to discuss (even the title seems to beg for it) I would rather people be more focused instead of what a mundane class gains when they gain magic.
Think of a Ranger who doesn’t cast spells, or a druid who does not cast spells. It’s a bit of a shock to think of it I know. Adding magic completes the class, it allows supernatural to be accomplishable and adds a realm of diversity. I think this is important to think about when looking at the Warrior class. Adding magic to their skills and abilities can add more depth to the vision of the class just as it is with the Monk class.
-Todd