*Edit -- This idea has evolved over time. I have included the most recent version of the concept near the end of this post.
This idea comes from one of my favorite RPG's of all time, Lufia 2, but is obviously modified in a way so that it could work for an MMO.
I'm not sure how hard something like this would be to implement, but I imagine a lot of people would have a ton of fun with this.
"Cave of Wonders" or "Eternal Dungeon" are some names that come to mind, but basically here's how it would work: At some point later in the game there would be a zone that harbors an ancient tribe that guards a dungeon, and after building enough faction with them, they will sell you a temporary passage rite to enter their dungeon. The dungeon would be designed for a group (maybe this can be scaled for raiding too, that would be great) and upon entering, everybody would start off with zero equipment or items. There are 4 tiers of loot for this dungeon, which can be found in chests or drop from mini bosses/names/trash/etc and they are all EXCLUSIVE to ONLY this dungeon except the T4 artifacts (not gear, a collectible item), meaning they cannot be used anywhere else in the game. Tier 1 loot is generally going to be lower end armor/items (scales based on the floor you loot them from)that disappear when your passage rite is over, which is basically when your group "wipes." Tier 2 loot would be considered above average gear, but it becomes soulbound to your character while still remaining exclusive to this dungeon. This means when your group dies and you are removed from the zone, the T2 loot is added to your "Cave of Wonders Exclusive Loot" whereas when you reenter the zone, you'll start with that piece of gear every time. Tier 3 loot has the same restrictions and advantages as T2, but rather than being "above average" the item would be more like Best in Slot. Again, once you leave the dungeon, you don't bring any of this stuff with you. T2 and T3 loot are soulbound to your character and are equippable any time you return to the dungeon, but never outside of it. Tier 4 loot are the rarest of all, a collection of 20 artifacts that when completed, you are awarded with some sort of treasure haul from the tribe that could be used anywhere in the game. This could be a combination of an awesome mount, plat, rare spell, or some sort of cool trinket. Whatever, make it epic, because this quest should be extremely difficult to complete. You may even be able to make these tradeable, but they can only be redeemed as a full set.
Now that we know how the loot would work, let's talk a little more about the dungeon itself. The dungeon has 100 floors. Every time you pay your passage rite (this could be a huge plat sink if one is needed) you gain a 1 time entry into the dungeon. You always start off with zero gear/items, unless you have looted T2-T3 loot in previous dungeon runs in which case you would start off with those items, giving you an instant boost to your ability to progress deeper into the dungeon. The mobs would scale in difficulty, getting harder and harder the deeper you go. Once you get to level 20 or so the difficulty of the dungeon becomes noticably harder. Eventually it becomes so difficult that it's almost impossible to advance unless your group is fairly decked out with T2-T3 loot, and in the deeper levels (around 50-60) even a decked out group may have a hard time advancing to the next floor. The encounters should get so hard that there is a very real chance that if you run into the wrong type of mob, your group is going to wipe. A level 60 fire dragon for example ... better hope your tank has a T3 fire resist item or 2 or it's insta death.
Once you get to level 100, you unlock a special instance for the final boss that has a 1 week lockout once it's killed. This allows the devs to tune the encounter to be appropriately hard but still give the players a chance to actually have a chance to learn it. Making it all the way to floor 100 just to fight the super mega boss that will inevitably kill you obviously wouldn't work because of how extreme the death penalty is inside the dungeon. I'm not going to delve too much into this part because I'm sure the devs could have plenty of fun planning how the encounter would work and what type of reward would be given to those who can fell this legendary beast. It should be an epic achievement and the reward(s) could be used in the regular world.
Anyway, I don't want to invest too much more time or effort into this idea because I realize that there are a ton of potential pitfalls and issues with making something like this work. I figured it was cool enough of a concept to at least bring it up on the forum and see what the community thought ... is something like this possible in an MMO?
Every floor would be completely random every time you enter the dungeon. There is no linear path to find the exit on each floor. There are tons of corridors, doors, rooms, traps, fake chests, fake exits (real exits are a portal, fake exits look the same but instead of advancing you to the next floor of the dungeon, you get ported to a different location on the same floor.) Each floor varies in size, whether or not chests (or mini bosses, names) would be present, and how many lurking monsters there are. You could even change the dungeon art/music every 20-25 levels where it starts to get considerably harder, providing both an audio and video sense of progression as you delve deeper and deeper into the dungeon. (Can add more dungeon levels with expansions to keep the zone relevant)
I think abilities like stealth, mezz, charm, traps, etc, could be very important. Each floor isn't going to be a matter of just killing everything. Many times it would be smarter to avoid a fight if possible, but this gets increasingly harder the deeper you go. Mobs would have bigger LoS range, faster movement speed, etc.
I could see something like this being insanely fun and with high replayability. People are going to want to acquire as much T2-T3 loot as possible to be better equipped to survive the deeper levels, and all T4 loot would have a pretty good value as well. People could save up for their own collection of 20, or sell individual pieces off on the auction house, donate to guild, etc. But the T4 stuff needs to be super rare. Anybody who is able to get their hands on all 20 artifacts should have a really awesome reward in their hands and probably a title to go with it.
Anyway ... it's late and I'm about done here. I realize something like this is probably impossible to implement into an MMO, but maybe a couple pieces of this idea could be utilized for future content. I for one would be a huge fan of content like this. But then again, I'd also like to see the card game from FF8 in here as well. But that's an entirely different subject ... but seriously, how cool would it be to have a mini-game inside the game? When nighttime comes around and the spooky monsters come out to play, people could instead recover in the safety of their campfire and enjoy a good card game against each other. I know there is going to be scheduled downtime to help influence social immersion, and I feel that something as simple as the card game from FF8 would be perfect. People could trade cards, wager them in card battles, or just battle for fun. Look how successful Hearthstone is ... it doesen't have to be anything THAT deep, but it could still be a pretty cool mini game.
Thoughts? Comments?
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*Edit -- The idea has evolved over time and I am going to link a copy of the most recent revision below. Feel free to check through the entire thread if you would like to see how the idea has evolved but as far as future comments or feedback is concerned, please base it on the following version:
Gauntlet of Diffusion -- (GoD)
Design Goals:
Create a challenging dungeon crawl experience centered around high replay value and dynamic combat.
Utilize long-term, GoD exclusive vertical progression as an opportunity for players to unlock purposely limited yet tangible progression for characters that complete the dungeon.
Recycle existing game assets in order to achieve maximum content value with minimal design effort.
Create an effective gold-sink that can help with staving off inflation.
Allow hardcore players an avenue to invest high playtime without contributing toward any significant gap in power between them and the larger player base.
Create an epic dungeon experience that allows players an opportunity to affect temporary change into the world.
Create a leaderboard that allows competitive players to ascend a ranked ladder that doesn't contribute toward the idea of competition for resources in the game world.
Dungeon could be expanded upon with future expansions.
Dungeon Design:
The dungeon would consist of 7 wings that share a single, expansive floor plan.
Each wing would contain it's own audio/video elements that grow progressively more foreboding.
Each wing would contain a different pool of NPC's and itemization to randomly draw from, scaling in difficulty/quality.
The difficulty scaling for each wing would include more atmospheres, environmental effects, or traps not seen in prior wings.
As you progress through each wing, more dispositions would be added to the NPC pool.
Movement speed, aggro ranges, and detection methods would fluctuate depending on NPC type.
To expand on the above, think of drakes that can cover long distances in short periods of time, beholders that can see through invis, or wolves that can detect you from an increased range.
Every NPC serves as a place-holder for lottery spawns, meaning that every respawn has a very small chance to spawn as a named.
The final room for each wing would contain a teleportation device that can only be activated by defeating a force-spawned gate-keeper.
Dungeon Rules:
An admission fee must be paid by each player prior to entering the dungeon.
Upon entering the dungeon, each player would be outfitted in starter gear. (They retain their level.)
If a group wipes, they are removed from the dungeon and have to restart at the entrance on their next run.
Players can attune themselves to teleportation devices, allowing them to save their progress, exit the dungeon, and pick up where they left off when they return.
In order to attune to a teleportation device, players must conquer the unique gate-keeper associated with it.
T2 chests have a chance to drop a "Providence" item. These can be used to summon a player to a teleportation device that they have previously attuned to, consuming the item in the process.
The dungeon utilizes a unique progression model for itemization. (Explained in next section.)
Itemization Progression Model:
Loot would be divided into five colored tiers.
T1 (Red Chests) -- T1 loot would include gear and consumables ranging in quality from poor to average. T1 loot is considered temporary and will disappear from player inventories if they wipe and fail the dungeon.
T2 (Green Chests) -- T2 loot would include gear and consumables that are higher quality than what can be found in red chests, ranging from good to great. T2 loot is considered temporary and will disappear from player inventories if they wipe and fail the dungeon. (The only exception to this rule is the "Providence" item which would not disappear. It is consumed upon use, though.)
T3 (Blue Chests) -- T3 loot would include gear that ranges in quality from good to great. T3 loot is considered soulbound to GoD. T3 loot cannot be taken with you outside of the dungeon, but will return to your inventory when players re-enter the zone in the future.
T4 (Purple Chests) -- T4 loot would include gear with an excellent quality score. T4 loot is considered soulbound to GoD. T4 loot cannot be taken with you outside of the dungeon, but will return to your inventory when players re-enter the zone in the future.
T5 (Gold Chests) -- T5 loot would include tradeable collection items. T5 collectibles are the only items that can be taken out of GoD. There is a collection merchant outside of the dungeon that is willing to trade a prestigious item for a full set of these items. (It's possible to create multiple "sets" of these collection items with each set qualifying for a different prestigious item. These prestigious items would be cosmetic in nature and could include mounts, cloaks, illusions, pet illusions, and house items.)
Final Thoughts:
Itemization would ideally be balanced around a "situational gear" ideology. All the way up to T4, the ceiling for any individual piece of loot would be situational.
In order for the above to be true, a wide variety of combat situations would need to be present in the dungeon, ranging from atmosphere, environment, and resistance.
To further expand on the above, a variety of NPC dispositions and behaviors should contribute toward the value of long-term diagonal progression within the dungeon.
Lottery spawns would always drop at least 1 piece of T3-T4 gear, and have an increased chance of dropping a T5 collectible item.
In addition to the above, lottery spawns would drop a single teleportation rune.
X amount of teleportation runes can be consumed to summon a gate-keeper in the final room of each wing. These runes would be tiered for each wing.
Item quality would not necessitate "ilevel" or "gearscore" implementation. A human being would determine what loot belongs in each tier.
You could limit the availability of this dungeon by gating it behind faction or using it as a "dynamic event" that utilizes various world triggers that can open/close it.
The 7'th wing would contain a wise sage in the final room that offers to teach adventurers a powerful spell or ability.
Rather than a teleportation device, the final room of the 7'th wing would contain a summoning portal.
In order to activate the summoning portal, players would need to consume a full set of teleportation runes from each wing. (7 sets total.)
Activating the summoning portal would call forth an epic raid boss, tuned for a raid that is completely outfitted in T4 gear.
Defeating the final boss would affect temporary change into the world of Terminus.
The final boss could have it's own unique set of prestigious items. (The only vertical progression associated with this dungeon is a single spell or ability acquired from the Wise Sage.)
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/contentsguide/deepdungeon/
This sounds basically like the Palace of the Dead from FFXIV.
I'm not really a fan as something like this creates an illusion of content by stripping your gear and making you grind for special gear that only works in that dungeon in order to progress through that dungeon...
I would much rather see "real content" being put out than have something like this.
Parts of this post also remind me of the Xennumet dungeon in Vanguard.
It was a somewhat secret dungeon, with an entrance on an island in NW Qalia. Inside the dungeon, your normal gear wasn't strong enough to defeat the boss. Instead, you wore a special powersuit with unique abilities. The suits gave you like 10x health and damage. The suits also had jet packs and there were powerup crystals you could pick up to do even more damage to the boss.
It was a fun and unique encounter. It definitely meets your idea of having a mini-game inside of an MMO.
I see this as like "ring events" but on a much larger scale.
I liked "ring events" when they were not broken- haha-as they existed as a event within a live zone (no instance).
Heh, this reminds me of the old Sheherazad card in Magic: the Gathering which I LOVED for the "do whut, naw?. sheeeoot" factor.
While your idea does copy a bit from other games, the idea of roguelike content being added to an MMO has always struck me as a cool idea. It's a great past time and is one of those things that doesn't get old as long as there is a bit of matenance done to it every once in a while (adding some new floors, bosses, ect). It shouldn't be a copy from other games that have done it, but adding a roguelike dungeon has always been well recieved (once it's been balanced).
This reminds me of Dungeoneering from Runescape which was one of the coolest features they added in my opinion.
I wouldn't want this in place of an expansion or other content, but if the devs came out one day and were like, "so we wanted to try something different and have a bit of fun with this, here you go, tell us how you like it", I'd totally be down for this kind of thing to be added to the game as a minigame or limited time event. Adding hard to obtain, limited bragging rights always gives the competitive/hardcore players something to do.
Bazgrim said:It's a pretty cool idea but I think it has no place in Pantheon. It would come across as very gimmicky. While it has some interesting aspects, it definitely has a lot of flaws, as you say. And I think in this case, the bad definitely outweighs the good.
Well let's talk about some of the pros and cons.
Pros:
1) Can be used as a plat sink
2) Completely optional dungeon that only provides real in-game rewards if you beat the boss or collect all 20 artifacts. The dungeon itself has it's own unique progression and can be scaled throughout the entire lifespan of the game.
3) Massive replay value. Every dungeon experience would be unique due to each floor being 100% randomized.
4) Provides the foundation for an epic side quest that could take hundreds of hours to complete.
5) Can recycle other in game content such as NPC's, loot tables, or even dungeon art.
6) Did I mention replay value? If I had my choice of completing monotonous daily quests or taking multiple cracks at advancing in this dungeon, I'd take the latter all day every day.
7) In line with PRotF's risk vs reward tenet. In combat rezzes could be allowed, but once the group wipes, it's game over, gotta start from the beginning again. There would still be a sense of progression though because every T2 or T3 piece of loot acquired provides a permanent edge on future entries.
8) Truly sets the tone for the word "epic" because the dungeon would be designed to be extremely challenging. No guide could be made to trivialize the difficulty due to the nature of how every floor would be randomly generated.
9) Can cure bordom for the most hardcore and time invested players. Unlike traditional dungeons/raids that require lockouts to prevent rapid progression, this zone can be entered as many times as a player would want as long as they can afford to pay the entry fee. The T2-T4 loot would just need to be really rare, so rare, for instance, that acquiring a single T3 item for one player of your group would be considered a lucky run even if you manage to get fairly deep into the dungeon. Hardcore farmers/botters wouldn't have any incentive to over farm this zone because they wouldn't really be able to generate a profit. If they are lucky enough to get one of the 20 artifacts, they could sell it, but since every member of the group has their own entry fee, and how rare the artifacts are, there is no way they would be able to net a consistent profit over the long run.
10) Even after completing the dungeon, there would still be great replay value. Let's say there is a tank that has been farming the dungeon for 2 years. By that point he'd probably have a full set of T3 loot and be highly desirable for every other group in the game that wants to run the dungeon. This tank could sell his services, kind of like a mercenary. Or he could cycle other players into the group that have yet to beat the dungeon. Just keep in mind that this doesen't equal a free pass. Once you get to the deeper levels, players without any T2 or T3 loot will not be able to carry their weight.
Cons:
1) It would require a pretty massive investment of time/design/tuning to get this right.
2) The dungeon would have to be completely instanced.
3) Most players will not have a realistic chance of completing this dungeon due to how the progression works and the requirement of an entry fee for every visit.
I'm sure there are more cons but honestly for me, I think #1 would be the biggest issue. This would be an epic endeavor to pull off correctly but I think the potential reward is amazing. I've talked about this with several of my gamer friends that have accumulated over the years, and many have already said that a dungeon like this would potentially be their favorite part of the entire game. Some even mentioned how a concept like this could be a game in and of itself that they would gladly play for years. There is just this truly epic sensation that can be experienced when you're talking about a 100 floor dungeon with it's own unique progression system built into it. And for it to be a mere optional side quest in the beautiful world of Terminus ... how many people do you think would want to give the game a try just to get in on this? If the developers could justify applying some of their resources to a project like this, I think we have a winning recipe.
If any of you have ever played Lufia 2, please comment on this thread. It was a great game but for me personally, the 100 floor dungeon was by far the coolest part of that game. For those of you who haven't played it, I can see how this could seem overwhelming or impossible to pull off. But for those who did experience that dungeon, I really want to hear what you think. Could this concept be pulled of in an MMO? How excited would you be to experience it?
I'm just thinking outside the box here. Instead of looking back on the awesome features/components of other MMO's and wondering how they could be implemented into Pantheon, why not look to the good old fashioned RPG's that came out before MMO's? This 100 floor dungeon is just 1 example. The card game from Final Fantasy 8 is another. The Bazaar from Final Fantasy 7 is another (how cool would it be to have a zone like that in an MMO? A casino hub with tons of mini games, maybe a daily lottery, horse races, etc) ... The hunting/fishing system or "Township" model from Breath of Fire 2 ... the unique combos from Chrono Trigger that depended on which players you had in your group (Warrior/Monk/Cleric for example could have a tri force ability that can only be used when those 3 particular classes are grouped together). These are some of my favorite memories from the many RPG's that I've played.
I could see how some of these things could be implemented into an MMO and I'd really appreciate the perspective of anybody who has played these games and knows what I'm talking about. I loved the card game in FF8 and I would LOVE to see something like that in Pantheon. It could be a real gem in regards to the social immersion aspect of this game, and still be tied into other in-game mechanics. For example, whenever you defeat a mob, you have a % chance to acquire the card for that NPC. The cards have no value outside of the mini-game but it just adds another twist to the game that people might love. I can literally imagine people being just as excited about looting a rare card for this mini-game when they beat a boss as they would be for looting a rare piece of armor.
Temmi said:http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/playguide/contentsguide/deepdungeon/
This sounds basically like the Palace of the Dead from FFXIV.
I'm not really a fan as something like this creates an illusion of content by stripping your gear and making you grind for special gear that only works in that dungeon in order to progress through that dungeon...
I would much rather see "real content" being put out than have something like this.
Thank you for sharing this link. Honestly, it seems like FFXIV ripped that concept straight from Lufia 2, just as I am recommending. They obviously added their own twists and I'm disappointed to hear that you didn't really enjoy the experience in that game. I'm still confident that something like this could work though. Maybe they didn't make it difficult enough? And as far as you saying you'd rather see "real" content ... this content would be very "real." I mentioned how beating it should be considered a truly epic accomplishment, or how collecting all 20 artifacts could yield a very desirable reward. Maybe you get a trinket like a manastone. There is no reason that something like this wouldn't be considered "real" content. The point here is to allow the hardcore players to have access to a dungeon that they can farm as much as their heart desires but in doing so, it won't make them vastly over-powered in the real world. Eventually though, for the most dedicated of dungeon crawlers, they COULD acquire a reward that would be amazing outside of the dungeon. It doesen't necessarily have to be the best gear in the game. It could be an awesome mount. It could be a permanent waiver of all fees associated with doing business on that tribes conveniently placed AH. It could unlock a special spire, druid ring, or mage tower that would super convenient. It could be an additional class spell. It could be a 3'rd trinket slot. Hell ... instead of having to fight the boss at floor 100, maybe you just set it free, and now the server has progressed in the sense that there is a new overworld boss running around that otherwise would never be there if someone didn't complete this impossible dungeon. Again ... this content could be very "real" and I'm not sure why you would be assuming otherwise except if maybe FFXIV failed in how they pulled it off.
Ignoring the huge dev time required for an arguably "limited" payoff... If it has to be instanced, then I think it's a deal breaker.
What I described in Vanguard was not instanced, but it did mean that only one group could complete the event at a time. Is there not a way it could be created w/o the use of instances?
This basically sounds like a small version of what Crowfall has been talking about doing. Their game touts "clearing the playing field" to start anew and fresh. It can be refreshing to do this kind of thing and that's especially true in an MMO where things can get stagnant. However, I think there are great similarities between what you propose and what can be done with horizontal progression through the atmosphere system already in development.
1) Your current gear can't take you through the new content.
2) The gear you're collecting is primarily for clearing this new content specifically.
3) You're experiencing a new world/area physically and aesthetically.
4) The level of challenge is controlled by having a newly prescribed gear-content path.
So, if they introduce a poison world and you need to collect all new poison gear because you have none, does this not produce the same effect? The primary difference is that with your suggestion the slate would be wiped entirely clean, whereas in the environmental system, some (entirely up to the devs) carryover remains.
If you take your system and extend it out to all content, then you effectively have a Crowfall-esque multi-world system, but PvE instead of PvP/RvR. I think it's certainly a valid approach, but I would personally prefer if we see more focus put on horizontal progression via the environmental system.
Personally, I love the idea. While you would spent an insane amount of time doing something that would not really increase your character in the world you would still be working towards an ultimate goal. One that wouldn't be easy and wouldn't be done by many people for a long time. It does have a lot of possible pitfalls and the time required to do this wouldn't be something I'd recommend at this point but it's definitely something doable for an expansion.
The instancing required for something like this wouldn't really be a deal breaker. Brad has stated more than once that *most* of the game would not be instanced but they would use it when it was needed. For something like this that would require a different layout every time you went in, it pretty much would need to be. The reason I say it isn't a big deal is because in this you wouldn't be gaining experience, aa's, or anything really. Outside of the T4 things that imo should be nothing more than artifacts found in the top 25 floors, there would be no way to really "farm" for plat here. The reasons to come here other than getting the ultimate goal of collecting all of the artifacts would be minimal. This essentially adds a game inside of the game.
Only thing I would add is easier access. By that I mean this is not something that could be done in a few hours and having to start over each time at floor 1 wouldn't really help anything. Add in the ability to start on the last floor visited. In order to stop the "carrying" and just helping people by passing most of the dungeon I'd suggest doing the highest floor of the lowest completed person. What I mean is this:
Tank completed floor 80
All DPS have done floor 80
Cleric replacement has only done floor 20
So this group would have the option to start on floor 20 or 10. This way you can't boost others to by pass half the place but you if you keep the same group running it then you can essentially keep working on it. Give the option to start on floors below you at a multiple of 10 so you can farm the areas you want to farm to try for gear. Mainly because there will come points where you just can not go forward and if that point is floor 70 then going back to 1 and doing it all over just to try for gear that you may not get would become a hassle to some. Especially when we are talking hours and hours of time that you are essentially not working on your character.
So to add this idea to the Pantheon, all you need is:
- 4 tiers of unique armor drops, specifically useable only in this area.
- an instanced dungeon with 100 floors of increasingly difficult content. Each floor of which is randomly generated.
- 20 collectible relics (I'm unsure of their function?)
Am I missing anything? This doesn't sound very "mini" to me. It's sounds more like the size of a separate game. Like how H1Z1 released their King of the Kill rule server as a standalone game on steam, which started out as a "mini-game".
Enitzu said:Personally, I love the idea. While you would spent an insane amount of time doing something that would not really increase your character in the world you would still be working towards an ultimate goal. One that wouldn't be easy and wouldn't be done by many people for a long time. It does have a lot of possible pitfalls and the time required to do this wouldn't be something I'd recommend at this point but it's definitely something doable for an expansion.
The instancing required for something like this wouldn't really be a deal breaker. Brad has stated more than once that *most* of the game would not be instanced but they would use it when it was needed. For something like this that would require a different layout every time you went in, it pretty much would need to be. The reason I say it isn't a big deal is because in this you wouldn't be gaining experience, aa's, or anything really. Outside of the T4 things that imo should be nothing more than artifacts found in the top 25 floors, there would be no way to really "farm" for plat here. The reasons to come here other than getting the ultimate goal of collecting all of the artifacts would be minimal. This essentially adds a game inside of the game.
Only thing I would add is easier access. By that I mean this is not something that could be done in a few hours and having to start over each time at floor 1 wouldn't really help anything. Add in the ability to start on the last floor visited. In order to stop the "carrying" and just helping people by passing most of the dungeon I'd suggest doing the highest floor of the lowest completed person. What I mean is this:
Tank completed floor 80
All DPS have done floor 80
Cleric replacement has only done floor 20
So this group would have the option to start on floor 20 or 10. This way you can't boost others to by pass half the place but you if you keep the same group running it then you can essentially keep working on it. Give the option to start on floors below you at a multiple of 10 so you can farm the areas you want to farm to try for gear. Mainly because there will come points where you just can not go forward and if that point is floor 70 then going back to 1 and doing it all over just to try for gear that you may not get would become a hassle to some. Especially when we are talking hours and hours of time that you are essentially not working on your character.
I like the idea of being able to save progress so that the entire dungeon doesen't need to be completed in a single run. If your group makes it to level 50 but it gets late and people need to sleep, you can save your progress by leaving the zone. When tomorrow comes around your group could resume their dungeon crawl right where they left off. What I am not in favor of though is permanently unlocking the deeper levels. Every single entry should be a massive adventure and making a group start over at level 1 after a wipe is the only way to balance risk vs reward for this dungeon. In combat rezzes would be acceptable, but once the group wipes, your instance is over. The devs would have to make sure there is no way for a healer to sit outside of group and rez everybody after a wipe.
The idea behind this is that while this is a massive commitment of time, you ARE working on your character. Collecting all 20 artifacts or making it to level 100 would yield an amazing reward that could be used in the regular game. It's gonna take a long time to get either of those final rewards but for those dedicated enough to follow through with it, there would be a truly epic sense of achievement. One idea that might be a fair compromise to your point is that when you get to levels 50, 75, or 100, you permanently unlock a special boss instance that can be farmed once per week. This helps with overall progression. By getting to level 50, you unlock a special instanced boss that has a guaranteed T2 item drop. Level 75 instance would be a guaranteed T3 drop. After getting to level 100, instead of fighting a super hard boss at the end (this would be a huge headeache when you inevitably wipe) you instead unlock a special instance of the boss that when killed has a 1 week lockout. This allows players a chance to actually learn the encounter without the insane death penalty and for the devs to be be able to tune it appropriately. You want it be very hard and with the instance reset penalty, it would be impossible for a group to get any real practice or rhythm on the encounter since you would only get 1 chance to fight it every time you make it to the 100th floor. So that would be a great compromise. Get to level 50 the first time and now your group gets a surefire T2 loot piece added to their loot pool every week (still have to beat the level 50 instanced boss every week). Get to level 75 and your group gets a guaranteed T3 piece(same restrictions as level 50 version). Making it to that sweet 100 though ... the ultimate achievement, well, I guess it should just be epic and I'll leave it at that.
Wellspring said:So to add this idea to the Pantheon, all you need is:
- 4 tiers of unique armor drops, specifically useable only in this area.
- an instanced dungeon with 100 floors of increasingly difficult content. Each floor of which is randomly generated.
- 20 collectible relics (I'm unsure of their function?)Am I missing anything? This doesn't sound very "mini" to me. It's sounds more like the size of a separate game. Like how H1Z1 released their King of the Kill rule server as a standalone game on steam, which started out as a "mini-game".
Yeah, I mentioned that the resources required to pull something like this off would be extreme and thus the most likely barrier to getting it done. We know that there are different pledge amounts ... one being if you pledge 10k, someone can help design a dungeon or raid. I think a concept like this would be so amazing that the community would come together and make pledges to make it happen. If Brad came on here right now and said "Okay Pantheon Community, if you can raise 25k, we'll add this into our pipeline and you'll see it in-game when it's released." what do you think would happen? I get that it's a massive undertaking that would probably end up delaying the game and nobody really wants that, but if the community could provide the resources to get something like this done ... well ... would either party be interested?
Oh, and the T4 item drops are not useable in the dungeon. The T4 loot is considered an artifact and has no impact on anything in the dungeon. Collecting all 20 pieces would provide a real-game reward ... like I said the possibilities are endless. It could be a mount, powerful spell, 3'rd trinket slot unlock (assuming you already have 2), gear, or a combination of these things or who knows what the devs might decide is fair.
And I'm sorry if I ever used the word mini. Nothing about this dungeon would be mini. It's massive, just like the sense of accomplishment people would have when they collect all the artifacts or make it to floor 100.
oneADseven said:Wellspring said:So to add this idea to the Pantheon, all you need is:
- 4 tiers of unique armor drops, specifically useable only in this area.
- an instanced dungeon with 100 floors of increasingly difficult content. Each floor of which is randomly generated.
- 20 collectible relics (I'm unsure of their function?)Am I missing anything? This doesn't sound very "mini" to me. It's sounds more like the size of a separate game. Like how H1Z1 released their King of the Kill rule server as a standalone game on steam, which started out as a "mini-game".
Yeah, I mentioned that the resources required to pull something like this off would be extreme and thus the most likely barrier to getting it done. We know that there are different pledge amounts ... one being if you pledge 10k, someone can help design a dungeon or raid. I think a concept like this would be so amazing that the community would come together and make pledges to make it happen. If Brad came on here right now and said "Okay Pantheon Community, if you can raise 25k, we'll add this into our pipeline and you'll see it in-game when it's released." what do you think would happen? I get that it's a massive undertaking that would probably end up delaying the game and nobody really wants that, but if the community could provide the resources to get something like this done ... well ... would either party be interested?
Oh, and the T4 item drops are not useable in the dungeon. The T4 loot is considered an artifact and has no impact on anything in the dungeon. Collecting all 20 pieces would provide a real-game reward ... like I said the possibilities are endless. It could be a mount, powerful spell, 3'rd trinket slot unlock (assuming you already have 2), gear, or a combination of these things or who knows what the devs might decide is fair.
And I'm sorry if I ever used the word mini. Nothing about this dungeon would be mini. It's massive, just like the sense of accomplishment people would have when they collect all the artifacts or make it to floor 100.
I agree that this would probably be better as a standalone game. Even if the resources were there, I'm just not a huge fan of any form of "a game within a game"... I'd rather keep things streamlined. The main gripes I have with your idea is the instancing, the randomization of each floor, and the fact that some items have literally no use outside that dungeon. For me, a good compromise would be something like the Tower of Frozen Shadow in EQ where there are 7 different floors and each floor gets more difficult the higher you go. The goal on each floor is simple: find the key to open the door to the next floor. Each floor introduces new mobs and mechanics, but it still functions as a "regular" static open world zone. You can spend days just in that zone, but the whole time it still feels like you're playing the same game.
Bazgrim said:oneADseven said:Wellspring said:So to add this idea to the Pantheon, all you need is:
- 4 tiers of unique armor drops, specifically useable only in this area.
- an instanced dungeon with 100 floors of increasingly difficult content. Each floor of which is randomly generated.
- 20 collectible relics (I'm unsure of their function?)Am I missing anything? This doesn't sound very "mini" to me. It's sounds more like the size of a separate game. Like how H1Z1 released their King of the Kill rule server as a standalone game on steam, which started out as a "mini-game".
Yeah, I mentioned that the resources required to pull something like this off would be extreme and thus the most likely barrier to getting it done. We know that there are different pledge amounts ... one being if you pledge 10k, someone can help design a dungeon or raid. I think a concept like this would be so amazing that the community would come together and make pledges to make it happen. If Brad came on here right now and said "Okay Pantheon Community, if you can raise 25k, we'll add this into our pipeline and you'll see it in-game when it's released." what do you think would happen? I get that it's a massive undertaking that would probably end up delaying the game and nobody really wants that, but if the community could provide the resources to get something like this done ... well ... would either party be interested?
Oh, and the T4 item drops are not useable in the dungeon. The T4 loot is considered an artifact and has no impact on anything in the dungeon. Collecting all 20 pieces would provide a real-game reward ... like I said the possibilities are endless. It could be a mount, powerful spell, 3'rd trinket slot unlock (assuming you already have 2), gear, or a combination of these things or who knows what the devs might decide is fair.
And I'm sorry if I ever used the word mini. Nothing about this dungeon would be mini. It's massive, just like the sense of accomplishment people would have when they collect all the artifacts or make it to floor 100.
I agree that this would probably be better as a standalone game. Even if the resources were there, I'm just not a huge fan of any form of "a game within a game"... I'd rather keep things streamlined. The main gripes I have with your idea is the instancing, the randomization of each floor, and the fact that some items have literally no use outside that dungeon. For me, a good compromise would be something like the Tower of Frozen Shadow in EQ where there are 7 different floors and each floor gets more difficult the higher you go. The goal on each floor is simple: find the key to open the door to the next floor. Each floor introduces new mobs and mechanics, but it still functions as a "regular" static open world zone. You can spend days just in that zone, but the whole time it still feels like you're playing the same game.
I don't envision the dungeon as a game within the game. It's just content within the game, and honestly, the content shouldn't be THAT difficult to create. It's not like a bunch of lore or quests needs to go into this. It's just 100 floors of hell that needs to be traversed. The in dungeon experience shouldn't be that much different than what you experience in the rest of the game; you would be using the same abilities, fighting the same mobs, etc. The only big difference is how the item progression works. I think it would be pretty fun to see fire drakes on floor 50 and then 51 you see ice golems. On another visit you might fight samurais and hyrdas on those levels. Content from other areas of the game could be recycled and used to populate this dungeon whether its npcs, loot, dungeon design, etc.
I understand that the epic scale of this dungeon makes it seem like it should be it's own entity, but I'm not trying to start a new video game here. I want to see Pantheon take all of the hard work that they put into the game and be able to recycle those resources in a cost effective way that can also provide a massive amount of replay value for anybody that is interested in dungeon crawls ... and last I checked, I think most of us love them. I believe in VR and think Pantheon is going to bring back the good 'ol days of MMO experience for me and many others. This was simply an idea that I felt I should share because without a doubt, there would be a ton of people that would love something like this. When I originally played Vanguard, the lack of end game content in the beginning phase was extremely impactful. It was hard to keep my guild together. We farmed the one desert raid zone (Rahz Inkur I think) as much as it could be, did Temple of Tehatamani, the harder group stuff, and even killed the overworld contested (they dropped item vouchers or something at the time, nothing even tangible) ... and we even built a guild castle which was pretty fun. But after several months, people started to quit. There wasn't enough challenge. Before the first true raid instance ever came out, the majority of our guild stopped playing and we decided to go back to EQ2. It was extremely disappointing because I really enjoyed Vanguard and wanted nothing more than to raid in that game.
At the end of the day, a lot of people are naturally going to grind to 50 as fast as possible and try to "beat the game." By creating a dungeon like this, you're implementing something that could be extremely fun to progress through that won't mess up the natural progression that the developers have planned for their game, and also provide a massive amount of dungeon group/raid content for the masses that really shouldn't be that taxing on overall resources. This is getting a huge bang for minimal buck IMO.
Running the same instances over and over again can be extremely monotonous and not very gratifying. This dungeon can alleviate that repetitiveness by being randomized, and also offer a long-term progression concept for the game that isn't directly tied into the regular game. It's giving the most hardcore people something to do instead of complaining about how they have all the hardest content on farm.
Landbert said: The idea sounds interesting. Maybe it could be extended. So that the dungeon gear is resettet every time. And the dungeon should be level independent and without any entry restrictions. Now the high level and well geared pre alpha veteran could play this dungeon with his friend who entered the game 1 year later. Only their experience and skill differs, but otherwise they have equal conditions. Maybe a good dungeon for the new players to learn something from the veterans. Only problems I see are how to handle the rewards you get for outside of the dungeon. The new player should not get to strong loot and the veteran should have something to go in the dungeon for. Next problem is the development time to make such a dungeon. Last problem I see are the need of instancing. But VR stated in some cases instances will be ok. So this maybe is no real problem. Nice idea, but not sure if it has its place in pantheon?
I guess we'll have to see! I did a little more reserach on the Dungeon of the Dead or whatever it was called in FFXIV, and it's crazy how similar it is to the vision I had for Pantheon. It honestly sounds pretty cool but I think it can be improved upon. I guess it just depends on what type of demand there would be for this type of gameplay experience. The more people who chime in either for or against the better.
I recently found a comprehensive guide on the 100 floor dungeon from Lufia 2, which inspired my idea. It's a really really long guide, and not all of the features would translate over to an MMO. I feel that it's worth a read, though, for anybody who hasn't experienced The Ancient Cave from Lufia 2. It's widely regarded as the most epic dungeon of all time, in any game. It's my understanding that FFXIV recently created a Dungeon of the Dead which is somewhat similar. I haven't played FFXIV in a long time so I can't really comment on how it worked in that game but I will say that I think this idea has very strong potential. I'd like to quote an excerpt from the introduction section of the guide that might encourage you to have a read:
When Lufia II -- Rise of the Sinistrals hit the gaming world in February of
1995, it immediately became an immensely popular game and, in the eyes of many,
an instant classic. Although hampered by two-dimensional characters and the
limited graphics quality of the day, the game was light-hearted, rich with
puzzles ranging from the simple to the insanely difficult, and -- well -- just
plain fun to play. As is the case with many RPG's, though, the replay value of
this game is directly proportional to the quality of its side quests. The
Ancient Cave side quest of this game is one of the most famous and challenging
ever created, and it is one of the primary reasons that gamers are still
playing this game nearly 10 years later. Often imitated (in Parasite Eve and
FFX-II for example) but never duplicated, the Ancient Cave stands alone as an
RPG icon -- lengthy and challenging without being boring or repetitive. Or
repetitive. Or boring. In fact, this is one case where a side quest within an
RPG actually can require more time to complete than the main quest of the game
itself!
Here is a link to the guide: https://www.gamefaqs.com/snes/588451-lufia-ii-rise-of-the-sinistrals/faqs/36182
Here is the way I look at something like this...
So how many of you remember "Lost Dungeons of Norrath" expansion in EQ? I actually really liked it a lot, but of course I was a "puller" so always had an important role. It was basically new dungeons around the world, that a good group could clear in an hour or so... Varying difficulty levels. Each one you cleared, it would earn you faction which you could spend points on various unique items, ultimately getting an amazing stat gem in the end. Once the next expansion came out with better gear, NO ONE played this expansion ever again.
My question was, "why on earth did they not make it to where you reach the end game in LDoN expansion, you get one of the best charm items in the game, period. It would always evolve on every new expansion and remain the best you can get. Now this expansion continues to be something of interest for players to level through. Everyone has this on their agends because most of us want really good items you can earn. I just don't get it...
So back to 187's idea... I am okay with huge time sink that is fun and full of achievments, but I like to see it circle back to the meaning of the game somehow. So the end result is something sought after in the progression of Pantheon in general. So when a new player comes along, they see this unique dungeon as a necessary stepping stone to get one of the better things in the game. To me, the trick is keeping things special for the history of the game, if it was a large time sink to get. So when a future expansion comes out, consideration needs to be granted to these items or feats to keep them special or evolving for the players that earned them. Just saddens me greatly when unique items become obsolete so quickly.
I think the idea can be expanded upon with every expansion. Just add X amount of floors to the dungeon per expansion. They would still need to progress through the original 100 levels to get there. I think a system like this can be built to last through the lifetime of the game. I think there are a couple of ways to offer regular-game rewards too, such as collecting all 20 artifacts, or beating the final boss -- both would be extremely difficult though, and I'd like to see a reward that would match the challenge. Other than that, all rewards from the dungeon would be exclusive to the dungeon itself. Most would disappear after leaving the dungeon, but some would be retained. Great replay value, super fun and challenging content, a large progression side quest that doesen't interfere with the regular progression of the game ... and only 2 potential rewards (this can increase as the game evolves) that can be used in the regular game. This could all be balanced as necessary but the scope of a dungeon like this could withstand the test of time, in my opinion. I would play the hell out of it, for sure. I think a raid version would also be pretty awesome and would give the super hardcore crowd something to do for a loooooooooooong time.
Pyye said:Here is the way I look at something like this...
So how many of you remember "Lost Dungeons of Norrath" expansion in EQ? I actually really liked it a lot, but of course I was a "puller" so always had an important role. It was basically new dungeons around the world, that a good group could clear in an hour or so... Varying difficulty levels. Each one you cleared, it would earn you faction which you could spend points on various unique items, ultimately getting an amazing stat gem in the end. Once the next expansion came out with better gear, NO ONE played this expansion ever again.
My question was, "why on earth did they not make it to where you reach the end game in LDoN expansion, you get one of the best charm items in the game, period. It would always evolve on every new expansion and remain the best you can get. Now this expansion continues to be something of interest for players to level through. Everyone has this on their agends because most of us want really good items you can earn. I just don't get it...
So back to 187's idea... I am okay with huge time sink that is fun and full of achievments, but I like to see it circle back to the meaning of the game somehow. So the end result is something sought after in the progression of Pantheon in general. So when a new player comes along, they see this unique dungeon as a necessary stepping stone to get one of the better things in the game. To me, the trick is keeping things special for the history of the game, if it was a large time sink to get. So when a future expansion comes out, consideration needs to be granted to these items or feats to keep them special or evolving for the players that earned them. Just saddens me greatly when unique items become obsolete so quickly.
One such item was the Pulsating Gem of the Feerrott from Everquest 2. It was a once per server artifact item. It was awarded to the first guild to clear the final boss in the Spirits of the Lost raid. I got it on my character, and it was a pretty decent DPS buff in T5. After T5 though, the item was almost worthless. It gave +6 swimming and "fish vision" but I don't ever remember anything from the item being useful. It also gave water breathing but there were plenty of other items that did the same thing, including cheap consumables. I had it on my hotbar to swap in and use the clicky effect (then swap out because there were better handcrafted trinkets available that actually had stats) but it added maybe 2-3 DPS when I was doing over 1k. Perfect example of a major sought after item ... so epicly rare that it literally drops one time per server, but it became virtually irrelevant after T5. The worst part is, I only had a couple month window where I could use it, because SotL was a raid added not too long before the T6 expansion came out. Was such a big letdown that they didn't continue improving the item over time. Here is a link of it: http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Pulsing_Gem_of_the_Feerrott
Well taking on an aspect of older rpg. We know there will be factions and what not. What if completion % gave something towards that faction be it in growth of building. Not necessarily something the Player gets in his/her hands but something that produces livelihood of faction in a persistent world that is forever growing.